"Joseph Smith's Changing View of God" with Grant Palmer

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Joseph Smith changed his view from a monotheistic god, to a polytheistic god over the years. Grant also answers Q&A at the end of the talk.
This was in preparation for the recently added information to the LDS Church's website: www.lds.org/topics/first-visio...
For the outline of this talk, visit: mormonthink.com/grant12.htm
Grant starts at about 2 minutes.
For a list of Postmos events, visit htttp://www.postmos.org

Опубликовано:

24 ноя 2013

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Комментарии : 403

@billsheehy1 3 года назад

After 50 years of being a Mormon and suffering the guilt and fear that the church instilled in me and others, I am free. Jesus is the way and that is the message you need for a new life.

@herbofallon965 10 месяцев назад

If it was so bad, why did you stay fifty years?

@TheCollapsedPsi 9 месяцев назад

@herbofallon965 probably because the church uses cult tactics to manipulate members.

@ValerieGriner Месяц назад

@@herbofallon965 Because they are suffering from generational brainwashing and they lose their community and friends when they leave. Only GOD can draw people out of a cult.

@johnrowley310 13 дней назад

@@herbofallon965 Just be glad she got out of the cult before it was too late. Praise God.

@thesmoness 3 года назад

Watched this again in 2020 for about the 6th time. RIP Grant Palmer. Helped me so much.

@presidentnixonsanus 8 лет назад

The most important lecture on Mormonism of all time.

@BGCflyer 4 года назад

Amazing....in 2002 I had questioned the Book of Mormon’s 1830 differences compared to the current Book of Mormon. I was most concerned with the difference In Jesus as Father and Son which is technically Modalism, as compared to the Father and Son being separate persons...No one understood what I was trying to say.....Thank you Grant Palmer....finally someone understands..... thank you! God Bless you by brother in Christ! RIP

@TheShodan92 6 лет назад

Rest In Peace Grant Palmer, you are a good man.

@markservice8735 3 года назад

Thank you Grant Palmer for sharing your greatest insights before you passed away.

@ixlnxs 10 лет назад

A great part begins at 5:17 It talks about different versions of Joseph Smith's "first vision"

@rudygoodman9085 10 лет назад

Thanks Grant. Good on you for setting the record straight. For those of you more interested in protecting a religious institution than seeking truth: Any truth that cannot stand to inquiry is not truth at all.

@robertrosskopf4641 4 года назад

There is no religious truth that can stand up to the wicked imaginations of men.

@markservice8735 3 года назад

@@robertrosskopf4641 one day you'll put it together that you dug in deep to your own cognitive dissonance to continue believing the lies of Joseph Smith.

@robertrosskopf4641 3 года назад

@@markservice8735 Joseph Smith seems completely sincere. There isn't the slightest hint of him lying. Nor is there any hint that his wife, brother, father, mother, sisters and brothers are lying. I don't see any indication that Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris were lying. Sydney Rigdon also seems quite sincere. Was he lying too? Mary Whitmer also saw the gold plates. Was she lying as well? According to the bible, one cannot be condemned without the testimony of two or three witnesses.(2 Corinthians 13:1) You don't have three witnesses. You don't even have two witnesses. This is the standard of truth that the bible requires, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, before convicting a man. Yet your only standard of truth appears to be wishful thinking. Shall I abandon everything that I know to be true because of your wishful thinking?

@BryceMtn 3 года назад

@@robertrosskopf4641 if you think it wishful thinking to deny that JS was a prophet, I don't think you've ever considered the great struggle it requires to overcome years of indoctrination, accept that you may have been wrong, and realize you have given your whole life to a fraud. Your family and many friends will likely think of you negatively and possibly ostracize you. What a dream come true. We all wish for that! Learning the truth of Joseph's character is one of the most painful experiences of many people's life. To me wishful thinking would be to learn things that conflict with previously held convictions, and then to ignore them or distort them to fit nicely within the story without disrupting my life.

@robertrosskopf4641 3 года назад

@@BryceMtn I love it when I spend thousands of hours studying a variety of books, and people say I've been indoctrinated. It's amazing that there is a negative word for education. I am educated, not indoctrinated. I accept that many of the things I believe may be wrong. That is why I continue to study and learn. Education is a good thing. I am not dead yet, but the church has given me much more than I have given it. The principles of the gospel make sense on so many levels! The Gift of the Holy Ghost is real and very life affirming. The priesthood is a treasure! I have learned the truth about Joseph's character! One of his many wives said he was a perfect gentleman. Brigham Young said he was the most righteous man he had ever met. His wife Emma knew he was a prophet of God and told as much to anyone who would listen. His character was such as a young man, that his father immediately believed him, when he told him about the angel. His character was such, that after a mob attacked him, tried to poison him, and tarred and feathered him, he stayed up all night while his wife pulled the tar from his skin, and the next morning taught a sermon, baptizing several people. His character was such that even in Liberty Jail, he poured out his heart in prayer, and received some of the greatest revelations ever received by mankind. He character was such that we went to the Indian nations and taught them the gospel of Jesus Christ. For many of these tribes, it was their first encounter with Christianity. Native Americans are in the church today who trace their LDS ancestry back to the 1800's. He taught them in their own language. His character was such, that he was always giving away family possessions to those who had a greater need. His character was such that he bought the freedom of a black man who had converted to the church. His character was such that he showed kindness to even his most bitter enemies. The guy was a saint. None of this is wishful thinking. These are the stories of the pioneers, and the reason for their faith.

@eunicebryan5410 5 лет назад

This Church should be called The Church Of Joseph Smith of the latter day followers!

@kerrier4330 5 лет назад

Eunice Bryan Brilliant !😂

@robertrosskopf4641 4 года назад

God can and will answer the sincere prayer of faith. He just expects people to try to work things out for themselves before going to him. This is what Joseph Smith did; he attended various churches trying to figure out which one was true.

@BGCflyer 4 года назад

Eunice Bryan That’s pretty funny but sadly true

@ValerieGriner Месяц назад

They sing praise songs to Joseph Smith. Very little is said about Jesus Christ. It's very sad.

@johnrowley310 13 дней назад

@@ValerieGriner Smith is their god.

