Joanna Lannister Shaped Her Family's Legacy, But Was She A Victim Or Villain? 

The concept of the idealized versions of these women vs the reality is interesting. Joanna, Elia, Lyanna, their deaths all had impacts that didn’t necessarily have to do with how they were in life. That moment in the show when Robert tells Cersei he can’t even remember what Lyanna looked like despite her being one of the catalysts for Robert in the war is an example. Fascinating through line across the series.

The fact that we don't know anything about her and yet she has such impact in the story is insane. And I'll never stop saying this: Ellia was too good for Rhaegar!!!

It's notable that Jaime and Cersei began their experimentation together at a very young age, and while Johanna was still alive. The house was messed up well before she died.

I think that she was very likely the female version of Tywin, and what I mean by that is that she was more like Marjorie on the surface, but gave advice a lot more like what Tywin himself would have done in private. She also likely bolstered his confidence and belief in himself. She may have been appearing more gentle than Tywin, but she only did it for a purpose.

I think that Joanna and Tywin, formed the 1-2 punch that helped make house Lannister feared again. Medieval noble couples would often use the stereotypes of their sexes to explain actions. Joanna’s vicious side or ideas could be expressed through her husband, and the softer, less brutal actions that might make Tywin seem weak could be explained through Joanna’s influence. Joanna might have told Aerys to go sit on the sharp part of the iron throne when he tried it on, and that might have been a great moment of attraction for Tywin. I do think they loved each other and I do think her death did throw the Lannisters off kilter. If they all loved each other (not in the Jaime/Cersei way) and stuck together, it would have made them unstoppable. Ps I think Tywin is VERY disappointed in Cersei, because she’s lacks the skill, intelligence and common sense that his wife possessed

Joanna was most likely had a tempering effect on Tywin. Multiple Lannisters, notablely Kevan and Genna agree on that. It should be noted that the highest praise Tywin can offer a person is allow them to provide council to him. His closed personality prevents many people to get close to him and for Tywin to seek our receive council from an individual is the mark of the highest trust from him. That aspect is probably from watching the ruin Tytos Lannister was bringing to the Lannister family, and drove Tywin to value the opposite of Tytos. It can be speculated that Joanna at least carried the shrewdness and ambition that Tywin values, just as Kevan did, and Tyrion did prior to the wedding to Sansa. Tyrion's and Tywin's mutual hatred of each other was able to be put aside with administration of the war since both are extremely pragmatic. Tywin definitely seemed to favor Tyrion and value him far more than Cersei simply by Tywin investing the authority of Hand to Tyrion.

I’m definitely stealing this idea of a dead idealized woman who is actually secretly ruthless and cruel but hidden by the veil of ideal womanhood is definitely an idea I’m going to incorporate into my writing.

I always pictured her to be more like Olenna, Queen of Thorns. She was part of Queen Rhealla's household at court before and after she was wed to Tywin. She had to have known how to play the game at least well enough to have survived that. She was close friends with the Queen and the reigning Princess of Dorne. That puts her right at the centre of court. She supposedly wanted to wed Cersei and Jamie to Princess Elia and baby-red viper. Jamie and Elia are a great match and cersei/oberyn is a little less so. She was probably aiming to have betrothed Jamie to Elia, taking away the princess as an option for Prince Rhaegar and heightening Cersei's chances for a royal match. She knew how to use her soft power, probably subtly clearing the way for Tywin to do what he wanted.

Joanna was like Margaray tyrell. Everyone was pleasing to her nature. But in reality she was a master in playing game of thrones.

I've thought this as well since that one quote about her "Lord Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin."

Tywin not re-marrying is really interesting now that you point it out. He was so obsessed with legacy but he only has 1 son he considered worthy of it from his first wife. You'd think his desire for more would overcome his grief but it didn't. Alternate theory: maybe Tywin just hates women so much he can't stand the thought of marrying another one. And the reason he doesn't say anything about his first wife isnt grief but because he truly has nothing to say. Wild guess 😅 nevermind.

I think if we also consider Shae as a very canny and pragmatic woman and assume that’s Tywin’s ‘type’ this idea makes a lot more sense

Probably the most interesting thing about Joanna to me is her friendship with the reigning princess of Dorne. Or maybe it was just her carefully cultivating an alliance? Either way it was a smart connection to make given how increasingly antagonistic Aerys was the Lannisters. If they ever needed to fight against the Targaryens, it’s smart putting together the house with the most money + the house with a proven track record of foiling house Targaryen in war. But yeah it also means if she was as openly arrogant and ruthless as Tywin , it would have been hard to maintain that friendship. We don’t really hear about Tywin having friendships. So Joanna can at least be diplomatic in ways he can’t.

