Jordan Peterson on Dostoevsky: Beauty is terrifying | Lex Fridman Podcast Clips 

The world does not need saving, humanity may though

Beauty is terrifying (rather than terror), whatever we call beautiful, we quiver before it.

@@user-vl8ci8sp6k Your wrong. But we should be in awe. The culture is trying to make it rare. Real beauty can't be stopped, just look at the Tetons.

@@aaronpoage597 The world as it exists today needs saving from humanity.

I think Beauty won't save the world, but the world without beauty won't survive

Experience of beauty is a test of man's humanity. It can become an axis, point of reference but it's down to the mans character if he drifts from it in negative or positive direction. The humane part, what differs us from other species is the ability to understand that we always move from or towards beauty (god?).

My mom studied philosophy in University. When she told me that beauty was a part of philosophical studies, I was so surprised and dumbfounded. Why would beauty (which I viewed as insignificant) be placed alongside morality (which I viewed as the meaning to life)? As I realized that most people don't care about morality and think that it's subjective, I started desperately digging deeper, as my entire meaning of existence was being challenged. Finally, I realized that meaning MUST come from morality after all, because for anyone to ever make any choice, there has to be an evaluation function as to which choice is more valuable; and when you break down the reasoning for why one choice is more valuable than another, it always comes down to morality at the base layer. But what are moral axioms? How do we decide what is moral? And I realized, beauty is actually central to this question, because utilitarian/pragmatic philosophies make no sense, because they are circular in nature; because something gives a benefit, it is good, but what is a benefit? How do we define base-layer, first principles, intrinsic goodness and badness? Beauty seems to be the key, or at least one glimpse into the most base layer of intrinsic goodness.

physical ,too i think since we experience life trough our body and the value we give to things or decisions (related to moral)

I think dosteovsky wanted to tell us abt how we should perceive beauty. Not moral beauty only. I think what makes beauty beautiful is our interpretation of beauty. If we can see beauty in ugly we would be seen as moral beauty as well

​​@@przemyslawskoczylas5183 How do you know that there aren't other species with that capability? I would argue many non-human animals are often more "humane" than humans.

There’s actually a good argument in there lol

'Food is an implement of magic, and only the most coldhearted rationalist could squeeze the juices of life out of it and make it bland. In a true sense, a cookbook is the best source of psychological advice and the kitchen the first choice of room for a therapy of the world.' - Thomas More

I think you are missing the forest for the trees with JP. Yeah, he talks in these weird riddles that are not logically concise or rigorous just to sound eloquent, but instead of trying to poke holes into every opposing view, you should be trying to steelman them; to see where their value lies and whether there's something worth taking or not. I think JP's view is that modern-day people, at least "intellect people" are too full of themselves in thinking they are perfectly rational or that their methods are perfectly rational, but they miss the fact that utilitarianism/consequentialism/empirical based reasoning requires a perfect evaluation function. And yet, they mostly ignore the evaluation function because it's extremely hard, and so their entire view becomes circular; something is good because it gives a benefit. And yet, there is no definition for what a benefit even is; so no matter how much logic or empirical reasoning you use, this entire type of thought process doesn't work because you have no evaluation function.

unless the statue is life size, and his junk only looks small because he's 17' high...

Classical statuary had small penises because in Ancient Greek culture large penises were a sign of barbarism.

@@hairharbor5080 still are it seems

wow did not know that we have so much beuty her in germany ---gut good to know!

This is like Robert Frost's "The Road Not Taken". A fair number of people consider it the greatest poem of the English language, but not many of them know he was being sarcastic and actually making fun of the idea that some small and mundane choice can romantically alter your life completely.

More to it than that. Beauty, Goodness and Truth are three transcendentals of Greek philosophy and then incorporated into the Christian tradition; three universal aspects of Reality/God. They correspond to the aesthetic, moral and intellectual capabilities of the human soul respectively. Beauty per se certainly doesn’t bring death, but worshipping the form over the essence Dostoevsky would take issue with, it being a type of idol worship.

@@libertyprime9307 Can you explain more on how he was being sarcastic?

@@flyingspaghettimonster2925 I think I already did "making fun of the idea that some small and mundane choice can romantically alter your life completely."

no

Yes! But not despite this pain, but because of this pain, remember Dostojewsky said ;" suffering is the sole origin of consciousness " !

Van Gogh is a terrible example of an artist.

Any medium, words, images, sounds, dance, movies, video games; if it conveys an ideal it is beautiful. If it conveys nothing, it is merely words.

Prince Myshkin makes me proud every time someone calls me an 'idiot' !

