This is exactly the kind of trial and error stuff I love to hear about. Used to watch MotorTrend for this very stuff. Now that they've gone Corporate. I'm watching this. Subscribed!!!
Great Test! I've built a bunch of SBC engines with Vortec heads and we always got 375-385hp from them. We used the same GM Goodwrench 190hp short block but with a Comp Cams Retro roller cam (XM270HR). We did the same spring upgrade with the short style valve seals on the stock 906 heads and used an Edelbrock RPM Vortec intake with a 650-680 cfm carb. BTW if you use a Vortec engine and use the XR270HR Cam with the same set up it will produce 355-365hp. It never seemed to be as strong as the Goodwrench combo by about 12-15hp, we always thought it was because the compression of the Vortec engine was a little lower than the Goodwrench with the 64cc chambers. Rich, (and you guys out there) you might have another theory. :-)
I have the 270HR cam in my GM 'hecho en mexico' engine with slightly shaved 906 heads and holley 650. it is a screamer for sure! Much better performing than the sportsman II double hump knockoffs that were on my last SBC.
@@YOUKNOOB port those sportman 11 heads and it would destroy any vortec ported any day.i have almost 300 cfms out of a sportsman 11 head and 200 on the exhaust very good head when ported with a 2.05 valve
@@tonywalker2334 My dad was the head "guru" and he died in 2007. That said, I'm sure you don't have the same problems today with the spring, retainer, and locks that are offered for the Vortec heads. In the beginning (90's) we used PC style seals because we were using dual valve springs, the PC's of the day were skinny allowing room for the dual springs but they had an extra lip on the top that took another 20-30 thousandths sometimes, so we found that using a more expensive single spring with a Viton style seal that was bigger around but actually was a little bit shorter on the guide. Couple that with the right retainer and we had enough room for the lift we were using. We soon stopped using flat-tappets and went to ALL roller cams, at that point, my dad cut down the bosses giving him all the room for many options but in our flat-tappet engines of the day, we were only trying to get .470-/475 lift. My dad used to always say "measure everything 3 times because with the right combination of parts we can come up with the room we need for anything". He would get his height mic, and a test spring and start mix-matching til he found his magic set up. I dont know the part numbers but, I have heard there is an LS "beehive" spring with a short retainer and lock set that will allow .525+ lift on a stock 906 head but I haven't used it. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
@@tonywalker2334 COMP Cams Race Valve Locks 648-16 and COMP Cams Steel Valve Spring Retainers 787-16....you gotta use both along with the beehive ls springs for lift: GM Parts 12499224 Valve Spring for LS1 Engine
I had a 75 L82, it had 882 heads with 2.02-1.6 valves in them. Also forged single valve relief pistons. I ported the heads and put them on a flat top 400 with a xe262 and 1.6 rockers. The 400 was a torque monster!
We run big valve 882 heads in stock class engines on dirt tracks..they flow fairly well for a big chamber head. Zero decking the block helps them a lot.
882 heads are the best of the worst. Any 441 or 487 casting is a far better choice not only in flow but in strength. The 882 is a light weight casting whereas the 441 and 487 arent. Theyre all stock heads and less than even stock vortecs but thats up to what you want and how much money you have to spend.
I tore down a stock L-82 many years ago out of a mid 70s corvette. It had a forged crank, 4 bolt mains, forged flat top pistons, a windage tray and baffled pan. The heads were big chamber but they had screw in studs and guide plates.
Kimbal Mackinnon Sorry, but I’ve got a stock L-82 from a 74 Vette torn down in the garage, can’t vouch for the windage tray but I can confirm that the original 882 heads do in fact have screw-in studs & guideplates, and can also confirm the forged crank, forged flat-top pistons, 4 bolt mains, as well as “pink” rods. As Richard mentions, the L-82 is a low compression version of the L-46 350/350hp engine, the hottest hydraulic cammed 350 and pretty close in specs (besides cam) to the LT-1. Amazing how the L-82’s quietly carried all that good hardware through the dark days of the 70’s!
