Jokic’s Place in the Pantheon If He Goes Back-to-Back | The Bill Simmons Podcast 

The notion that Jokic was the worst MVP is remarkably stupid. The man has shown year after year that he is the best basketball player in the world.

Jokic is an historic playoff performer but I never hear his actual playoff numbers talked about. He's #1 in many playoff advanced numbers all time, #7 in playoff ppg all time, 7th all time in playoff true shooting percentage, 7th all time in playoff effective field goal percentage, 3rd all time in playoff triple doubles, 15th all time in playoff rebounds per game and 19th all time in playoff assists per game. Those numbers are just staggering! Absolutely agree he's in the running for a top 10 all time list with one more MVP--which he'll get in a matter of days--and another title in his career. He'd also have to play another 5 years or so at an all NBA level.

Honest to God, i never expected him to be this great back in 2014 when he was the best player in Serbia playing for a development team in Mega Leks. He's improved every year since he's come to the NBA and it's been a joy to watch him grow. I'm so proud a Serb is the best basketball player in the world and i'm glad it's him ❤🇷🇸

Every Year Joker is getting better

People who actually know the game of basketball know just how damn good Hakeem was. There is no scenario where Durant should be put in front of Hakeem.

I really want Jokic and the Nuggets to three peat. There will be no denying him then, by anyone.

He will be one of if not the greatest playoff risers in NBA history when it’s all said and done

Anyone that doesn't think Joker is elite only watches highlights and not full games. Highest IQ, best passer, efficient scorer, and makes his teammates better. He literally controls the entire game. His peak will be top 3 all time. (I love MJ and Lebron - appreciate greatness)

Nikola Jokić, soon in the G.O.A.T. conversation! 😎

Joker to me is like the modern tim duncan of the 2000s where he didnt have another superstar but just made everyone in his team better so every year was a serious championship contender. (tony parker wasnt as good during this time and david robinson was way past his prime)

As a Dubs fan, Jason Timpf on Colin Cowherd’s podcast said it best last night: The Joker is inevitable! More so than Thanos ever was! He has no weaknesses at any level on the floor on both sides and he’s bigger than everyone else so there’s literally nothing you can do. Unless Embiid gets healthy and moves to the Western Conference, I don’t see a legit matchup that can contend with Denver for the next couple of years after this! ❤

People tend to confuse style and skill. Jokic is highly skilled but many find his style less popular. Hes not fast, not quick, no hops, no flashy moves or tricks, etc. Yet he is insanely efficient, fundamentally sound, minimal mistakes and makes other players better. All these qualities will make him top ten of all-time if hes not already. I think hes only going to get better and with his style of play, he will have minimal injuries and a very long career if he chooses. Perhaps his best qualities are availability and consistency-consistently scores, rebounds, assists, no turnovers, and continues to win at the highest levels. He is basically a living legend before our eyes. Yall better recognize and appreciate it while hes still here.

I forget who said it on a podcast I was listening to, but they said ,"the further you go off the ground, the more injured you will be." I think that's extremely true. The Derrick rose, Anthony Edward's, ja morants, Blake griffins of the world are always, always incredibly fun to watch.. but it's just one bad landing away or just wear and tear over time, that starts putting you out of games more and more. Explosive players have short exciting careers and "boring" players who stay grounded usually end up in the long game

Nothing happened to Jerry West. It’s just logic. If it took 70+ years to make your “bet your soul on this top 10” list, in 70+ more years half of them should be knocked off. Just like 35+ years ago the top 10 would have looked different than now.

Jokic is so insane. It’s like watching a 5th grade team with the only tall kid on the team

7:45 I don’t agree with Bill a lot; but this is spot on. Peak should be a 4 year sample of generally the same teammates or lineup construction. Prime should be more ambiguous.

Has Jokic passed Durant? If I had to pick either of them in their prime, it would be hard to pass up Jokic.

Bill and Russilo underrated Kobe

This is one of the greatest peaks in the history of the NBA. The past 4 years, Jokic has been playing at peak MJ/Bron level. Here's to hoping Denver can be healthy enough to win a couple more rings. One more, and I think he's knocking on Larry's door.

I agree with everything both guys said. Charles Barkley recently said he doesn't understand why people are so reluctant to praise the guy. I think if he played for the Lakers, Warriors, Knicks or one of the bigger ball clubs he would be praised and talked about way more.

Bill, you put Kobe over Jerry in 2009. What do you mean what did West do to fall behind Kobe? Lol.

Of all the fanbases in the world, Lakers fans appreciate Jokic's greatness the most right now...