I don't think it's plausible that Joanna is similar to Tywin, because Tywin despises the character in the plot most similar to him--Tyrion. As you've pointed out in another video, Tywin's accusation that Tyrion possesses only low cunning is hypocritical, as he himself uses low cunning more than anything else. I think if we consider Tywin's desperate ego, it's likely that Joanna was remarkable to him because she was good at making him feel powerful--much in the same way that Shae makes Tyrion feel powerful. This hypothesis is reinforced by the fact that Tywin "claimed" Shae after sentencing Tyrion to death. Shae was very clever, but showed it mainly in the way she was able to read men and deliver exactly the right snarky comment to make fun of them without tearing them down. Shae kept Tyrion on his toes with her wit without making him feel stupid, massaging his ego by smoothing over his insecurities and making him feel like a giant. I think it's likely Joanna was a similar kind of woman--incredibly intelligent, with a deep understanding of Westerosi social norms, and with an uncanny ability to maneuver to positions of power without upsetting those already in power.

I think it's more somewhere in the middle. I think one of the big things about Joanna that attracted Tywin was that she had a strong will and plenty of backbone, and thus didn't take shit from him. Tywin is used to just bulldozing his way towards getting what he wants, and with Joanna, that just didn't work. In the books we have Tywin's brother, Kevan, say that while Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms as Hand, Joanna ruled him at home as his wife. Ruling a man like Tywin isn't simply done by being good and pure, you have to be a tough bitch if you want any influence over him.

I think Joanna would've had a lot of similarities to Tywin in terms of their ambition and arrogance but that Joanna was way more politically savy than Tywin and helped to temper his impulsive cruel tendencies when slighted (real or perceived) and urging a more long term approach for Lannister ambitions. I think that is what people close to him mean when they called her his closest advisor. I think had she lived she would most likely have been a much more caring parent to the Lannister children than Tywin ever was.

I’ve never been so sure they had such a perfect marriage. Who are our sources exactly? Pycelle? Genna? Both of them are biased towards him. I’ve always been of the opinion that Tywin presented the perfect image when with others (as he did in *every other aspect* of his family life) of their marriage, but behind closed doors- I can’t see such an authoritarian man being pleasant to his wife. I don’t doubt he loved her, but given she was his cousin and this a reflection of his Lannister blood, I always saw it as a possessive kind of love. If the man could sentence his son to death, he’s capable of being cruel to his wife.

I wonder how she felt about the way Tywin dealt with the Reyne-Tarbeck rebellion. If they were married then, then clearly, if she was as influential on him as you're suggesting, she had 0 problems with him going on that genocidal streak.

I like this theory. Tywin doesn't seem super-self aware though. I suppose Joanna might have embodied Tywin's self-image rather than his reality. He seems to admire a sort of pragmatic evil that fits his fan reputation but not many of his worse acts. That could fit with the idea of her being the best of him. Of course, pragmatic evil is still evil.

I really liked the analysis, there is too much of these women from the so called "The Dead Ladys Club" that sadly will never be seen, their passage through Westeros and how their actions for better or worse marked those who are still alive, leaving them looking over their shoulders as if they were haunted by their ghosts but never wanting to let them go at all, and you reminded me of a fanfic I read a long time ago where in one of the last arguments between Jaime and Cersei, he mentions their mother to bring some goodness in his sister, only for Cersei to yell at him about who Joanna Lannister really was and make Jaime think something like "they never really had hope".

I always thought of her as an enabler rather than an abuser, kinda like a 50s housewife, oblivious to the cruelty around her, or a covert narcissist.

We needed more of Joanna Lannister in some form or fashion. Any lady who can have the ridged and stern Tywin Lannister. Wrapped around her finger, is a lady I would want to me.

I fully agree with you assessment of Joanna Lannister. What I think is a great example of the likely personality she had was in a lesson that Cersei wanted instill in Sansa during the black water battle: Lord Gyles was coughing more than he was eating, Lollys Stokeworth sat hunched and shivering, and the young bride of one of Ser Lancel's knights began to weep uncontrollably. The queen commanded Maester Frenken to put her to bed with a cup of dreamwine. "Tears," she said scornfully to Sansa as the woman was led from the hall. "The woman's weapon, MY LADY MOTHER USED TO CALL THEM. The man's weapon is a sword. And that tells us all you need to know, doesn't it?" - A Clash of Kings - Sansa VI Joanna taught Cersei to use your tears to further your own agenda. This alone disproves that Joanna was this kind saintly woman who did no wrong. It makes me wonder what other toxic lessons did she teach her daughter that shaped Cersei into becoming the woman she is?

The only person Tywin ever respects and speaks to like an equal was Olenna Tyrell. I think Joanna would have the personality similar to the Queen of Thorns except she was more good at massaging Tywin’s egos while throwing witty criticisms at his mistakes than Olenna was. Considering, both Olenna and Joanna herself (and all powerful women behind the scenes in Western media) was based on the archetype of Livia Drusilla from I, Claudius by Robert Graves. According to Suetonius, “Augustus ruled the world but Livia ruled Augustus.”

