Let's Talk: Analytical Content in Melee 

I think analytical content can absolutely do well, it’s just that it needs to be thoughtfully edited and engaging to watch. For example, one of the things Fiction said only gets views now is “Top Player uses low tier.” Now, it’s pretty obvious he’s talking about Donttestme. So if Fiction is to be believed, the most viewed video related to the topic should be Zain’s own video highlighting his stream, right? No, it’s Turndownforwalt’s analysis of Zain’s run and how he uses the character. What sets it apart is how Walt structures and paces his content. While subject matter is important, how it is presented matters just as much. Another example of great analytical Melee content would be Junebug, who utilizes great visuals and humor to bring his audience through his analysis. He’s had some pretty great success too, and while not sky high his average view count is still a good deal higher than his subcount. It might be a bit unfortunate to hear for some but to do well I genuinely think analytical content has to have more substance to it than just on an informational level. If it’s still worth it at that point, I can’t say.

I really enjoyed watching Mang0 coach Scar, and Zain coach Husband. I also liked that it happened live on twitch.

Personalities like that of Toph can make analytical not SEEM analytical by delivery alone. It's what draws me to his videos regardless of the subject. Same goes for guys like AsumSaus who can make amazing videos for more niche subjects like "ECB's".

My take on this is: analytical content is only going to succeed on RU-vid if it's geared toward low level players. There's a big difference between wanting to get better so that they can be competitive with most people on unranked, and wanting to get better so they can start winning local tourneys and taking names at big events. That first set of players is a big enough market to make videos commercially viable and is catered to just fine by SSBMTutorials-type content. That second set of players gets their analytical "content" from their coaches because they want/need something tailored to their individual main/shortcomings. Coaching already fills the void that Shep is frustrated that he can't fill with ultra-analytical content. Either he needs to make content that also appeals to low level players, or just be happy with the money he makes coaching. That's my take anyway. I totally agree with your comments on the quality of Kira's delivery on SSBMTutorials. I've watched a few Fiction videos, and obviously he's extremely intelligent about the game. But he has the Mew2King style of knowledge dump content in the form of stream vods, which isn't very accessible in my opinion. So I think Fiction's frustration is correct, most people don't want super high level analytical content. The people who want this just have coaches instead. But at the same time, Fiction does not do himself any favours based on his style of delivery. Which is fine, he obviously doesn't see a reason to really put a lot of time into it because it doesn't get views. But you can't be surprised when it doesn't do well if you don't try as hard as you can to make the content as polished as possible. His tweet comes across as "I have useful stuff to say and it's your fault for not liking it", but RU-vid's a game and unfortunately, you gotta play it in order to be seen. I had to seek out Fiction's content, I imagine the algorithm is not showing it to people.

Great video, I think analyzing content in pretty much any game/sport etc is a work of passion. In Melee we are very fortunate to have alot of other things that make us love the game. The players, the combos, the story lines, the dopamine of just seeing the game in a good player's hands. High level analysis needs to be presented in small comprehensible chunks which can be hard to do. Overall I think its important to recognize that RU-vid typically isn't a place to learn as much as it is a place to be entertained. I think you nailed it on the head where the craft of making RU-vid videos is also huge factor.

coming from leauge of legends its weird to me bc I loved analytical content about leauge and I like it about melee. Hax's in depth videos about things like asdi down were videos that got me into melee.

I love Hax's Melee tech videos and there isn't really much content that gets into the mess of the Melee engine than his stuff. It's not entertaining and leans hard on the knowledge/info/applications of it all to keep the viewer interested... And it works. The presentation or the organization of the content really can be everything, and it's what separates the diamonds in the rough.

I waited for your insight and clarification when fiction mentioned you. We massively appreciate it. My overall take is that I agree that analytical content not getting numbers is discouraging, but I can understand why it wouldn't be appealing to watch something that's over an hour and unedited and has lots of downtime (typically from watching a set during a stream) even if it's from the minds of the best players in the world with helpful explanations. Maybe working with an editor to only capture the most important analysis examples (for analyzing sets as an example) would result in more success

I did love your old videos, but I love your new videos. Maybe i just love PPMD hmmm.