@@rustysausage69 All stock, numbers matching 4speed 1975 corvette. Do some research on the L-82.They were a really good engine with really good internals- especially for the smog era. All that good stuff came on it. The L-48 from the same year- none of it.
@@bsrktm1 Yeah, even the L-83 in my 84 vette has forged pistons and a windage tray. The rest of it is cast. The L82 was a pretty good motor to build from.
M W my 1976 corvette L82 had windage tray forged crank pink rods trw pistons 2.02 882 heads . I hand ported the heads and had bronze guides installed and machine work done to allow for springs matched to comp cam with high lift and short duration, rhoads lifters ,roller rockers . Rebuilt engine with clevite 77 bearings double roller timing chain felpro head gaskets with fire rings and moly rings ,hi volume oil pump reworked hei big tube headers dual 3 inch exhaust and super charger with boost referenced 780 Holley . Passenger are pinned to the seat in first and second gear . Agree with all you comments on the L82 also the block are hi nickel go foundation to build on
Stock vortec cylinder heads can make up to 480hp depending on cmpression ratio. They quit flowing at 525 of camshaft lift. I saw a Dyno test on another channel. So 480hp and spray it 350 shot of sniff what ya got? Lol one of the best stock performance heads from factory ever!!! Ed The Professional Backyard Sniper Man😎✌
@@richardholdener1727 yes sir. Its the vortec design air flow. It tumbles downward with the air instead of flowing like conventional older style heads. Its true. Scoggin dickeys sells the stock vortec head that makes that power. He mills the valve guides for higher lift and using beehive high rev springs to 575 lift and opens the exhaust ports slightly and gives the heads one piece stainless valves to match. All with 1.94 in 1.55 valves. Capable of up to 900hp with some kind of boost. About $1000 for the heads. You need a special solid lift roller cam for dirt track specs. No more than 245 dur. 12:1 comp. No B.S try it !
@@richardholdener1727 the Lt1 vortec heads of course with the saw tooth designs on the front of the castings. O62 # I think. Not the 906 casting. They flow more than 220 cfm
@@eddiecahall3824 Guys used to build boosted engines with 8:1 - 9:1 compression. The thinking was less static compression allows more boost. I've been noticing guys building 9:1 - 10:1 static and they're still able to blast big boost at it. How is it being done? Is it higher octane, race fuel, e85, better ECMs??? I'm asking because I'm thinking of building a street driven tow engine. Hoping for MPG and torque. I *think* small 350, efi, and boost. I hope to keep it reliable. If I can't do it with boost, plan B would be to build it naturally aspirated and lower my hp/tq expectations. Have you got any basic guidelines for my build?
I built a 350 for my 78 nova using 882 heads and from my drag strip numbers seemed to make a bit more power than the crate motor here (I had a bigger cam) but it really needed Vortec heads which would have woke it right up for cheap. As much as people love the LS engines Vortec still the best bang for the buck build out there. As simple as go to the junkyard and buy a truck motor! Rebuild with cam and upgraded rockers. Boom 375hp for like $1000 and it literally bolts into any old GM car/truck! Need more? Add a turbo. Wham 500-600hp. Just keep it under 6000rpm or your gunna have a bad time.
Yeah, me too. I cant step up to HR, even if I already have an HR block. I'm guessing the HF would need 8-10 degrees more duration to equal the HR in power, at the expense of bottom end and drivability. What say you, Richard?
One of the biggest gains with a roller is that the profile can be much more aggressive. Even if the lift is the same the roller can get there much quicker. You might be able to get a custom cam that would make everything match. At that point they would be basically the same. You don’t really loose that much in friction with a flat tappet.
Vortec heads are great! As long as you find a set that aren't cracked. They were not very tolerant to being run hot. But still a fantastic factory iron head. I've been considering my options with my two squarebody chevy pickups. Neither one really needs an upgrade but being 79 and 86 both are just your standard smog era 350 low RPM stump pullers. Part of me wants to go with an L31 Vortec engine but part of me wonders why I should go through all that trouble when I could just drop a 5.3 LM7 in and have better power, a more modern fuel injection setup, and far more aftermarket support. It's these struggles that keep me up at night, lol.
