Let's Test the "Illusion of Choice" of Pathfinder 2e in a Combat | Tactics & Strategies Part 2!

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PART 2 (with the deleted battle): • Tactics in a BRUTAL Bo...
Is there an "illusion of choice" in Pathfinder 2e? Let's use a demonstration combat to see what happens when we repeat MMO-style "rotations." Let's look at tactics and strategies in a LEVEL 5 combat! (This video originally had a 2nd battle! That will be released in a separate video shortly.)
Also see PART 1 "This Ain't D&D: Tactics + Strategies for Pathfinder 2e, Part 1 (Basic/Skill Actions)":
• This Ain't D&D: Tactic...
This is the "Don't Attack 3 Times!" video I refer to:
• 3 Strikes and You're O...
CORRECTION: The fighter's Bravery class feature prevents him from being Frightened at 1:08:53. At 1:15:46, his Trip required a free hand, which was easy enough to get by Releasing his sword or shield. (Releasing is a free action)
0:00 - Introduction
2:51 - Pathfinder 2e = Many Feats!
4:16 - Our Character Builds
14:29 - COMBAT!
15:24 - Swashbuckler's Tumble Behind, Impaling Finisher
19:55 - Fighter's Double Slice
22:42 - Ranger's Hunted Shot
33:49 - Druid's Wild Shape
45:16 - TAKE TWO
45:42 - Planning + Party Roles
46:45 - Not getting isolated
48:43 - Fighter's choices
49:20 - Aid
51:56 - Ranger's choices, Quick Draw
54:22 - Attack of Opportunity?
55:24 - Druid: Recall Knowledge, and Spells
59:50 - Escape helped by Aid
1:03:07 - NOT using a Finisher?
1:07:44 - Fighter's Reactive Shield
1:13:20 - Delaying a Finisher, + Confident Finisher
1:15:46 - Using Assurance to Trip
1:17:24 - NOT using Hunt Prey!
1:19:22 - Closing Statement
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LEARN PATHFINDER 2E! From The Rules Lawyer:
BEGINNER BOX Demonstration + Review: • REVIEW + DEMONSTRATION...
It's Easy to Learn! A First Combat: • Pathfinder 2nd Edition...
Character Creation - A Breakdown: • Understand Character C...
Fun Martials & Clerics, & Interesting Monsters! A Second Combat: • Martials and clerics a...
Tactics & Strategies to Beat Pathfinder 2e's Tough Fights: • This Ain't D&D: Tactic...
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20 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 361

@calvinthegreat69 Год назад

Made it to level 20 wizard in a campaign. It was at level 5 when I got access to 3rd level spells that I really felt everything opened up. The first couple levels were tough because it is both very limited in spells know and in slots per day, but once I got more there was so much thought into what to prepare each day and then how to deploy those spells. It really felt like I had so many options that every combat was so different. Plus cantrips being heightened to your current spells level made them always relevant so there was always an option to stop using spell slots in any given combat and just save them for later fights. I also took the bon mot skill feat and linguistics general feat multiple times so I could insult our enemies for debuffs in like 15 different languages. I had more options than I knew what to do with. Next campaign went to level 10 and played a thaumaturge. Less options than wizard, but having multiple implements (including mirror for silly 15 ft teleports) still left me with many options. And there was still so many options with the 3rd actions because the turn after doing the exploit vulnerability left that third action very open (I still usually used 2 actions to attack when I had the chance). Currently playing a summoner on a campaign that should go to level 2. So now I basically have 2 characters with 4 actions. So while I have less options than either a standard spellcaster or martial, my summoner has some spell flexibility and my eidolon has some martial flexibility and I am a necromancer so I have many animate dead options to add on top of that. And sure in each campaign the group fell into standard tactics or a braindead rotations when we didn't want to think, but we were never forced into that my our feats and optimal play shifted based on the specifics of each encounter. Honestly felt way more forced into an optimal cycle the last time I played D&D 5th (also went to level 20) than I ever have in pathfinder (1e or 2e).

@maxzzzzz3004 2 года назад

I never played a TTRPG before. At the time I was preparing to run my first Game as a GM and I had to pick a game system. Coming from a Software Developer Background the clarity and consistent design of P2E appealed to me. But I was not sure yet. At that point Codys Video made me think very hard which system to pick. I did not want to force my players into a mechanically slow game (because of the many rules) if it was not worth it. In the end I still decided for P2E because it was rules heavy. Every time I was starting to think about "how would I rule this" and came up with a solution I found later that P2E had my back. It had a rule that was quite similar to what I would have done. So the many rules turned out a time saver because somebody else did the heavy thinking for me. The beginner box also had a very nice cut down subset of the game so I could understand the core mechanics better. Once I understood the structure of the Core Rule book it was very easy to find everything and the game looked a lot less intimidating/complex. I played the first session a couple of days ago with a group that played DnD for 2 years. The transition was seamless for them showing to me how simple the mechanics on player side actually are. And they already asked for session 2. Yey. I also enjoyed the GM role a lot. I felt very well prepared. So seeing your video now makes me glad that the one issue that might arise at later levels is actually not there. Instead you present me a game that is even more thought through then I hoped for. Thank you very much.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

That's great!! The usual advice is "PF2 caters to players and 5e caters to GMs" which I wholly disagree with as automatic advice! I'm glad this video helped. I think ultimately if a GM can grok PF2e's rules that it becomes easier to run (I did a video on the Top 10 reasons "why GMing PF2e is easier"). And for players its greater complexity can be handled if the GM has grokked it and can present it to others. +1 for the Beginner Box, which I plan to feature in an upcoming video.

@maxzzzzz3004 2 года назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I watched most of your videos in preparation. There are not many sources that go into such detail for P2E. Thanks for the work : ). I can imagine the production and research takes a while. Also starting as a GM today so easy because of you guys : ) There is so much content about Dnd that translates quite well to P2E. I have a GM on my table that did run P1E. He helps me out a lot with the rules, when I am in doubt. The players only need to know that they have 3 Actions, what a DC is and that there is a M.A.P.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

@@maxzzzzz3004 Glad they were helpful! And sounds like you're set!

@AlastorsNight Год назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I have never heard that advice before but I would also disagree with that statement. As someone who has almost exclusively run 5e for almost 5 years now (for a few reasons, none of them being disinterest in other systems though as I really like CoC and Starfinder) I think 5e HEAVILY caters to players since they get all the cool options meanwhile, DM's have to buy either other 1st party books (like Xanthar's and Tasha's) or 3rd party content and scour youtube videos or the internet as a whole in order to make sense of the super simplistic rules. That is the main reason I have told my players that I am done running 5e for the time being (maybe for good) as I don't like how I had to bust my butt to make something that the players wouldn't just steam roll or trying to figure out the some of their super vague rules that was clarified in another one of their book or a twitter post by one of the designers. I have always appreciated how Paizo gives you the tools in you need to play and run the game in the main book (even if it is a bit wordy at times) but you can CHOOSE augment the rules with with additional content down the line instead where as WotC has a bad habits of giving you a minimal frame work and then expecting you to pay for the content that they didn't think of before hand.

@PyroMancer2k 2 года назад

It's nice to see someone actually break this down to dispel the myth set forward by a curtain other RU-vidr. In their example they had a small room with 2 PCs vs 2 NPCs and an under equipped ranger. Then only played out a SINGLE turn while getting several PF2E rules wrong. As you point out in the video a lot of people look at the stats in a vacuum because in curtain other TT RPGs that's all you really need. But in PF 2E it's all about the party and working as a team. As you show in the video a group focused purely on optimal rotations and max DPS is gonna do worst than a group that actually works as a team. Which is why I think some people get the impression that they "have to min/max" with an optimal build/rotation. It's like an MMO group that doesn't know how to Crowd Control and are all a bunch of DPS players complaining they need more DPS so they can beat the raid before their limited HP runs out.