Hi again, awesome video! I thrive for educational melee content but end up watching the same videos over and over again. I've watched and now learnt all the beginner content a while back and now only look for videos about general gameplay/tactics and also random character tech. Personally I love your "falco vs marth - educational" series and how when you play someone you analyse their flaws and then punish them. I would love to see a video where you talk about punishing common habits - e.g. your opponent rolling in when they're shielding on the edge, or a video on the most common whiff punishes like an opponent arial attacking when coming back on ledge. It could even be specific to different characters idk PS. That last point really hit home, top players should not have to create content as well just to keep their melee career afloat, this game is much more in depth than half of the most popular games out there right now with people dedicating their lives to becoming the best player in the world but are then barely appreciated for it :( It's nice to finally see the prize pools getting bigger though i guess

The Melee-Content i like the most, is usually short 3-8 min Guides/Tipps. Like SSBM-Tutorials used to do, with "How to Shield Pressure" and "How to Combo as Falco" etc. I think you could do a lot of these for specific Situations. I like these, because they give you an solution to a situation / somethin to start with, while learning the game. And its just a small amount of information, so i can apply it little by little or video by video to your gameplay. Melee has so many options, it feels less overwhelming that way. I also like 2h long analysis videos of complete matches, but i usually dont have the time to watch these and still need to figure out the key aspects of the analysis afterwards myself. (so i can actually use the information) People talk a lot about "forcing mixups" or say "then just play your post-x MixUp" and i never quite know what exactly these are. Having videos on a few specific examples would really help. TL;DR: Short Videos (3-8min) Tutorial Videos: for example talking about specific good options in specific, common situations, would make good content imo

Good points as usual PP. Like you pointed out, it’s not as simple as “analytical content doesn’t do well.” I think the thing that stands in the way of analytical content is foremost its accessibility (which includes its entertainment value). The job of the content creator to be successful is making the concepts conveyed understandable and interesting to the potential audience. I think if content creators were mindful of how to make their analysis compelling and accessible, people would gobble it up. Too much analysis ends up being really long, rambling, and obscure. There has to be a way to make it clear, concise, interesting to watch. I think that is the secret to how well SSBM Tutorials has done with the content. EDIT: The good news is that I think there are A LOT of creators that are really good at making really interesting accessible content out there in the community. MeleeStats, TurnDownForWalt, and the like. Maybe partnering with them, or at least getting some ideas from them about their presentation would make analytical content more viewable.

omg a PPMD video what a treat!

Something I don't think you touched on here, but what I think is a huge factor in the engagement with analytical content, is that as soon as you make it character specific, you immediately cut your audience down to a fraction of its potential. For example, I play peach, and like to tell myself I am just outside the top 10 in my region, so a fairly typical mid-level player. I watched Toph's "Amsa's theory of neutral" video, because I do have to play the neutral game, just like every other character. I would watch a video like "how to edgeguard marth as peach" because thats a situation I find myself in a lot, and I could learn something from that video. MAYBE i will watch "falco's options off the ledge", if I am working on the falco matchup in particular at that time, but i'm not going to watch "shiek tech chasing tips on spacies" because I just don't care to learn punish game specifics for a matchup I don't play. Similarly, a lot of set-review style analytical content just won't appeal to me, because most of the top-8 sets that get looked at don't have a peach in them, and I just don't care as much about the micro-spacing nuances of Fox-Marth beyond the spectacle, but at that point I will just watch the set myself. Personally, I liked your old analytical Netplay videos, because you would prioritize talking about exploiting habits, explaining why you were making certain reads, things that any character can do, and you just happened to be doing with marth or falco, and you didn't often talk in depth about the marth or falco specific things you were doing to beat your opponent, because I didn't have much to learn from that.

Speaking as someone who loves smash but is a total casual; I dont use netplay, watch melee as a viewer and have played 1000's of hours of it at university but admittedly have absolutely no desire to compete. These days only rly play ultimate online for lack of knowing people who want to play melee. I have been enjoying this game series for 20 plus years now and essentially watch melee as a sports fan. I LOVE the analytical content and I cant even wavedash properly. And i really dont think im alone here, it is objectively interesting and there is for sure an untapped viewer base for analytical melee content. something akin to regular sport analysis. With speed running channels like Summoning Salt and Karl Jobst out there doing so well, there is definite interest and a big market for in depth analytical content geared toward outside viewers. i know speed running and competetive melee are not the same but it does show that there is interest out there for content that talks about in game tech. If a speedrun history of Wii Sports Golf can get over 100 thousand views, then i imagine vids about things like a history of specific melee tech, the evolution of the metagame for different characters, how matchups have progressed thru time, character innovating players.. even like "such and such player is now performing very well, here is a description of some of the adjustments they have made" etc could do very very very well. When the metagame doc came out, I gotta say I was pretty dissapointed that it wasnt about the actual development of the competetive melee metagame over the last 20 years. with love from a uk melee viewer. i just wanna see people talk about melee the same way people on the tv talk about football (its not called soccer) edit: the wii sports golf vid has over 3 mil views. feels like a way more niche topic than melee.

