So many people ask the same question: Why didn't you charge during 30 minute lunch? The answer is quite obvious, but not so clear for many people. The car has only 3.5 kW on-board charger. It means that during 30 minutes, you will only get about 10 km of range. And the price per km for the electricity is in fact higher than for fuel. That's becuase you have to pay 1 SEK/minute to get access to 22 kW AC. But you can only utilize 3.5 kW of it. And if I would charge there, I had to park the car at McDonald's, waste precious time pulling out the type 2 cable, plug it in, start charging and then reverse the process after food. And the charger is about 1 minute walk away from ChopChop. It's quite clear that adding 10 km of range has absolutely no impact since we have more than enough range anyways. I checked the refueling at 16:00. It fills up the fuel at a rate of 34,300 km/hour. So 10 km of range would take about one extra second to fill up while you're already refueling. I don't know if that make sense to you or not. The whole charging process would have taken 3-4 minutes extra while saving only 1 second of refuel time. Now let's see how many people who will still ask this question in the comment section :P
Makes sense, thanks, I wondered the same! And I guess in terms of CO2 emissions (because EV drivers care, right?), those 10km extra EV range (or 50km if you go all the way) will not really make all that much difference for your carbon footprint either, considering you've burned fuel for at least 900km anyway.
Absolutely right Bjorn I have an Ioniq PHEV and I very rarely plug in away from home it's not worth the hassle for a few miles. I was on holiday in Devon last year in a lodge and the owner let me plug in every night for free which was perfect for me. Everyone has different ideas on what they want their car to be or do but there should be one common want for all drivers, keep the air we breathe as clean as possible.
I agree that it's in that case not worthwhile to add just 10 km of range during a 30 minute break. But which charging network asks for 1 SEK / minute for AC-charging? My experience is that AC charging is usually paid for by the kWh, not by the minute - usually 2-3 SEK / kWh in Sweden. Much cheaper than petrol!
@@bdeithrick I agree I never block a charger because I have an alternative method of propulsion BEV'S don't. The Ioniq PHEV out of interest cannot use above 22kw. When I first got the car I tried to use a 50kw charger just for interest but it wouldn't have it.
Hi Bjorn I get regularly asked is my battery degrading fast on my Ioniq PHEV because I constantly run it very low and I charge it to 100% every time because it is a small battery. I have not noticed any degradation in over 2 years and I believe it is because on a PHEV the battery never gets stressed. The maximum charge rate is 3.3kw but mostly 2.2kw on my domestic supply and when driving when I accelerate hard the engine kicks in and does the hard work taking the strain off the battery. As I see it a BEV battery gets rapid charged which apparently degrades batteries and under hard acceleration it has to supply a lot of juice to the motor so it doesn't have such a peaceful life. That is how I see it and I would like, your views on it too, you may disagree and you have more experience with EV's than I have.
Thank you Björn for the video! I really liked that you have added a reference fossil car to the 1000 km challenge. To me it makes perfect sense to have a benchmark in the table. Also the upcoming EV's now have something to beat.
@@greengrubwoodentoysaustral8452 Probably VW, they have mentioned a wagon version of the id3 with "perfect aerodynamics" Not sure if it can tow though.
No, they want do this. Check how much battery is popped up from eNiro/Kuna. There is not enough clearance for it. They need design that car from scratch as electric.
Excellent video, as always, Bjørn! I have a BEV and a PHEV. Both going fully electric locally and only charged at home. Of 30000km on both cars, 10-20% is long distance high speed driving in Europe with the PHEV which has 85 litre fuel tank. I can then stop where I want to stop and not where the car needs me to stop. Fuel cost is not the high cost when owning two new cars. Fun fact: I also have two heat-pumps in my house saving more electricity than both cars use!
@@0hypnotoad0 you do not need to stop there often and for long time. It is next to your hotel at the end of your travel after 1000 km and takes 4 minutes without any planning in any country. Great flexibility on my holidays
Our Outlander PHEV can actually use Chadamo and charge at around 16kw, so on longer trips we usualy just plan a few stops and top up a bit a on the battery :) Dont know why so many PHEV's does not include fast charging.
@@Aleks-kx3zj faster than 3.7kw ac, I know its not "fast", but in 20 min I actually have 25-30km of range, its super convenient eg when shopping on the daily commute. Much much faster than only having ac.
Fast charging on a small battery would put a lot more stress on it. So even if it was available, not sure it would be such a good idea to ram 50kW or faster speeds into it.
@@kardy12 just because it's charging on a 50kw charger does not mean it receive 50kw. I think it maxes out at around 16kw, and as it has a 14kwh battery it's only around 1,1C, and that's really not that hard on any lithium battery. It's all down to the chemistry, some rc lipos can charge at like 15C+.
Some Mercedes PHEV's have DC charging too nowadays. They use a CCS plug at 24 kW max I think for the A-class PHEV (might be different for other models).