@DiviNazuphus 2 года назад

For an easy comparison for everyone, Its like a Pokemon player who only uses damage moves, and then plays pokemon showdown and gets wrecked by someone using status moves.

@DiviNazuphus 2 года назад

Its almost like doing the highest damage ability every turn isn't actually the most effective method of combat? hmmmm....

@TheRulesLawyerLivePlay 2 года назад

@@DiviNazuphus To be fair (while still disagreeing with that point of view), offense-offense-all-the-time has been the M.O. for most of D&D's history. (Maybe not 4e? I'm not that familiar with it yet) Which is why Cody's "defense" of his players that they're in their 40s or older and experienced in D&D is actually an admission of what might be the problem.

@nickm9102 Год назад

I have to go with Cody on this one. Been playing a Pathfinder 2e campaign every week for the last 8 weeks now and every combat is essentially the same. Initiative changes and with the exception of the cleric there are only two reasons that the action pattern changes. Movement to reach a target, and the dice roll prevents the pattern. The cleric varies only slightly more. As a Cleric (lvl 5) I have 3 options Movement Doctor's visitation/Risky surgery Raise shield Doctor's visitation/Risky surgery 2 action heal spell Raise shield 2 action heal spell Then there is the Oh S**t button. 3 action heal. Yes mechanically I have quite a few other options, but why would I use them when one of these scenarios will Always result in a better outcome and more often than not failing to follow through with Mentioned list above results in greater problems in the end.

@andrewkent922 Год назад

I think maybe part of the issue here is that we have people who don't know the ins and outs of PF1e and PF2e and those who do (like The Rules Lawyer and other people on this thread). I'm definitely in the former camp, and really have a hard time figuring out what combinations would work (especially since the rule set is extremely expansive). I also find that I can't play "fun" things. I've tried things like a Conjuration wizard before, which took forever to get going. Yes, there are spells like grease, etc. But I'm playing this conjuration wizard to summon things and bend space/time. Grease also negatively affects the party, and Selective Metamagic (at least in PF1E) requires you to have 10 ranks in spellcraft. Sheesh. I also played a cleric for Rise of the Runelords. This was a hit or miss if I was going to be useful. Damaging spells usually had a paltry amount of damage, and then the helpful debuff spells required a save which totally sucks when the bad guys save 9 times out of 10. And I don't think that DND is any different. Though to go by the argument that there isn't an illusion of choice, for either, is just plain false in my opinion. There *are* certain metas that are *optimal* for each class, and so you do get into this pattern of making specific choices so that you don't feel useless in game. Though this is a little off tangent from the original topic, I admit. I don't think that there is an illusion of choice in the regard of doing the same thing each turn and each combat. I do believe that there is an illusion of choice when it comes to creating characters. Certain things like straight enchantment or illusionist wizards just don't seem to be what PF1E was built for. Side Note: Where are all the ice spells? There's a ton of fire spells, but barely any other type of elemental spells.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

As many of you might've guessed, I've been planning this one for a while... specifically to encourage people to try Pathfinder 2e who otherwise might spurn it because they've heard that its tactical richness is illusory. What do you think?

@GMRayJ36 2 года назад

I think it could encourage, yes, because you show and explain rather well. 👍

@Jason-ji8ql 2 года назад

The reason I feel PF2E gets that bad rap, is because people are too ingrained in the 5E method of gameplay. I had a player recently ask me during a 5E game if he could do all these different things during combat to change the odds of hitting/getting hit etc. I told him aside from taking the dodge or help action, theres very little else to do. Then I explained that Pathfinder inherently would not only allow him to do it, but makes it better for him do so

@cheezeofages 2 года назад

Do you mean people that might have heard that from a certain someone that thinks the optimal turn is one of the most commonly cited newb mistakes and whose sample battle that he claimed had perfect math included several rules mistakes and elements of poor system mastery that when corrected make his own calculations prove him wrong? And whose sample turn that he used to mock Athletic moves was both obviously self-sabotaging and a lie because he wholesale made up a fake rule and passed it as fact? And whose whole sample battle was a failure from a scientific standpoint because you can't prove a lack of options in the system by making a one trick pony on purpose (and saying as much in the video) then showing off that it has only one trick. Or just generally people that might have misheard? (If you can't tell I am really annoyed by a certain infamous pair of videos to the point I have made a whole series picking them apart that I haven't even concluded yet)

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

@@cheezeofages Yes!

@flameloude 2 года назад

God i wss waiting for a response to this for soo long

@TheUnluckyEverydude 2 года назад

Wild Shape druid reminded me: my leshy druid, Gordy, had a tactical formation he calls "We Bare Bears". Basically he summons a bear, turns into a bear, and then climbs stop his animal companion bear while convincing me the summoned bear to climb him. Now, whenever Gordy the bear or the summoned bear attacks, Willard (his companion) auto attacks doing 2d8. It's essentially a blender made of bears that can move 10 to 20 feet a turn. I love playing the enemies that panic and avoid that portion of the battlefield like the plague. Made some bandits straight up give in once lmao

@Tysto 2 года назад

That's among the dumbest ideas I’ve ever heard.

@krispydunts1665 Год назад

That's definitely the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Its wonderful, I'll take 3.

@simonO712 Месяц назад

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a good while, in the best way possible! xD

@TrueXyrael Год назад

Speaking as a barbarian, the druid shapeshifting while the swashbuckler is going down is enraging.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG Год назад

It is! I assume you made it to Take 2?

@TrueXyrael Год назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Yeah. Illusion of choice breaks down in difficult encounters, and also in any encounter that has consequences - maybe the enemy's are fighting you but you don't want to kill them for some reason. Maybe the wights are trying to kill a low HP NPC the party needs to protect. I also think less experienced players generally have more fun in RP games because its still about RP to them.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG Год назад

@@TrueXyrael Speaking of enraging, you might want to see what this video was responding to. (2 videos, actually.) If you're on blood pressure meds be sure to take em! =D

@luiswi 2 года назад

I like the detailed time stamps on the duration bar. It especially helps with such a long video.

@tinear4 2 года назад

“Versatility is its own form of optimization.” THIS. ^^^

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

I love this point. And I first heard it from someone else! I think it was Black Dragon Gaming? Not sure...

@yari4046 2 года назад

I think instead of their being "optimal rotations" most players just get overwhelmed with the different things that are possible and so when they find 1 thing that "works good enough" they just keep doing that instead of experimenting with something that could go wrong. I think one way of making your players experiment more is by giving them more difficult encounters where their normal strategy won't work, obviously don't kill your players but give them hints and ideas on what they could do differently

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Sure, tho those same players might already be frustrated by the difficulty, and just make the wall they're running into "harder." The suggestion that usually comes up in discussions online is for the GM to demonstrate tactics (like the wights do here) that are available to all PCs.

@SheppiTSRodriguez 2 года назад

Its amazing the difference that good tactics make in this game. Great example, with the 2 mindsets on the same fight.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Yes! There's a prevailing idea that thinking ends once you've created your "build." Glad this video was clear

@DandDgamer Год назад

Interesting analysis. I personally think the swashbuckler and druid just trolled the first time so its not really illusion of choice coming into play... but the fighter's options were really cool and the range limitations on the Ranger were interesting to think about as well. I'm glad for the extra stuff you mentioned on the other two as well. Definitely want to try PF sometime

@yari4046 2 года назад

I really enjoyed this demonstration, you can see how much value different debuffs, flanking and so on have because you can for example get critical hits reliably by just increasing your chance to hit

@roaringlaughter3812 Год назад

Thinking about it, that assurance thing is super good once you know what their reflexes are Which makes recall knowledge really handy. I liked the battle, there was a lot more considerations to be made then for example 5e

@AlexPBenton 2 года назад

I’m currently in a 2e game which has recently reached level 5. I play a Ganzi Orc Cosmos Oracle with the Magic Warrior Dedication. I chose my current animal form to be a snake, since it gives me both a climb speed and a swim speed, and it has proved to be very useful. It also ended up making my athletics bonus become exceptionally high, which has incentivized me to perform a lot more maneuvers like grappling and tripping, especially in combination with feint since I specialized in deception. This has been the most engaging character for me to play in any system, and every encounter has felt fresh and interesting.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Yay! That sounds like a really fun character.

