Joseph Smith's First Vision (Pt 1)-Dan Vogel 

A reupload. Well at least you're back.

If God the Father and his son Jesus Christ appeared to you in a vision, as described in 1838 account and the one accepted and taught in the LDS Church, you would never tell that event any differently than exactly the way it happened. Of course unless you made it up and then it would be very different to keep your stories straight.

DARIC? SO YOU ARE A LAWYER NOW? HAHAHAHA MOST PEOPLE FIND JOSEPH SMITH'S REPORTS CONSISTENT TRY READING THE BIBLE AND SEE IF THE SAME EVENT IS NOT DIFFERENT IN DIFFERENT GOSPELS.

hahaha you are a liar...

Did you see the comment that I left Vogel in his pt 2 video? I left the comment 4 days ago. I proved that he's a LIAR!

+Richard Holmes well, thank you for sharing your viewpoint too Richard.

Vogel said that there were no revivals in Palmyra in 1820. Although one can simply Google ''Answering the CES Letter You Tube'' Then see the video ''Answering the CES Letter 22 to 23 First Vision PART 2'' around the 8:18 min mark. They CLEARLY show the Palmyra register, the Palmyra register showed proof of the revivals.

Google ''Answering the CES Letter 22 to 23 First Vision part 2 You Tube'' It CLEARLY covers all of this. It's shown around the 8:18 min mark, did you read my last comment?

RE-READ my last comment!

I'm not bothered by differences in small detail like age, but the changes seem to coincide with doctrinal changes dealing with the nature of the Godhead. The purpose of the vision seems to have also evolved with JS's understanding of the restoration and authority. I understand how memory works and don't doubt your account of your own experiences, but I'm wary about using it apologetically to get out of a historical problem. It seems you would never be able to show development in anyone at any time and no way to falsify the faulty-memory theory. On the other hand, intention doesn't really matter. What matters is the evolution in the sources, which as I say ties into a larger development. Thanks for watching and commenting. If you understand the issues better, I think I've done my job.

The Bible teaches Jesus is an eternal being. He had no beginning. J.S. made up a different God which the bible foretold would happen. The Bible also tells us many will be deceived. I care about you. Colossians 1:17 states, “He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” Christ as the eternal Son of God existed before all creation. Since Christ is “before all things,” He did not depend on anyone or anything for His creation or existence. John 1:1 shows Jesus is eternal and has no beginning. John wrote, “In the beginning was the word.” Scripture indicates that the universe was not created in time, but that time itself was created along with the universe. In other words, time was not already in existence when God created the world. The world was created with time rather than in time. Back before the creation of time and matter mentioned in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 lay a beginningless eternity. The verb was is in the imperfect tense indicating continued existence. So Jesus did not come into existence at some point in eternity past, He always existed. There has never been a point where He was not in existence. In John 8:58 Jesus tells the religious leaders, “Before Abraham was born, I am.” Jesus is identifying Himself as the eternal God quoting the words from Exodus 3:14. For this reason the Jews were seeking to stone Him for the crime of blasphemy. The words “I am” or “Yahweh” in the Hebrew language is the verb, to be. This name conveys the meaning of eternal self-existence. Yahweh, whom Jesus is identifying with, is eternal and beyond the realm of time. Abraham came to exist at a point in time, but Jesus never had a beginning. He is uncreated and eternal. Since the Bible teaches the eternal nature of Christ, He cannot be a procreated being as Mormon doctrine teaches.

That is a sad story (my condolences), but my problem with his accounts is more along the lines of God being missing entirely from the first account. In your real-life example, that would be like leaving your father out of your account, which would be more problematic than getting the dates wrong. I have a similar problem with dramatic events that I do not like to ponder. When recalling the event, I might leave out details because the entire memory "hurts" to recall. Or, in some cases, are too overwhelming to remember all the details every single time.

Glad you find it helpful.

Keep me and my words out of your mouth

not true when you tell an experience when retelling especially when young each time your mind can hghlight or bring up a different part. Everyone does that.