I think getting the woman Aerys wanted but couldn't have was a massive ego-boost for Tywin, and probably a large part of her value to him: the ultimate trophy wife. I don't think he ever loved her for herself but only for what she could do for him. If he had, I think he'd mention her more often and in different contexts, not only when her memory is a convenient weapon to use against one of his children. If part of Joanna's value was in making Aerys continually jealous, then it would have served Tywin's purposes to keep up the appearance of them being blissfully happy together, especially when Aerys' own marriage grew worse. No way to know what their relationship was actually like behind the scenes.

Consider this, however: Tywin resents weakness in men, but strenght in women is a differently perceived concept in that world. Plus, Tywin is someone who despises being made fun of, humor to him is a reminder of Titus probably. Yet wasn't Joanna the only person said to have been able to make him laugh? I imagine her being something between Catelyn and Tyrion, a respectful and faithful wife who is a good source of stability and a partner to confide in, who always steps back and doesn't question or threaten his authority with public arguments, but also witty and capable of keeping up with Tywin in the Game of Thrones, but not enough to threaten him and shake his trust in her.

It's also interesting that Joanna has a huge impact on the series because she doesn't just inform Tywin's characterization, but also Aerys's. I was thinking specifically about how there are some superficial similarities between Joanna's time at court during King Jaehaerys's reign and Rhaegar's involvement with Lyanna at Harrenhal: 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐜𝐫𝐨𝐰𝐧 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐡𝐞𝐢𝐫 𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐫𝐨𝐧𝐞, Aerys Targaryen, 𝐝𝐞𝐬𝐢𝐫𝐞𝐝 Joanna Lannister, 𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐠𝐡 𝐡𝐞 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐦𝐚𝐫𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 Rhaella Targaryen, while Joanna 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐛𝐞𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 Tywin Lannister; 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐜𝐫𝐨𝐰𝐧 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐡𝐞𝐢𝐫 𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐫𝐨𝐧𝐞, Rhaegar Targaryen, 𝐝𝐞𝐬𝐢𝐫𝐞𝐝 Lyanna Stark, 𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐠𝐡 𝐡𝐞 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐦𝐚𝐫𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 Elia Martell, while Lyanna 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐛𝐞𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 Robert Baratheon. (also, Joanna was 14-15 when Aerys met her, just like Lyanna was 14-15 when Rhaegar met her) It gave me the idea that Aerys saw himself in his son, and he saw Joanna in Lyanna, and it played into his decision to defend Rhaegar against Brandon Stark. Before the rebellion, Aerys had a pretty bad relationship with his son; they had never been close, they were nothing alike, Aerys he was paranoid about Rhaegar conspiring to depose him, and he was probably jealous that Rhaegar had become more popular than him. But suddenly, after Rhaegar runs away with Lyanna, Aerys suddenly becomes his son's biggest champion, which was such a heel turn that I wondered why it happened. I think that as a young man, Aerys was so infatuated with Joanna that he fantasized about running away with her and leaving Rhaella, who he never wanted to be with. However, Aerys didn't want to deal with the possible consequences. Knowing that his uncle Duncan the Small was disinherited over spurning his Baratheon betrothed, having a love affair with Jenny of Oldstones, and causing a rebellion, Aerys had good reason to believe that if he compromised himself by abandoning his wife, despoiling a highborn maid, and provoking the fury of the Lannisters, Aerys's father Jaehaerys could easily disinherit him and make little Rhaegar his direct heir. So, having a choice between the throne and Joanna, Aerys chose the throne. I think that because Aerys's life was very unhappy after that and being king made him miserable, he idealized Joanna as a symbol of the happier life he could have had if he'd been allowed to follow his heart. (As an aside, I don't think Aerys cared about Joanna's wants and needs, only his own.) This is a longwinded way of saying that Aerys may have sympathised with Rhaegar loving someone he couldn't have, just like he did, and Aerys wanted to help his son escape any negative consequences, so he killed Brandon and his companions because he didn't want anyone to get in the way of Rhaegar being with the girl he loved with no downsides whatsoever, because people had stood in the way of Aerys being with Joanna and he didn't like it. Maybe Aerys wishes he could turn back time - he could have married Joanna, and burned Tywin where he stood - but he can't, so he'll burn Rickard Stark instead to feel better about it.

Tywin's attitude at the loss of Joanna is similar to Stalin's attitude to the loss of his wife. When his first wife died of typhoid he said: "This creature softened my heart of stone. She died and with her died my last warm feelings for humanity."

There's a fanfic in which Joanna didn't die, but that Tywin had her tongue ripped out and sent her to the Silent Sisters. If true, it might explain the strange way Tywin's corpse decayed so rapidly: Joanna used the knowledge she'd gained about preserving bodies to ensure that Tywin's funeral would be a noisome PR disaster. The premise of this fanfic was that Joanna had never loved Tywin, but rather would have preferred to wed Aerys as much as Aerys would have rather married her than his sister Rhaella. In this story, it was Jaime and Cersei who were secret Targaryen bastards, and Tyrion Tywin's only trueborn heir. I think the true Joanna was most probably a complicated human being, neither saint nor supervillain. If she'd lived Cersei would most likely have been schooled in politics and the art of wielding soft power. If nothing else, she'd have been a more competent ruler, which would have been a better outcome for Westeros.