@jacobbeetsdehkordi7948 Год назад

watching you do simulated combat reminds me of old television where an artist draws a sketch, or paints on a canvas. you're like bob ross for tabletop games and i love it.

@Zhunix Год назад

It's awesome to see such in-depth content showing tactics, feats, and option in combat- great work! Something I try to remember as a DM is that if my players feel like they're trapped into doing the same things session after session, then half of that is on me to design more diverse encounters. For instance, making the objectives of combat not always just "kill the monsters", but introduce other facets based on the party's skills and feats to keep them on their toes. For instance, making them have to stop a ritual where killing all the bad guys doesn't stop the progress, and building in ways to stop it based on the party's skills and feats.

@rasleyforde2363 2 года назад

I wasn't sure in the beginning, but the druid player revealed it all lol

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Revealed what? =P It's a slow build, isn't it? =)

@kylone1 2 года назад

Yup, we were watching the fight and wincing at how it was going. ... You got me an my wife. Nice contrast!

@Athorment 11 месяцев назад

When the swashbuckler just went in and put herself in the way of like 4 attacks i was like... "HUH!?" When she escaped only to get back in and attack i was like "HUHHHHH!?!?!?" Good thing it was a lesson about being reckless 😂🤣😅

@amiablereaper 10 месяцев назад

Swashbuckler behavior tbh

@peterstedman6140 10 месяцев назад

I love being a reach fighter and provoking those sweet AOOs without having to get myself surrounded like that

@KaminoZan Год назад

For the longest time, I avoided watching these simulated combat videos... admittedly, because you're a soft-spoken person. (That's not a bad thing, by the by.) ANYWAY! Now that I have sat down and watched how combat can potentially play out during a session, I'm more confident than ever in choosing to turn away from WotC and learning P2e. Now I'm off to watch your Magus video to get ideas on how to adapt the combat there, for an unarmed Shadow Magus character I want to try out in my first P2e game!

@cmeast 2 года назад

This is a great idea! I'd love to see other combat comparisons too, such as a caster using support and control spells instead of damage spells, or an alchemist buffing allies with poisoned weapons and mutagens instead of throwing bombs. Or perhaps the benefits of a party successfully using recall knowledge at the start of a fight to then take advantage of a weakness or avoid an immunity.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Thanks. I want to explore the options people tend to dismiss in PF2e. PF2e seemed to have as a design goal making all build routes viable. I might explore some of your ideas in my Class Shopping Guides, or maybe their own topical video. (Shorter than this one, hopefully!) I for one want to see if talismans are "worth it" myself (the jury's out on that one)

@cmeast 2 года назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Yeah I have my doubts on talismans, but I like the idea and it would be good to see them in action. I think snares, poisons and some of the weirder ancestry weapons would be fun too. Also wild shape would be an interesting video. PF2e has so many topics to cover, and your approach - with these trial combats - are a great way to demonstrate them.

@GMRayJ36 2 года назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG This!! And cmeast's ideas would also be great too.... cool! 👍

@PyroMancer2k 2 года назад

The alchemist poisoning weapons I've seen has had a bit of a debate. Specifically with the perpetual crafting which say they don't last past the players next turn. Yet some have tried to arguing that applying the poison to a weapon counts as it being "used" and thus doesn't expire on your next turn. Thus you can coat whole quivers of arrows every day at the start of the day. As for alchemist he is a support class. Trying to go DPS with his throwing weapons I think is a loosing prospect. He is behind on the proficiency curve and gets further behind as he has the worst of any martial characters as he never becomes a Master Proficiency in any weapons. And DPS is all about stacking bonuses to get that +10 roll for crits. The Alchemist though can add Debilitating effects and with perpetual crafting he can have an unlimited number of them. So he basically has cantips with mild damage but always to status effects when hitting where as most other cantrips only do status effect on a crit. So having an Alchemist throwing down status effects all over the field can be great. The buffing caster reminds me of this Cleric/Bard which was all about support. They had Bless on nearly every fight for that +1 Status bonus to attack rolls and with Bard's Dirge of Doom they could frightening enemies in an area. It effectively gave the whole party an a +2 on all attacks. The build was the Protection Domain so also had Focus spell that gave resist all to party as well for 1 minute. There were other spells he swapped in/out as needed but that core was really strong.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

@@PyroMancer2k Generally agree. Remember tho that a poisoner is pretty viable by preparing poisons in advance for the day: a 7th-level alchemist can commit half their batches and have 15+ uses of poison for the day.

@TedRobbins-ik7we Год назад

I am new to Pathfinder and love this deep dive into the perspectives and mindset of the game. I am enjoying the deep descriptions and counter arguments to other options showing how much agency a player / character has in the 3-action economy. This sets up well how a player can participate while also working with their team. Love it! Thank you

@ttrpgplayer7939 2 года назад

I just started watching your videos. This video is interesting. I am really biased towards PF2 and love all the little combat decisions that can be made in combat. On the other hand I understand the trap a new GM and new players would fall into with repeated rotations. I feel PF2 give the most options for every turn compared to every other game I have played at least. Ranger is also probably the easiest class to fall into this trap too. Once a player and GM do enough research or gain experience it should be very easy to have a character with multiple options per turn. For example gaining an unarmed attack through an ancestry of dedication can allow a player to weave in between melee and ranged combat with ease. By far the worse part about the Taking 20 video was how much data was skewed. Also the fact that he states a Druids "best" option if transform and attack every turn is just absurd... I love how you showed being patient with the swashbuckler and not just charging in can lead to such a better outcome if everyone cooperates. In my experience martials tend to move + attack as much as possible. Since movement has such a high cost it is fun using it to your advantage. Just as an example skirmish strike makes enemies waste an action just to get to you. What I have learned is it 100% just come to preference though. There are a lot of people who play TTRPG and don't want all these high tactical decision. Quite a few people just want to do their own thing every round and 5e does this perfectly. Every single turn a player in 5e gets to attack/cast a spell + move + bonus action. Pretty much the main strategy in 5e is trying to conserve resources as much as possible.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

For most people, a helpful GM or player experienced with PF2 can come up with a "viable 3rd action" for a player who is playing only casually. And going from 1 routine to having a routine with an option of doing something that actually is likely to succeed (vs. attacking at -10) I think is not too much to ask of folks. (Of course, for some it IS too much to expect of them! Oh well. But thankfully PF2 accommodates beer + pretzels casual play by simply tuning the difficulty tune using its (working) encounter building system.) Viable "3rd actions" are Demoralize, Bon Mot, Athletics skill actions (specifically if you have Assurance-Athletics), and Battle Medicine. And PF2's decision to make movement use the same currency as other actions favors tactical play. Positioning and distance matter in PF2 - many spells are limited to 30 feet, and of course flanking is a thing in the base rules. Taking20's example to show 5e has more tactical depth relied on him including variant Variant Human, variant Flanking, and a small room.

