Antagonist wise joker> even the most johantards agrees with it if they read comics Character wise, joker, hannibal, morgana, beato, reinhard, jack, furuta, Griffith, makishima, ougi, karl>johan, he ties with kojiro, zeke, souichi and L is the only one who loses against Johan in character writing with high diff here
@@Drtu576aight comic joker is trash. He only is regarded high because of his cultural influence. Johan does a much better job at portraying the concept of absolute nihilism and evil. Fang yuan tho is indeed greater and high diffs johan
@@A_087_ agreed on the joker part and the fang yuan tho both get simply trashed down by beatrice and souichi. Imo souichi>johan(mid diff) Beatrice>johan(mid-high diff)
⚠️For those who comparing johan with soichi and beatrice⚠️ Comparing Johan Liebert (from Monster), Souichi Tsujii (from Junji Ito's works), and Beatrice (from Umineko no Naku Koro ni) across multiple traits like antagonism, goals, theme, intelligence, manipulation, and psychological depth is an interesting challenge, as they all come from different genres and narrative styles. Let’s break it down across the traits you mentioned: --- 1. Antagonism: Johan Liebert: He is the epitome of a cold and calculated antagonist. Johan is more of a psychological threat, causing destruction without lifting a finger. His antagonism is rooted in nihilism, desiring to erase not just lives but also identities and legacies. His calm, almost charming demeanor makes him terrifying. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi is more chaotic and unpredictable. He is antagonistic, but often in a mischievous, almost absurd way, leaning more towards horror-comedy. While his pranks and schemes are dark, his character lacks the grand malice of Johan or Beatrice. Beatrice: Beatrice’s antagonism is rooted in her manipulation of events and her use of magic and illusions to trap people in an endless cycle of death. She balances between being cruel and compassionate, representing the classic witch archetype in a complex manner. Winner: Johan - His antagonism is grounded in realistic psychological horror, making him more unsettling. --- 2. Goals: Johan Liebert: His goal is to create a void, erasing himself and others from the world in a final act of destruction. His nihilistic aim to be the “last man standing” represents a deeper exploration of human nature and identity. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi’s goals tend to be petty and personal, focused more on his immediate satisfaction, which makes him seem less threatening on a grand scale. Beatrice: Beatrice’s goals revolve around ending the cycle of repeated time loops and confronting the truth of her own existence. Her ultimate aim is complex, involving existential themes around love, magic, and the nature of reality. Winner: Beatrice - Her goals are tied to existentialism, love, and power, making her the most thematically complex. --- 3. Theme: Johan Liebert: His character revolves around themes of nihilism, the nature of evil, and the existential weight of identity. He represents the darkest side of humanity, questioning whether people are inherently good or evil. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi’s character leans more towards dark humor and the absurdity of horror. His themes are more about the grotesque nature of childhood cruelty and the randomness of horror. Beatrice: Her themes delve into concepts of truth vs. illusion, the power of belief, cycles of fate, and the nature of love. Her character is a philosophical exploration of the meaning of life, death, and suffering. Winner: Beatrice - Her themes are rich, philosophical, and interwoven with the story’s metaphysical elements. --- 4. Introduction: Johan Liebert: Introduced as a victim, his transformation from an innocent child into one of the most terrifying villains is gripping and subtle. His introduction sets the stage for a deep mystery. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi's introduction is often light-hearted in the context of horror, playing into Junji Ito’s style. It’s less terrifying but still unsettling due to the bizarre nature of his antics. Beatrice: Beatrice's introduction is legendary, as she enters with the reputation of a mysterious, powerful witch capable of manipulating reality. Her introduction commands awe and fear, instantly establishing her as a formidable antagonist. Winner: Johan - His introduction as a seemingly innocent victim that becomes the embodiment of evil is masterful. --- 5. Background: Johan Liebert: Johan’s background as a product of experimentation and trauma deeply influences his personality and motivations. His past is explored through layers of psychological scars, making his character incredibly complex. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi’s background is often played for humor. He comes from a relatively normal family but has developed an intense interest in curses and the macabre. Beatrice: Beatrice’s background is deeply intertwined with the lore of Umineko. Her origins involve questions of magic, identity, and love, making her background one of the most intricate in anime/manga. Winner: Johan - His backstory is a psychological deep dive into trauma and experimentation, adding profound depth to his character. --- 6. IQ (Intelligence): Johan Liebert: Johan is a genius strategist. He manipulates people with ease, orchestrates events on a grand scale, and remains several steps ahead of everyone else. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi is clever in his own way but lacks the strategic brilliance of Johan or Beatrice. His schemes are more childlike and impulsive. Beatrice: Beatrice demonstrates intellectual prowess by manipulating reality, creating complex traps and games, and engaging in mental battles. Winner: Johan - His intelligence is unparalleled, making him a terrifyingly effective antagonist. --- 7. EQ (Emotional Intelligence): Johan Liebert: Johan has a disturbingly high EQ, understanding people’s emotions and vulnerabilities, which he uses to manipulate and destroy them psychologically. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi lacks emotional intelligence, often oblivious to the consequences of his actions. His cruelty is more childish. Beatrice: Beatrice displays emotional intelligence in how she manipulates people’s fears, desires, and beliefs. She also grows emotionally as the series progresses, showing complexity in her relationships with others. Winner: Johan - His understanding of human emotions is frighteningly accurate, making his manipulations more effective. --- 8. Manipulation: Johan Liebert: Johan is a master manipulator, often driving people to commit atrocities without ever directly ordering them. His ability to inspire madness and fear is his greatest weapon. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi’s manipulations are more for personal entertainment. He’s good at tricking people but lacks Johan’s grand scale. Beatrice: Beatrice manipulates entire realities, bending the truth to suit her needs. She plays with perception and belief, making her a master manipulator in a metaphysical sense. Winner: Johan - His manipulation works on both a personal and societal level, making him one of the most dangerous characters. --- 9. Adaptability: Johan Liebert: Johan adapts to every situation, effortlessly changing tactics to suit his needs. He thrives in chaos and uncertainty. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi is less adaptable, as his plans often backfire. He’s clever but not a master of improvisation. Beatrice: Beatrice can adapt to any challenge, particularly in the context of her magical and intellectual battles. She remains flexible in her schemes. Winner: Johan - His ability to adapt and control chaotic situations makes him more dangerous. --- 10. Complexity & Depth: Johan Liebert: Johan is deeply complex, a manifestation of trauma, evil, and nihilism. His character explores the darkest aspects of humanity, offering no easy answers to his motivations. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi is more straightforward, serving as a chaotic antagonist with comedic and horror elements. He lacks the depth of Johan or Beatrice. Beatrice: Beatrice is a multi-layered character, combining themes of love, betrayal, and the struggle between illusion and reality. Her complexity is tied to her metaphysical nature and tragic past. Winner: Beatrice - Her layers of character complexity and thematic depth are vast, especially when it comes to existential themes. --- 11. Human Psychology: Johan Liebert: Johan’s understanding and use of psychology are frightening. He manipulates not just individuals but entire systems of thought, exploiting human weaknesses on a large scale. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi’s understanding of psychology is more basic, often playing on fears in a childish way. Beatrice: Beatrice uses psychology to manipulate her opponents, particularly through her control of perception and belief. Winner: Johan - His deep knowledge of psychology allows him to exploit the darkest aspects of human nature. --- 12. Charisma: Johan Liebert: Johan’s charisma is chilling. He is soft-spoken, intelligent, and manipulative, drawing people in with his charm while hiding his true nature. Souichi Tsujii: Souichi is not particularly charismatic. His appeal is more in his eccentricity than any real charm. Beatrice: Beatrice has a grand, theatrical charisma, exuding an aura of power and confidence. She can command attention and fear with her presence. Winner: Beatrice - Her commanding and playful nature gives her a charismatic edge. --- Overall Winner: Johan Liebert While Beatrice and Johan both excel in different areas, Johan wins overall due to his sheer psychological depth, manipulation skills, and terrifying intelligence. He embodies a level of realism that makes him more unsettling as an antagonist, whereas Beatrice’s complexity is more abstract and tied
aint no way people are claiming souichi is more complex. The only think souchi would take against johan would be development, monologue, enjoyability, and overall dynamics. People think a character being more enjoyable means they are better written damn and I doubt they even tried to understand Johan's character. I'd argue his symbolism, conclusion and main dynamic is the best in animanga
This guy didn't even know who is antagonist in usogui...he really put baku and souichi in one photo... This newbie didn't even read most of the series among them
@Antonio21563 Total. De hecho, los juegos de Umineko están llenos de agujeros argumentales. Ya sabes, que en una entrega dicen que algo es así, y en la siguiente tiran todo eso a la basura porque sí. Definitivamente tiene una historia desechable, y no destaca más allá del fanservice.
@Murphs_Law Even if i don't know who he is, but if Batman wins, then it's W for me. You can call me Batman fan, but I don't have any character above Batman. Whether it is Walt, Tony, Musashi, or anyone.
Joker easily decimates in writing, his backstory is far more depressing and he is far wiser than Johan. Besides that everything else I feel is right (almost).
@@Maou7 bruh... Joker is peak of writing... Beatrice is good, but just good. Johans depth philosophy, dimensionality and symbolism is peak. Stop overrating characters cuz no one ever heard about them, ok?
@@ЖамекЖамек-н6ч Explain exactly why Joker is the pinnacle of writing? Have you read the comics yourself? He isn't even close to Johan in most of the comics where's he's mid except some where's he's done right. His writing is pretty inconsistent due to authors changing on steak which makes his overall character a mess. Even where he's peak he doesn't have as much psychological depth and realistic writing as Johan. I would like you to explain why Joker is "peak of writing" cuz I just don't see how. Have you read umineko? Again can you elaborate on why you think Beatrice is just good? You talk about depth and dimensionality and ironically these two are the points she takes against both of them pretty comfortably and I can elaborate. Johan takes philosophy and symbolism tho.