Bullshit. That event would be so profound a person would never tell it any differently than exactly what happened. Unless of course you made the story up, then it would be very difficult to keep all the details straight. If both God and Christ appeared to you, both God and Christ would be the center of the story every single time you told the story. Yet in a written account in Smith's own hand, he leaves out this important detail - the 1832 account.

The account may change in the small details, but it's unreasonable to assume he wouldn't highlight there were two personages! Not just any personages. We are talking about God here! Plus Dan makes a very good point that his purpose of inquiry is different in each account

The first written story was in 1842, not 1832 - as you wrote. The sequence was: claimed date of vision-1820; his arrest & conviction for fraud-1826; He organized the Church - 1830; First Vision story- 1842; and forward ......

Joseph Smith hand wrote a version of the first vision in 1832. The official Church accepted vision was published in 1838, not 1842. Please stop lying to people. The information you wrote is false and wrong, Grandpa Smith. It is very well documented and included in the Church's own records. www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng

This will expand and replace the other video.

Before trash talking the Masons, be sure to include the fact that George Washington himself was a Master Mason.

@@cdowis it doesn't help your case dummy the Smith wouldn't even more satanic than George Washington you dummy his occult claim of "priesthood" which is anti biblical priest hood and Anti non is free Masonic in origin.

@@cdowis yes, he was, but masonic rituals have no place in getting one to heaven.

.....also, George Washington isn't telling me I'm deceived and that I'm gonna be in the "lowest kingdom of heaven" 😂😂😂 if not "outer darkness" because Joseph Smith is liar and I'm not afraid of the Mormon judgement in any way. Christ of the Bible is THE WAY through Salvation. There is nothing new under the 🌞 and Josephs "myth" 😉 doctrines are found nearly 2 hundred times in ancient apocryphal writings. The oldest lie ever told was that we can be like God and Mormons took the bait.

?

@@richardholmes7199 ??

@@MrNetMan11 ?

@@MrNetMan11 Not sure how you could have concluded Joseph Smith was a fraud.

Bom fraud is the basis for the moron kullltt even though in almost totally refutes and condemns all moron occult practice.

Lol and smoked some weed to probably.

Nobody really knows but he’s not the only person of that era that allegedly had visions.

From what I have read the most charitable thing I can state regarding the character of Joseph Smith is that he was an undiagnosed skitzophrenic.

@@julianciahaconsulting8663 For me, Joseph Smith was one of the remarkable truth seekers of his day.

@@martinandersen9810 Come on you really believe this? Time to wake up Martin. Martin Harris thought just like you Martin but Mrs Harris knew all along that Smith was a fraud

GRANDPA SMITH YES WE CAN

No. Sadly Mormons don't respect the Bible enough to realize the 1st Vision cannot happen if they adhere to what the New Testament teaches.

Joshua huh? Do you know anything about Mormons? Yea support Dan the atheist.

Well when one reads the book of mormon one is asking if the contents of the stories in the b of mormon are true and since many believe the b of mormon is fabricated or made up it is no less different than most of the books of the old and new testament which have all been made up as stories later referred to as scripture, and since all three books teach that jesus is the way back to a hevenly existence it matterth not if you believe one and not the other as they all serve the same purpose and god is no respector of persons. If you dont believe in a christian god concept why bother trying to destroy other belief system other than you getting pleasure from spoiling others faith because you have none.

Anthony, why do you care? You seem to portray yourself as an objective observer, but then you wouldn't be on this RU-vid page, so I'm going to assume you're actually LDS. Why destroy a belief system? I suppose when it is false and hurts people.

😀

@Jeff Carlin How do you explain, the order of our existence,? Laws of thermodynamics, chemistry, physics, astronomy? What is the origin of knowledge ? How can nothing become something as would be the case of all creation?

@Jeff Carlin I have no desire to try to influence your beliefs, but man is somewhat like the cockroach on the kitchen floor who thinks that it understands all that exists. None of us know what we don't know. By the way I don't automatically discount any of your examples.