My input is this: I like all kinds of analytical videos that you mentioned and I would be mad if top players didn't make them at all, but when it comes to melee content it is in the vast minority of stuff that I consume. That is because most of the time I'm not in that hardcore practice mode, and when I'm not in that mode a lot of the analytical content just isn't very engaging unless it is carried by personality and/or editing. But when I AM in that mode it is very nice to have, helps me get into the correct mindset.

Time for the analysis of the anaylsis The proving ground for the viability of the content

Even though plenty of channels on RU-vid, especially Smash channels, mine their Twitch highlights for content, it does take a lot of effort to make good content on the internet these days. Solid editing, thoughtful promotion, and audience consideration is all a part of it, from the title to the thumbnail to the video itself. You can't just be a top Smash talking into a mic with footage on the screen.

The analytical netplay series was some of my favorite ppmd content, very helpful to hear what high level players focus on mid-game.

We love you pp, thanks for your thoughts about this

I think the more high-level analytical content it naturally gets less popular simply because the target audience gets winnowed down. In terms of population, People who don't even play Melee > Casuals > People trying to improve in general > People trying to improve at a specific character > High-level players, etc

There is analytical content that does well, especially stuff like SSBM Tutorials videos, which I remember as a great resource. I feel like there are a number of ways to do it outside of character guides, like "how to get back on stage" or "one platform waveland application for every character". But, analyzing a tournament set is probably the least broadly appealing, because I feel like you have to be specifically interested in that set for some reason to want to click a video, especially when set analysis tends to be 1h+. I love a lot of RadarSSBM's content, for reference. edit: also love Hax's stuff, although that starts to get extremely technical and I imagine less people are into that, but for me it's fascinating and he clearly knows his shit.

Since I’ve started melee I consume almost all major melee content and can say that I personally think people feel like there are multiple resources to view more informative content where as more of the “click bait” style stuff allows for more “personal” connection to the creator which keeps clicks. I am all for different styles of content at anytime and don’t have a preference.

Great video

Id love more falco guides and analysis. Honestly my favorite melee content

I haven't kept up at all and only got back into melee recently after a couple years off but I used to love the like 2019ish Ginger analysis videos while I ate lunch. Genuinely felt like it improved my gamethink

ive always said analytical content is at most appealing and can retain when edited the right way and with a bit of a "youtube voice", SSBM Tutorials def helps out and is an example of that. obviously not everyone can get one who can break down a video as fluently.

"Not anyone's fault except Nintendo for [stopping anyone from giving us money]." Fixed that for you 🙃

The stories and people behind the games will always be more interesting than the games themselves, for the vast majority of situations. Just look at the Melee Doc. This even extends into sports -- the documentary about the dallas cowboys' preseason is more accessible to more people than a random game they played on Sunday.

turndownforwalt's frame data videos are the most granular analytical videos out there. They're great. Walt didn't have a platform because he's a commentator or top player. He got popular on the merit of his videos.. which is analytical content. Analytical content can work. It depends entirely on the presentation.

I think delivery is indeed the major factor. If all your effort is put into that I think the video will do well

PPMD i love your content

melee analytic makes an analytic video about melee video analytics we just want modern how-to tech execute and practice vidz and things like the difference in tempo or timing for groupings like x-squat jump groups, floaties, etc. I be digging for old educational vids constantly, ssbm toots is a gold mine, but so is STC stomping content.