@@Maou7 Because first of all he is an iconic character, and secondly his dynamic with Batman, where they are supposedly two sides of the same coin, they are both spawns of criminal Gotham, both are not right in the head because of this city, they are manifestations of the sins of this very city, in different forms. Both know that one day they will have to kill each other. Also, the Joker is funny and scary at times. You get the sense that he's a real psychopath who's about to do something. It's a sign of very good character building if you feel threatened by the drawn man. He's also a symbol, a symbol of anarchy and a counterweight to society and human nature. Naturally the authors are different but then there are the editors, the general character of the Joker has never changed, only the details have changed. This is a brief analysis naturally. I'm not going to write an essay here. I'm not saying that Beatrice doesn't have depth or anything, it's just that Johan is a character about whose character you can do whole video essays discussing Johan's motivation and meaning, as they do. And Beatrice can be done in ten minutes. It's not because she's not popular, no, Beatrice was quite popular in her day, but I haven't seen a single decent critical analysis of her as a character. Umeniki as a whole is just below Monster and Hirugash in my opinion,
Reinhard isnt an antagonist lmfao clearly you havent actually watched or read any of these series. Souichi jack and furuta clear johan too. As does utsuro
Hannibal maybe, but Joker? Joker is overrated for being iconic/classic and for his dynamic with Batman, but in the rest of the writing aspects he is honestly inferior to Johan.
@@blazi5218 Joker is iconic because he is so well written especially the Arkham games version . Joker for me is a better antagonist than Johan because of his philosophy and personality.
@@AGXZ-mz4il Iconic ≠ well written Goku is very iconic in popular culture and is far surpassed in writing by many characters. Sometimes when something is more iconic/nostalgic your mind modifies its perception. Even so I understand that for you it is better.
@@blazi5218 I didnt say Iconic = well written . What I meant was the reason Joker is iconic is because of how unique of a character is . Johan is also an incredible villain but Joker for me is a slightly better character because of how much of a threat he poses to Batman and how much he antagonizes him despite being a normal human just because he is so unpredictable .
I would agree but it's mainly cause Johan's backstory is more fleshed out than Merc's and when it comes to Merc there's still a lot we don't know about him. But yeah I could see Merc taking it@@Itz_Rubayet
@@tedstrange4486 no light clearly became a homicidal maniac with a god complex even though he had noble intentions to begin with. L is character is mysterious but he leans more towards to good side since he is fighting for justice.
@@JamesLee50 Sure right here. Morgana=Johan as an antagonist. Both are entirely different types of antagonist so it come downs to preferences. Johan is better villain but better antagonist defines how well they contrast their protagonists. Johan's parallels and contrast with Tenma and Morgana's with Michel while are totally different type both are equally outstanding. As a character she's comfortably better than him and it's pretty obvious. She's more fleshed out and we know more about her feelings, motives and characteristics. She has more depth and psychological complexity. Johan's pretty amazing in that too but gets overrated due to urasawa's convoluted and mysteries way of writing villans which people mistake as complexity. Johan's complexity is simply told you through narrative or other characters while Morgana's complexity is demonstrated through dialogues, interactions and proper characterization. She has better relationship with each of the cast and parallels with most of them in some unique ways. She has better backstory which plays more crucial role to the narrative. She's explored through both the roles of protagonist and antagonist as well as she can be the narrative itself which gives room for other characters to develop. She's overall more original as we have seen Johan's nihilistic concept many times before. She has many character peaks that outweighs Johan's peak such as fragments and revenants. Her conclusion in reincarnation is basically perfect and best way to end her entire character which is better than Johan's one.
@@Maou7Urasawa’s writing isn’t convoluted at all. Also everything you said about Beatrice’s complexity that she has, Johan also had all of those things. Also his Nihilism hasn’t been done by any other writer in the way Urasawa portrayed it.
@@SoulSociety404 Yeah I know Johan has alot of complexity and all that but in a comparitive sense they are not as well executed as competitor's case. Uraswa indeed writes antagonists in a stretching convoluted way in purpose to make them more omnimious to create more hype. Disadvantaging their characterization. For example, Johan and Friend. Johan although has some extent of good characterization and doesn't effect him that much, but it's a mention worthy disadvantage against the competitor who has been characterizd through utmost care. Also, reading Johan's depth and complexity feels like reading a wikipedia where mostly everything is simply told to you by other characters or the narrative (not all) While the other has it through proper jounery, actions and interactions. Also, I was talking about Morgana here not Beatrice. If you want to talk about Beatrice then she's even better than Morgana imo.
Johan low-mid diff Joker in the dark knight had only 2hours to develop he is good but he ain't beating johan (also heaths performance is the greatest acting performance in movies imo)