Good episode Richard,I built a 408 with self ported iron Vortec heads.2.02 and1.6 Rev stainless valves that were.100 longer then stock so I could Comp 828 springs.They flowed 243 cfm at .400 on intake and 180 cfm on the exhaust.280 Comp extreme hydraulic roller with 1.6 magnum roller rockers and Edelbrock RPMAirgap and a 750 Demon carb,10 to 1 cr.I estimated 500 hp,this motor in a 1980 camaro 4 speed,342 poi’s was scary fast!!!would pull hard to 7000!!was a great street combo
Ported a set of GM vortecs for a friend...ran a smallish cam dp headers etc. Ran 12.80s in a 68 Camaro...lots of low 13 sec runs but it was a heaping ton better than stock and it was cheap. 400ci
"Both the L79 and L46/L82 cams shared the same 114-degree lobe separation angles, but the two offered different intake centerlines and overlap figures. " RH in a Super Chevy web page.
Very interesting, as always! One suggestion tho - what does one change at a time make? Like just changing the cam, just changing the heads, THEN change both to show the combination.
did the same with a 268 roller cam. same head gasket with larger manley pro flow necked down valves and 1.65-1 holland sharp rockers. rpm intake. very peppy lil engine that still got me 21 mpg in a 91 camaro with 3.73 gears and a 2500 lockup hughs converter. 750 holley double.
@@darinr9424 i ran a couple lpg carbs 650 cfm combined and was able to run alot more timing than pump gas 17 mpg on lpg 1500 silverado for 1 dollar per gallon
The L82 also has forged factory crank and hi nickel 4 bolt man crank my 1976 L82 close ratio 4 speed vette makes 550 hp and 478 torque at 5500 rpm with 12 lbs of boost running comp blower cam ported Oem 2.02 factory heads com cam springs to match blower cam and machine work to heads to prevent coil bind .. I have owned the car since 1980 rebuilt the motor in 1989 for blower install raced 2 seasons in auto cross and solo 1 on road tracks in north Eastern Canada in B street prepared. Since I stripped all paint gel coated the body and painted it in blue and diamond metal flake old school paint job with silver and diamond flake cowl stripes and rear end . The car has big tube hooker headers to 3+ inch hand built dual exhaust , modded hei water methanol injection , after market ignition module and accell remote coil and twin electric fans and custom rad . The vette been lots of fun many of the parts are still Oem 1976 like the rotors and all front end mechanical and suspension I added home brew coil overshocks to stiffen up the off road stock suspension using an old school single 2000 lb overloader spring made for a Buick Electra which I cut in half with a grinder and 1/2 the spring to each rear racing shock also all rubbers was swapped to polyurethane.The mod made the ride even stiffer but got rid of the clunky ride and cost me $9.95 Canadian for the kit on clearance handling was greatly improved and in auto cross there was no body roll . The best part of ownership was all mods and rebuilds custom paint was completed in my garage by my self .I thank the deceased owner and mechanics and body men of Rader motors Chevy olds in Parkhill Ontario for teaching me all aspect these car during my 9 years of after school and summer and holiday employment 1967 to 1976 it was a great addition to shop classes and college electronics. 👍👍👍✌️✌️✌️
Would like to see a well ported set of the much maligned camel humps thrown in as a mid level between stock heads and vortecs as with a new intake and other issues really dont make it that cost effective. People always throw 882s in there and they are...well...crap
With some gasket matching and an RV style low rpm cam the 882 heads aren't all that bad. I ran them in a Caprice because I wanted that Grandpa spec stock look.
Yeah, that "190 hp" crate long block is essentially the same as the factory 87-95 TBI truck motor (ERR, ENGINE), a total dog. I've had two of em (in 88-95 TBI trucks) and they were slugs. I tried to soup one up a little with a homebrewed dual exhaust (for off road use only, OF COURSE😜) and TB spacer, CAI, etc. Might've made 210hp. Wheeee.