So. What if Joanna was in fact someone like Narcissa Malfoy?

8:50 I absolutely agree that Tyrion is not a Targ. I like the idea of Tyrion potentially being Targ as a red herring. However, my biggest fear is that GRRM will actually make him one, as many fans see him as the 3rd head of the dragon. To me, making him a Targaryen completely undermines the commentary on his relationship with Tywin, which is that they are very similar, and that Tyrion is Tywin writ small.

my guess is that, if Joanna was more intelligent than Tywin, Tyrion would have benefited from her presence, but as an enabler of his "Lannisterness"

This is an interesting idea. I do think Joanna would be something like Cersi. Cruel and vicious but just as there are two sides to every coin; I think Joanna could be sweet and loving. Perhaps she is mirrored in every one of her children in some way. Jamie his honor (somewhat kindness), Cersi her beauty, and worst of all for Tywin her intelligence in Tyrone. This may also be why in the show Cersi is outraged at the idea that she can't be the Hand of the king to Joffery because her mother was Tywin's hand, she wasn't good enough to live up to her mother.

I think Joanna would’ve been a loving mother for the lannister children, maybe not in the healthiest way but definitely better than what they got. I don’t think Jaime would’ve ended up sleeping with Cersei at the very least which could have changed a lot for the main story. I do think Tyrion may have faired worse if he was still a dwarf though unless Joanna actually cared about him which is hit or miss. Also I binge watched Reign a few times when I was in high school so seeing Greer interpreted as Joanna was really funny.

Oh what an interesting theory! Brilliant as always friend! Yeah, I personally hate the Trope that the truly kind and loving woman tames the abusive man. The implications for real-life people are... Not good. Women shouldn't be portrayed as the morality compass for everyone else around them, and encouraging the ideology that you can change an abusive person with love is just harmful to both women and men alike. That's part of the reason why I'm not too keen on Beauty and the Beast personally. But Joanna being just as Cutthroat as Tywin would totally make sense! In death, she's the perfect "What if" projection for her children. Incidentally: My own mother lost her dad when she was about the same age as Jaime and Cersei, and she idolizes him very much as well! Even though he was an alcoholic and largely emotionally absent in his Living Years. Death has a funny way of changing our memories.

Cersei must had a lot of traits from her mother considering how much she admired the woman, and considering that she married her cousin who just recently killed two entire houses by literally drowning them in their own keeps i wouldn’t be surprised if she was just as cruel and vicious as her daughter would be later on.

Joanna quite literally learned about Jaime's and Cersei's early sexual experiments and kept it hidden from her husband in order for him not to lash out, but also took measures to prevent those to ever happen again. Plus, I highly doubt that Tywin would tolerate a leading woman as a competitor to his. I have no doubts that she was not a "ladylike, pure, good-hearted" fantasy but a resilient, powerful and smart woman who knew how to play on Tywin's idea on what a perfect lady-wife embodies. So, I'd rather believe multiple accords of Lannister family members (not Joanna's kids) who reminisced her as if she was a natural force to balance the most extreme impulses of her husband.

I wonder if Tywin saw Joanna in Cersei, or if conversly he saw her a female version of himself? How did his raising of Jaime and Cersei fracture or change based on Joanna's memory? I dunno, but it's neat to think about

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned this bc i Really like this conclusion esp bc of the line that Tywin has for Cersei in the show about him Not not trusting her bc she’s a woman but “because you’re not as smart as you think you are”, and with this context what if he was directly referencing her mother’s schemes/political acumen here

she was 100% just as ruthless as Tywin given that she supposedly "wore the pants" in the relationship. they say that Tywin ruled the kingdom but Joanna ruled tywin. i doubt tywin would be submissive to someone he considered weak. I think its possible that tywins family saw him being "kinder" when he was around her because she was taking charge of his affairs so the rest of the family saw tywin as being kinder and more docile because Joanna was little miss bossypants.

Some interesting ideas here. I have often wondered what Joanna may have been like. And what Tywin was like when she was alive. That said, I don't necessarily agree that it's only the women in this story who are idealized. The same can certainly be said for Rhaegar. And we know that people had high praise for Jon Arryn and Rickard Stark. But do we know for sure that every bit of that praise was well earned. We see how flawed all the characters are.... even the ones we think of as heroic (Ned, Jon Snow, Robb, Jorah, Oberyn, Tyrion). We also know that in our real world, people still have the belief that we should not speak ill of the dead. It wouldn't be at all surprising if George carried this truism into his writing. His characters are well- drawn and fleshed out. They feel real because they are real. For all of the outrageous fantasy GRRM has given us, the characters he created are the most real part of the story.

So it's a shame she died, because a woman so cunning and cruel, but with an incomparable ability to disguise this under a veneer of kindness, enough to fool even Tywin's sister, would have been an amazing character for the story.

I've never thought of this. Her being just like Tywin is a very interesting idea.