Good test and relevant for people to make a decision. For Norway it's very clear that an EV saves money and you don't loose too much time. For my country (Germany) it's different. Fuel is cheaper and electricity costs way more and you don't get a VAT discount for EVs like in Norway. Model 3 SR+ costs about 20k € more than the Ceed PHEV. Since you can use electricity for daily driving anyway and costs for long trips are not significantly higher, an EV doesn't save you any money. A car in the same price range here is Ioniq, but 1.000 km in Ioniq will take 5 hours longer. Now people need to decide what they want.
Well for Germany there is now id3. It should work pretty well, and its VW... For short city trips used EV is best choice as a second car... And you save big money buy not buying Hybrid in the first place...
If someone wants to tweak and optimize consumption, cruise at 120km/h on the speedo (and not 125 as Björn did), because the Ceed PHEV will run in HEV Mode only if you go faster than 120km/h. And also use the SatNav and Auto-Mode (not EV Mode), so the car can decide, when to spend the batterie. It will not make a big difference, but burning less dinosaur juice is always good :)
Sorry I'm not sure I understand - cruising at 120km/h would have made the car use battery in a 'smart' way rather than emptying it all at the beginning?
Very nice test! Thanks a lot for showing the time it takes to do a long trip on EV over plug-in hybrid. This was very important for me to see. I don't have much driving experience and you clearly showed that driving on petrol vs electric is not that time consuming anymore. The long trips are the only doubt I used to have. Not anymore, thanks to you. Thanks a lot for your dedication and performing such tests. Your channel, by far, is the most interesting. Thanks for the comparison charts on Drive.
Been hoping to see this challenge comparison, very interesting and thanks for doing it! Of course in addition to the surprisingly small time difference there is that sweet freedom of knowing your fuelstop is 2 minutes not 20 or 50 minutes, and no risk of a significant queue at the pump 😜 Agree completely that chargers should have the same simple UI, som much easier. Also Nice car and quite relevant choice! 👍
An interesting plug in competitor would be an Hyundai IONIQ Plug In Hybrid. The plug in has the same tank size of around 43l as my normal hybrid while providing around 50 to 60km on electric. Going with the same consumption that I get with my normal Hybrid of 3.7-4.2l per 100km you should be able to easily do the 1000km with a single tank and charge combined. Would be very interesting to see how much Norways and Swedens elevations impact this forecast to be honest
I have Ioniq PHEV and real range is somewhere around 900km with half road at 135km/h tacho speed and avg summer consumption under 4,5l/100km (with 4 people on board, full-ish trunk and 1 full charge in mid-point)...
I had a chevy volt before my tesla. It has a “mountain mode “. The motor will fill ip the battery to 50% for attacking mountains. It would use it as would get close to my destination i would kick it on so i could drive electric in the cityi.
Nice quick fuel stops. In Germany you have to first fill up, then walk into the store, stand in line behind customers buying coffee and pastries and deciding what brand of cigarettes they want... it takes at least five minutes to pay.
1000km challenge is a very relevant challenge for anyone who regularly or even occasionally takes road trips and is looking to purchase an EV. EVs are far better city cars than almost any ICE vehicle, but the struggle has been making them less inconvenient for long trips. I plan on doing a similar topic on my channel once its up and running, doing a 500mile challenge (I will give credit to you for the idea!) on US roads and the weaker US charging infrastructure.
The reason for not regenerate downhill may be because of use of cruisecontrol. If you have driven without (adaptive) cruisecontrol and coasted downhill, using either your brake pedal lightly or maybe a regenerate setting on the gear-shifter (like the B on the Volvo T8) you most likely would be some % higher at the bottom.
Great video with great scientific value! Thank you, Bjorn! You make great points about the fact that a lot of the charging time will actually be quality time to eat or visit places or whatever.
Thanks for the honest testing! For comparison the pricing in Germany: 170 kWh per 0,33€ -> 56,10€ plus 60 kWh per 0,31€ -> 18,60€. Still cheaper, but very close.
Thank you Bjorn for the video. It proves again, that EVs are not that bad as people think. A few years ago, I've read that in Germany, the average car drives 70 km per day. I live in Switzerland, where the distances are shorter than in Germany, but 70 km would apply here as well. The range of my Tesla Model X 100D is actually enough, that I can cover even longer trips with a single charge and I use the Superchagers every 2-3 months once or twice. It is correct, that a longer road trip will cost me 30 minutes more of my time, but with my Model X, I have every morning a fully charged (okay, it's only 80% to be specific) car. Before with the Diesel I had to fill up the tank once a week. It's correct, that you can fill up the tank in 5 minutes, but the detour through the gas station will cost me 15 minutes. That means, I've spent every week 15 minutes with filling up the tank of my Diesel car. An electric car is here a clear benefit, as I can safe this time.
@Seb C Absolutely - I was one of them. My calculation regarding Teslas maintenance cost was totally wrong. I never expected, that it would be that cheap.
Good honest challenge. When talking about petrol price comparisons, don't forget that the petrol price includes road tax, which will be added to ev travel costs one day.
And energy tax, and eco tax, etc. At least in Germany the taxes on fuel make more than 60% of the price. So yeah once it will start becoming more mainstream it will change. You can basically double the price then but hey in the first years it is cheaper :)
Yeah, it doesn`t really work like that... Double the pack means more weight( less fuel efficient) and also less power(already really slow) and much more expensive. They need to increase engine or motor power... Add at least $5.000...