@Jeff Carlin Just a thought, have you ever seen intelligence ? We see the results produced through intelligence, but I don't recall of having ever seen an intelligence or some intelligences. To me this puts in question that everything that exists is available for our examination. I recognize that we have tests to measure what results from intelligence.

@Jeff Carlin Excuse me if I have not understood your position correctly that you do not subscribe to the concept of supernatural intelligence being the instrument that brought the earth, ourselves, and all that we observe into existence. If all is a product of brain, how did it come into existence. The human brain does not control the universe, so this leads to a higher brain to generate a higher intelligence. My expression may be a bit awkward but I think the idea is expressed. If intelligence is not tangible how do we determine that it is not all around us?

Anoche anoche, le rompieron el culo a Chaya Bat-Tzvi

First, something so dramatic as your first experience of meeting God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ, how would you ever tell that story any differently than what happened. Smith wrote his experience in 1832 and it is different than the 1838 official version. Even if you waited to write it down, how would you ever forget the details of such an experience - especially who appeared to you. If you wrote the story down, you would include both the Father and the Son in the first handwritten account. But at that time, Joseph Smith still believed in the one God of the bible. The separate personages doctrine came later and so conveniently the 1838 official account expanded the first vision to include separate personages for the Father and the Son.

@Carlin One can simply Google ''Answering the CES Letter 22 to 23 First Vision part 2 You Tube'' Those two videos clearly DEBUNK THE LIES presented by Dan Vogel on the above video.

No, Richard, they do not. They are just another example of Mormon apologists trying to defend the indefensible. Jeremy's "Debunking FairMormon's Debunking"on this subject can be found here: cesletter.org/debunking-fairmormon/first-vision.html I challenge you to read it.

Put your money where your MOUTH is. Google ''Answering the CES Letter 22 to 23 the First Vision You Tube''. That video DEBUNKS your inconsiderate anti-Mormon community's LIES! See that video, THEN GET BACK WITH ME on how that it is wrong. Will be standing by.

Richard, please just stop. This video and others which follow are how you academically look at LDS History. Dan is very fair and more importantly weighs all available records in their context. As the father of a child with special needs I always want to encourage people in your situation to learn and grow. These are complex issues and if you are patient and let the facts speak for themselves and not rush to find what answer you want you will be better for it. We are trying to be patient but you are too easily persuaded by unimportant ideas put forth by unprofessional and very flawed people like your hero Paul. I understand your limitations and we can explain anything you need help with. Learn to view things in their context culturally and historically, not just by a cherry-picking or cut-and-paste of things you want to hear or support. Good luck!

If you mean by "they," the Smith family. You are wrong. They joined the Presbyterian Church in Palmyra, NY.

Dan Vogel you are right, man I actually got into a debate last year about this very subject, he was saying Joseph Smith Jr was a member of the Methodist Church, and I remember correctly it was, but the information is you put out is correct. Thanks for getting back to me. Have you noticed changes in things, such as Unicorns in the Bible, or corn in the old testament, or bottles in the New Testament, do you remember the first sentence in Genesis It was In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth, now it's Heaven, singular, this is wrong it was always Heavens plural. Have you noticed this?

Horrid time in deception anti restore and pure apostasy and damning you are deceived by devils like satan.

Thus one of devils most smart tricks is use false words like "restore" to deceive. True christians are true restorers and prove it.

Anytime is wonderful to be alive. But, to rejoice in lies and fairy tales is a sad commentary on your life.

@@susangroom960 The only thing that is perhaps more sad would be to have once had a testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and to have squandered that away because of the pointed fingers of those crying from the great and spacious building. Not only is the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ a Godsend, it blesses my life and gives tremendous purpose and meaning. I hope you have a joyous and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. This time is a gift.

@@martinandersen9810 all of time is a gift. Im sorry you are unwilling to learn the truth. I have never pointed fingers, and that story is a story Joseph Smith learned from his father. Please please do your due diligence.