@ODDnanref Год назад

Decision paralysis is a thing. However, what people fail to consider is that it affects everything to high levels of importance in decision making. Take the experiment made when doctors were asked "Have a patient go through hip surgery or try this one drug you forgot to?" Doctors picked try the drug. However, once the decision tree was "Have the patient go through hit surgery or try one of two drugs you forgot to try. And then which drug will be tried first?" Doctors decided to go through hip surgery. Yeah, that example is extreme mainly due to the high importance of the decision. Let's assume it is easier with games, since the importance is not life altering. Well, now we are not dealing with 2 choices into 2 choices. We are dealing with 5-10 choices every combat, with no experience for new player to make their own default move set. Then you have to remember the other rules do you have extra damage with this weapon? Do you need to change weapon? So on and on. No idea if you need conserve resources either. You also have to prepare your spells per level. You want to cast Cure wounds, what level, how many times? At level 1 you al ready have 7 possibly combinations for preparing one spell. With no experience to narrow it down it just that multiplied by the number of spells you know. Unless you are centering your character in using one specific spell, this quickly leads to decision paralysis and most likely mental exhaustion. Some people want to play a game, not think about solutions using optimizing theory to mathematically determine the choice. They work doing that, they don't want it to be their hobby. Saying it is too much to ask to consider possible decisions is not untrue. Because they already burned out that part of their brain during work. The reason they are playing is to rest that part of their brain not set it into working mode again. But yeah, aside from the initial pains of getting used to the system it seems like a fun system, once you get to automate the things you keep track off. To be honest, 5e is good for introducing players and then if they get into the crunching part, Pathfinder is the superior option on several other fronts. If not, there is other systems.

@cheezeofages 2 года назад

A small overlooked part of this math demonstration counter to a certain player's claims of ranged DPS is that the 'certain player' made a big hullabaloo about the damage difference between the first ranged attack and the first melee attack in a certain video. But when you correct his erroneous statement that the melee character cannot use his edge for melee since he picked "the ranged option" (What 'ranged option'? Edge doesn't restrict weapon type!) and his choice to pick a shortsword instead of Rapier you can clearly see the damage difference is not his quoted 60%. It's 1 point of average damage. Just one. Even if you had weirdly minimum STR for some reason the average damage difference would be nowhere even in the ballpark of 60%. Especially if you aren't using the longbow. With the correct weapon for the range (and does anyone really use longbows in 2e?) AND the weird minimum STR the damage difference is still only 1 point. 60% is from not knowing the class abilities and opting to start with a shortsword instead of a rapier even though shortswords are so easy to pick up off early level enemies you practically trip over them. So as I said in my other comment, the math the 'certain player' put forth actually proves him wrong when the actual, practical data is put in. And as an aside, why would one opt to not go rapier and instead go shortsword to have another damage type... and then build weirdly minimum STR so you can't even use it if he needs to? Not that piercing resist is common enough matter that much. Just go rapier, get a magic one eventually, then pick up any random shortsword of the hundreds lying around and then get a gauntlet. Have a usuable STR. BOOM. Damage type diversity. And with a composite bow more bow damage.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Agreed, though I'll say explicitly what you're hinting at, which was that the scenario seemed conveniently and in every way skewed to get a dramatic % loss. When I first saw the video and saw that the ranger had to Stride twice to get in a flanking position (a loss of 2 possible attacks the way PF2e works, while not the case in 5e), it was pretty clear that the scenario was deliberately "cooked up."

@ZombieApocalypse09 Год назад

This is a great video and very educational just from a learning PF2E standpoint. I just started DM'ing my first PF2E campaign. I have two active 5E campaigns as well. And the complaint I always get especially from martials in 5e is that they have no options. And truthfully, I have no good answer for them. I try to encourage them to improvise with the environment. But the rigid action system means there's not a lot of flexibility there and doing anything except taking attacks can be a huge risk as it might result in a completely wasted turn. Don't get me wrong, 5E is a great system and it can have some epic moments. But while 5E ALLOWS for epic moments by not strictly forbidding a fighter from say grabbing a lit oil lamp and throwing it onto a slime for improvised fire damage increased by a luck check for how much oil was left in the lamp, PF2E seems to have a lot of that excitement baked in from the start. Undead pulling at a fighter's ankles to bring them to the ground for easier strikes raises the stakes of the combat narratively and mechanically. Before I started my PF2E campaign I had encountered the video that this responds directly too. And I was left scratching my head by the claim that PF2E lacks choice in combat so we're going back to 5E. Seemed like someone saying "The french fries at this high end restaurant are unhealthy, so we're going back to eating at McDonald's."

@travisluecke Год назад

I enjoyed the video. Thanks for the detailed explanation of combat and choices. It’s nice that you added the math supporting the explanation. Well done.

@selfconfessedcynic 2 года назад

Great video! Looks like Knights of Last Call have some competition in the combat and tactics space!

@Tsotmiam Год назад

Thank you for this RL. My players have been parroting this narrative for almost a month. I have tried to get them to try playing in a more varied way, but they keep insisting they are playing in the best, most efficient way possible. It has been driving me round the bend trying to get them to see that doing the most damage isn't always the most efficient thing to do. I'm going to recommend this video for them. I understand that 2e has it's problems, but every system has problems. I believe you can play your way around and through most of them with help from a little imagination.

@mkmasterthreesixfive Год назад

The Rampardos theorem at its finest. Depsite having the highest attack stat in pokemon with possibly the highest damaging move in the game that does not also knock out the user, while having the type that boosts the move's damage further, it is considered one of the worst pokemon in the game because it has no other qualities to allow it to play in the game. These so called optimal rotations are just like this pokemon. Only good at 1 thing, and incapable of flexible change for a situation, and makes things harder on everyone else on the team.

@paralysekid Год назад

You should probably not only send them the video but also demonstrate tactics by letting the monsters use them ;)

@InUtahNotOfUtah 2 года назад

I hope Cody watches this. LOL.

@slasherhawk 2 года назад

I don’t think that dude wanted a discussion; he had a group of players who made one-trick ponies then got smashed and bored when that didn’t work in PF2e’s meta.

@nicholascarter9158 2 года назад

@@slasherhawk The way I remember that video Codys players *never* got stomped, and that was the complaint: the monsters included in the published adventure had no way to punish these ponies' particular tricks, and thus they spammed rotations to win

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

@@nicholascarter9158 Cody reported that that group had the first TPK of his GMing career. So there's a contradiction between his players supposedly finding the best thing to do, while also their characters dying, which he doesn't go into.

@ASalad 2 года назад

I wouldn't expect much from a CC whose take on comparing skill checks in D&D and PF2 is: "Player wants to jump a gap. In PF2 omg there are these rules for jumping and I have to figure them out to know how far they can jump! And it's different depending on if they want to jump vertically or horizontally!" "Player wants to jump a gap. In D&D I just tell the dude to roll a strength check, and they ask if they can roll athletics, so I say sure whatever athletics is good, and it's a sixteen, and I don't say anything about what my DCs are or appeal to anything, I just kind of arbitrarily decide 'sure you make the jump" (Completely ignoring and never mentioning D&D's own rules on jumping, how those rules are different for horizontal jumps vs. vertical jumps just like in PF2, and ignoring the fact that in PF2 the DM can also utilize a quick check for the sake of game flow.)

@dantedetoussaint209 2 года назад

Nah I don't think that guy cares all that much. He just wanted to buzz. Most likely doesn't want tactical all that much

@KogasaGaSagasa Год назад

Interesting to note that all of this is done on a relatively simple battlefield, in somewhat close range. In extremely close combat (say, in a room), the ranger's option obviously changes. If someone kicks over a table and use it as an impromptu cover against the ranger, that math also changes. Tactics change even in a simple room brawl, and it seems ill-advised to simply go "I have this optimal strategy". None of them considered much to assist one another until Recall Knowledge by the druid (I think, it's a long video and I am somewhat inebriated), which can also change the flow of combat and what one might call optimal. I really wouldn't think that PF2e is a game that one would use "MMO rotation" on, ahaha!

@TheRulesLawyerRPG Год назад

Did you see the 2nd battle?

@KogasaGaSagasa Год назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Oh, not yet! I was drunk when I was watching the video. (Great video btw)

@MarkHoltmanBTSD 2 года назад

Love that you are using Foundry in your videos! Such an awesome VTT.