That sounds like my 4.3 with NV3500 and 3.23 rear gear. Its an absolute turd. I love the 5 speed, I HATE the 4.3 cause its disgustingly underpowered and the 3.23 I can take or leave but would love to swap it for a 3.73. Only issue is Im a poor college student so money is pretty much non existent to me
The L82 was no truck motor it had 9.1 compression 202 160 valves and A 450 460 lift cam. I had A 78 L82 vet with headers and side pipe kit, hot coil, 34 degrees of timing, air gap rpm intake, stage 2 Q jet , OD trans with stall , 355 gears and original cold air induction and it ran 8.60 in the eighth with 17 inch drag tire.
305 heads on a 350 not worth the trouble,combustion chamber sucks and flow isnt good. vortec heads on a 305, \milled 0.03"-0.04" different story,add a nild cam and they make over 300 horsepower as well. www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-9903-305-chevy-small-block-engine-build/
What about two 2" 4 hole phenolic spacers on a brodix 4 hole HP-1 intake manifold? XE274H10 cam, or best cam for it, ported aluminum assault racing heads 213CC runners 10:25:01 compression. The reason is eric weingartner has assault racing heads ported and fixed up by for someone and used a cam that people thought was talking about at O.O5O" specs , although was actually advertised specifications, also had 9.8:1 compression perfect for the cam and fuel, it was a hydraulic roller. Cam Specs:112 LSA, 215*/267*/O.O540" intake, 232*/284*/O.535" exhaust with 1.5 rockers and used 1.6:01 rockers, and made broad flatlines of 425 hp and 425 tq.!. And well i am want to figure out my combo before i build this one perfect for this combo as a base. So you recommend 1.3/4" headers over the 1.5?8" headers? well i may build a couple offset ground stock block strokers at= 377c.i. 350 based and 397c.i. 400 based. Rod ratios same as stock 350. Then the dart block ones at 431, 454, 468, and 483 c.i. SBC GEN 1. And with Dart 4.5" bore space getting 511 c.i. with safe for high power boring, and the billet 4.6" bore space billet blocks that are streetable. These are the directions i am is taking. Or do i just say oh well, get a merlin IV block make it huge , run peanut port aluminum, and be done with it.? i always had my sights make small blocks and keep from making a big block but if it truly is a great option for pro touring camaros that drive every day and tons of miles trouble free, than that is what i am using. Engine dyno pulls shall be loaded as low an rpm as possible. Oh well, i guess i shall just build iron motown ls7 hybrid block engines.
The reason most people will put vortecs on an older 2 piece rear main block Instead of just buying a vortec block is so they don't have to switch flywheels or flexplates. This is the exact reason why I have vortec heads on a 1968 block in my 84 k10. Finding a 1 piece rear main flywheel to work with a 70 year old design muncie 4 speed is almost impossible. Way easier to just put vortecs on a 2 piece block.
I had a jeep that was small block swapped and had a 2 piece rear main in it that I swapped a 1 piece rear main motor in. What a nightmare to get everything working. Long story short, had to use a mini starter and a clutch kit for an Astro van
You should do a video of a 4.2l Ford truck motor build with twin turbo and see what you can do with the hp numbers and see how much you can get out of it
I got a 1989 Chevy c3500 dump truck with the dumper missing but I've been driving it until my brake lines are fixed how do you get more power out of those TBI 350s
The reason I ask is because I have seen on your video where y’all put a cam in there that was larger than 480 lift on Vortech heads and I was wondering if y’all had to machine the heads
Any chance of seeing results on a cam swap on a junkyard vortec 350? Cause I'm about to do that swap. Being a roller cam, higher compression engine, could you expect similar results if you found a roller cam that would work in the vortec application with similar specs to the 270H?
I remember a build in a land long ago where a certain magazine took a 305 chevy sbc with and withdrew around 420-440 hp if I recall .combo used gm vortec heads , edelbrock super victor vortec intake but I dont remember the cam/carb/compression. Would like to see that revisited or replicated. Keep up the bad arse work your putting out.