@thetiler 10 лет назад

Grant in my opinion is one of the very best scholars i've ever heard. He has a great book out in the "Insider's View". Though I think the Solomon Spalding theory is very valid and a lot of evidence backs it up. I still have never heard of a more thorough educator than Grant. He just has a wealth of knowledge, so impressive ! I actually think he is one of the very best scholars to have ever been in the LDS church and think it is a shame that he was disfellowshipped for zeroing in on the truth and being extremely accurate in doing so. A follower of Jesus and an incredible member I think that the BEST mormonism has to offer ! Just can't say enough about him. And a great, book that should be read and enjoyed ! And amazed ! Thanks Grant for such a great video here !!!!!

@thetiler 10 лет назад

Thanks . Here is a famous quote from the LDS's own: President J Reuben Clark said “If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” Here is a quote from a former Bishop that left a few years ago. Steve Bloor: Another saying I like is, “I’d rather be slapped in the face with the truth, than kissed with a lie!”

@CohassetMA 2 года назад

My 4th generation grand father Ezekial who was not a member of the mormon faith was eye witness to the attempts of Hurlburt and Howe to discredit the book of mormon with the spaulding manuscript. The spaulding manuscript was found many years later and bears no resemblance to the Book of Mormon.

@freelightexpress 8 лет назад

Great presentation,...anyone notice that the right speaker is out, once Grant starts speaking? Not sure if that could be fixed? not sure what happened.

@helorumtheknightsofmambrin2155 2 года назад

I studied Physics with Josh. I can attest to his character. R. I. P. Grant.

@72wolfpack 10 лет назад

This is a really good talk, thank you for the great work Grant, and all those who have done the hard research over the years. These people have given those Mormons who want to leave the fog of lies, an opportunity to do it based on clear logical and factual basis. God Bless Them.

@henochparks 10 лет назад

HAHAHA PALMER HAS CREATED THE FOG OF LIES.

@FreedomZealot 10 лет назад

henochparks You're lost in the tenebrous mists of your own rhetorical flatulence. Palmer's presentation, on the other hand, was cogent and incisive.

@henochparks 10 лет назад

FreedomZealot HE WILL SOON BE FORGOTTEN

@FreedomZealot 10 лет назад

If this were true, so what? Chesterton once wrote that there is no sweeter fate than to be the long-forgotten foe of a long-dead heresy. Mormonism is dying, and Palmer's name will be long remembered by people who cherish truth and intellectual courage.

@henochparks 10 лет назад

henochparks MORMONISM GREW SINCE HE LEFT!!!

@leojamias1275 2 месяца назад

Nice to hear an insider's viewpoint.

@pillettadoinswartsh4974 2 года назад

If the one-ear audio bothers you: On a Mac: 1. Click on the apple 2. Click on System Preferences 3. Click on Accessibility 4. Click on Audio 5. Click on the check box next to "Play stereo audio as mono"

@bobocomments 7 месяцев назад

Everybody sounds like a genius when there's nobody pushing back on your argument

@davidjanbaz7728 7 месяцев назад

Give it a shot : or R you even able to!

@Cadwerx1 6 лет назад

I think it all comes down to.... Do you believe in GOD or Joseph's Myth? The LDS Believe ONE MAN's word. Look into Indoctrination and ask yourself LDS Members.. Did it happen to you? I suggest this in the fact that I was LDS for 48 years. We owe it to ourselves to Do the research. YOU are in a situation where you are TOLD to pay money to get to god, you are Told by a leader.. When a prophet speaks, the THINKING has been done. God Bless. Have a great day!

@robertrosskopf4641 4 года назад

I think it all comes down to... whether I should believe God, or the philosophies of men. Every member of the LDS church is expected to ask God himself. I did, and God responded. Do you care to know what he said?

@markservice8735 3 года назад

@@robertrosskopf4641 Tell us what your imagination said to you

@robertrosskopf4641 3 года назад

@@markservice8735 If it was indeed my imagination, then I must be a God, for I knew things that were impossible for any man to know. It is truly astounding how much, according to you, I have learned from myself. Either way, I am going to continue to pray and rely upon the Lord.

@stevenv6463 Год назад

I never thought to think of proofs of why the later vision accounts are obviously a later addition to Mormonism. But he makes very good points for why these don't make sense in an earlier context.

@alexanderv7702 2 месяца назад

There should have been a microphone at the front of the auditorium, for the Q&A. They who wanted to ask a question could have formed a queue, thereby facilitating audible questions.

@cider654 6 лет назад

I bough a new house. An angle appeared to me and told me there was a book of golden plates hidden in my attic . He said the plates were a revised update to the plates Jophet Smith got. I tried to read them but unfortunately i do not have the magic specitals Jophet Smith had. If anybody know where i can get them let me know and I will fulfill mormonic future.

@alannahmay3823 5 лет назад

The Three Nephites have the magic spectacles. Hopefully, they will bring them to you soon.

@robertrosskopf4641 4 года назад

I'm sure spelling will become so much easier when you can spell by the gift and power of God.

@BGCflyer 4 года назад

I think you can find them at Zenni.com

@funkyfreshtx 4 года назад

any idea where to find that outline these days? MormonThink link is dead

@fredricksmith-something.2125 6 лет назад

If I were a single old man, id stay. But if I had kids and was younger. I would have taken the small buyout and moved as well. It would be cool to visit one day tho.

@johngabbradley1 10 лет назад

Does anyone have a reference to the quote where Martin Harris in the Kirtland temple says none of the witnesses saw the plates with their physical eyes but only with "the eyes of our understanding" that Grant mentioned in his talk. I have looked for it but can't find an actual reference to read on my own.

@CraigDungan 10 лет назад

I have a faint recollection that the reference you are referring to came from a third party's journal. Someone who witnessed the event. I wish I had a better answer. I too have searched for that source.I think it was a letter written by Stephen Burnett in sometime in 1838. When I have a chance I'm going to pull out his book.