@@DG-uv3zw Also the engine dies if it is not used much. BMW has a Service function that the engine has to be used regularly otherwise it takes damage. Even with this shieeett, a lot of REX engines die because of boredom. Just go for a little EV like VW-e up. Don't go Hybrid, just don't. Still all the dirty and costly fossil shit onboard.
Very good point for plug ins, they get fully cycled, this is where LifePO4 has more cycle life but similar issues and more weight. Plug ins hybrid failed big time here.
@@davids.6671 the battery is guaranteed for 7y or 150k km, whatever comes first. So in six years, with 3000 full cycles, your battery would still be in warranty. I wouldn't worry about that.
Nice video Bjørn, although I disagree with your calculations as they don't present a realistic picture of vehicle ownership. To buy and drive a Tesla Model 3 LR here for a total of 100,000km, assuming 90% of the charging is done at home at 0.10c night rate, with the remaining at a Supercharger, the total would come out to around €61,000. A Kia XCeed PHEV, assuming 80% of travel is in EV mode and charging at home, would cost about €32,000 after 100,000km. The gasoline equivalent would be around €35,000 in the same scenario. So you are not really saving €60 by driving a Tesla, and I see it as very misleading. Comparing something in a similar price range and class would have made more sense. The only thing that I did not take into account is depreciation and the model 3 would be at a huge advantage, but as Teslas become more mainstream and battery technology improves, the ones with the older battery packs will begin to depreciate faster. Either way, you would need to have about 60k vs. 30k intiially. Compare the charging time with a Leaf 62kWh, which is more expensive than the XCeed and drives like Queen Mary- and you now have a difference of 4.5 hrs. The technology is getting there, but we are not there yet.
I like your analysis at the end, but for me at least it's not about money or travel time, it's more about the hassle of keeping your eye on the battery level with EVs and charging more frequently than Diesel cars. I know this hybrid doesn't have a long range but if you do the challenge with a Volkswagen Golf for example, you won't even need to think about refueling since it has up to +1200km of range on a single tank. Of course you will stop to rest but you won't have to think about charging all the time, and you can stop wherever you want, not specifically in a gas station.
25:06 this is surprisingly fast. I usually end up with 100km/h average (including breaks) in Germany when driving at 130. There is always traffic or construction zones bringing down your average. I guess the difference is how many breaks you do, I'd do 3-4 on 1000km.
The car might not use regen unless the cruise control is on, or the brake is applied slightly. It might have a setting similar to the Prime's 'charge mode' that lets you charge up the battery before a fuel stop, so you leave with a full tank plus full charge.
Thank you for doing this challenge Bjorn. As you say, this is a good reference for fossil vs EV to show that EV's are close to fossil cars (and will soon surpass them) in long distance driving times. Keep up the good work on your videos and your balanced and well thought out tests/challenges/reviews. Really enjoy them!
So over 1000km and 9+ hours driving a Tesla model 3 Performance is 35 mins slower. I think most people can live with that difference, as most people don't do 1000 km very often and when we do that distance mostly we stop more frequently than that.
Most people can live with the difference but most people can't pay 60k euros or more. How much does that Kia cost? 26k? I think the correct question should be: would you pay 40k euros more because of the ecology? I have 2 sons and 1 daughter. What car could I buy?
Don't get me wrong Bjørn and all here, I am agree in general with all of you. I (we) have big difficulties here in Spain. You have way way more chargers in your country than in ours, so the electric choice have to point to Tesla, which is not a problem. I could buy the M3 SR+ but it won't be the best solution to my 5 occupants needs. So I need the Model S, which I love but I can't afford it. The Model Y is the choice. I like it and I can deal with panel gaps and all that kind of things that I don't really mind too much. So I have to spend the biggest amount of money by far I've ever spent in a car that I don't like the most, but....could be. The nearest service point is about 2 and half hours away from my house. The ranger service takes 10 days in North Spain to attend the service. Not all the countries are like Norway, Sweden, Holland...and I am considering to buy a second hand Model S but...it's a risky business... Apart from that, I think that this kind of videos are the most important. Here in Spain, we are still discussing whether the batteries are more pollutant than the diesel. The majority of the people here don't distinguish hybrid, plugin hybrids or even electric (Toyota is guilty for this). The electric vehicle is for rich and mad people, they say. We need this kind of videos.
I dare you to try a CNG 1000 km challenge! Since most newer CNG cars come with only 9 liters gasoline tank.. planning is key and also luck about finding station with good pressure to max out cng gas tank capacity. Sweden have at least decent CNG stations. But also exciting to see money efficiency and how much of total distance were made by fossil. In Sweden most CNG stations have 100% bio to offer. Then no co2.