@@slosew82 That is a very similar build .the one I'm talking about I believe was from a car craft article from late 90s early 2000s. And the heads where from scoggin dickey. I promise I didn't kill your father and I'm not prepared to die lol
@@brianobrian9334 😂 The one I tagged, I remember reading it in print years ago. Everyone hates on the underdog 305 but some guy ran 10s iirc on the power tour with a blown 305 tpi. I've always loved them.
@@slosew82 it's not so much that the 305 is terrible, other than the fact that cylinder filling is its Achilles heel. Mostly, the trouble with a 305 is that the 350 does absolutely everything better, with zero downsides. It's still a good reliable engine, it's just that the 350 is by far the smarter route.
Yeah the stock 462 double humps that came with the 202/160 instead of the194/150 valves do a lot better than the upgraded version of the 202/160 valve's and are a lot closer to the Vortecs
If you look into the ports of the heads, the heart shaped chamber of the vortecs and the smoothed out guide area and open throat makes the vortec easily win 20 cfm over camel hump heads at .500 thousandths lift on a flow bench. The reason is 30 years of innovation of casting and technology. It’s just closer to the idea of a good restriction free port. Plus the floors of the port are raised compared to the really early fuelie heads which helps transitionary changes.
What are "powder metal rods?" I'm an experienced engine builder....went to school for mechanics....loyal SBC builder, But I just haven't built a SBC in 25+ years. this is a term I've never heard or read anywhere. Eagle rods, scat rods, pink rods....these terms I understand. Clarification s greatly appreciated. Great video BTW!
@@richardholdener1727 I'm not sure I'd ever use 'em.....I'm afraid if a crack head ever found out I used "powder metal" rods in my motor, they might tear it down and snort them.
Been tossing around the idea of doing some top end work to my 1988 K5 Blazer. It has a good running 350 TBI crate motor in it, great oil pressure and fires right up. I’m just bored with the swirl ports and performance and it’s only getting 10mpg so I might as well get a little performance out of it. I swapped in a sm465 manual and put 8 lug axles under it with 4.10’s and it’s on 35x12.50’s. Just looking to make it a nice cruiser that runs strong. Vortec heads, the right cam and carb it? I can regulate the in tank pump down to the right fuel pressure. What kind of cam would you be looking at? Love the videos, thanks!
@Richard Holdener I tossed one in a Vortec 350 5 years ago because its a bit hotter than the stock L31 cam, and it has the fuel pump eccentric (I was lucky enough to find a Vortec 350 drilled for Mech fuel pump). So far as actual numbers go I can only speculate, but it definitely runs circles around the stock 160hp 1986 350 I took out.
@@richardholdener1727 according to a major distributor there are NO domed hyper pistons manufactured for the vortec head. Only a forged icon fits the build. I am wondering why? Are flat tops the only hyper pistons for the vortec head?
I'd like to see max compression with stock cam...then max cam with stock compression.then max cam and max compression togather to see witch helped the most and see how much the total togather is
Copy that richard.just a numbers thing for data. I've just stroked my 355 Wich WAS/ kinda hot for the street 12.5 to 1s and .600/.625 wp heads 2.02 /1.60s.. It lost 3 roller tappets @ 7500 .so it's a do over. Now it's 3.750 crank with 13.7s and a new Herbert cam .615 /.620. My lobe sep went from 108 to 110 guessing I'm going to pick up more tq than hp . It's .040 over now so I think it's 388? Guessing on the cid..hoping for 550 on the hp. My heads are the hold back only 185 intake runners
ive done the same basic thing ive got a stock bottom end vortec head swap but i used the xe268h cam with self aligning roller rockers and chromolly pushrods a dual plane intake and a 650 edelbrock so do you think i can expect close to the same results
Richard how much power is lift worth I think lift is a great upgrade for torque and hp in my opinion a higher lift cam with less duration is as powerful as a bigger cam with more duration less lift can you do a test to show how much lift affects power and how and we’re in the rpm .most ls cams are 550+ lift and the older stuff performance cam lift is a way less can older style heads not handle lift or don’t have enough flow yo benefit from higher lift