@CraigDungan 10 лет назад

Found it: Stephen Burnett to Lyman Johnson, April 15, 1838 The Joseph Smith Papers, Letterbook 2, Page 69, 70 of 277 you can read the words as written by Stephen Burnett. Here is the link: josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/letterbook-2?dm=image-and-text&zm=zoom-inner&tm=expanded&p=70&s=undefined&sm=none Here is the transcribed text from the JS Papers: p69: ...but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in a public congregation that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations was sapped & the entire superstructure fell a heap of ruins, I therefore three weeks since in the Stone Chapel gave a full history of the church since I became acquainted with it, the false preaching & prophecying etc of Joseph together with the reasons why I took the course which I was resolved to do, and renounced the Book of Mormon with the whole scene of lying and deception... p70 ...[Joseph] Coe, Harris and others who still believe the Book of Mormon &c but discard Joseph & Mr Coe proposed an investigation of the subject, and Parish took up on the negative, but I have not heard how they got along with it, I am well satisfied for myself that if the witnesses whose names are attached to the Book of Mormon never saw the plates as Martin admits that there can be nothing brought to prove that any such thing ever existed for it is said on the 171 page of the book of covenants that the three should testify that they had seen the plates even as J S Jr & if they only saw them spiritually or in vision with their eyes shut- J S Jr never saw them in any other light way & if so the plates were only visionary and I am well satisfied that the 29 & 37 Chaps of Isai[a]h & Ezek[i]el together with others in which we depended to prove the truth of the book of Mormon have no bearing when correctly understood but are (Page 71) entirely irrevelent- but if any man differs from me I can adopt the lan guage of Josephus, he is at liberty to enjoy his opinions without any blame from me- We are all well in usual health, my respects to your family & all our old friends, I am with respect yours &c S[tephen] Burnett

@johngabbradley1 10 лет назад

Awesome. That is extremely helpful. Have been looking for this for my personal notes for a long time. Thanks very much!

@alexanderv7702 2 месяца назад

Did Joshua Seixas influence Joseph's theological thinking?

@gardeeoh 10 лет назад

Hencho you remind me of that old saying that goes, "better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open your mouth and prove them right."

@robertallison107 8 лет назад

+gardeeoh AMEN to THAT fact. Hencho needs to get a grasp on reality....

@cleonzerkle3081 6 лет назад

Why can't I edit this video out of my phone?

@lovinglife7211 8 лет назад

I am studying and researching the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints religion with great interest and with respect. There are several areas which concern me... e.g. in the original 1830 printing of the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi, at the end of Chapter 13, on page 120, it is stated: "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." (2 Nephi 31:21) That very clearly teaches and affirms THE TRINITY as understood and believed in by mainstream Christianity, i.e. that there is ONE GOD comprising three personages. As the Book of Mormon says, this is the "only and true doctrine" of the Trinity. This teaching appears on the Mormon website: " And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." However, some Mormon writing contradicts this, treating the three members of the Trinity as separate Gods! For example: "The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35). My question: do Mormons today believe in the Trinity as stated and taught in the 1830 Book of Mormon? If not, why not?

@thecrippler46 8 лет назад

+Loving Life The current belief or correlated Sunday school teaching, and one that most LDS members ascribe to is we call this the Godhead, not the Trinity, although it is semantics, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Ghost. Separate personages that are one in purpose. The Book of Mormon when it was written was highly interpreted as promoting the trinity, several times referring to Christ as God the Father. If I may suggest a book to you on the topic, one that I as a Mormon found extremely fascinating it is called The Serpent and the Dove: Messianic Mysteries of the Mormon Temple by Paul Toscano. It is available on Amazon.com not every Mormon would agree with it, but it addresses the thought on the trinity and how early Mormons might have addressed it. It's definitely worth a read I can't recommend highly enough if this is one aspect about Mormonism that you're looking to study.

@gardeeoh 8 лет назад

+Colt Herrera Please Colt don't get involved in Mormonism. They will paint a glowing picture Joseph Smith, but the true Joseph was a far different man. Because of Smith Mormonism is full of errors in doctrine and it is full of contradicted scripture and teachings. For example. The Book of Mormon says God is a spirit. A few years after the BOM was published Smith was teaching God has a body of flesh and bones. Which is correct Mormon doctrine? Two opposing doctrines can't be right. One is right and one is wrong and if it comes from the same person (Smith) then he must be a deceiver, which he was.

@thecrippler46 8 лет назад

+gardeeoh that's a bit too late I am a Mormon, or rather a card carrying member at one point. So I'm all to aware of the problems lies and cons that they continue to pull, and how much they inject themselves politically in Utah and national politics. That being said I approach the study of Mormonism is the vein that people who study Ancient Greek mythology. I don't approach it as a believer but as a student of theology and history. I grew up in a Mormon culture and have Mormon ancestors and roots. So even though I don't believe in the Church or god necessarily I still enjoy learning the different angles about it. The book that I suggested to read being one of them.

@IWillFaceAllah 7 лет назад

+Loving life they believe anyone who is a good Mormon can become a God like Elohim and create spirit children who will worship them and their wife or wives. thus they are polytheists.

@cdowis 7 лет назад

" do Mormons today believe in the Trinity as stated and taught in the 1830 Book of Mormon? If not, why not?" We believe in the Trinity **as Christ taught in the Bible** (John 17:19-23). We reject the "one substance entity" doctrine of the Nicene Creed. "Why?" Christ Himself refutes the "one substance entity" doctrine: --Not my will, but thine be done -- Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father (after the resurrection) -- The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. -- John 7 [16] Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. [17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. The historic Christian church has replaced the prophets and apostles with theologians and philosophers. We accept all the word of God, including the Bible and modern revelation. Now, a question for you, are you going to worship the God of the Bible, or the "one substance entity" of the Nicene Creed?

@dankuchar6821 5 лет назад

Too much propaganda in this. He picks and chooses to try and make his point. Study things for yourself to find the truth, don't listen to some other person. The information is out there for anybody who wants to read.

@eunicebryan5410 5 лет назад

The Bible is very clear that God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all separate persons, eternally existent in one triune Godhead. They are never in disunity, they have their own function! God the Father did not die on the cross for the sins of the world, but Jesus did, (as the lamb of God), God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit operate in perfect unity! The Bible teaches that God the Father is invisible! Jesus took on a body of flesh, and was born of the Virgin Mary. The Holy Spirit is a person, but He is also invisible! The Bible teaches that that which is invisible is the real world; it is spiritual! That which is temporal is the visible, and is passing away. The Bible explains this so perfectly!