@@Jannette-mw7fg i too join you in that! as a fellow idiot 😜

Keep on going man, your not fucked up this world is, this is what I tell myself atleast haha, and well quite frankly its true. For sure this isn't the way humanity is suppose to live but we never know what tomorrow may bring. Get yourself on a schedule doing stuff if possible, start off doing 1 thing every day then 2 things, stuff like this, where it could be as simple as drinking a glass of water or going for a walk or some kind of exercise, I get really depressed if I don't have something to be passionate about too, so you should find something to do with your time that you can be passionate towards and maybe even make a living out of. If you want anymore tips feel free to comment here.

And if you can't find a passion to invest in, try to wrap your head around just making money, and getting yourself ready to get a job, you really can't do much in this world without money. hope you the best, just know alot of people are in your shoes, and everyone says they can help you, but sooner or later you will realize the only person that can fix yourself, is yourself. I've been on anti-depressants many times and they really help with energy and anxiety but it always comes back so thats why I say to focus on yourself haha. I don't think you want to be forever on pills! But don't be ashamed to get medicine if you think you need it, it will take ALOT of the edge off, if it is in fact unbearable.

@@boolean711 thanks for your kind words and thank you for your time! Wish you the best as well! 👍👍👍

@@bochica3562 thanks!!

@@boolean711 I liked a lot of what you said, but to reduce the meaning/motivation of life to making money gives an extremely bad taste in my mouth.

Lovely

Wrong. By treating beauty as a completely subjective concept, you're removing any real meaning from that concept. Beauty is based on an objective reality which can manifest in a subjective manner, but isn't absolutely subjective. You can't just call anything “beautiful”: A deformed, unfinished and disturbing drawing made by a crazy person isn't beautiful, but a classical painting usually is. You are not a god so as to be able to create your own notion of beauty: It is something us humans can recognize and emulate. And not everyone has beauty within, some people are actually ugly inside, and it's usually those who reject God in their hearts and end up departing from real beauty. God is the creator and author of beauty. Rejection of God, atheism, leads to all kinds of meaningless subjectivity: From moral relativism, to this stupid and absurd relativism of beauty, because it no longer has a solid foundation and seems to be able to become just anything you want it to be, regardless of how corrupt, ignorant, stupid and malevolent someone may be, or whatever this or that society or culture claims is beautiful. That would be deceitful, and it's what post-modernism is about. The war on beauty is part of the ancient, evil rebellion against God. No wonder evil -people are ugly- turns people ugly.

​@@ryanbest2030 No.

@@arvaneret_329 it is funny how you can be absolutely certain of god (completely uncertain even if you choose to have faith) but not if someones ugly mother is beautiful to them or not

@@ryanbest2030 It is curious how you can feel so certain while making little sense typing that comment. Is it because you're lying? But, hey, looks like I nailed it when making the connection between the deconstruction of beauty into complete subjectivity, and godlessness, with my other comment. The fool has said in his heart: “There is no God!” What proof and evidence can you provide that would finally, at last prove atheism is accurate and correct? You cannot, other than “I just don't think there's good evidence, I'm not convinced”. Closing your eyes and covering your ears won't cancel the reality of God. The evidence abounds for the existence of a Creator and is all around you because it's self-evident, but if you pretend to be blind and can't see it, there are several examples: DNA as a codified language, the fine-tuning of the universe, archaeological findings confirming Biblical stories, the experiences of millions of people across the centuties, the historical facts of the life of Jesus Christ, argument from beauty, Kalam cosmological argument, mathematical patterns in nature, the fact that we live in an intelligible and orderly universe that science can actually dig into as opposed to a meaningless, chaotic universe that shouldn't exist, etc.

yeah yeah great argument. without beauty nothing is worth saving anyways so there

i think many people overestimate their ability to read body language and how much body language even matters. thats my 2cents.

@@MarsLonsen People probably do. Dogs don’t.

@@tommyrq180 sure

I have a number of my own little doodles in cheap frames hung up here and there in the house, and I have a couple of competent paintings of flowers from thrift stores, and a few prints of Aboriginal art. If I catch myself worrying about what they say about 'my taste', I take that as a sign of weakness of character - I mean, do I want to live my life fretting about what Jordan Peterson would think? These things bring me a measure of joy, and they're there for me, not to impress some aesthete who I invite home after a wine-and-cheese reception at the faculty lounge.

fair argument. He would probably argue that there arent any words for such a fundamental thing that arent religious. something being divine isnt scientific, its theologic right? what word could he use for "that which continuously saves the world", in your opinion?

Isn’t there only one fundamental axiom? I think therefore I am

Love is the opposite of Hate. Many generals conquer not for the love of their people. But for the hatred of the enemy. Love n Hate are cyclical.

Love, Money/Power - the only reason to do anything at all… love money and power - absolutely I do! What would I do if I had at least one of the 3 to really nurture?

Your Awesome n a realistic example of Love. You plant seeds, which can grow into something that someone loves n appreciates. Even if you never see it. Like a compliment to a person. You never see the end result. You also never hear what your compliment meant to that person. You just do it. Thats love. IMO.

have you tried Mathiola Bicornis (the night scented stock)? Is very powerful, you smell from several metres away.