This was a great video to show that BEVs are better. Better than the acceleration test video because you get to make so many good points when comparing how stops are for each drivetrain. :)
The only PHEV I would drive: 250 hp 50kwh battery 20 L fuel tank The 3 cylinder gasoline engine only as range extender Driving on electricity only. Model 3 owner btw
Yeah the Rex is the one that inspired me to write this hehe Funny how the plug-in hybrids that serious EV owners want to own/drive don't even exist even after all these years of electromobility. The legacy carmakers want to maintain the status quo and make dorky little circus clown cars.
@@ivancajka732 I think it would be too expensive to make and thus there aren't enough customers for it. And in the normal auto industry, it's all about the size of demand. Designing a car and buying robots to make it and setting up the factory is a huge expense, so the auto makers need to sell a large amount of a certain model before they even cover costs. Thus they are so risk averse with trying new things, they are afraid of losing time and resources on things that won't provide a return and in a way they are correct since too many such mistakes can easily make the whole company fail. And also, we know from EV history how for people who didn't want to wait at chargers, Tesla actually created 5-minute stop battery swap places for the model S. But people didn't use that service at all and thus it got abandoned, even though so many kept begging Tesla how they'd like to have it in the first place.
Ivan, I think that very few people who have driven an EV with a 50 kWh battery (and true fast charging) would think it is imperative to carry around 15 kg of fuel. How much would that even add after generation and storage losses? About 29 to 30 kWh?. Good base for a debate though.
Dear Bjorn, I loved this 1000km challenge as usual! I think it's very interesting to make a comparison between the full electric and the plug-in hybrid. If you will have the chance, I would love to see the tests of Volvo XC40 PHEV Recharge, BMW X1 225 xe and so on ... with important focus on real consumption.
I have a Kia PHEV on order for my next company car (in the UK), only options on the company list were petrol / Diesel standard ICE or a choice of 2 PHEV the Mini or a Kia Niro, the Niro is the more efficient and best in size for our family, so I went for that. It will save me £2k each year in fuel and tax, so it's the best option. Yes I would much prefer a Model 3 or E-tron but they are double our budget for a company car and so not on the list. I would say around 50% of the journeys (not milage) will be via EV, so its a real good options for many users who have no better option.
Once the Model 3 gets the new battery, the battery day will show and the 1000km challenge will be done with the v3 Superchargers, Tesla is as fast, or faster then a Hybrid.
Yeah sure Tesla will have developed a battery with more than 2x the capacity / l or capacity / kg. Like all of the other, bigger and industry leading battery manufacturers did not manage to do that... Come on Tesla is also just a company and not a magic show. If they improve it by 20% I will be surprised and the battery day get just delayed further and further. I really can not understand the hype created around Tesla. Its a car, thats it. And in the near future there will be electric cars that will equal the performance of the Tesla. So yeah.
With my DIESEL Citroën C5 lll tourer, I probably would do it with just One tank, 70 liters cap. BUT I would not be faster than an EV if I did travel with wife and sons. I would have to stop every 2 hours or so ( pee and snac stops😁), and at least one hour for proper lunch. If I did travel alone, it would another talk. With family, the travel would be as fast as with the diesel, for sure.
Luís Fernandes it looks like you have never had to grab that precious "drive while they are sleeping" mode 😀 for me it was some 800km in one go in 6.5h once - no EV is there for quite a few years to come
@@MikeDeeee no why, this doesn't make sense. I took exactly the same consumption data as Bjorn, just with German pricing: so for fossil: 1.35 €/L * 61 L = 82.35€ for EV (TESLA): 175 kWh * 0.4 €/kWh (SUC) = 70€ 60 kWh * 0.3 €/kWh (at home) = 18€ total: 70€ + 18 € = 88€ for EV (E-Tron): 220 kWh * 0.35 €/kWh (IONITY) = 77€ 70 kWh * 0.3 €/kWh (at home) = 21€ total: 98€ and this is with quite a high fossil price, I often see it here for around 1.2 €/L
@@zocker1600 The 230 Wh/km seem very high for a Model 3 driven at moderate speeds in Sweden and Norway (i.e. even with Björn's "VAT" he would probably not go above 130 km/h often). My Ioniq (with all-season tyres) uses around 180 Wh/km with adaptive cruise control set to 135 km/h (=130 km/h GPS) in summer; I thought the Model 3 was just as efficient. I pay just under 25 Cent per kWh at home/destination and typically 30-35 Cent per kWh on the road at CCS fast chargers. So for a mix of 1:3 for home/destination charging and fast charging (as typical on a longer trip), I end up with €5.50 per 100 km. At a speed of 130 km/h, petrol definitely can't beat this. An efficient Diesel car can get close though with current prices.
@@MikeDeeee I fully agree with your numbers, I wonder why Bjorn's consumption is so high, I was just taking his kWh numbers. But that being said, in Germany prices are still higher, at home I pay 30 Cent / kWh and on CCS fast chargers it can go all the way up to 70 ct / kWh when I assume a mix with an overall price of 35 ct/kWh and 180 Wh/km then it's 6.30€ / 100km Diesel is 1.06€/L (!) right now over here, so when I assume 5,5 L/100km then it's 5.83 € / 100km pls don't get me wrong, I am 100% PRO EVs, but the price argument doesn't cut it, because it is not really cheaper you can see the current prices in DE here: www.clever-tanken.de/statistik/historie/diesel
@@zocker1600 aren't those the consumption numbers for 120km? I also don't think it's a big deal that it may cost 20$ more for big trips like this when 99% of other charging costs 1/10th. Especially when we're talking about only really efficient hybrids. All other fossils will be worse.