Your holier-than-thou attitude is the major reason that I discovered that the Church is NOT TRUE! I was hooked, line and sinker, in the Mormon Church for 42 years. I endured this holier-than-thou attitude from leaders all my years in the Church. Finally, after my abusive high priest husband died with his attitude, I had opportunity to look outside the Mormon box. Since I’m not “controlled” by the active Mormon narrative anymore that it is unbecoming a good Mormon to consider a fact that does not meet men’s emotional narrative, I finally learned truth - you know, those pesky things that can get in the way of an emotional “Mormon testimony”. I Thank my God, I’m done with the abusive Mormons in my life!!!

@@gailcapshaw397 Hello GaIl I thought I was able to have dialogue with Mormons but looks like Martin Andersen erased his comments 🤔? Anyhow congratulations on your awakening from the Mormon cult. They will convince themselves that they hold the one and only truth and then try to get others to follow them

Blessing? Contrary to what the devil has been portaited to humans on earth, he ia not a been with red face, horns and a arrow pointed tail. He actually can appear as an angel of light. He "blesses his obedient children," or his evil offsprings would not today enjoy so much wealth and even fame. You need to understand that the devil protects, blesses, encourages, shows "miracles," give helping hands to those who are obedient in following a lie, a receptive life. In turn the deceived will go and cater his"truths" to others, as long as the spell of deception is not broken, the individual "enjoys relative peace, wellbeing and prosperity." Though the devil hates these individuals, he is clever enough to appear as "holy" and pure the unsuspected individuals and lure them to sure piritual death. Many, many cases in LDS culture good people experience incredible hardships, accidents, even commit suicide, get entangled in prescription drugs, depression is among LDS women, highest in the nation. So, you have to question these things how they don't check with utopic reality bevery LDS person should be living in. After all, "its the only true church on the face if the earth." In anti LDS circles its religious tenants its called, "The Impossible Gospel." Of course it will be impossible simply because its headed by none else but Lucufer himself. He heads not just one church, he heads all churches, been of Christian denominations or any other current of believe. Jesus Christ gives peace, lasting peace, serenity, calmness, a sure conviction that the individual is accepted of Him and loved without conditions. No buildings are needed to go to Him and commune with Him, He is everywhere through the Holy Spirit. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God. So, receive your "blessings" I guaranteed you will have to pay back very dearly. Jesus Christ is God Almighty, NOT the brother of satan. Come to Jesus Christ where salvation is free, let before him your cares and He will give you rest. Amen!

@@maxipower6932 Were you ever a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints, my friend? Have you ever prayerfully read the Book of Mormon, or the Bible, as I have done? I appreciate your love for the Lord Jesus Christ, but I have never found another faith that is as beneficial to those who accept it and who live by it, as this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is the stone cut out of a mountain without hands. It surpasses all expectations, and yields answers as well as results. LDS woman, rather than being depressed, are among the most fortunate and wonderful women on earth. They are among the most beautiful, outgoing, courageous, energetic, and dedicated women on earth. Yes, Jesus is our Savior, and our Redeemer. He is our mediator with The Father, which is also His Father.

Martin Andersen the answer is yes ... and the “Massive Mormon Manipulation Machine” has been documented verified and proven to be a massive deception! Lies beyond comprehension... lies so big people refuse to believe they are lies. So so pathetic