I haven’t tried it. I get seeds from my local library free.

@@reginafefifofina You get about 200 seeds for about 2 euro or so. I highly recommend you try them next in spring. Generally i'm not that into flowers, but these blew me away. At night they also atttract hoardes of tiny white moths in the summer, like a snow storm.

I’m having a personal financial emergency right now. If I ever get to the point to buy your suggested flowers and illegally plant them and maintain them - I definitely will!

Fear of seeing their OWN inner ugliness.

@@TopSecretInformations that's true too but not what I was saying. People love beautiful things. They collect things and take pictures and do art. Even obsess over trying to look like what they think is beautiful. Trying to retain youth and avoid aging even. Horror movies scare people because they often use graphic ugly monsters. I mean it's not complicated. And this Jordan guy is saying people are afraid of beauty. Get real buddy.

Your brilliant criticism enhances his life as much as your own. Some of us are our own worst enemy.

A Douche.. is surrounded by his own baggage..!

It’s quite an achievement for a thorny bush to have a fruit tree- like structure 😄 Are grapes gathered from thornbushes?

Don't run from the truth. You can change your life.

😅😅....which god?

Most people are pseudo intellectual They feel intelligent when they read classic literature

You know... I haven't tried to read Crime and Punishment in many years. I need to again. But this type of comment makes me think you are the kind of person that would read Moby Dick and think it was about Whales and Whaling.

@@benjaminroe311ify OR it’s an overhyped book that pseudo intellectuals use to make themselves feel intelligent.

You lack culture.

If lesbians count as gays, I'm all for gay sex, as long as they film it

He's a science guy.

Neither are greater than St. Gregory Palamas.

​@@ElonMuskrat-my8jy or Maximus the Confessor or John Crysostom, but for me only the genius of Balthasar was capable of dismantling the ethical prison Immanuel Kant built for us, for only Balthasar could reveal the fundamental flaw in Kant's system, what was just another man-made philosophical prison more elaborate than any other wayward theologian-philosopher had wrought in all of human history. But Kant's system was already deconstructed in narrative form in Dostoevsky's first great novel, Notes From Underground, Balthasar simply elaborating on that hilarious deconstruction, accomplishing what every philosopher and theologian before him failed at. Yes, Palamas saw and revealed with pure clarity how even Christians would kill off the transcendent, trinitarian light to grab some material benefit (what is destroying humanity like never before during this postmodern age, Satan's greatest reign in all of human history). His contribution was-is grand, but no one has traveled the depths of the human soul like Balthasar. To get a sense of this, I recommend his book, Love Alone is Credible, in which St. Gregory Palamas is heard loud and clear.

​@@ElonMuskrat-my8jy We cannot move forward theologically and philosophically until Kant is thoroughly deconstructced, for his singular task was to return us to the Law as a way of life, not understanding that love (agape) alone can free us from the impossible dictates of the Law, the Matrix Kant traps us in, trapped in the Law where we miss out on the transcendent Light (again, Palamas' concern). And it just occurred to me that Jean-Luc Marion's book, God Without Being, might be the best place to start in following the logic that deconstructs Kant's suffocating ethical prison with its hell of reciprocity, especially in Marion's exposition that distinguises between idol and Icon, what the East has gifted to us through its depth understanding of what constitutes that distinguishing phenomenon, also revealed in Andrei Tarkovsky's film, Andrei Rublev.

He’s not Christian

Axiom

No kidding. This reminds me of when one of Sam's debates with him boiled down to "I can do this with a cook book, let's say "boil" actually means cleanse, and "meat" is analogous to the soul or essence, so boiling meat actually means to cleanse the soul, you just have to be clever enough to understand it." Well, also Jordan is highly reliant on pre-rehearsed speeches. We're all guilty of taking a topic into grounds we've already walked carefully, but Jordan does this even more than most people to the extent that it's a bit silly.

There are no broader shoulders that the living stand upon than the Bible: it isn't possible to begin a subject that doesn't stand upon the shoulders of those who came before us, thats his passive transcendent point. Make a different face for your position in the totem tower of existence, be as "novel" as you like, just know that you'll never be the foundation, and never create some unknown image. If you listened to the lecture he said that only someone who is confused or epistomologically ignorant beyong comprehension would deny that their life contains fundamental axioms.....sooo which are you? Confused or epistomologically ignorant beyond comprehension?

Well in all fairness... MOST of all classic literature in the Western World and the ideas and themes therein are ones that are borrowed or built upon from the Bible. Whether it be Chaucer, Dante, Milton, Shakespeare, and then later those authors that built on those... I mean... yeah you can tie MANY things and symbols in books and life to the Bible. Go figure.