Need to say that this comparation works in Norway, where the gas is expensive and electricity is kind of cheap. In my country I drive with PHV about 40% chceaper than my previous EV. The reason is that 1 liter of 95 gasolin costs about 1,15 € and 1 kWh of electricity costs 0,2 € when charging at home. I've got kind of efficient PHV (Prius 2020) so even highway driving (130 km/h) costs me no more than 5 € per 100 km. So far 2 500 km costs me 100 € (gas and electric included). Oh and charging of my PHV requires at least 1 hour long stop otherwise it´s just wasting your time with handling the cable.
In Germany (in the Noth west region) fuel costs on average 1,31€ per liter. Electricity at home is 0,265€per kw/h and 0,33€ per kwh at the supercharger. So the fossil would cost 79,91€ (actually a bit more because you also spend electricity) and the Tesla would cost 72€. So it's only a 8€ saving (this year). With a more normal fuel price of 1,45€/L it is 88,45€. So the savings would double.
I am so envious of you oil rich fjeld aber 😊 A Kia Ceed for 430k or an e-tron for 500k? How is that even possible. PHEV does make a lot of sense in Denmark right now from a price standpoint. A fully loaded beautiful Peugeot 508 SW Hybrid is exactly the same price as a SR+ - a lot more luxury, space and tech for the money.
@@Godmothertycoon that's what happens when you play international poker with Germany.. Giving away a large oilfield in the North Sea to Norway in order to get a stronger hand against Germany was not the smartest thing Denmark did..
@@haveaseatplease New national borders had to be negotiated when the international rules changed for how far out the national control retched out in the see. No test wells were allowed before the bordered were set. So the counties guestimate where the oil was. Denmark wanted the largest parcel possible twords Germany. In order to strengthen their case against Germany, they signed a border deal with Norway with the same method which would give them the greatest sea area against Germany.. They lost the case against Germany, and a large oil field was found in the sector given to Norway.
Luftmotståndet ökar drastiskt över 70-80km/h så vid 110km/h blir det sällan laddning av nedförsbackar. Jag kör volvo v60 plug-in och den laddar bra när det är kraftigt medlut och jag kör efter 80-90 km/h vägar😊👍
Interesting! I would very much like to see more PHEV cars tested since more and more manufacturers are bringing them to the market. For us mortals that don't have Tesla present in our countries and not even a well developed charging network, a PHEV car is a good compromise in this transition period. Personally I want to know more about how different brands implement the hybrid drive train and how different modes affect the consumption. So, for this Kia for example, I'd like to see how it's most efficient to do let's say a 250 km stretch: hybrid and constant chilling all the way or EV mode as long as possible then hammering and stopping to plug and charge, etc. Some of the new PHEVs, from BMW or Mercedes, are now getting real ranges close to 75km which is amazing for a daily commute or a few short trips around town, which is what most people want, me included. Then, for the weekly or monthly weekend getaway, I can rely on the petrol tank for the longer runs, without worrying about chargers being available on my route or not. Please consider testing a PHEV car now and again in the future. Some brands like Kia with the Niro have EV - PHEV siblings which might be interesting to compare head to head and useful too.
Plugin hybrids are silly, if you need to use the petrol engine regularly they are relatively expensive to run, they are expensive to maintain, they are expensive to buy (unless you get a taxpayerfunded discount). If you want/need to drive far for cheap; get a diesel, and if you can afford it, use a small second hand EV-wifey-car for the local stuff. Last week I did 1400 km on one tank in my 10 year old diesel without even trying. I paid ~77 euro for a full tank, that's 0.05 euro pr km in fuel cost.
Plugin hybrids are great for people who commute within the battery range and then sometimes drive longer. You can commute pollution free without paying the premium for electric.
Great to see Bjorn driving PHEV. So many good PHEVs coming out now, like RAV4 Prime and big SUVs like Aviator and XC90. We want a PHEV with a huge high-capacity battery.
I'm loving having the PHEV as reference. The difference is that in a fossil you can stop for a break or to eat exactly anywhere you like on a long journey. It doesn't have to be at a petrol station. In the EV you are limited to where the chargers are if you are in a hurry. That's what you give up with an EV. I have for the first time dared to rent an EV for a half month visit to Sweden and Norway later in the year (that I hope goes ahead). It will be interesting to see how long distance EV driving works out where high powered charging networks are much better than where I live. Still a bit worried I'll struggle to pay for charging at places... Had it just been me and the wife I'd stuck to a PHEV but as we'll be having our baby son with us I'm sure we'll slot in enough stops at chargers + several other non charging stops too so travel time won't be affected at all despite driving about 3000km with a majority done over 4 long travel days. Or my wife will end up saying I told you it was a bad idea to rent an EV...