@BGCflyer 4 года назад

Eunice Bryan Wow! Nicely stated!

@JennySmith-MormonShare 4 года назад

Yes! The Bible explains this so perfectly that you just had to explain it to me! Wait....

@CohassetMA 2 года назад

The bible has been translated how many times? How many unscrupulous individuals intentionally deleted precious truths from the bible? Are you going to trust that scripture that has been warped and manipulated so many times? Are you aware of William Tinsdale and Sir Thomas Moore? The Book of Mormon was translated only once and there are too many witnesses that saw the plates from which it was translated. Their witness came at great both financial and career sacrifice. Considering that Joseph and Hyrum Smith voluntarily went to their deaths as a fraud is ridiculous. There were too many witnesses even beyond the 3+8. Go do the math. Then go find out about the other witnesses. Then go read the Book of Mormon and ask God yourself.

@MrBaldurthegood 10 лет назад

At 1:13:35 i get grant to call Joseph Smith a con man :D i was pretty pleased with the response from the audience. Thanks post mos/mormon think!

@robertrosskopf4641 4 года назад

The wonderful thing about revelation from God, is that it is God himself who changes our view on what or who God is.

@MustangWriter 3 года назад

If I may... As a convert for many years I said in a portion of my testimony that the ".... Holy Spirit came to me in the bottom of the sea and put His arm around me and brought me up...up...up out of the water, high into the clouds where....". For 30 years I said that sentence that way. It is even recorded in my journal that way. But as I grew in my knowledge of the gospel I realized that a 'spirit' can not physically rescue me up as it has no tangible body; so what was the entity that came to me in the bottom of the sea (in my testimonial revelation/rock)? Why... It had to be an 'ANGEL' ! Now whenever (rarely) I bear my testimony I say "...and an ANGEL came to me in the bottom of the sea and put his arm around me and brought me up...up...up out of the water, high into the clouds where ... ". So I ask... just because I interpreted my testimony at first according to my limited and carnal/physical knowledge of that time's personal understanding... does it make the overall truthfulness of my testimony any less significant? No! As we become more knowledgeable of gospel principles our faith paradigm changes or even grows greater and we perceive GREATER instances of TRUTH than we once did. Joseph Smith's first vision as a boy expanding into his more mature version as an adult proves the ever culmination of truth is much like a beautiful colorful flower unfolding revealing deeper, brighter hues. God bless my friend and first Elder of this dispensation Joseph Smith. What an incredible teacher! We all interpret religion with a carnal (physical) mind instead of with the Spirit that will teach us all things. Merry Christmas 2020

@MustangWriter 3 года назад

@Jeff Carlin Not nice try. They EXIST. I've experienced it for myself. I can not provide you the 'proof' you need to know for an a surety for yourself... (its not my job) but I have ALL the proof I need and your opinion while I understand is important to you... means NOTHING to what I've been fortunate to have seen and experienced. "If you find fault in the Words of our Father perhaps it is in the way it has been presented to you, or according to the measure of your understanding... and not necessarily in the message itself"

@saradejesus9869 2 года назад

The Tanners have been teaching for decades that there were no revivals during the time period JS was 'testifying' about, now we are being told about Methodist revivals going strong. I trust this account, but what happened with the Tanners?

@joedawg22 10 лет назад

Love how at 7:19 Grant pretty much talks about a subject he got to proofread for a magazine article that will come out in a month or two but he might not tell the story correctly and to get the magazine when it comes out. Great way to preface everything just incase the story is not correct. Has nobody ever heard about all the different accounts before about the 1st vision, Grant Palmer is not the first person to share and wont be the last. The Joseph Smith papers project is a work of all the accounts joseph ever wrote for everyone to see.

@JoeyHauschildt 10 лет назад

He told us that he might get it wrong because he isn't a liar. And he won't be the last for sure. It is one of the ways we are killing Mormonism.

@Cadwerx1 7 лет назад

two years later.... how much was true?? have a great day!

@BGCflyer 4 года назад

...well, looks like Grant was right!

@johnpfmcguire 5 лет назад

There is a difference between "deity" and "divinity". The Orthodox Christian Trinity would be three deities sharing divinity

@XiridionTheOriginal 10 лет назад

1:14:00

@darwinsape9901 6 лет назад

Even with all of this... they continued with the lie?.. As Dr Walter Martin had been saying this for years well into the 1980's... The Mormon Church should issue a global apology to every member, missionary and convert to and of mormonism. However... in the Q&A section.. Mr Palmer still isn't a Christian ...

@ronbrewer3493 4 года назад

We can grow up from one intelligence to another. That baby can grow up and become an adult. We can grow up and become like our Heavenly eternal Father in heaven. I am only one and the Father of my children that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers. The same is true with our Heavenly Father He is only one and the Father of our spirits. That does not mean that there cannot be more fathers in heaven to. The essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. Why call Him Heavenly Father unless He is. The great prophet Joseph Smith was right .Every sence this spinning blue planet was created and all the worlds of our Heavenly Father anytime we as real children of real Heavenly parents have desired to grow up and become more like our Heavenly parents God has always called or worked through true living prophets teachers. Love

@Loenthall88 Год назад

Remarkable to hear his admission (around 1:14:00) that, after 50 years of studying Joseph Smith he came to the conclusion that "Joseph Smith is a con man all the way through."

@plume2035 9 лет назад

They can't just believe Gods' Word in the Bible, they need all the add ons and extras. As soon as a religion or cult adds its extras, you know its not real. They need that to support their doctrines. My eternity is to valuable to stuff around with using add ons. I just want Gods' Word thank you.