I respect your perspective, not certain I disagree with anything. I personally enjoy Analytical content, but mostly along the lines of a major set analysis immediately after watching it performed, like the Mango Zain Summit sets recently, or in terms of top tiers/players and their playstyles/matchups. As an amateur Rivals player who is interested in getting in Melee one day, but who has never so much as touched a GameCube controller, my interests are geared specifically towards the most recent thing, or whatever might give me a chance one day later on in life at the game. Or, alternatively, whatever can help me at Rivals moreso in the short term. Will also say, I doubt there are many Mango fans who have never played the game, but there are likely more than a few Ludwig fans who haven't, and I imagine figures like Toph are closer to the middle. Hungrybox fans have often played Ultimate, and not Melee, with him and the Emplemon video being a large part of what actually introduced me personally to the game. Two summits later, and I'm personally invested in most of the top players, and much more interested in playing the game on the whole, as a Rivals player who has never touched a smash game. There is also a huge difference between watching you analyze Zain vs Mango at Summit 12, and watching Zain or Mango do so, which is also a factor. If there is a personal drama aspect to the set analysis, like 'where did I go wrong' or 'why he crumbled under pressure', or if it's really anything to do with someone like Amsa and their insanely interesting character/playstyle, I suspect it will also go over well with a lot of players and spectators like myself. That is aside from MeleeStats and TurnDownForWalt, as most of their content can be argued as analytical, just with a narrative usually attached to it and a much higher production value than most set analysis find necessary. The Michael Vs Bananas set analysis isn't really oriented towards players of any skill level, within or outside the community, but was still an insanely enjoyable watch and educational in it's own right. All that is to say, playing, providing good analysis, and providing good commentary are all different skills than creating accessible content, and the 'drama' aspect of top player relationships and the character arcs they go through over their career are also a factor. There are also a large number of Ultimate/Rivals/PM players who kinda-sorta know what is going on, and are not quite 'beginners' or casuals exactly while still having never played the game. I can use the Amsa approach to Neutral, not really details of the Puff-Fox matchup, things of that nature. As the scene grows, finally, there seems to be more players on the top level, so I suspect that demand for high-level analysis will also increase over the next few years.

I'm a mediocre Fox player, but I feel like some top player analyses such minuscule details in combos that it'll never apply to me. (i.e. saying that someone should have done a reverse hit fair instead of a reverse hit nair in a combo, that kind of super lil thingy) I prefer players that analyses neutral or approaches, feels a bit lighter to me and easier to implement in my games.

I 1000% think analytical content could work, specifically analysis of top player strategies and sets. Mango's TBH9 analysis has 170k views and is like the 10th most viewed video on his channel and that is on an unedited hours plus vod. What's interesting about that video is that is analyzing the thought process of top players in a high stake scenario. It does get a boost because it's Mango and he was part of the set, but someone like Fiction could do the same level analysis on other players. Add in graphics, a script and editing and I think you have something really interesting

Just waiting for that dash dancing guide.....

Think it was Bruce Lee that said take what is useful, discard what is not, and add your own uniqueness. Love your content man and your point of views!

I agree a lot in the fact that creators should appeal to mainly a general melee audience or to lower level players, i think that can help a lot of people, videos about how to practice or how to analyze matches are honestly very good ideas (despite the fact that they've been talked about a lot) because those are things that a lot of people don't know how to do, and other topics that are more oriented towards general concepts could do really well and help a lot of players when it comes to improvement, rather than having 40 minute videos on what to do on a specific situation, that's important and certainly interesting for a lot of people (myself included) but it's not going to help everyone and it's not going to be very appealing, because you can learn about it but won't really implement it into your game when you can work on your shield grabbing habit, or if you don't want to get good you can just watch mang0 eating hot wings.

I have a playlist with a bunch of videos on Ike and how to improve with him. Izaw Smash being the primary source.

I feel like not enough people mention hax’s content. When it’s purely talking about the game, it’s really good. It’s very well put together, well scripted, concise and to the point. It also get pretty good views (iirc he has a few videos that are around 100k views or so I might not be getting that exactly right but the point still stands)

hes alive :D

A big obstacle to analytical content is the nature of the platform and the internet as a whole. It is way easier to grow your channel with short click bait content because it is easier for a viewer to click on that video. I love sitting down and listening/watching analysis videos from my favorite sets and favorite players. However, in my day to day situation, it feels hard to justify watching a 30-50 minute video when it is much easier to watch a short video and keep on moving with my day. It's the same reason I don't frequently watch DnD sessions online even though I enjoy them. While DnD lends itself well to a podcast form, melee is extremely involved and digesting melee analysis feels like a serious time commitment when you only have 20-30 minutes for your lunch break

i really miss cactus and zhu "smash practice"

Soo.....when are you playing competitively again? We miss you.

Im sure fictions content is nice ... for fox mains who got the time to watch the 1 hour long, unedited vod of his stream.