My entire nba fandom was started and maintained through LeBron and let me just say that Jokic is the only player that has made me feel as a fan 100% hopeless that LeBron would move on to the next round. Obviously this is age 39 LeBron, so it isn’t exactly the perfect showdown of two legends at their peak, but I’m not 100% sure I even would take the Lakers with 2012-2018 LeBron. Kawhi never got to that level. Curry and KD did get there but only in the context of having the most talented roster ever conceived. Dirk didn’t get there. (Obviously the result was a disaster, but there was no reason to expect defeat heading into the 2011 finals). But Denver doesn’t have an unbeatable roster or a large talent advantage. They just have a guy so good that their roster becomes unbeatable.

here for the hakeem love . my favorrite Center ever still

'One notch below Tatum.' Cool, Bill.

D wade and Tony Parker don't get enough credit for their big playoff games that got their teams series wins

The best thing for me (Nuggets fan) is reading how Rui Hachimura is some kind of secret Jokic Kryptonite. When Lakers fans start talking about Rui I just know the delusion is coming.

Jokic is better than anybody that played in the nba since lebron/kobe/shaq and might be better than all of them when he done ✔️

I know one person that doesn't care where Jokić finishes in All-time list. It's Jokić!

Jokic's human design is absolutely STACKED. he has the mechanics of someone with consistent energy / SOLID motor [ like Jordan and Kobe did ] in a strong position, but also has crazy mental energy stacked up to support this [ for anyone into human design ]. not surprising at all with these mechanics. he will have a very long an successful career.

I'm with you Russillo regarding Hakeem. the only center I may take over him is Jokic

Jokic was good on defense today. Absolute food

WHERE IS SHAQ IN THE TOP 10, BILL? He had the best Finals run and performance of anyone not named Michael Jeffrey Jordan. 36/15/4/3 on 60% shooting with 3 FMVPs and a 12-3 record in three consecutive Finals.

It's pretty hard to even discuss this til he gets much closer to retirement, but as far as what historic Centers have done before the age of 30, he's basically behind Kareem and Shaq, maybe? And as far as his skillset (with the shooting and passing) he may even be past Shaq already. I don't expect to put him over Kareem, but I'm prepared to (eventually) label him a Top 2-3 Center all-time.

Bill got Kove severely underrated

For the next 7 years he will be a contender and a top 3 mvp candidate so if he wins 4mvps and 5fmvps more is he the goat?

The most valuable person ever in the NBA was and is Jerry West. Heck, just his GM role alone makes him the most valuable ever. Architect of Showtime Lakers, Kobe and Shaq, The Super Warriors, the Grindhouse Grizzlies... who is more valuable than that?

Half of me loves NBA history and loves ranking all time players the other half hates all time debates because ultimately we are comparing players in completely different circumstances and the way the game is played has changed each era, even within eras it’s complicated comparing 2 guys playing different positions or completely different styles because in a team sport the value of the individual can depend on what role they play within a team and how their skillet complements their teammates and vice versa.. so I’ve settled on never ranking all time in order anymore and I go by tiers of each era For example Tier 1 Best of Generation/decade 60s Russell/Wilt 70s Kareem , Dr J (ABA included) 80s Magic/Bird 90s Jordan , Hakeem 00s Duncan, Shaq/Kobe 10s LeBron, Steph 20s Jokic , Giannis (Embiid/Luka) tbd 30s Wembanyama… tbd Jokic is incredible and to me he’s probably at his peak right now and he maybe hasn’t accomplished enough to fit in most peoples tier 1 one all time because this decade isn’t even over yet but just these past 4 seasons of him I think he’s clearly worthy of being in the same breath as everyone else who was the best of past generations. If I have any opinion that’s controversial it’s that Jordan is the most overrated of all of these players Not because I don’t think he’s probably the best or his era but because most fans put him on a pedestal above everyone else and I think in some ways you argue the 90s was the easiest era to win a lot of championships compared to the best players of other eras competition (RELATIVE TO ERA) And I’m someone if I had to guess generally speaking if players from the past would be better or worse if they played today I’d say worse because I believe in evolution but ultimately we can never know for sure and i like appreciating what players did in their own eras without having to compare.

Definitely needs more than 2-3 rings, but he’s great. Hypothetical until it happens though

shoutout russillo for "standing up" for hakeem, i feel like he gets somewhat lost in the cracks

i think if he wins MVP and another title and finals MVP this year, he'll be in that 11-15 range. another MVP and title in the next few years after this year and he'd move into the top 10. if he can get to 5 MVPs or 4 titles, then he could be top 5. he's got a long way to go but Denver has a solid core that isn't going anywhere and he's still in his prime.

I don’t even know what the criteria is anymore in the all time conversation.

The thing with jokic is that he shouldn’t be this good. AD showed it last night. AD can score on him whenever he wants but jokic is playing a whole different game. AD is going at him but jokic is going at the entire team. He might be the smartest player ever.