The instrument cluster in my opinion looks way nicer than the one one in the e-niro or soul ev. I don't understand why they don't use something like this, maybe when they do a model revision, they will start using it.
That's the "new" instrument cluster available in the ceed (and its siblings) range. It's not even available as standard everywhere - where I live, it's an optional extra.
I have some comments on both the choice of PHV and car owner economics. No, I am Swedish and not anti-EV, I presently own a BMW I3 REX with 200 km electric range. I was seriously into switching to Polestar 2 since I liked the car and the low hatchback concept and I need a towbar. So bear with me. I make mostly short trips about 20-40 km (85-90%), and occasional longer trips. I test drove the Polestar2, a very nice car indeed, and then did my cost calculation before finalizing my order. I checked the charging cost at quick-chargers and note that prices also at 50 kWh are increasing alarmingly only the last year at least in Sweden. The other alarm signal about ownership of an EV is when I look at the remaining depreciation rate of my I3, the value is more than 20% lower between a 2-year and a 3-year old car. I had two options, either a Polestar 2 (or Tesla Y, not 3 since I have a dog) or a PHV Estate (I don't like SUVs). Volvo is too technically complex (the supercharger compressor) and thirsty. BMW 3 Touring is on the horizon but only has a 3.7 kW onboard charger. Mercedes id an interesting alternative. The A250e has a very good electric range and a 7.4 kW charger. The rear compartment is a bit too small for my dog, so I tested a C300e Touring and it was no problem to run 50+ km on battery only. It also has 7.4 kW charger. The battery hump does not mean much to me. The comfort is very good and the energy-saving technology is superb. I also have a sporty summer convertible, a MB C300 2018 model with a 48V mild-hybrid system to recuperate brake energy (6.5-7 l/100km). So occasional long trips will not become too expensive to fuel up. But the main difference is that the C300e (demo vehicle) is more than €20 000 cheaper to buy. Since I drive between 10000-15000 km/year, It will take forever to make the EV cheaper to own. So for persons that can charge at home and mainly do short daily commuting (the majority) PHV is a very good if not the best selection for environmental reasons. But please Björn, try to test a good state of the art PHV next. A 7.4 kW charger makes relaxed dinner stops suitable for topping up battery (about 1.5 h) on the road too. And the issues with brake energy recuperation show that KIA is not leading PHV technology.
Could you please do the same test with diesel and diesel/plug-in? Because i wanna buy a GLE 350or300 DE. Great work btw! Congrats! Greatings from a volvo employee of Ghent
Quite usefull this test to put his other 1000KM challenge results into perspective. To be honest I thought the fossil to ev gap would have been bigger.
I just don't get PHEV's philosophy. Big and heavy polluting cars, with underused electric motorisation. Studies showed that in my country, France, majority of owners never charged the battery (no home charging station+poor public charge network). It's a shame theses vehicles benefit from tax advantages, thanks to WLTP aberrations.
Plug in hybrids really only make sense if you plug it in at home like a ev and commute with the electic range but want/need the option of driving further, but you could probably make due with a ev then. Most people i know as well with plug ins, never plug them in, might as well get a fossil or non plug in hybrid then, because as you said all the extra weight make them less efficient when you don't start with full battery.
I plug mine in whenever I get home and it scheduled charges at night when the rates are lowest. I've gone two months and 2.500 km without a fill-up, and had it not been for Covid that would have been 4,250 km thanks to my daily all-electric commute. Totally worth it for me, thank you. Why not a full EV for me? I'm selfish. In the winter when I do ten or more 400+ km round trips for snowboarding I don't want to have to stop and charge. A Model 3 Long Range could have done it but I just couldn't afford one. I'm sure my next car will be a full EV though, as prices have been coming down as volumes have been going up, and the charging network for non-Tesla's here in Canada is finally starting to fill in.
@@KevinT3141 Yes, your situation is ideal for PHEVs :) only problem is you are maybe one in a million :D Btw, in winter because all that extra battery and weight(and huge petrol consumption) you basically nullify that summer gain :) well, almost... but certainly to some degree... And yeah, in 8 years of exploitation you can throw away that battery...
@@KevinT3141 Worth it for you, you use it as it should but as I said it seems that lot of PHEV owners don't charge on daily basis at home. I feel like these hybrid vehicles cumulate flaws of both elec and fossil techs, with low efficiency of electric motorisation that, yet, worsens CO2 emissions of the fossil one.
As it is a PLUG-IN Hybrid, why didn't you charge it while you had lunch? Also, you also have to calculate the difference in purchase price of both cars...
Dusan Gavrilovic ok that actually makes sense... 👍 But still, like Bjorn always says, always remember your ABC’s, Always Be Charging. But that would have made the trip even more expensive I guess...
On my first stop, I had a 5 minute restroom break. That would add 1.5 km of range to the battery. But I would waste 3 minutes starting and stopping the charge. 30 minute ChopChop stop would have added 10 km of range. But I had to park further away MC Donald's and walked over to ChopChop. And the added range in a fossil car is insignificant.