@@martinandersen9810 I have been a member since birth. Graduated from Seminary, served a mission, married in the temple, served in Presidencies, ward mission leader, teacher in all classes, paid tithing and fast offerings and gave most my life to the church. I’ve read the scriptures, prayed, fasted, attended the temple and yet, I never felt good enough. The church and its teachings tell you you are a fallen person who must continually be making up for you imperfections by good works, and yet even that is not enough. I was never enough. I was bound to the church and it’s infallible leaders to do it’s bidding. I had to bow my head and say yes. The church had control over my happiness. The church had control over what I chose to consume. The church had control over my sexual life from adolescence through marriage. The Church had control over 10% of my hard earned money. The Church had control over my thinking because “when the prophet speaks, the thinking is over.” And all the while, the Church told me that because of my belief and obedience, that I was better/holier than others. I had something others didn’t and I had to always be an example of the perfect Church member so that others would “see His image in my countenance.” But how could I do that when I felt so far from perfections? I had to pretend! I had to put on my best face and become a liar! I had to perpetuate the false happiness that we were supposed to enjoy. The mental strain was enormous and caused me to act out in ways that were very harmful to myself and others. And in speaking to many other members and ex-members, they have experienced the same thing. What a relief to let it go and leave these toxic teachings behind. What a relief to finally be emotionally and mentally mature. No longer talked down to from the pulpit like a child. No longer expected to act like a child to my church superiors. What a relief to take control of MY OWN LIFE. What a relief to see these leaders for what they are, just regular people with no more connection to heaven than I have on my own. I can still be a good person, a loving person, a faithful person, without the masterful lies and deceit of the church.

@@bluesfrequency - It's not the church that you disregard and disrespect. You can certainly do as you please, but know that it is your Savior that you trample. Your parents raised you well and evidently taught you as Moses directed the children of Israel to do, so it is not unique to one faith to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and to give head to those He places to guide you. Just continue to pray and to read the scriptures and to love your wife and family and to do the best you can. He will supply the rest.

Sure it did. Sure it did. Go take a nap.,

“Yet the event occurred” ... oh my ... which one??? There are at least 8 separate known “first vision” accounts - all of which are totally different! Wake up dude! The first account was not even heard of until over 2 years after the Book of Mormon was published !!! What the??? The Mormon church uses the FOURTH documented account as the “official version” .... so pathetic... the false Mormon prophets and apostles NEVER taught these facts. In fact they whitewashed it all ... making their members believe Joseph Smith was telling everyone about his “first vision” when he was in his teens!!! What a total sham ... so so sad to watch you bury your head in the sand and “self inflict” yourself with blindness and deafness.. your in a quasi Christian cult and you refuse to believe it.

@@RB-zh1eq Are you STILL AVOIDING comment on the reality of the Egyptologists being debunked?

Their so-called testimonies don't work plus they never saw the plates themselves they claim they start with your spirit eyes and other words occult practice mysticism and gnosticism all which Jesus and his disciples condemned and completely totally fake.

Richard Holmes you are not temple worthy. Your church leaders have already told you a not to do a Google search. You are non-compliant. Now keep paying tithes 💰 and wait until your church leaders say you can enter the temple.

No dumbass is differences and details events stories characters plots you are a total liar and you have no power whatsoever what is huge differences in complete total contradiction it makes you wonder if he even tried to pray to begin with what he was really doing.

6 different s stories all conflicting the only thing they have in common is that they are claims or prayer or question asking but their approaches ill-formed in flawed.

Sorry sorry old man you don't know what you're talkin about

AH my favorite Mormon racist pig, you still think all blacks are cursed there mormon?

Yeah right cdowis. I'm sure it's all straightened out now. The only card you get to play in this whole debate is the "God told me it's true" card. The weight of actual evidence is heavily towards Joseph as a fraud.

Matt 16 [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. What greater witness than from God himself?

cdowis, Nice. That's the only real defence for LDS. I haven't met any members before that have had an actual visitation from God or angels confirming the whole thing. That must have been amazing.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-d96c3dzZBmA.html

@@cdowis Nice. So Bednar basically admits he has no idea what's going on. No visions. No revelations. Just a foggy day where he thinks he can see a few steps ahead. That video actually undermines the Mormon narrative and scripture, which emphasises bold visions, visitations and revelations. Since no-one in the church receives those anymore, the leaders have been dabbling for decades with an almost eastern / metaphysical kind of inspiration. That's fantastic, but from experience it works better once the misconceptions of Mormonism are put aside.