Nick Wright was the one who said that Nikola Jokic was one of the worst MVP winners of all time. He actually compared his MVP to Dave Cowens’. 🤷🏻‍♂️🙄🤦🏻‍♂️

Duncan should be top 5

if he ends his career with at least 4-5 Championships being the FMVP on all those wins, one could argue he is a top ten player of all time

Not one Mention of Doctor J is beyond disrespectful

Jokic for sure has an argument over Moses Malone if he wins the MVP, ring and FMVP this year.

My top 10: MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Bird, Kobe, Russell Next 10: Steph, Hakeem, West, Durant, Moses Malone, Oscar, Jokic, Robinson, Karl Malone, Giannis I don't think Steph or Durant will crack my top ten given they each just have a few years left, but Jokic and Giannis still have several years left of their peaks to build up their resumes.

Listen to LeBron with JJ talk about Jokic. He’s a problem wherever he is on the court and I think few big men have that distinction. He’s a threat wherever he is and has an IQ to match his skills.

If joker goes back to back he would be somewhere between top 10 top 12 for me because of the way he plays the game he's just so much overall a better player than most everybody else and can we be honest he's just disrespected buy black people because he's not poster dunking on people.

🃏 4MVP

There is just one player in the NBA who can box out Jokic out of the paint and his playing for Nuggets. Its DeAndre Jordan.

Hakeem is the second best center of all time. I will die on that hill

Top 5 all time when he retires

In the 11-13 range with Steph and Hakeem.

Imma say it. I dont think you can have steph over kobe. I was writing out a whole piece but then i thought no. It should be somewhat obvious as to why imo

And why do we completely dismiss the fact that Kobe was a clear no 2 on team that 3 peated lol

What about D Wade? Y’all never talk about Wade, The Disrespect!

Kobe Bryant not in your top ten????? I mean what are we doing here

The reason Jokic gets the hate he does is bc compared to other MVPs like Lebron, Jordan, Steph, etc he’s not considered as exciting as those guys. Big guys are never fan favorites. As great as Shaq & Duncan were they were never as popular as Kobe or Wade. Historically swingmen to point guards are universally loved while nobody roots for Goliath 🤔

The jokic discourse comes from the fact America is getting its ass kicked when it comes the best of the best, Jokic giannis and luka are the 3 best players right now and sga and embiid are right there

Worst mvp in 40 years my a$$, love to see ppl so salty so afraid like shaq so dumb at the end that can't or won't admit that Jokić is best player in 4 years span and my god if he win this year look out He's top 10 i would say top 5 ffs!!!!!!

Steph and Duncan over Kobe? Like….really?

I'm a Lakers fan, born in LA, and I have never once heard anyone talk about Jokic being a bad MVP. Every single person thinks he's a genius on the court and should have the 2 he won and the one he was cheated out of when Embiid won it.

Listen I'm an objective Laker fan i have Duncan over kobe in that 6 to 7 range but we gotta stop ignoring Kobe's 08-10 run 3 straight finals appearances 2 chips and 2 finals mvps in the western conference without at top 75 teammate. He completed dominated Duncan in 08 WCF

What Olajuwon did in 94 and 95 was never seen. Even today. And he never had any Pippen, Kobe, Jamal Murray, any second star or close to a star. And Olajuwon was the primary offense player and was the primary defender on the other team best player.

Wait hold on….y’all listed a top 10 with Bird, West, Duncan, Curry and no Kobe. It’s very clear that someone needs to take their basketball cards. These two are not authorized to talk hoops any longer.

That BILL alltime top 10 list is nasty.......THE REAL ALLTIME LIST IS MJ,KAREEM, MAGIC, KOBE, DUNCAN, LEBRON, BIRD, SHAQ, CURRY, HAKEEM

SMH media is so prisoner of the moment. They literally made steph the most overrated player of all time and lebrick 2nd this generation. Hope they don't do it to jokic. Probably top 20 right now. Winning this year would make him top 15. But the steph top 10 or even top5/1 non sense is absolutely unacceptable.