BTW can we get a video on Maegor the cruel, because I'm seeing alot of "Maegor Did Nothing Wrong" commentary and it would be interesting to see someone more hooked into ASoIaF to tear them a new one.

Welcome back. Love your videos. Here's the thing Joanna could have been very well loving and kind to her family. That does not automatically equal good person. Because this doesn't stop Joanna from being vicious and cruel to everyone else around her. The the Lannisters consider lower or weaker than themselves.

This is a very interesting take. I definitely strongly agree that the presence of deceased female characters as mythologies is such a gripping thematic tool. I also love that this interpretation can see both Jaime and Cersei as “unfulfilled” versions of Tywin and Joanna. If this is who Joanna really was, you have to wonder if Cersei’s life in particular would have turned out differently.

I think had Joanna survived the Lannisters would’ve been a part of the STAB alliance, likely by Lysa marrying Jaime. She was from a lesser branch of House Lannister and managed to marry the most powerful man in her region and make strong ties to the queen and the ruling princess of Dorne. You can’t tell me she wasn’t politically savvy. And I doubt any woman that could love Tywin (who was a child killer) was anywhere near innocent. At best, she was indifferent to the atrocities Tywin committed. But most likely, she was a willing partner who supported him 100%

A horrible tragic thought came to mind while watching this for the gazillionth time. If Tywin could only truly fall in love with his twin-from-another-mother, then there is a very real possibility that Joanna would have seen her innocent baby son, Tyrion, exactly as Tywin saw him. Maybe it was an accidental blessing for Tyrion that he never got to know his mother. One Tywin in anyone's life is enough. 💔😢😊

It would be interesting if Tyrion in WOW was to learn from someone who witnessed his birth reveal that before she died, she tried to murder him or showed disgust towards him as the wet nurses held him instead. That would be brutal, but it would shatter Tyrion’s fantasies of his mother, and only further his dissent into a villain in the story of Westeros.

In a way, Joanna is a strange case since we know literally nothing about except that a monster like Tywin loved her. There are a lot of idealised women in asoiaf. Where are the idealised men who are dead before their time? Loads of men die with their ambitiond unfulfilled but we at lesst know things about their agency and the like. It seems like the story thread of thid series is borne aloft by loads of women who purpose is to die tragically as motivation for others

She is neither victim or villain. Kindness isn't a weakness. She is probably stronger and intelligent than any other member of the family.

I've enjoyed all your videos, but this feels like the most original and thought-provoking so far. I doubt we'll ever know the real Joanna. Your version, however, highlights how we can't ever take for granted that a character really was as other characters imagine them.

I just want to point out how many people who say Tyrion is way too similar to Tywin to *not* be Tywin's... But then totally ignore that Jon is literally a clone of Ned.. It's a lot. Lol. I wonder why that happens.

Somewhat unrelated, but the whole concept of people having a romanticized view of someone(specifically of a woman), that ends up not aligning with reality for the most part seems like one George’s favorite tropes. I can’t quite remember where i got this from i think some youtube video about it, but either one of his favourite/very influential fantasy stories or some of his earlier/first fantasy work featured the protagonist always thinking about/bringing up an idealized version of this girl he’s gonna rescue, but she just ends up being a disappointment to him because of the mismatch between his views and reality. I vaguely remember George maybe having some early real life experience like this and that influenced him or something. This was years ago i heard about this, but the mention of people having idealized views of women like Lyanna and Joanna brought the whole thing back into my mind strongly XD (Tysha most likely fits into the category as well, though that one seems more obvious) Anyway, great video i loved it!

Okay but why am I now envisioning Joanna plotting with Tywin to bring about the fall of House Reyne? Or even being the original one to bring the idea to him and that’s where they fell in love because that would honestly be a very evil Lannister cousin couple thing to do.

It is hard to tell who she really was. Yes, there are lots of children, especially girls, in George's world, who are warped because they lost their mothers early in life - in fact Lyanna is one such.

Joanna did separate Cersei from Jaime after she caught them for being way too close to each other, so that show some good thinking on her part!

I agree with all you said about Joanna probably being highly intelligent and with a similar personality to Tywin. I think that people say Joanna "made him better" probably simply because she didn't let him be an impulsive cruel a**hole at the minor inconvenience and guided him to plan for the long term.

Wasn't Joanna friends with Rhaella Targaryen as well? That was how Eila and Cersei's mother became friends. Cause Rhaella sent her away from Kingslanding either 1) to protect her from her husband. 2) Joanna and her friendship had ended but yet Rhaella thinks of Joanna fondly while looking at Jaime seeing pieces of her within her son.

This is a late coment on this video, but rereading thr World of Ice and Fire it becomes very clear that Joanna was a very ambitious character. Prior to her mareiage to Tywin (which was likely political) and her dismissal by Rhaella from court, her relationship with Aerys was likely consensual. And she was likely very influential in Aerys’ early reign.

I always assumed Joanna was based on Blanche of Lancaster. A beautiful, rich woman who knew her worth but was kind and inspired devotion.