@scottmv1847 8 лет назад

+plume2035 "God's word," as you call it, makes reference to several other important books of scripture which, for some reason, are not included in the Bible as we have it. Or do you not care enough about what the scriptures actually SAY to believe that God's word can be found in other places? Incidentally, where did you ever get the idea that the books in the Bible are the only acceptable written words of God? That idea doesn't come from the Bible (unless you misinterpret that verse in Revelation which warns against adding to the word of THIS BOOK. If you realize that the book of Revelation was written BEFORE many of the other books of the New Testament, and if you realize that THERE WAS NO BIBLE until 200 years AFTER the book of Revelation was written, then you'll see how the verse should properly be interpreted. You can have your own opinions, but you're not allowed to think that they're valid unless they're based on truth and factual reasoning.

@HelenEk7 8 лет назад

So where does the Bible make references to things from the book of mormons? Christ visiting the Americas, the sun being gone for 3 days, Jews travelling overseas..

@scottmv1847 8 лет назад

Remember, the Bible didn't exist until 300 years AFTER Christ died. When they talk about the "scriptures" in the New Testament, they're referring ONLY to the Old Testament. Thje New Testament didn't even exist in Jesus's time, or for three centuries after that. And, even then, there was a HUGE political debate that raged for a long time over which letters and epistles were really written by the apostles and which were not. Many groups had their own collection of these things, and it took them a long time to come to an agreement as to which letters and writings should make up the "New Testament." And that set of books, as it is, deals with the history of Israel. But there are instances where Christ makes reference to "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold; them, also, I must bring" and so on. The big test is to just read the book, and see what you feel from it. The first time I read the Book of Mormon, I felt closer to Jesus than ever. Now, using all the scriptures together makes my experience with Christ much more rich and meaningful.

@plume2035 8 лет назад

I love the description Joseph Smith gave of the people living on the moon. Look it up. it is in mormon books although they are not keen on sharing it too widely.

@hippiedachshunds1632 7 лет назад

+plume2035 I believe you are referring to Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith. Agreed, it's hilarious what with the moon people dressing like Quakers!!

@jonnygotz2343 9 лет назад

Book of mormon

@robertallison107 8 лет назад

+jonnygotz2343 ANOTHER synonym for "Walking BS".....

@kevinmichaelbergman8276 Год назад

The most real but Demonic church on earth.

@thetiler 9 лет назад

I know when I read James Padgett in his communications with Jesus. Each time Jesus contacts James it is "I am here Jesus". I think these are true visitations from Jesus starting in 1914. Though many will probable discount it because it is automatic writing. But Jame's wife contacted James from the spirit world and went into great detail in how she opened up communication with James through grabbing hold of his arm to help write with his arm. And who better to communicate with in that way than a wife etc. But Jesus comes in later and mentions that he "Jesus" does not want to be called in reference as "GOD" what so ever. And I agree with Grant that in the early roots of mormonism that Joseph doesn't have a very good understanding when he confuses GOD with Jesus. I believe Jesus !00% doesn't want to be called "GOD". No way, no how! Jesus is referred to by his apostles as being a sinless man yes. The highest from what I can gather in the celestial spheres. But can't stand being called GOD. His gospel is showing how to get the spirit of GOD more into human's lives. NOT THAT HE IS GOD! I have a GREAT respect for Grant and think he is probably one of the most inspired men to have ever come out of the LDS church which I think wasn't NOT his doing! And think he is one of the most inspired of men to have ever been in the LDS church. He in my eyes is a follower of Jesus and a very good man indeed! And I think deserves respect amongst all LDS people. His scholarly work deserves going through in detail. It is so important to understand the inconsistencies in the Book of Mormon because artifacts just plain and simple are not showing up in book of mormon lands.

@crisantocabrerajr.222 2 года назад

Two words Outer Darkness

@CohassetMA 2 года назад

How do you deal with so many witnesses? Book of Mormon is true. Too many witnesses.

@nickdipaolofan5948 Год назад

all the "witnesses" were from the same two or three families. Not that impressive.

@EIij4h Год назад

“Second sight” witnesses

@richarner3856 10 часов назад

70,000 witnesses saw the Virgin Mary at Fatima

@resebes 10 лет назад

It's nice to know that these people hated mormonism yet they keep on monitoring and studying the Mormon teachings or doctrines in order to get attention. This is just fault finding, and this is not how Jesus Christ taught before and certainly not the ways of God to spread truth. I mean after you been kick off to any organization you've been, there's always bitter feelings towards it and nobody could deny it.

@CraigDungan 10 лет назад

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” - President J. Reuben Clark - It looks like this challenge is being met. And Mr Palmer is still a Mormon.

@resebes 10 лет назад

Craig Dungan"In a CONTROVERSY the instant we feel ANGER we have already CEASED STRIVING for the TRUTH, and have BEGUN STRIVING for OURSELVES." - Buddha - The worst thing about being lied to is knowing that you're not worth the truth. . .

@Depth81 10 лет назад

Reynaldo Sebes We are not talking about a "controversy", and feeling "angry" (unless you are referring to one specific individual), we are talking about the fact that so much evidence points to the church being false. We do not "hate" the church as you say, we are simply seeking to understand why there are so many inconsistencies related to the church, it's history and teachings, when we were taught that it is the one true church on the face of the earth. It is not hateful and anger provoking to ask why polyandry was instigated, nor to ask why 17th century KJV additions are found in the BOM. Is it not worth asking why there are so many accounts of the first vision, or to wonder why there are so many textual changes to the BOM? It is human nature, where one is driven to understand the truth, even if that truth is not found in the LDS church. I am a member of the church and that is why I am studying it, I too seek to better understand. :) Peace

@resebes 10 лет назад

If you have read the BOM I could say you don't understood why it (KJV) was included as you say. Being semilar to the language or text found in the KJV does not only prove it was taken from that book but may also prove that it came from the same source. As you may have known that king David himself has many wives and concubines and God allows it in his time. Some prophets of old testament also have more than one wife, if God allows that to happened before why God would not not allow the same for our time? I know this is not a good justification but we will only understand the ways of God if we open our minds and accept the possibilities that God has His own purpose to serve Him and He alone knows it. It can be shared to us once we accept the reality and face the truth that He governs us all. The issue on why is there so many accounts about the first vision, is simply because it was written by different authors and everyone of them has their own vision or way of telling stories. Joseph himself was still a young man when he experienced it, recalling it may not be 100% accurate and he may have remembered some details afterwards. When you only believe one thing and set your mind directly into it sometimes you can't comprehend things which is of most importance. I hope what I wrote here finds you peace of mind as I may have been so wrong as may think but I have faith strong enough to stand for what is right and certainly will fight for it.