I typically do not respond to personal attacks, but I think your unprofessional assessment that I must be suffering from “an obsessive disorder” deserves a response. I’m a historian. That’s my job. I’ve chosen Joseph Smith as my specialty. Like anyone, I show up for work every day and give it my best effort. Day after day, year after year. I’m no different than anyone else that has a job. Rather than trying to psychoanalyze and attack me personally, I’d rather hear analysis of my work. To do otherwise is cognitively lazy.

What an idiotic - pathetically lazy - straight up stupid response to Dan Vogels work. Sprite News just made a name for themself - “ignorant idiot”

Get a life. Don’t attack a man’s mental health just because you don’t like him criticizing your false prophet.

That's a total strominger speaking right there and making false big fancy words doesn't do anything if you can't back it up any idiot can only Babble that use fancy words in their battle it doesn't do anything do you know what scholarship even is.

@@danvogel6802 it's self-deceit and just admitting that they're wrong and they can't answer

Nobody will answer you! Because most "Christians" are polytheists. They have the son, father and holy ghost. All are one, but each is separate. Go figure. Jesus was A Jew. He never teached the trinity. And he said who changes one point in the bible is not of God. And that's exactly what Christians do. I see you realized that.

You're church is a fraud. Christianity is a fraud. Mormonism is cult created by a con man. Does that answer you?

Wes Walters said "Palmyra," some want to quibble since JS said "my neighborhood" and he lived in Manchester township. However, JS said in the revival his mother and siblings were converted to Presbyterianism, and they attended church in Palmyra. The Smiths conducted business in Palmyra but in 1820 their cabin was just within Palmyra township and about 1822 move just over the line into Manchester. Their center of activity and therefore their "neighborhood" was Palmyra, not Manchester.

@@danvogel6802 You should feel so much better now. There is so much that we can criticise him about, but not this.

@@cdowis Your attitude is reflective of the overall attitude of Mormons. Reading your pettiness made me very thankful that I don’t have to listen to such arrogant nonsense from a pulpit at a place people call God’s house anymore.

@@cdowis Wow, thats bad even for you with your past statements Mormon. I think i would even prefer the Stolen valor Mormon Henochparks who lied about being in the rangers and having the silver star (not being smart enough to realize the US keeps a list of Silver Star Recipients) over you.

@@cdowis Wake up and smell the coffee since drinking it will keep you out of god's presence.

Where Oliver Gowdry said the plates never existed. After he said he saw them. Read what Paul said in Galatians 1st Chapter about if an angel of light appear to him.

@@michaelquarry6433 Who is Oliver Gowdery? He may have said that, but Oliver Cowdery testified == And we also testify that we have SEEN the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been SHOWN unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we BEHELD and SAW THE PLATES, and the engravings thereon;

@@cdowis Joseph Smith is a sexual predator. With OTHER MENS WIVES. TOTAL CREEP. Is it Mormons, or MORONS?

Google ''Answering the CES Letter First Vision part 2 You Tube'' That video will help you to see that the information that Dan Vogel is presenting on the above video has been DEBUNKED!

cdowis, Hello there. My understanding is, that the entire area was under revival during the younger Joseph's day. Hence that whole area has been called the burned over District.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-X2e4WSjx1pA.html JOSEPH SMITH THE PROPHET ??? The prophecies of Joseph Smith? They did NOT come true! Here are seven of his major prophecies that FAILED: Prophecy # 1 - The Coming of the Lord Prophecy # 2 - David W. Patten to go on a mission Prophecy # 3 - The United States Government to be overthrown in a few years Prophecy # 4 - Congress to be broken up as a government Prophecy # 5 - Finding Treasure in Salem, Massachusetts Prophecy # 6 - Pestilence, Hail, Famine & Earthquake to Destroy the Wicked Prophecy # 7 - Temple to be Built in Zion, Missouri ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-X2e4WSjx1pA.html mit.irr.org/failed-prophecies-of-joseph-smith ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RuzmdtP5VRI.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-X2e4WSjx1pA.html (very detailed) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JaOFZzMFMoM.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-X2e4WSjx1pA.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-9gaFFMKQYRc.html Here's what the Bible says about prophets and prophecy: >>>>>> Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves." >>>>>> Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." #

Your approach embodies Mormon apologetics so well, cdowis. Never concrete or direct, always relying on word play and obscure technicalities. Apologetics in Mormonism basically = "You can only prove us 99.9% wrong, so that .1% makes us 100% right" Sad.