@astrid2432 Год назад

what the fight quite shows too: as a gm, it's quite hard to have everything on the screen, specially about special feats and so that's why for every player too: please remember stuff that you have who can work on it. maybe you can try to fit it in roleplay, like: as the wight demoralize the fighter, the fighter stands proud and bravery, maybe countering it with like: you don't scare me (and maybe show the feat into the chat, if possible) it helps the gm, and it doesn't completly disrupt the fight

@astrid2432 Год назад

what I want to add: I heard from a other pf2e yter and he said: you shouldn't force situation with your feats like: OK, I got glad hand, I want to talk to people to use it it should be more: ok, their is a person we need to talk, I have the glad hand feat, that could help us in that dialog and that is the same with combat feats

@RagingWarHawk 2 года назад

Thank you for the informative video! I would love to see a Foundry tutorial in the future, because you used it with such ease.

@GryphonDes 2 года назад

This was a great bit of work - def. made me re-evaluate tactics in PF2E and appreciate just how much I'll be juggling as a DM :D THANKS!

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

I'm glad it helped!

@kat_boss5520 2 года назад

Really liked this one. I would like to see other videos where you explore more of the Game Mastering side of the game, like monster strategy, how you award treasure to your players, how you handle downtime and travel and so on

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Those topics are pretty general. Any more specific problems/questions? The PF2e rulebooks give pretty specific guidance on treasure. Also, I mostly run published adventures/Paizo Adventure Paths.

@stevemonte9299 Год назад

Unless they had a skill feat to do so. I believe the only thing I saw wrong beside the two noted in description, was that in the combat the first undead should have gone first instead of the swashbuckler as ties in initiative always goes to adversaries first. This has been a good video to share to my new players though.

@travisbewley7084 2 года назад

I remember watching 'that' video being bewildered. Are you 100% against any slight modification to the module or thinking about it reasonably? I remember when I used to run 3.5 and the meta game for my experienced players was trying to bend the math to the point of breaking and I was always side stepping them and subverting expectations. Got a player always turning into a T-Rex, why not design around that? Like, how are they doing that indoors? Wouldn't it be really hard to use with low tree canopies? Wouldn't a big t-rex starting fights be so loud it pretty much alerts every enemy remotely near by? I play more complex system, not only because I want more options in combat, but also because I want to be able to encounter more complex combat problems. Without complexity in encounter design it might just turn into 5e but with more math because you are leaving half the depth on the table.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

I agree. If combat can be approached one way every time and you can expect to win, is it really a challenge?

@Traumatree 2 года назад

Imo, "every ennemies" nearby would flee when they would hear the T-Rex roar, not come to see what it is lol

@gabrielcruz2510 2 года назад

This is an amazing video. I, as a new PF2 DM, am glad I've found you.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Glad to have you! Make sure to check out our Discord, where we talk games and are starting a quasi-Westmarches

@orbitalchiller Год назад

"the rules lawyer" genius xD

@lizzy532 Год назад

Another thing Valeros could of done that would have been really helpful for Jirelle when she was grabbed is that he could have shoved the Wight so she doesn't even have to risk not getting out of the grapple with her Escape and can focus on doing other things!

@pathetlao 2 года назад

Great job mate. Eloquent and rational! I was at a point where if no one does that I will. Thanfully you did because mine would not be as good as what watched.

@Forge_n_Brush 2 года назад

You put a lot of effort into this video. Thanks for that. Well done and I thoroughly enjoyed. ~Fritz

@danielmartinontiverosvizca7325 Год назад

people say combat is monotonous, but if they get more than two or three options they get "choice paralysis"

@XandiG 2 года назад

Love this video! Really shows the decision-making involved in good play. Was wondering if you were planning on making class shopping guides for previous classes, so I can show them to my friends and try to get them interested in 2e. Conversely, a guide on tactical options to use with a familiar would be helpful for me personally. I've always wanted to try out a Witch, or an Alchemist with a Homunculus. 😁

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

That was my original plan, tho I have a long list of other ideas so I don't know when they'll happen. It's been raised about doing videos on specific tactics/using different builds which I'm thinking about too

@yasaimasa6503 2 года назад

Great video! And love all the references you made

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

References? To what? =)

@highwind6325 Год назад

Rules Lawyer is the GOAT ty for your kind and thorough explanations as always!

@TacticusPrime Год назад

Great examples! Makes the value of good tactics clear.

@rallaa941 Год назад

I really like your explanation of options during the ranger's turn. Definitely think the 'player' in this situation should be getting into melee if their character is capable, since the swashbuckler has inadvertently put themselves into a pinch.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG Год назад

Thanks! You might be entertained by the video, then, that is a rebuttal to. If you search for 'illusion of choice'

@charmandenator5686 2 года назад

I'm leaving a comment for the algorithm mostly, but also because I really love this system and you've helped ease some of my anxieties due to inexperience. Best wishes!

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

I'm glad the vid was helpful!

@gor6518 2 года назад

This is great, i cant wait to see that boss batte!

@tfraenckel 2 года назад

I'm probably not the only one to point this out, but the Fighter cannot use trip there at the end. Trip, shove, and grab (not disarm, notably) all require that you have a free hand OR have a weapon with the appropriate trait to do that action. The shield boss and the longsword lack appropriate traits and both occupy a hand. Of course, he could just drop the shield, it's so late in the encounter that he probably won't need it

@MrRaposaum Год назад

From the "illusion of choice" arguments, I can see what people mean for certain classes and builds, but I would say that a bow ranger complaining about this is complaining with their bellies full, no matter the system used. Bows are the opposite of what you'd call "versatile" in a martial weapon. You pull the arrow, aim at your target (or indirectly aim for long distances), loosen the string and that's it. Versatility for a bow-user comes mainly from positioning to optimize distance modifiers and avoid enemy cover as much as possible. For being highly "cinematic", most RPG system gives bow-users classes options like drawing 2+ arrows or drawing multiple shots in rapid succession. That is already enough options and flavor for a bow-user, at least in martial terms. Rangers would have prey feature to use along side it, a "ranged gish" would have their own shenanigans, etc.

@nikolibarastov4487 Год назад

As soon as I heard 6 Wights at Level 5, I IMMEDIATELY Screamed, "THIS IS WHY YOU ALWAYS HAVE A CLERIC!!!", because with a Cleric, even an Evil one, this Fight would be infinitely easier. This is why I often played a Dwarf Cleric of Moradin into Battlesmith in 3.5, because of crap like this. Oh, I have to make a Fort Save? Is it vs Magic or Poison, rocket sauce! Oh, I took extra Domain, and took healing, and my healing spells have +2 per spell level for healing. Oh, and I have the Good Domain, and the Law Domain. All this to say... Pay the Lip Service, you Cleric to Keep, or you will soon find far more reasons to weep. For Clerics are Zealtrous Men, who need you far less than you need them. credit to Dan the Bard for his song, McAllister the Cleric.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG Год назад

Clerics are amazing vs. undead! I assume you know the origins of this video? (It is responding to the 2nd of a notorious pair of videos, and it's called "Illusion of Choice: Breaking It Down")

@nikolibarastov4487 Год назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Absolutely, if memory serves, Taking 20 said he was done with his players doing MMO like rotations, and at the risk of sounding rude, that's on him as a DM for not making the encounters different enough for them to consider other options, but also on the players for not thinking outside of the box. I've played for 17 years, and DM'd for a number of those, and I will say that it heavily depends on how the DM adapts to the players' strategies, which I think makes the difference between a good DM, and a Great DM. I will say, my Grognarding was mostly a bellyache that newer players overlook the value of a Cleric in many facets, it's not just combat, it's Community Connection to local churchs, and faith network, and political connections at higher levels. The Cleric is a staple in many groups for many good reasons. But, I am glad you played the Monsters as intelligent as they should be shows you are a cut above MANY DM's, and I am going to make a possible accusation here, but perhaps more adaptive and responsive to your players than Cody at Taking 20.