@Depth81 10 лет назад

Reynaldo Sebes My man, you are not addressing the facts. You skim over the real issues with broad strokes. I will be more clear in my critique of the inclusion of these many KJV passages. Please read this entire wall of text, I'm sorry it's so long. Sometimes 17th century King James translators would add words to the text to make it more pleasant to read, if you will. These additions were italicized so we know exactly which words were added. "shall, be, was and by" were all added to Isaiah 9:1. Now pop over and read 2 Nephi 19:1 and note that the exact same words are used. You either believe that the translators were inspired to make these changes or that JS copied this passage directly from his KJV bible. If the translators were inspired to make these changes then why did JS have to translate many parts of the bible himself. (too many hoops to jump through to make sense of this). I understand that you can twist and contort this any way you want, but I don't have to. I can plainly read both texts and see that it is most likely that JS himself copied it from his bible. How about Malachi 3:10? Compare it to 3 Nephi 24:10. Here there are 7 italicized words that are not found in the source hebrew manuscript when translated to english. Why does the BOM, here written centuries before the 17th century KJV translation, contain these words, word for word? Come on Reynaldo, you know as well as I do that the evidence points towards JS copying it, rather than translating it. If you read the accounts given by JS himself and witnesses, the translation process was very methodical. Words appeared in the stone and JS said them allowed. These "additions" should not be there with such exactness. But I may as well not stop there. There are also several KJV translational errors that somehow found their way into the BOM. see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mormon_and_the_King_James_Bible#Perpetuation_of_KJB_translation_errors Can you explain these? Also, and this is a good one, the BOM contains passages from the bible (KJV), word for word, that JS later re-translated and included in the JST passages, but that contradict the passages found in the BOM. One example: 3 Nephi 13: 25-27, KJV Mathew 6: 25-27 and JST Mathew 6:25-27. (this is not the only time this happens) Hmmm...the book of mormon is the most correct of any book right? Even if you don't entirely agree with that, shouldn't the inspired JST match identically to what he translated looking through the stone in the hat? On a similar note, why does the second version (and subsequent) of the book of mormon have substantial changes to its own text? Compare the original 1830 BOM text with what you have in your home, specifically 1 Nephi 11:18, 1 Nephi 11:21, 1 Nephi 11:32, 1 Nephi 13:40. Then, consider the first written account JS penned of the first vision. Notice any type of similarity? Well I will tell you. JS believed the godhead to be one personage, not three. These scriptures, among others prove this. They were later changed by JS himself, just as the first vision was changed to reflect two personages rather than the one that he originally told of. The book of mormon was compiled from many sources, none of which were golden plates and inspired revelation. Still aren't lead to research this further? Well if not, I wish you the best. I understand it is VERY hard to mentally let yourself question what you consider to be the truth. I am there myself and unfortunately the church doesn't have answers to these questions. You really are left to visiting sites like fair and farms for answers that really aren't satisfying. Having more faith doesn't dispel this kind of doubt. If you believe in God, then you must believe He blessed you with a mind capable of rational thought. So, what are you expected to do with rational thought? Expel it to preserve blind faith? It doesn't make any sense (based on what the church teaches about the nature of God) that He would want us to disregard reason for faith. The two SHOULD go hand in hand. The church should make sense, and feel right, not just feel right.

@cptdebbie Год назад

Secular Buddhism

@DRT279 Год назад

He’s dead.

@ronbrewer3493 4 года назад

Why are you picking on the great prophet Joseph Smith. He to has his personal weaknesses to overcome to grow up and become more. No he was not a con. Man just a strong man that was trying to overcome his weaknesses to do the will of God. I know that Jesus is the Christ the savior of the whole world. People found fault with Christ and crusified Him but he had the truth. Yes all truth and weaknesses will be reviled we have them as part of Gods grace to grow up and become more. That baby can grow up and become an adult we can grow up and become like our Heavenly Father..you could not develop faith if you new everything and if you new everything you would be a God. You are not a God but nearther is a baby an adult. .we are here to grow up and become more like our Heavenly Father. Who cares about all this other garbage. Why regurgitate so much stilupid garbage ..love let's all repent .

@tomasneel1980 Год назад

the world never built a monument to critic. paul harvey when you ridicule, you lose all credibility... i have a dozen ancestors who personally knew the Prophet Joseph, not one ill word was spoken of him... and i have my own experiences and testimony ... i admonish you to be careful to false ppl like this man

@richarner3856 10 часов назад

Elijah didn't lose any credibility when he mocked the false prophets of his day

@jasongartner570 5 лет назад

Mosiah 15:3. The Doctrine was clear from the start. I could find verse after verse like this, but that's enough. You're intentionally leaving full references. You're also not fully quoting each account of the first vision. What's your hidden sin? Because there's something there and you know it. Come back to the fold and repent.

@angiehille4207 4 года назад

I wonder what grant is thinking now.I bet its not good.

@herbofallon965 10 месяцев назад

So we have here a group of obsessed ex-Mormons who spend their time banding together to put down the Church and the Prophet Joseph Smith.

@richarner3856 10 часов назад

And having picnics and exchanging recipes and rooting for our favorite hockey teams and welcoming all who escaped the cult of Peepstone Joe...adieu

@angiehille4207 4 года назад

Sounds like bullcrap to me.Im lds for eternity. Good luck with your belief.