@@Spaseebo Here are several Bible prophecies not fulfilled Each of these Biblical prophets give UNCONDITIONAL prophecies. 1. Jonah prophecy -- Jonah 3 [4] And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. result -- Jonah gave an UNCONDITIONAL prophecy, and it failed. 2. Isaiah prophecy -- Isa 38 [1] In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live. result -- Isaiah gave an UNCONDITIONAL prophecy, and it failed. Hezekiah did not die for another fifteen years 3.Nathan -- prophecy -- 2 Sam 7 [2] That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains. [3] And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee. Nathan result -- Nathan gave an UNCONDITIONAL prophecy, and it failed. David did not build the temple, but his son built it. These three Bible prophets failed your test. YOU say they are false prophets, but GOD says they are true prophets. YOU are the one who has failed the test by renouncing God's true prophets.

@@cdowis Vogel isn't an "anti Mormon." He's an objective seeker of truth. Some people simply want answers to their questions instead of simply choosing to believe what they want and defending their belief arbitrarily. Are you writing him off as anti Mormon simply because his beliefs don't align with yours? I don't see any place where he has slandered the church or its members.

If you watch the videos, you might not be so eager to give us these Sunday School lessons. There is no nuance in quoting random statements. For example, if Joseph Smith saw two personages in 1820, which he didn’t, how did that teach him that God, the Father, has a body? As I explained I explained, Joseph Smith didn’t always teach that there were three gods. Quoting NT passages like a missionary where it appears the Father and Son are separate doesn’t help because those passages are interpreted differently by different believers. So I suggest that you discard your apologetic approach and look at how the concept of the godhead developed during Joseph Smith’s lifetime. You might want to start with Charles Harrell’s book “This is My Doctrine,” published by Kofford Books in 2011. He has taught at BYU and is a faithful Mormon, but a more nuanced one than you appear to be.