Jokic numbers may not max out for his career though because he's likely to retire early. Not the kind of guy who cares at all about legacy. At least not yet, I suppose never say never

Jokic will retire as the best center of all time. Stamp it

The Kobe disrespect is insane. Literally the only thing Stephen Curry could do on a basketball court better than Kobe is shoot and pass. He was arguably the greatest number 2 in the history of the NBA during the three championship, run with Shaquille and the Lakers, and then takes three Laker teams to the NBA finals, including back to back with no prime top 75 All-time player alongside him and a guy who barely made the Hall of Fame And arguably shouldn’t have in Pau Gasol as his #2 teammate and we’re arguing him or Curry?? let’s just not even mention his 9 all defensive team selections. But yes, people are going to argue him because he’s “more popular” 🥴😒

Yes, I think Jokic is already one of the greats, but it's too early for this conversation.

larry bird had the same kind of body like joker n luka and he had back injuries and it derailed his career later in his life and joker allready has back problems which are only going to get worse as he ages and that could derail him just aswell. thats why i think he has to take advantage of the nba while hes healthy cuz i dont think his game will age well just cuz hes not super in shape and athletic nor do i believ he wants to play till hes super old he just seems like once his "prime" is over he will give up the nba

Magic, MJ, Kareem, Bird=Basketball's Mount Rushmore. I've got Steph at #5, followed by Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, Timmy and Shaq. Jokic is knocking at the door.

1 MJ 2 LBJ 3 Joker

To mention Tim Duncan, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon and even freakin' Durant and not say that Wilt Chamberlain was better than all of them, by far, is ridiculous. And putting Steph in front of Jerry West?!?!? I really like Bill but damn. The recency bias is strong. 👌 🇺🇲

I can’t have Steph Curry ahead of Kobe Bryant. I say this as a Kobe hater. The man was a 12x all defensive performer. That needs to be talked about more.

If he 3peats he is second only to Jordan and maybe better

If nba folded tommorrow Jokic is 100 percent ahead of Durant . I value peak over longevity.

What Jerry did to move outside the top 10 was that he didn't win!!! Jerry doesn't belong in this conversation anymore and I am shocked Bill has kept him in it this long. Also - Kobe is an emotional pick by Bill to move into top 10. Kobe and Steph are the only guys that needed a better player on their team to win multiple titles - so I believe those guys are on the outside looking in. If Shaq and KD did not lead the way and win those FMVPs, we're not talking about Steph and Kobe having the titles that they do. That should count against them. Hakeem/Wilt/Shaq/Bird/ Duncan never needed that. Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, LeBron, Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem is still the top 10 to me. If Jokic wins 1 more, alongside a FMVP and MVP - Joker moves into the top 10 without question. He leapfrogs KD, Steph, Kobe, Hakeem, and Wilt and is right there knocking on Shaq's door.

curry never will be better than kobe he is top 5

Jerry West top10 all time? Smoking crack

Having Tim above Kobe absolutely crazy

Lebron being a mercenary and hopping to stacked teams should sing him as well. That and he’s clearly using PEDS, but hey, let’s continue to bury our heads in the sand

Jokic would give Bill Russell a 50 piece on 75% shooting

JERRY WEST HAS A 1 - 9 NBA FINALS RECORD

Kobe 9th 😂😂😂

Not having Wilt in your top 10 is absolute madness

To me Steph is not ahead of Hakeem or Kobe two great two players who were THE alphas on their teams. Dreymond not Steph is the Alpha on GS. Also these guys didn’t go running to KD and beg him to join an already stacked team that couldn’t get past Lebron. Everyone blames and criticizes KD for this BUT KD did not fly to Long Island to beg to join the GS warriors … Steph Klay Dreymond did that. That was so weak that I can’t put Steph on top ten bc he got the best player at that time to win 2 rings and KD was the man on those teams. Weak.

1. Jordan 2. Lebron 3. Kareem 4. Magic 5. Russell 6. Wilt 7. Kobe 8. Duncan 9. Curry 10. Shaq 11. Bird 12. Hakeem 13. Jokic (if he goes b2b) 14. Zeke 15. Oscar

If he wins back to back he’d still be behind Centers KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Bill, Hakeem. I wouldn’t have a problem saying he would move ahead Mo and Admiral.

Curry over kobe is ridiculous

It’s not a good argument 😂 I don’t understand how playing defense never comes into play. Curry is better than Kobe offensively. Not by much. Kobe is miles better than Curry defensively. Not even close.

putting curry ahead of kobe is just asinine

Jokic has passed Lebron all time for me.

Middle-aged white dudes sure love to slander Kobe just to make themselves sound intellectual and edgy. Just like that annoying guy who always says "the movie is okay but the book is better" Baldy said Kobe was only highter because of popularity. That's an actual statement from an MVP voter. And people wonder why Kobe only has 1 MVP You can look back at Bill's article after Kobe scored 81. He gave Kobe some backhanded compliments and then magically figured out that Sasha hated Kobe because he was taking too many shots.The same Sasha who would run through a wall for Kobe That's the standard of media we're dealing with folks

How is Kobe not top 5?

I'm not married to wilt and russel since they played against only 7 other teams and basketball wasn't popular so it didn't attract as much talent. Its not their fault, but I mean russel would be Bam adebayo today.