@somecallmetimelderberries432 Год назад

Nice series, thanks for doing it!

@Eccelsed 2 года назад

We are so lucky to have creators are skilled and good at explaining as you are. Also am I wrong or valeros should not have gotten frightened the second time due to bravery?

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Thanks And you're right! Correction's in the description

@Asurendra334 2 года назад

Can't wait for lvl 20. Keep it up

@ShadowoftheMask 2 года назад

I do find it hilarious how most of the comments are like "the video that shall not be named" :D

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Yeah, it's weird! I have no idea what they're talking about.

@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec 2 года назад

This is going into my semi-new player playlist .

@EmeraldPaladin777 2 года назад

You know, I think that once upon a time I would have loved 2e, and I think that's why I'm watching the video. I played a short campaign when it first came out and didn't enjoy it, but felt like I should have. I really enjoyed DnD 4th edition back when it was being released, and a lot of the actions in this video reminded me strongly of a lot of its 'fiddly bits' and conditions that came from the various powers from that system, and at the time I loved it! However, fast-forward 10+ years later and dealing with that much crunch just doesn't look fun anymore. Maybe it's the group that I've been playing with also being old grognards that tend to prefer the fast and loose ruleset of 5e, or maybe I'm just getting too old and tired to want to think that hard about my ttrpg's anymore. However, I think your video has allowed me to finally put this to bed for myself, so that you for that, at least.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

No worries. You may find that you'll want a 'break' and do something more tactical as a one-shot. Or not! Whatever you enjoy more. This video was to neutralize the misinformation put forward from a prominent RU-vidr.

@kaedegrv 2 года назад

I’ve been watching your videos for a while and I’m quite surprised by your combination of actual play, explainations and making it fun to watch. I think it’s also easy to see you arr ENJOYING it while doing it. It’s very entertaining. I also see you are active answering comments and you gm paizo’s adventures, so I would like to ask for your advice. I will have to GM a mini campaign which will last for a weekend. It will start on friday and end on sunday… and I would like players to have some decision making and also ending the campaign while thinking their characters completed something which actually matters, not just killing a bunch of things and voila. I just don’t know if I should go for a premade adventure or just create my own… and I want to get it right because 1 of the players is new to pf2 and another one is very excited about playing but never roleplayed before. Would you recommend a particular adventure for this situations? Any tips on how to approach the first combats so the experienced guys don’t think in dnd terms? Great content, keep it up!

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

The Beginner Box is the go-to recommendation. It's designed to teach both the GM and the players new concepts room-to-room. You might finish in 2 sessions. There is a single-location Level 2 adventure in Troubles in Otari, which is designed to complement the BB. However, you might not tie things "neatly" if you were to start with that. If you have extra time maybe dip toes into character creation? I'm not much of a homebrewer, so don't have much to say on that. Still, if you decide to homebrew the BB is still good as a reference to see how "someone else" teaches the game. The pregens actively encourage basic "3rd actions" - the fighter and cleric both have shields. Ask people to consider to weigh the benefits of attacking again vs. backing away, raising shield, etc. They should eventually "get it" if they're not being stubborn. :) There are some good threads on the PF2 subreddit on this topic. Demoralize and Feint are also useful.

@kaedegrv 2 года назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG thank you for your answer! I thought about begginer box + trouble in otari but it might be a bit to ambitious if we want to finish it in two days… even though we plan to play for around 12 to 16 hours. I’ve played with 2 of them in another GM’s game and the whole problem was convincing melee characters to just do anything but attack or damaging feats. It seems everyone was playing selfishly and I could not experience PF2’s tactical weight… quite surprised though, even though we underperformed so bad, we never had the feeling of real death danger. Maybe the gm was going easy on us, who knows. Also, using your third action to attack means you are going to critically fail more often which some people say it’s a good way to get you killed but I’ve not found anywhere in the rules where critically failing an attack has any effect.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

@@kaedegrv They say it gets you killed because of what you lose out on (basically doing something effective at all!) With 12-16 hours I personally would plan for the BB. If you guys feel ambitious you could do the first third of Troubles in Otari which is its own self-contained location. Otherwise, maybe just have fun with characters and fooling around with character creation/advancement maybe.

@lorenzovaletti4951 2 года назад

Very interesting test!

@roman.shulpi 2 года назад

Отличный ролик! Порой кажется, что некоторые блоггеры будто вообще в какую-то другую ролевую игру играли.

@elowin1691 Год назад

6:40 the ghost of rules lawyer's past

@bonez9729 Год назад

I was woundering why the party was performing worse with their stratagy then the wrights. Glad you showed us the difference between teamwork and solo work.

@yari4046 2 года назад

Also classic swashbuckler, jumps into the fight and proceeds to facetank every enemy lmao

@ItWasSaucerShaped Месяц назад

'rawr i am a bear!' 'boo i am a ghost!' 'oh no its a spooky ghost and i just a bear :('

@barnyfraggles Год назад

I've been eyeing up both PF1 and 2 to run instead of 5e, suffering a bit of burnout on it after years of pretty much the same characters over and over due to poor option choice in everything. I'm immediately attracted to PF1 because it has an insane number of non-hand-holdy options but I hear it's a nightmare to run as a GM. This seems a bit more in the middle.

@lukebatchelor717 Год назад

PF2 seems like the perfect balance between the two. I haven't played it yet but I am highly experienced (not qualified--experienced) with PF1 and the complexity pushed me out. I love it but back then the players were all stereotypical math nerds. Now that all the casuals have joined the game I can't run a PF1 game without constantly stopping to clarify rules over and over for new players. 5e just took such a weight off my shoulders. But it was too much off the top, so to speak. I need a bit more crunch, more options, more feats, more stuff, but with a bit of the streamline still intact. I need the inbetween. And I like Paizo's Golarion 100000x better than Forgotten Realms (a setting I grew up with and have always loved, and I say this in spite of that!!). I hope to run PF2 soon, gonna try some small adventures to test out before running a path.

@krispydunts1665 Год назад

PF2E is genuinely wonderful as a GM, even more so when you're playing online (or with a laptop at the gaming table). Everyone just needs to understand the most basic rules like flat-footed, attacking, casting spells if that's something they do, and the bare bones of what their abilities are. Otherwise, making encounters is easy as pie, if I don't know a rule off the top of my head then I can look it up on Archives of Nethys, and the wording for everything is very deliberate Edit; I've only very recently started playing PF2E coming from years of 5E, and dare I say it's the easier of the two systems to run

@FaptainCalcon750 2 года назад

Is Foundry how you usually GM, or, do usually go to like a gaming store to do that? Great vid, by the way! And good job on acknowledging your minor mistakes. There’s just so much to keep track of behind the screen, so, it’s perfectly forgivable. And I knew the whole “illusion of choice” and “MMO with rotations” from the you-know-what vid had to be nonsense; thank you very much for debunking that. I’m pretty sure the guy in question was just reaching for low hanging fruit to avoid just saying: “P2E is too rules heavy for my taste.”

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

I GM'ed in-person until the pandemic. One day I'll go back to in-person but probably stick to Foundry for people I GM who are far away.

@Prolink 2 года назад

Near the end, how does the fighter trip without a trip weapon? Either I’m misremembering longsword and shield boss traits (very possible), or he would have needed to drop his shield or sword to do it.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Good catch - Trip requires a free hand, which was easy enough in this case by Releasing his sword or shield. (Releasing is a free action). I added a correction in the Description.

@asdf_asdf948 Год назад

I think in general (with respect to TTG like pf and dnd) if players are able to do "optimal combos" every round then the problem isn't having optimal combos, it's that the encounter design isn't sufficiently challenging. If your PCs aren't in constant threat of taking life threatening damage, then of course they're going to sit there and spam the highest dpr options they have. If the enemies see you have an archer and are too dumb to take cover or try to abuse line of sight, that's on the DM and not on the class having these options.