On the long holiday trips this summer we used the diesel car even though we have two electric cars. We saved a lot of time, without spending so much more money. Just as this test showed us.
I dont think the Model S Raven LR would beat the Model 3, because the Model 3 has slightly better charging speed on CCS Supercharger and better charging curve. But would probably be very close!
Good calculation. Bit how much cheaper is the the Kia or Tesla so it gets more perspective. If the Tesla would cost 8000€ more than it would take years to break even no?
Appreciate the perspective.A proper benchmark hybrid might be the new Prius or its Honda counterpart, they are supposedly the most efficient. Curious if you could have them as well
Over an hour once you take out the full restaurant meal and other messing about. Thats also comparing any fossil to the best ev so unless you want to pay Tesla money its hours of difference.
@@SirHackaL0t. Good for you. You would also be paying more money for a car which then forces more stops and doesn't give you much choice in where they are. One of my vehicles is an ev but I'm not blind to its limitations.
@@siraff4461 More chargers are appearing all the time, and when you say much choice, I think it’s better than petrol stations which can be very expensive on the main routes.
You have been gently for electric cars, you could have done it in 9h with a fossile. Personnaly, I can only acheive 86% of the speed of my old fossile cars. Model 3 personal best over 600km is 95km/h and about 85-88km/h for 1600km on the same run/day. With a fossile on the same conditions I could average 110km/h So, me against me, same road ,same conditions is : Model 3 average speed = 0.86 x fossile average speed. Thanks for the test :-)
Hi again Björn, If You do not get a MB C300e to test from a Norwegian dealer, You will be welcome to use mine after Sept 20 when I receive the demo car. Tell me if you take this offer.
Wee all know that burning fuel is not really good and ice cars howners also criticize ev for not being that green,true but one critical element that no one talks about is that for burning fuel in a ice engine is that you need air at 21% of oxygen, it would be interesting to know for a 1000km how much air is needed !!! Can you imagine the quantity of fresh air is waisted.
Look up what actually comes out of an ice exhaust then look up what makes up air. Every liter of air passed throught the engine comes back out - just not in the same mix as it went in.
You should try this 1000km challenge with a Model 3 LR with the 18" aerowheels, the car should be more efficient than your Performance and faster in the end.
It's pointless. It might consume 10-20 Wh/km less which equals to 10-20 kWh less. That takes about 5 minutes extra to charge up. I'm not going to waste my time doing that test. The data we have are already good enough to estimate the time for Model 3 with 18".
Next test for the Teslas should be: v3 Supercharger and the time advantage of them. Also the new palladium S/X will be able to use v3 Supercharger(CCS only), because they will have CCS. My guess is that B-day will bring more information in that regard.
@@kasmopaya2676 Good point! EVs (especially Tesla) is continously improving. Whereas fossil cars seems to be going the wrong way. A few years ago, diesel with 70 liter tank was more common. Nowadays, you get 35-40 liter tank only because of PHEV.
@@bjornnyland Indeed Bjørn! I think PHEV are the worst of both worlds, i take i3 Rex for example. BMW has an interval, if you drive electric only, the fossil engine has to be used from time to time, so it doesn't take damage from boredom. But even with this forced fossil drive, the engines die sometimes, because they want to be used. Just like the brakes on any car, if they are not used, they die because of rust(boredom). So in the end, you still have oil changes, a exhaust, and all the stuff to carry around. Avoid RHEVs at all costs, go for little EVs, or save up for a good EV i would say. "Model 2" is coming from Giga Berlin in the next years, millions of Teslas per year, Musk says. Just don't go RHEV in the meantime. Better then diesel of cores, but meh. Good evening to you and your wife.
Bjørn Nyland you are right, I did not think that way... I just thought it would be nice to see the very best time we can get so that we can compare it directly to other cars without having to do the math (even though I like maths). Anyway, great video once again. 👍
Is it powerfull enough to maintain 130km/h even in rises when the batterie is like 8% ? Not understand everything with thé sport mod at 125kmh, it does not recharge the batterie ? so How do you regen from 10% to 40% ? Thx
@@bjornnyland From A250e configurator at mercedes-benz.de: Gleichstrom-Ladesystem (DC-Laden) 24 kW 580,00 € Für Ihre optimale Ladegeschwindigkeit mit maximal 24 kW und damit hohen Komfort. BTW, this is also nice: Wechselstrom-Ladesystem (AC-Laden) 7,4 kW 348,00 € Mehr Flexibilität im Alltag: Mit dem leistungsstarken Wechselstrom-Ladesystem mit bis zu 7,4 kW (2-phasig) laden Sie Ihren Plug-in-Hybrid schnell und einfach.
@@bjornnyland In 30min, you can get the battery back to almost 100%, giving 50-60km of range. Battery has a usable capacity of 10-11kWh (net 15kWh). Time-based tarifs are probably not so attractive when max charging speed is 24kW.
Im looking at a 2021 model. So Will I be able to drive 22km to and from work on electric and charge it at home every day? That Will save me some money!