@ James McCluskey. You put in quotations, but without citing the source, "That which is without body or parts is nothing. There is no other God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones." Consequently, you are saying that the Holy Spirit is "nothing," and three questions are begged, either; (1) the Holy Spirit is not God; or (2) the Holy Spirit is not in heaven; or (3) both, the Holy Spirit is not God and not in heaven. Can you explain what you mean more clearly, and cite the source of your quote above? Matt. 3:16, says that when Jesus was baptized and came up out of the water that, "...lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting on him." This event is also recorded in Mark 1:10-11; John 1:32-33, and Luke 3:22. Luke uses the phrase, "Holy Ghost," instead of the phrase, "Spirit of God," which indicates that they are synonymous terms. John 1:32, says that John saw the Spirit "descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode on him." Which indicates that the Holy Spirit came from heaven. 1 John 5:7, says, "For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (Unless you are reading from a Bible where that verse has been removed by modern scholars. However, the Mormon Bible I have is a KJV where that verse is present.) So, if the Holy Spirit is in heaven, and on earth, are you still claiming that it is "nothing," because the Holy Spirit doesn't have a "body or parts" of flesh and bone? Further, you say that, "The Father Prepared a Body for the Son," according to Heb. 10:5, and that "Jesus Was WITH the Father before the World Began," according to John 1:1-3, 14; 17:5, 24. So, if Jesus didn't have a "body or parts" until the one prepared for him by the Father, are you saying that he was "nothing" and not God when he was with the Father before the world began? According to John 1:1, it says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," and in John 1:14, it says, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth," when referring to Jesus, and explained in the verses afterward. So, are you saying that Jesus was "nothing," and not God prior to being "made flesh" even though John 1:1 says that he "was God" prior to being "made flesh"? Lastly, you provided no scriptural evidence that the Father has a physical "body or parts" of flesh and bone. And, even though you could refer to scripture where it refers to the "arm of God," Ex. 6:6; or the "hand of God," Psalm 8:3, 6; or having "the appearance of a man," Ez. 1:26; and interpret them in a literal sense rather than as anthropomorphisms, there is nothing that says God the Father is "flesh and bone." (Now, when you say, "That which is without body or parts is nothing." I don't know if the "or" indicates either a body, or parts; or, if you mean a body and parts. A body usually has parts, but parts aren't always connected to a body. So, can God be "parts" not connected to a body and still be God? If not, them you must mean a body and parts.) In John 4:24, it says, "God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth." Now, you said, "There is no other God in heaven but that God who has flesh and bones." So, when you say, "That which is without body or parts is nothing." right before the part about flesh and bones it appears that you are referring to a physical body and physical parts that are "flesh and bone." Yet, Jesus denies that God the Father is flesh and bone in John 4:23-24. In Luke 24:37, when Jesus appeared to his disciples they think that he is a spirit, but in verse 39, Jesus says, "See my hands and feet, that it is myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." (NASB) And, in John 20:27, he requested Thomas to touch him so that Thomas would believe. Consequently, deductive logic indicates that spirits exist with the appearance of human bodies, and that they are not physical bodies that can be touched like flesh and bone, otherwise Jesus would not have needed to prove his physical existence of resurrected flesh and bone by having them touch him. Another example is Matt. 14:26, where the disciples saw Jesus walking on the sea and thought he was a ghost/spirit/phantasma. Peter gets out of the boat and begins to walk on the water as well, but begins to sink and Jesus catches him. The point again being that God the Father can have a spiritual body that is not flesh and bone, and still have a human-like appearance. The presupposition that God must have a body of flesh and bone in order to be God in heaven is a premise that must first be proven from scripture. To simply accept it, and then interpret scripture in coformity with the presupposition is circular reasoning and contradicts scripture.

So he changed his story of seeing God and Jesus and becoming a prophet to suit who he was talking to? Why would he do that? Does he respect the people more than the God he had communicated with? Was his story not powerful enough in its own that he had to manipulate it to suit his listener? Would he be more afraid that he would offend God than the person her was talking to? If this really happened, he would know every detail of what happened to him and would be able to recite it the same way every time. Changing the story to suit his needs at the time, show that it is not a true story.

@@bluesfrequency Joseph Smith never changed his story. You made that up. Divine beings, God, and Jesus and Heavenly Father are not different. They are three ways to say the same thing. You lied.

@@henochparks Lol, ok.

Curious… How does a person remember in detail something that happened 18 years later after they ignored it all those years and casually mentioned it in a journal 12 years after the fact. I did this for years. A TMB, like I was for 42 years, will testify the truth they believe it meant and use JS’s glorious words to describe its beauty and the powerful way it affected the young man, whether he was 14 or 16 years does not matter. What matters is an emotional testimony! It’s worth more than all scientific facts, combined. I’m glad that testimony is finally no longer mine to share!

@@henochparks Oh my goodness! Please do yourself a favor if you haven’t already and read the CES Letter. Do yourself this one favor. If it’s really true, you have nothing to be concerned about, right? Let me give you the link: cesletter.org

What statements are you talking about??

No, he knows exactly what he is speaking of. Do your research.

@@susangroom960 Research is so vital now days; ongoung research is part of my daily routine. When someone says, "do your research," I've found they are projecting their own weakness. Research is not a one time event, it is an ongoing process. Research does not typically prove historical events; first hand experience is needed for a more accurate view, but it's still not fact; two people witnessing an event first hand will most likely reveal two different experiences. Thus the need for spiritual confirmation. I continue to seek both evidence and spiritual confirmation.