@gglovato 2 года назад

Very useful video, i'm also interested in foundry and how you configured it

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

That video's in the queue!

@Esodum Год назад

I think the argument about "illusion of choice" come from ppl thinking action economy from their characters perspective. I've seen if more from ppl who have played 5e or are new to TTRPGs in general. 5e builds often fall on action formulas, you want to take the same things every turn because you picked up feats that favour one attack, spell or combo. In Pathfinder you pick things that favour those same things, but also skills that have uses in combat. Using a feat that let's you attack with one action and then a skill to set you up (or better yet, set your whole team up) for success next turn is the better choice. But since every skill has it explicitly said on what it can be used (discounting GM's rule of cool) you will have to change its use from time to time (or get really creative if you want to use the same skill for several situations). If you're figjting on a hill, why use all actions making attacks when you can use the third one to scan the area for something to help, find the conveniently placed boulder you GM put there and use your actions next turn to roll the rock over your enemies?

@almightydiplodocus8025 3 месяца назад

The passive aggression is so hot lol

@Morfp 9 месяцев назад

"The best thing is to always just to use Hunted Shot. My choices are illusory" - Player "No! That's the great thing with PF! You can do LOTS of other things! Like respec your character into a melee fighter!"- GM PF really strikes me as a computer game that has been chopped into a TTRPG that is best played on a computer...

@Minandreas213 2 года назад

This is a great video. But I do find it a little amusing how your first video is like "Pathfinder 2 is easy to learn!" But then here you've got notes up all over the place pointing out errors and rules clarifications. Obviously it's much harder when you're trying to run the enemies, all the players, and give useful commentary for the video. But it's still amusing. P2 really does have a massive heap of rules and things you have to remember.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

In any crunchy ruleset, 5e included, you're bound to miss something! Heck my recent video going over invisibility was a bit wrong. Just got to have the right attitude going in imo. I've had more running corrections since I *know* watchers will catch them! (Ahem I actually appreciate the contributions btw)

@Xorgrim Год назад

I am fairly new to PF2e: Did you apply the double slice (19:55-22:42) correctly? I thought, you would resolve both attacks before applying damage and special critical effects? So that flatfooted is applied after both attacks?

@player03 Год назад

Yeah, definitely looks like that's the case. The feat doesn't explicitly address crit specialization effects, but presumably it falls under "other applicable effects from both weapons."

@kevinbarnard355 2 года назад

Thanks for the detailed rundowns and suggestions. Just another improvement to the party's outcome with the coordination in 2nd attempt: Valeros wouldn't have been frightened by the wight @ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-p5xV7BOFwyw.html unless that was a critical success on the intimidation check 26 vs his Will DC of 20, I think. So the trip by the next wight wouldn't have succeeded either. So their careful maneuvers and teamwork would have been even more rewarded.

@criminalmatrix6 2 года назад

know it was a long combat demonstration, but as a non lawyer rules lawyer would like to point out that 1:09:00's demoralize would have been at frighten 0 before of Valeros' Bravery feature, which probably would have made that trip later not work.

@criminalmatrix6 2 года назад

but no one can expect anyone to remember all the things at all times.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

@@criminalmatrix6 Good catch. Yes in real life there will be the players at the table who will be expected to know their own abilities. And even then mistakes will be made! With TTRPGs they're inevitable. I did catch the fighter's Bravery ability elsewhere btw at 59:16

@jonfromtheinternet Год назад

I've been watching your back catalog as a GM trying to beef up on PF 2e. I'm curious about the following detail: the ranger needs to make a flat check to reload when grabbed. As far as I can see, only pg 279 of the core rules refers to reload, and the reload entry indicates how many interact actions are needed. A longbow has "0". It doesn't say free action; it's not an action at all. The only action taking place is strike action, which doesn't have the manipulate trait, but does include reloading. I think RAW here suggests you shouldn't need a flat check in that situation. Is there something I'm missing?

@TheRulesLawyerRPG Год назад

Don't have the language in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that idea is that you are interacting to take out the arrow (which no one can argue against in fiction), and reload 0 means there is no extra action cost when you Strike with it. You can't take out an arrow without doing the Strike action with the bow. Anyway I looked into this once and I think this is the thread where I found a discussion paizo.com/threads/rzs43lpx?Is-a-manipulate-action-baked-into-firing-a-bow

@cadencehouse539 Год назад

I am a bit late to this, but I noticed something at around 1:09:00 Wouldn't 5he fighter not be affected by the fr8ghtened condition, because of bravery?

@GMRayJ36 2 года назад

So, since you teach and play 5E and PF2E, do you 'like' playing in games that are more easily recoverable? Like, superhero-style rebounding with short or long rest recharge or Medicine Skill Treat Wounds/Battle Medicine and quick Heal spell availability? I'm wondering, because that gives more of an MMO and videogame kinda style. Aren't "combos" and "finishers" videogame terms? And, do you think that adds value to RPG's or not? Do you think that leads to rules-lawyers/"Builds", or is that just a player thing? Honest questions, not critiques. Thnx! 👍

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

First, it is a matter of taste and there's a subjective aspect to the answer. Some like gritty stories where drops in hit points represent actual injury ("hit points as meat" lol). Early D&D, while gritty by today's standards, was considered unrealistic and superheroic because you could heal away near-fatal injuries with a single spell. Gygax wrote at length explaining that hit points should be viewed as an abstract combination of health, vigor, and fighting prowess. For me, the main benefits of healing quickly between combats is that it makes it possible to make individual combats "balanced" -- as in, tense and exciting. As a GM you are safe in the assumption that the party will start a combat at full or near-full HP. They can press on after a fight and not have to retreat after 1 or 2 fights -- what was results is the "5 Minute Adventuring Day," and some would argue that THAT takes them out of the fantasy of being heroes. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about something because it resembles an aspect of a video game. For me, PF2e's mechanics improve the way in which it feels like a *game* (i.e. fun), while not taking me out of the fantasy of the imaginary world. It's possible for it to go too far, and for me D&D 4e made it feel too much like a game. Some might think PF2e and 5e go too far. Again, it's subjective. I also think that PF2e's feats help the imagination in thinking of "cool moments," and because PF2e is balanced, there is very little having to choose purely for optimizing purposes (or fear of "being left behind").

@GMRayJ36 2 года назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Great answers... thnx! And thnx for not taking me wrongly. I am old school, but my wife and kids love PF2E and so I'm trying get myself to "live with it", for them, and maybe have a lot of fun myself along the way. Appreciate your efforts and your reply as well. 👍

@jvoodoochild2755 Год назад

Question, about the death with the AoO. Since the attack is a reaction to someone leaving a threatened zone, when the attack is concluded are the combatants 5 or 10 ft apart?

@jonathanng7798 Год назад

Love the channel. I don't believe in the propaganda that there is an illusion of choice in BATTLE but hoping someone can argue this point. Does the imbalance of spell power and feats support the idea that there is an "illusion of choice" in character choices? I am going through Knights of Last Call tiering list and you will notice a lot of 'F' spells in design. This makes me feel that if you don't pick Magic Missile (S tier) then what are you doing? With so many situational feats and spells that don't do anything, selecting a spell from any of the lower tiers is the equivalent of a voluntary flaw with no benefits? Thoughts?

@Notsogoodguitarguy Год назад

I really like your videos, Rules Lawyer. But, I think you made a mistake in this one. In the first combat, where players were doing "optimal" choices, you had all allies spread out their damage over multiple enemies. If there was a reason behind it, you didn't make it very clear. Had they focused their fire instead of spreading it out, the combat would have been more different. Not necessarily a win, but others. And you made the enemies actually focus fire. You even said they would do that which the players would do, but the players didn't.

@powpowparn 2 года назад

Could you please explain how you did the math for ranger's hunted shot vs. shortsword? I'm assuming there is probability math of some kind involved...