@binren3984 4 года назад

No it's Mormon History The BoM is Rightous Fiction Mormonism is not Christian Mormonism is a. Counterfeit Gospel Paul said to Galatians , If I or an angel preach a different gospel Let them be an anathema Muhammad saw an angel wrote the Quran Smith saw an angel wrote the BoM Those angels were fallen angels The Holy Bible stands alone as God's Word Peace

@angiehille4207 4 года назад

@@binren3984 Joseph Smith didnt write anything he translated a record of ancient inhabitants of America. Sires that are named in the b.o.m have just been unearthed by non mormon archaeologists. Say what you want but you cant touch proof

@binren3984 4 года назад

@@angiehille4207 believe what you. Angie. I know that Smith told a story to his scribes and you bought the ridiculous story If it were true 600ad is not that far back there would be proof . there is zero proof and that's your burden. Why was an ancient record of major importance kept hidden and a secret ? Cause it was a prop. Why would that record that was buried in the ground suppoely for 1200 years have to go back to Heaven ? How convenient for Smith. At least the Holy Bible has textual proof I stand on the evidence of facts that Smith was a pathological liar The middle east is Bible Country. not Book of Mormon. Country. Your fictional characters left at the Tower of Babel and 400 years before Christ . Right that seems legit. So where are these civilizations ? Where is Zarahemla ? Where are these Lamanites that cover all the Americans that are Jewish ? DNA markers don't disappear like golden plates to Heaven. Peace Peace

@marcuscochran806 Год назад

It’s important because it illustrates one of the many many ways JS was a false prophet and con man who adapted his theology to suit his circumstances and himself.

@josephshillabeer 10 лет назад

Lol "changing view of God". Remember you were born and you didn't understand any languages. Then gradually you learned more and more? And as you learn even more, things you did "understand" become clearer. Yeah.. Do you then accuse me of changing my view of God? Because when I was younger I thought He was a wierd invisible things, now i know him to be my Father in heaven and real being, who i can communicate with me. Curse me to hell for my changing views! You know also i read the bible through over and over. When I first read about the actions of Jesus, like feeding the 5000 I thought.. that means, He was showing off his miracle power. I now understand it is symbolic for his atonement. Curse me for my changing views. Name me a prophet who knew it all at the get go? Did not even Moses, grow in his understanding of God? Did not Samuel, or Saul? Did not Saul simply believe he saw an angel at first, then understood it was Christ? I invited so called opposers of the Mormon church to read the old testament, to read the scriptures. There are two types of questions people ask: 1) Questions when people want the answer. 2) Questions when people don't want the answer. 1 will lead you to understanding. 2 will not. Is that not simple logic? Soften your heart, you who read this.. and open your heart to God..

@ValveOil91 10 лет назад

I spent four solid months reading Mormons scriptures and the Bible. I asked question #1 and I found the answer. The nature of God is plainly laid out in the Bible. Don't give me the excuse of the Bible not being correctly translated. That claim has been proven false by thousands of manuscripts. Read about the Dead Sea Scrolls and tell me you still believe Article of Faith #8. Joseph Smith basically taught the Trinity when he first founded Mormonism. Check out the Lectures of Faith that were removed from LDS scriptures because they were contradictory to what the Church teaches now. Show me a verse in the Book of Mormon that clearly states that God and Jesus are two separate gods. Joseph Smith changed his mind about God because he realized he could use the man-god to show that everyone can become gods, which is quite attractive to a selfish human. Mormonism is actually a really selfish religion. What's your goal in life? To become a god in the afterlife. For a true Christian, the goal in life is to worship God and accept his sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

@josephshillabeer 10 лет назад

Veronica I understand your concern. The Book of Mormon is a testimony that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Likewise is the New Testament, as is the Old Testament. All given to us to convince all men everywhere, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. You say you have read the Book of Mormon, then you will be familiar with the Prophet Alma who taught that faith and all belief is comparable to planting a seed. He taught the word of God is the seed. That by planting it in our hearts and nourishing it, it will grow up within us to produce great fruits! But only if we have hope to believe and give the seed a chance to grow. Four solid months is admirable, but having served as a missionary for 2 years, I can tell you, it can take time! Some understand and feel the truth of the Book of Mormon in days, some weeks, some months! It all depends on the willingness to plant the seed of the word in our HEARTS. Because the mind of man is never certain, the heart is. I know if you continue to read the Book of Mormon and pray concerning it's truthfulness, you will gain a witness from God that it is true. And by knowing it is a true book of scripture, you will know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that we have a living prophet today! What a glorious message to bring people! That God is not silent, but He speaks! And for all those who love the Church of the new testament with the passion, the faith, miracles and charity and love therein is restored to the earth! I know it to be true.

@faithmatters1004 9 лет назад

Joseph Shillabeer Joseph, you need to do research into your church. If you earnestly investigate your church using even only LDS resources, you will find out that you've been deceived. You say, "I know it to be true." What about the billion Muslims who know Islam is true, or the billion Catholics that know that Catholicism is true? Somebody's got to be wrong. It might be you.

@josephshillabeer 9 лет назад

Faith Matters K thanks i believe you, you're right. im converted to everything you believe. Is that what you want to hear?

@faithmatters1004 9 лет назад

Joseph Shillabeer In general what I'm looking for is a general willingness on your part to back up what the church asserts with a little research. If not anything else, it's extremely fascinating. The LDS church asserts itself as being the 'One True Church.' As such, you would have nothing to fear by doing a little research, am I right? I'd recommend starting with LDS-sanctioned resources, like "Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling" by Richard Bushman (Deseret Books). Then read the Gospel Topics essays on lds.org. After that, you might want to dip into Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View..."