The separation you made between educational content and analytical content speaks volumes. I think it takes someone very special to be able to analyze a set, friendly match, coaching match, etc and still be entertaining. On the other hand, educational content (SSBMTutorials for example) does not always need to be entertaining for it to work. You click on those videos for the hope that maybe this will help you improve an aspect of your game, a match up, tech skill, mindset, etc. Analysis vids involve picking out educational pieces from specific scenarios in gameplay. Educational vids just cut to the chase. Finite and to the point.

If the "high level content" is presented in a way that allows anyone to appreciate it, then it's great. If it's specifically made for practical use then nah

analytical content can definitely do well, it just has to be done well. Hax for example, makes great analytical content and gets more views than most other melee channels.

personally i do weed is one of the funniest chat messages ive ever read

I'd watch more analysis if it wasn't literally just watching a match and talking about it. I'm not interested in single matches. I'm interested in those times when key aspects of the game manifest. Something I'd watch is an analysis of a multitude of close quarters interactions because I have trouble with those. I really don't want to see a slowmo replay of an entire match.

I think the crux of it is that people don't just want analytical content, they want entertaining analytical content marketed as something that sounds more exciting/"clickable". At the end of the day the success of the actual content you're making hinges less on the subject and more about the entertainment value and marketability. Maybe somebody like Fiction loathes that, but that's reality, and doesn't mean that the content you want to make has no viability. It just means you have to compromise on it if you want to expand your audience.

I love analytical content--it's just hard to find. No offense to GG Melee whose videos are relentlessly entertaining, but there's not much substantive material there to help me get better at Melee, which is primarily why I end up watching tourney vods. In general, I'd love to see more analytical stuff from PP--I was actually one of the people that pretty religiously consumed his analysis videos of playing Slippi unranked.

anyone else notice smash twitter took a huge dive in the last month or so? seems like everyone is on edge ever since logan released his world religion tierlist lmfao

I dont care about it being analytical, I just like watching you play the game

This was analytical content about other analytical content

i think analytical content can succeed if formatted to be short, 1-5 minutes a piece. and it should discuss somewhat macro or broad concepts, maybe perhaps why a neutral opening happened, or discussing a players gameplans during a game how how its being applied. the only issue with getting to certain scenarios is that many creators may begin to bloat it by talking about the pixel by pixel or frame by frame of the scenario, while that stuff is nice, i do not think its inherently educational. sure you may learn a bit of frame data but most of the playerbase isn't going to be able to take that info and apply it to their game, it would be much better for most players if, for example, a gameplan idea or a neutral concept was discussed with video examples. another point id like to bring up is the fact that you don't even have to use analysis to teach things, id say most of the playerbase gained tons of applicable knowledge by watching things like zain coaching husband or mango coaching scar. the concepts and ideas discussed within those videos are amazing and can be applicable for atleast like 99% of people who play. on top of that, i really honestly believe that length is one of the main issues when it comes to the success of analytical content, sure there may be a lot of people who watch thru full analysis videos, but most of the time it just turns into background noise for most after the first bit of the video (which is why i suggest it be roughly

i like how IBDW is too long, but PPMD is just right

That Blasted Salami did a great video on applications of wavedashing and wavelanding that I think should be used as an example of what to produce as content Edit: here's the video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5SL3lOKcAqo.html

People want to destroy their opponents with low tier, and they also wish they could eat hot sauce. Makes sense to me.

Ultimately its on you, (the viewer) to signal boost analytical content if that's what you want to see.

"Analyzing Fiction's Tweet"

I think a big thing that wasn't touched on here is saturation of the simple stuff. Things that have simple broad appeal like "what main are you" or "wavedash tutorial" or "how to shffl" have already been done. So even if you take away from this video that broad appeal content is better, it doesn't make it the best thing, because lots of broad appeal topics are already saturating search results.

Who

I dont want to watch fiction do anything.

Analytical content is only as relevant as the accuracy. If you're pausing more than once per stock and explaining for minutes on end how interactions came to be, you're actually messing up. If you're watching a match from beginning to END, then summing up what went on that whole match with examples from the match, no matter how long the summary takes you're doing it right. It's inaccurate to only take analysis only one clip at a time, sort of like how listening to a song only bit by bit is ineffective. The macro play is just as important if not moreso than the micro exchanges. The only exception there might be to that is big brain Fox dittos lol.

test

it just has to be done right. these creators need to stop bein foolish and get creative

Melee isn’t worth it.

first lol