How about testing a no compromise PHEV Mercedes Benz GLE 350 de? Its battery has a range of 103 km and has a CCS for fast charging. It has proper regeneration and for long trip for backup has a 2L turbodiesel. The company claims almost 900 km full range. You might need just one refuel and 2 fast charging on 1000km trip. Stay safe everybody!
@@bjornnyland Thank you for prompt answer. I still do not understand why people in Norway buy PHEVs? You have shown that infrastructure there is developed enough for EVs. Is that connected to long trips in Sweden or Finnland? From the taxation standpoint, parking, using bus lane, free ferries, free charging downtown and no need of serious maintenance an BEV is no brainer in Norway in comparison to any type of cars. Here in Minnesota the distance, lack of yet proper charging infrastructure especially in cold winter surely make people buy either a Tesla or a PHEV. In Norway to buy a new fossil car for commute does not make any sense to me. Thanks once again for your hard worked informative videos always chasing the truth.
@@nevco8774 the cars in Sweden are too expensive and give back too little on tax. In Norway, you get back much more in tax when you buy an electric car. If I livet in Norway I whould have bought an electric car immediatley. I whould love to have an EV but i have to wait in Sweden if i dont want to play 50-100% more
Kudos to Bjørn for doing this reference video and great to see you back in Sweden. Välkommen tillbaka! The great advantage with PHEVs is that you actually can- IF you charge daily- reduce your daily fossil consumption by at least 60%. With a tiny, tiny battery. The production of that battery CO2 wise pays off pretty damned fast. But where are all the REXs and serial PHEVs???
And as for recharging: this car has 3.5 kW on-board charger. During my 30 minute stop, I would have added 10 km of range which is pointless. Range in a fossil car is not critical. And I would have wasted 3-5 minutes plugging in and starting/stopping the charge.
Phevs are the worst type of Car. They have tiny batteries, a Petrol Engine, an Electric Motor and all the Technology that goes with it making it expensive to Buy, and Expensive to maintain, and costly to Fuel with Petrol. They're also inefficient as they dont do a great job carrying the extra weight with 2 Motors and a Battery. I hear phev owners regularly say I hardly ever use Petrol so why not just go full Electric if you only occasionally use Petrol. You can always rent a bev with a larger Battery when needed or an ICE if your in areas with poor charging or for those occasional longer trips where you havent the time for charging, but then everyone needs to go to the Bathroom, when you could be charging.
Nice control test. Why didn't you use the 'plugin' bit during the trip? You started with a full battery, but the 25 minutes spend in total on a rest room break and ChopChop, the car wasn't plugged in.
On my first stop, I had a 5 minute restroom break. That would add 1.5 km of range to the battery. But I would waste 3 minutes starting and stopping the charge. The 30 minute ChopChop stop would have added 10 km of range which is pointless.
@@bjornnyland Shiiii, so only 3kW charging! Had to dig for that info on the Kia site. They mentioned 9kWh li-po pack and charging in 3 hours. Yes, very pointless :). If the Kia could DC fast(ish) charge, it could be a little less foolish...but only a little.
Bjørn Nyland I’m referring to the effect of driving fast on fuel efficiency so it would have to go much slower to do it in one shot which would be slower anyways. Thanks for the videos. I’m getting an EV this year thanks to your demonstrations. Take care.
Estaría genial que habilitara los subtítulos en español y diera los datos en euros en vez de en Coronas (sería más informativo para toda Europa). Gran vídeo y gran trabajo.
It would be great if you enabled the subtitles in Spanish and gave the data in euros instead of in Coronas (it would be more informative for all of Europe). Great video and great job.
If you're not being an idiot, a 37 liter tank should give you on average, about 30 liter usable volume. On long distaces, with a march speed of 130kph, it drinks about 6l per 100km. 30/6=500km between stops. Fuel stop is max 5 minutes, 10 if you need to use restroom. (Who tf stops to eat anyway?? You bring the fkin food and eat on the road ffs). Real world range in a tesla at that marching speed: i'm guessing here, but 400km maybe? Less if you want to not harm the battery. Charge-up time 20 minutes to 75-80%, cost of charging: 150% oc equivalent fuel price. You ppl have been fooled 😉
Good Video - But the German Folks would argue completely different. As you are allowed to drive a lot faster here you will save lots of time. Problem is that people in Germany here think that they are center of the world and everything regarding a car is German, they do not understand that there is a speed limit in the rest of the world (excluding 3 to 5 states like North Korea)... They don't understand that German cars are not build for German people, they are build for Chinese people and Chinese speed limits.. 😎
In Germany, 1000 km challenge in Model 3 would be even faster than going through Sweden: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-R-2Yj-uVeB0.html
@@bjornnylandYeah that's right, but with ice car and no traffic (e.g. during night), ICE still beats EVs on the Autobahn. For me it does not matter because I anyway stop after 200-300km. But for people driving cross the country (like a friend of my who is a service engineer), he needs the flexibility to go 500km, charge 10 min and have another 500-900km. It is all about time. But unfortunately those are the arguments of people disliking emobility here in Germany. Conclusion: As you go faster in Germany, you need to charge/refuel more often, so if charging/refueling takes longer, your panelty increases significantly with an EV.