I do find it interesting that Tywin chose to marry another Lannister. Of course, there could be several reasons, but I do think personal compatibility was a huge part of it.

What a great take on a relatively minor character, it makes so much sense. Maybe we will get more information if we visit Casterly Rock in the next book.

Unlike Tywin, she seems to have known how to make friends. So I assume she had people skills and was more diplomatically inclined then him. She also could make him smile, so that probably means she was clever. I think that in private he might even have been the submissive one in their relationship. Not that he would always ask her advice but if she ever told him to go a different way, he would. Either way I definitely have the impression that she would have been very outspoken, in private, and that he appreciated her opinions.

Yes!!! You did a video on Joanna!!! I am fascinated by this character moreso than Lyanna or Elia. We get so little info about her and yet she casts such a large shadow on the story. I love the idea that Joanna was just as ruthless as her husband. Because she is not present anymore we only get an ideal version of what she was supposed be. GRRM loves to subvert traditional storytelling tropes and that would be a subversion showing that Tywin and Joanna were indeed equals. That’s rare and way more fascinating storytelling in my opinion.

Joanna Lannister was probably Tywin with teats! 😉 Along with having Margaery's skills in diplomacy, intrigue, manipulation, and seduction. I believe that Tywin and Joanna's love for each other was genuine, as much as it can be for a disgustingly rich and narcissistic couple. Along with that, I think Joanna would have been a great and loving mother to her three children while also being a cunning and Machiavellian political schemer in Westerosi society. She would be a villain to other houses but a heroine to her husband, children, and grandchildren. Basically, a sane and competent older version of Cersei with a far more manipulative experience and skill.

Thank you so much for doing an analysis on Joanna Lannister. She’s always been so fascinating and her grip on the current characters is so palpable. Great analysis!

Amazing video as always. It would of been supper interesting to know how the Lannister's would have faired if she was still around. Would Cerci have been as evil and overwhelmingly protective of her kids. Would Tyrian have been as ostracized if Joanna was still around. An aspect of GOT that I truly love is that It allows for readers to wonder, something that is missing from other book series. Anyway thanks for an amazing and thought provoking video and for feeding our GOT cravings until the next book gets released. :)

I love that you chose Celina Sinden as Joanna's persona

Tywin internalized a deep sense of shame and loathing regarding his father's longing to be liked by all. He saw it as a weakness beneath contempt. Martin has said as much, tying to ruling class males of the middle ages European histories on which the novels are based. It also makes sense that He would have loved his wife adoringly as the only person in his life (and a required one at that) with whom he could been vulnerable with and not have it a weakness... until she died. Martin has already set up Tywin's trauma response as an over-correcting mind set, so it makes sense that when his one 'safe' loved died he would never allow himself that 'weakness' again. The fact that the two laughed in public and were seen as genuinely affection leads me to believe that she was indeed a loving, caring women who felt happy to have been married to a man who loved her, in a society where that was not at all common or even likely. Using a modern day view to view a historical (albeit fictional) based work would be akin to saying historical work of art don't accurately reflect today's values. While true, it misses the point of art.

Tywin's worst nightmare would be having ONLY Tyrion as his son, & the timeline fits this better than Tyrion being a hidden Targaryen.

This is an incredible video. I’d never even thought about this before. It’s an interesting theory and I love how you tie this to other examples in the books. This is going to haunt me for a long time.

I 100% agree with you. I always thought he love her cause she was the most like him. Not to mention her also being a Lannister by birth and not true marriage also makes this more likely in my mind. Similiar by blood means they are more likely to have a similiar temperments

I love your video. It feels very much in line with GRRM's style. And yeah, I would have loved to have at least one POV chapter on Joanna...

I think that Tyrion's relationship with Shae is also George's way of showing us what kind of relationship Tywin might've had with Joanna. *Throughout the books, we are told that Tywin and Tyrion are very similar.* When Tyrion kills his father, he remarks that "I am you writ small" - which basically translates to "I am just like you, father". When Jamie is at the siege of Riverrun, and he meets up with his aunt Genna, she tells him that "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you." which breaks Jamie's heart to hear - but it is true. The truth is Tywin hates Tyrion because he reminds him so much of himself. Tyrion loves to f*ck whores, but we find out that Tywin loves that too. Before Tyrion kills him, we see Shae sprawled naked on his bed, and wearing his jewellry (the chain of the Hand of the King). This is very interesting because Tywin's father used to do the same thing with his whores, and Tywin despised him for it, and yet Tywin does the exact same thing. Not only that, but when Varys and Tyrion are sneaking through the secret tunnels of the Red Keep, heading to the brothel where Shae is waiting for Tyrion, Tyrion notices that there are red and gold tinted windows there. Red and gold are Lannister colors, and Varys tells Tyrion that the tunnel was built for "another Hand of the King" who wanted to keep his lusts a secret. So Tywin might've been f*cking whores for a long time, maybe ever since he was the Hand for Aerys. Tywin also says that he hates Tyrion's low cunning and deviousness, and yet Tywin himself is devious and full of low cunning. We see that with the Red Wedding. Though he says that he despises these traits in Tyrion, his actions seem to suggest that he kind of respects them as well. Everytime he dismisses the councillors, the only person he allows to stay is Tyrion. There's a lot of smart people around that table, but the only person that he confounds his plans to after the Red Wedding is Tyrion. Their discussions take up a whole damn chapter. But he can't fully respect Tyrion because Tyrion represents everything he hated about his father, everything that he hates about himself. That brings me to Shae. Tyrion likes having Shae around because Shae is pretty and actually quite witty. She knows just what to say to Tyrion to make him feel good. She makes him feel powerful. That's probably exactly what Joanna did for Tywin. The fact that Joanna wasn't a whore probably made Tywin feel like he won the jackpot. But when she died birthing Tyrion, that probably left a sour taste in his mouth. That's why he despises Tyrion so much, and that's why he probably turned to whores for comfort. Tywin even sleeps with Tyrion's whore (Shae) at the end.