@ronbrewer3493 4 года назад

Who cares about all this garbage when we all know that we all have the right to grow up and become more like our Heavenly Father...Grant Palmer reminds me of those who found fault with Christ and crusified Him just because Christ did not live up to their expectations. In our growing up processes we all have the right to make mistakes hopefully we learn from them. Truth about things is that we are all real children of real Heavenly parents. Truth is that the essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. That baby can grow up and become an adult. We can grow up and become like our Heavenly parents. You could not develop faith if you new everything and if you new everything you would be a God. You are not a God but nearther is a baby an adult. I am only one and the Father of my children that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers. The same is true with our Heavenly Father He is only one and the Father of our spirits that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers in heaven to. Again the essence of life is growth and to become and to overcome. God is our Heavenly Father. We all lived with our Heavenly parents before we came to earth to develop faith. Get a body and go through experiences and learning lessons to grow up and become more like our Heavenly parents. I say parents because we all keep our bodies after resurrection. Why come to earth get a body if we can not keep it after resurrection. Grant Palmer is a ideit for finding fault with Christ and His true prophet Joseph Smith. God our Heavenly Father is the one who has the right to forgive sins and to chose His true living prophets. This is one more point of reasoning. I have never read or heard of a perfect prophet. And not one of them are perfect according to everyone's expectations .it is our weaknesses that keep us from God and listening to His true living prophets and apostles today and in the past .we are all here to grow up and become like our Heavenly parents. One more thing God has a pateran of working through and with His chosen prophets. He is the one who chooses them not ourselves thinking that we are wiser or we have the right to choose them according to our sins and weak desires and pride .it is not my church or Grant palmers .it is the church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints. Not some other mans and his set of weaknesses. It is Lord Jesus's church ..No matter how much pride or self knowledge one may have..God pateran is ever since this spinning blue planet was created and all the worlds of our Heavenly Father anytime we as real children of real Heavenly parents have desired to want to grow up and become more God our Heavenly Father has always called and worked through true living prophets regardless of their weaknesses rebellion and weaknesses. They to have the right to learn and grow through their weaknesses mistakes and experience. Truly it is our weaknesses that keep us from God. Again the essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. That baby can grow up and become an adult we can grow up and become like our Heavenly Father.. I am only one and the Father of my children that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers. God our eternal Heavenly Father is only one and the Father of our spirits. That does not mean that there cannot be more fathers in heaven to. There is not limit to space the limits we have is our weaknesses and our pride in not listening to Christ and His true living prophets and apostles today..Gods true living prophets and apostles today. God is our Father in heaven why call Him Heavenly Father unless He is. You could not develop faith if you new everything and if you new everything you would be a God you are not a God but nearther is a baby an adult..we are here on this spinning blue planet to overcome ore weaknesses and we all have enough of our own without finding fault with Christ and His true living and dead prophets. Now let's go to the holy bible. I know that the holy bible is true. But I have never read anywhere in the holy bible where Christ Himself did any writing except for in the sand so who wrote the holy bible true prophets and apostles of our Lord and savior Christ. So if Christ Himself did not do any writing except for in the sand. The holy bible was written by holy men true prophets of God. All of them testify of Christ .so if the holy bible was written by true prophets of God and it is very important to read it. It is also very important to read the book of Mormon. For both of them testify of Christ our Lord and savior..I also know that the earth was divided geniuse 10 25 .I know that God our Heavenly Father did have some of His children on this side of the world. I know that God had some of His spirit children have on this side of the world true prophets on both sides of the world testifying that Jesus is Lord the savior of the whole world..I know that Mormon was a real man and a true prophet of God also Alma Mosiah Nephi Abenidi lehi and meney others. Both the holy bible and the book of Mormon testifying that Jesus is Lord the savior of the whole world. I know that it is our weaknesses that keep us from God and that we have enough of our own weaknesses to work on we do not need to be finding fault with Christ and His true prophets living or dead. Some of us sure have a lot of pride thinking we know more . Again it is mans weaknesses that keep us from God. If we new everything we would be Gods we are not Gods but nearther is a baby an adult. We are here on this spinning blue planet to grow up and become more like our Heavenly Father. It is railways better to look for the good reather than finding fault with Christ and His true prophets. I know that Jesus is the Christ the savior of the whole world. I know that Joseph Smith was one of Christ great prophets..I know it just look at all the stupid misinformed people who find fault with Christ and His great prophet Joseph Smith. God has always called and worked through true living prophets..Grant palmer and all of us His need to repent and to accept more of God's grace and love. So let's all grow up and repent for ourselves and the potential of us all as real children of real Heavenly parents. Love

@binren3984 4 года назад

Ron Let me ask you a question or two if we have Heavenly Parents and they are Flesh and Bones How is it we just come out a fluttering spirit ? What happened to the flesh and bones ? Why would anyone worship a Father God who was once a sinful man ? The Holy Bible. John 8:23 Jesus said to a crowd, You are from Beneath clay dirt I am from Above. Heaven You are of this World our orgin I am not of this World. Creator Jesus claim that no one has seen the Father but him. Well if we were spirit babies I believe we would of seen the Father If you can't back up your claim with biblical scripture then it is not the truth . make it exegesis Peace

@jonnygotz2343 9 лет назад

Book of Mormon is true

@kingri1 9 лет назад

Which version of the Book of Mormon is true?

@jonnygotz2343 9 лет назад

There is only 1 version

@kingri1 9 лет назад

no, there are about 4000 changes in today's version of the Book of Mormon as opposed to the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon. And many of them are VERY significant changes. And there were many versions printed between the 1830 version and today's version. The LDS church makes claim that the Christian church has changed and corrupted the bible, but they dont seem to have a problem with changing the Book of Mormon whenever they feel like it. If it was as Joseph Smith said "given by direct revelation of God" and "the most correct book of earth", then there should have never been any need to change it in all these other printed versions

@jonnygotz2343 9 лет назад

Not major changes at all

@kingri1 9 лет назад

Most are not significant changes, but some are VERY major. like changing that the lamanites will become white and delightsome, to they will become pure and delightsome. And the many places that changes that Jesus is in fact the only true God as believed in Christendom to Son of God. Example it refers to Mary as the mother of God. Later they changed it to read Mary is the mother of the Son of God. These are very significant changes. And back to what I had said, if it was translated by the direct power of God, and if the angel was correct in telling Joseph that the book is the most correct book on earth, then it should not need ANY changes. Isnt this in fact what the mormons accuse christianity of doing? That Christianity has changed and corrupted the bible? So why does the mormon church think they can just change the Book of Mormon willy nilly?

@davidhawkins5719 6 лет назад

This guy has no understating of "Divine Investiture", the concept of perfect Oneness between the Gods and the true Trinity. Also, just because Joseph omitted the Father in the 1832 account, doesn't mean He wasn't there. Moreover, language is subjective and objective. We don't know what Joseph meant be the unity of the Gods in the Book of Mormon and or other contexts before 1835-38. There are several possible reasons for such the omission of separation. Even I can suggest several possible reasons for this, should anyone care to hear them. Clearly the Bible proves a separation (Acts 7:55; Rev. 5).