@peterstedman6140 10 месяцев назад

I assume it weights the avg damage of each outcome by its probability

@jonathanpickles2946 Год назад

Spending an action and a reaction to have a chance of giving an ally +1 to a roll is what I use as a caricature of Pathfinder. Situational, conditional, marginal bonuses are not really my passion! I am pretty bored of 5e too but migrated more to indy games than crunchy ones.

@DandDgamer Год назад

Honestly if you look at Val he had a pretty cool toolkit, ignoring multiattack to trip a guy alone is HUGE. He has multiple competitive options. But yeah the help action makes me cry. Unless I'm missing something its irredeemably terrible in most situations

@BloodiedShingle Год назад

@@DandDgamer The fixed DC of 20 is both its blessing and its curse. At low levels it makes it harder to hit, but at higher levels it becomes quite easy to critically succeed at the aid reaction, granting +2/+3/+4 depending on the training level of the assisting character.

@peterstedman6140 10 месяцев назад

I mean, stacking bonuses is usually more effective than spamming MAP affected actions

@ODDnanref Год назад

Guess it would be easier if I knew the rules. Raise Shield fest. Does it use a reaction? Or is it just any time you would be hit? So infinite uses? In that case why is it not just a permanent no need to raise Shield to gain benefit from it AC bonus? If it is limited, where exactly does the rules specify that?

@TheProtoguy Год назад

It takes one of your three actions to Raise your Shield, which gives a boost to your AC. If you rose your Shield and an enemy attacks you, you can use your Reaction to Shield Block, reducing the damage taken equal to your shield's Hardness.

@BossTripp1 2 года назад

The fighter can’t be frightened 1 from bravery right? I know that was a lot of information to keep track of but right before he was tripped he shouldn’t have been frightened.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

I caught it elsewhere in the video (at 59:16), but alas you'd be right. Behold the power of +1 in PF2e!

@StephenHutchison Год назад

How does Valeros use his SHIELD to attack when both hands are holding swords? As you described it, double slice requires two weapons. ETA: Thanks for the explanation, guys. "Slice" is a dumb name, then, since shield bosses don't normally get edges. I guess unless runes or something. At the time I first watched this vid, I was in a game where the rotation was absolutely present; my Catfolk Champion (of Cayden Caelian) would routinely move, make one or two swipes, and save his reaction for the "rebuke" action that inflicted holy drunken guilt, unless someone desperately needed a LayOnPaws. Rinse, repeat. Failing to follow this process got people killed. It was never worth it to deviate and I'd get complaints from other people if I didn't maximize damage. It was becoming tedious. (Yes, if I had the chance, I''d raise shield at the end of my turn.)

@Simple_Fox Год назад

Shield boss weaponizes the shield. Thus, Valeros is wielding two weapons; his sword and his shield. The shield is being used as a blunt-impact weapon in this case.

@aevum6667 2 года назад

Interesting topic

@CraigBogun 2 года назад

Thanks for that, can I ask what Foundry Mods you have installed for this?

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

They're listed in the description. Also I don't know when I'll do it but I plan to post a video about my Foundry setup.

@timdog2657 2 года назад

Small question, is that a mod that is highlighting the current player in orange? That would be super useful! Its easy to lost track of who is active sometimes. Yes, you can click on them on the tracker but it'd be nice for it to do what yours is doing

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Yes! It is called Turn Marker. I have a video that goes through the mods I use in Foundry which you should see.

@timdog2657 2 года назад

@@TheRulesLawyerRPG awesome, I searched it (and the video) up and now have it :)

@quark12000 2 года назад

When Valeros was knocked prone near the end, shouldn't he have dropped his weapon and shield? Meaning he would need to use actions to pick them up when he stood up.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Being knocked Unconscious makes you drop held items. Just being knocked Prone doesn't.

@Sokko325 26 дней назад

The crit with the shield boss can push 5 feet(with crit spec) which would break the restrain.

@carnaedy Год назад

I am not sure if I should be happy about this or not, but this video made *all* Taking20 videos unwatchable for me. I used to think that the guy was making decent points, albeit in a clickbaity manner. Now, I suddenly realise just how many rules he is missing completely or misinterpreting, and how damage-hobo-eff-teamwork his "experienced" gaming group is. This is not just regarding PF2E; his videos on DnD 5E or Starfinder are just as bad, now that I rewatch them.

@lightblckknight 2 года назад

This makes me wish I could double like.

@albertoroper4901 2 года назад

Hi forever dm of 5e here, I want to pick up q new system, i found pathfinder super resourceful, I just wondered. How would an improvised action from a player look like? Can a Dm somehow improvise/adapt rules as the request is extravagant enough?

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

Yes! What makes this easy is that EVERY stat is based on the same formula: Proficiency (Level+training level) + Ability Modifier. So to jump onto a mounted enemy's horse to wrestle you can do ATHLETICS or ACROBATICS vs. the NATURE DC (Nature is the "animal handling" of this game) Also, you can choose to give Simple DCs (untrained 10, trained 15, expert 20, master 30, legendary 40) or refer to a chart of level-based DCs. This preserves the fantasy of high-level characters being much more capable than low-level ones, and specialists much better than people trying things for the first time.

@FlameUser64 Год назад

With the example you provided of the action conflict of Deadly Aim and Hunted Shot… I personally would ignore Deadly Aim. If you have a Focus Point to spare and think you'll be able to recover it after combat, I would cast Gravity Weapon, Hunt Prey, and then fire off Hunted Shot. This just seems more efficient damage-wise, to me. Alternatively, if you're using a weapon with a big damage die and that isn't Agile, maybe you should ignore Hunted Shot and exclusively use Deadly Aim. I'm unsure whether the -2/+4 is a worthwhile trade with Gravity Weapon and Hunt Prey's damage boosts, however.

@KalaamNozalys 2 года назад

I have a question for the aid action. If my fighter wants to Aid the Ranger's next attack. Can they do that DC 20 (or more) weapon attack roll even if they aren't next to each other ? (Provided they are close enough to the enemy the Ranger is targetting) I do not see anything saying you need to be adjacent to the ally you help.

@flameloude 2 года назад

Yes, aid is heavily dependent on the gm. If they think how you want to aid makes sense for the situation they will allow the aid.

@KalaamNozalys 2 года назад

@@flameloude Oh ok, this is way more flexible than I thought.

@flameloude 2 года назад

@@KalaamNozalys yep

@TheRulesLawyerRPG 2 года назад

@@flameloude Yep. As for it being GM specific, I think there's a fair argument that DC 20 should *not* be the default DC! (Blasphemy, I know!) But yes, it's one of the few rules in the system that I think is flawed. Fortunately, it explicitly asks the GM to use their judgment.

@dungeonsanddronesrpgroup Год назад

Watching this level 5 party is a little overwhelming when you've not played this system. PF1e seems much simpler. I'm still going to give this system a try, though. I'm guessing if we start at level 1 and grow complexity with each level it won't be so difficult to work with. Also, using a VTT might be helpful. Is there a VTT that helps level up characters? A nice advantage for 5e is that leveling up is handled by D&D Beyond or Roll20.

@TheRulesLawyerRPG Год назад

After 8 years of running PF1e, I can assure you that PF2e is much simpler in play than 1e, and that lack of familiarity is at play here. Pathbuilder and Wanderer's Guide guide you through character creation and is esp. easy when you limit yourself to the Core Rulebook. They cannot be imported into Foundry however. But it's pretty easy to build your character in Foundry, esp. with the Quick Insert module (Ctrl + Space to find anything). Leveling up takes literally several clicks, ONCE you know what you've chosen already.

@tabletopgamingwithwolfphototec 2 года назад

📝 I will cover Pathfinder 2nd on my channel after i cover all my Dungeons & Dragons "5th Edition" products ( Dice , maps , cards , screens books & Etc. ) .