I used to be a pastor and when a family member of our congregation died a memorial service was held before a funeral. People would get up and speak about their departed loved one's life. Many of those people I never met for one reason or another. What I heard shared made me wish I had met them. This post of yours about idealizing Johanna Lannister as a departed loved one makes sense. You see idealizing a departed loved one is very human. That is part of coming to terms with the long road of grief that never fully goes away. I always have liked both Lyannna Stark and Johanna Lannister .

brilliant, you are one of the best commenter and reviewer of Asoiaf i ever heard and you right about almost everything, and you have a very relaxing and soothing voice . I love your videos. I hope you remin brilliant and keep up the great work

If Joanna was just as abusive as Tywin was, that would explain where Cersei got it from.

this went so hard. your takes are genius

Miss Hill uploading a video and my Warriors advanced to the semi-finals. As made this a very pleasant Sunday.

I mean everyone described her as being kind, and maybe Tywin hated the weakness in his children, especially when Jaime or Tyrion were kind or merciful because it reminded him of Joanna, and how it was her kindness and love for her children which he believes is what killed her. Could that have also been the reason why he loathed weaknesses in them? But that being said I do agree that she had layers, but if there were moments of kindness then it was reserved for her family, after all it was in Cersei's line to Joffrey, "Anyone who isn't us is an enemy." Maybe Joanna had taught her daughter to always put family first, and not strangers. So you're right I think Joanna was decisive, and the real Joanna was not what others thought.

Man there are some great discussions and points here. Just makes me love the tragedy of the pre-series more and all the could have beens if just this one person hadn’t died etc.

Doesn't Tywin have a secret door to the brothel? He doesn't remarry, sure, but how much of that is Tywin upholding the image (within his mind as much as within the minds of others) of this perfect relationship that can never be replaced vs true devotion to her? You always offer well reasoned and interesting takes on asoiaf!

These are some really interesting ideas. The picture you paint makes me think of a fantasy version of Katey Sagal's Lady Macbeth analogue character in Sons of Anarchy, or given George's love of roman emperors, Livia from I Claudius. Livia would make a lot of sense with the theories of Tywin's whoring, too, as in I Claudius she procured women for Augustus, and bound him to her with his shame and gratitude.

Wow this was a brilliant insight. She was Tywins dream woman from whom he took advice. Joanna was a Lannister by blood after all.

I love this take of yours!💟

This video got my attention and the Allicent video hooked me! Subscribed

This is pure speculation as you say, but I love this theory, and have to agree. It is inconceivable that a man as amoral and devoid of joy would be in love with or be loved by the angelic fantasy that is perpetuated by the characters in the song. I think she would the woman Cersei perceives herself to be. An accomplished politician and player of the game of thrones. Perhaps more akin to Margery in the tv shows, who can present herself as the most desirable person to anyone she chooses, even a psychopath like Joffrey. Like with Joffrey, Joanne would to convince Tywin that she understood him and they were kindred spirits, this couldn't be done in the usual romanticised courtly manner, but by being practical, dutiful and perhaps even as amoral as Tywin himself

That thumbnail looks so much like a yassified Cersei. Great Vid yet again.

10:21 I don't know how you manage to consistently come up with new incisive commentary on ASOIAF, but here I am, dazzled for the umpteenth time. I never considered the possibility of Joanna being villainous like Tywin, but as you've laid it out, it's totally conceivable. I would love for GRRM to actually hint at this theory in the books. One thing I wonder, though, is if Tywin slept with sex workers while he was married to Joanna. I don't know why, and perhaps it makes no sense, but if he did, that makes me question if he really did deeply love her, and if she was actually his match in wits and cunning.

Fantastic video! If you mix in some clips from the show and some created diagrams + edits I’m sure you’d become quite popular. Great stuff

I don't think it's possible for two snakes to fall in love with eachother - their nature tears them apart at best they simply have a passionate fling and then it's the end. Whilst presumably Joana wasn't a saint, I believe she was partly decent since Tyrion & Jamie occasional kindness must come from her. Joana must have overlooked Tywin's "flaws" and "submitted" to him - stroking Tywin's ego helping maintain pride; her ability to be peaceable with Tywin's nature is the simultaneous moral strength and flaw. Whereas Cersie inherited Tywin's vicious pride. And Tywin could never love a woman like his daughter, an insolent fool. Were Joanna like Cersie, Tywin would have killed Tyrion instead of honouring the memory of a harlot.

Never really thought about this before, but it makes a lot of sense. omg I love this theory

Out of the 3, poor Elia got the worst death at the hands of the Mountain.

Are you going to do a video on Tywin’s siblings and Tytos? I feel that the on-paper narrative is extremely unfair to them.

Joanna was probably much like Cersai - but smart. ^^

I always understood that a person, that Tywin would love would be a far worse sceamer and even more prideful than him. He probably only dated her because she was close to the pincess and the crownprince. Once they were married, he got jealous and tried to lock her away from King's Landing, because he knew Joana and - then still handsome and project-filled- Aerys were close. There was probably a competition between them who had more influence on Aerys. The relationship between Joanna and Aerys angering both, Rhaella and Tywin, though Rhaella couldn't care less once Aerys started to get odd. I imagine she sneaked back regularily in secret to visit Tywin by the tunnel below the Tower of the Hand. And there she also might chance meet Aerys, on his occasionally nights out in the city. Tywin had no proof that happened, until Tyrion was born a Chimera obviously to two fathers. I am pretty certain he either locked Joanna up in the dungeons of Casterly Rock where he had walled her in to starve to death or sent her off to be a Silent Sister, probably in a good example of a medieval method having her face cut and her tongue out so that she would be veiled and could not speak about what he had done to her. This sounds just like something he might do, and would also explain his silence: he is highly offended by the one he thought his soul-twin. I had suspicions the moment of his entry on the story Jon Snow (himself a king hiding beneath the snows) thought that Jaime was more like a king than Robert, and he having an attraction for his own twin. And remember that A Song Of Ice and Fire has a grim world with strong body-horror elements to it, and dwells of tortures and living corpses of all sort. Whenever a woman disappears in this society one has to ask: Wait, how did she disappear? Died in birthing a child obviously out of wedlock to a proud man? Oh, did she die? - I was unsure up to the moment in the Sansa-Storyline came up that women who had lost their honour were sent to the Silent Sisters and there was a description of the Silent Sisters that had brought Ned's bones to Catelyn. On the reread I thought Joanna was with them, and she was also with those that 'embalmed' Tywin for the burial - To be exact she didn't enbalm him, she made sure he would start to rot while still on display, so all would know what sort of jealous stinker he was, so people would made a connection between his decay and vainglorious pride. So far it's only a chain of hints, I will be certain the moment Margery will be sentenced to the SIlent Sisters for Adultery once Robert Strong wins the duel for Cersei. And some Lannisters being moss-eyed gives a hint of them being related with the Reeds of greywater-watch and probably having latent greenseer-talents, she might be able to use an obsidian candle and sneak into her children's dreams. (Though that could also have been Alleras, that demoralizes Jaime by seeding doubts of his belonging and tries to make Cersei throttle herself with her own bedcloth, while asleep.) And it would be a wonderful irony, when Aerys tells Jaime to bring him his father's head and he then turns around and comes at Aerys to do just as commanded. Aerys probably realized in that moment he got what he asked for and the same time also got what he feared Rhaegar for: killed and dethroned by his own son, that additionally thought the Iron Throne to be a comfortable seat, though that dragonfire-forged Iron Throne has an almost magical life on it's own, cutting unworthy kings. It cut Robert but it didn't cut Jaime, who had just killed his King. In Harrenhal he went into a far too hot bath, together with Brienne who might be his cousin from a relationship of Dunk and one of Eggs sisters. And when in the Tunnel beneath the Tower of the Hand right over the Dragon-Mosaic he and Cersei were potentially created, he had a flash of the dragon getting hm in the end - and mind, he's also suspiciously aging: his hair is turning gold and sliver, as if a dragon was breaking through, and Cersei is the same wildfire-maniac like Aerys. Especially the world-book, that tries to deflect every tiny suspicion from any possibility that Joanna was with Aerys, being dedicated to Robert and having the Tywin-Fanboy Pycella as source... No, that story is 'too fishy' and many layered. Until it is spelled out to me Tywin had no children. Of Joanna's children only Tyrion, who visibly wasn't his, tried to be like him, all his life.

The problem with Jamie as an heir is that he's Kingsguard and will have no heirs. Big problem.

You make a very I retesting point right there. I never thought of Joanna and her mythos as being a fallacy maybe because it’s more easy to think of her as perfect and idealized. Great video !

during the battle of the blackwater cersei says to sansa that her mother was the one who taught her that "tears are a womans weapon". i think she was Tywin with Teets. Manipulative and ruthless but with feminine wiles.