Let the Fighting Game Controller Arms Race Begin 

The Xbox Kinect player will always come out on top. No levers, no buttons, not even a single a compatible game - literally impossible to fight.

The "my opponent had a hitbox" OS after losing will be strong this season, I can't wait

There's this scene in Code Geass when the main dude and tactician Lelouche gets his own giant mecha and its weird shield systems are described as too complex for the average person to master. He's basically just sliding his hands across this console to make shields and shit pop up. The mech was made with its own custom hitbox no doubt.

The Potemkin mains really out here making their own boxes just to do the worlds most optimal megafists

At locals, when I first saw his controller, I asked anklegator if it had SOCD, he then flipped the switch in the upper left corner and said 'Yes.'

The year is 21XX. Everyone is playing fighting games with their minds alone. EVO is just people thinking for 12 hours. In all seriousness, as a Keyboard player I think it’s real funky that people are just moving to leverless controls, because it just feels like people will at some point eventually end up where I already am.

the controller debate will always feel like a bunch of monkeys arguing over how best to crack open a coconut

"This jungler takes off his pants and twerks in every lane at the same time" that made me chuckle lol

The amount of power that exists in 4 frames

The Anklegator has me in a quantum state between being fucking disgusted and wanting one.

In this video, Sajam becomes a grappler sympathizer.

the immense, intense game winning strategy* that broke the game *strat thats only ideal when your mind is crystal clear, your soul is at peace, you anticipate the enemy's next move, you're able to input in less than 5 frames, your hands arent cold, its past 5pm east time, your connection is less than 80 ping, the enemy has a name starting with a-f, and you have next week's powerball winning numbers

its worth adding that the kara mega fist "analog macro" as he calls it was intentionally done to point out a loophole in macro bans. he cites the 2,222 card yugioh deck as inspiration, which was a ridiculous stunt done in tournament to force a card limit. the only macro rule is that one button can't do 2 inputs, which his nightmare solution passes, but it's obviously still basically a macro.

From pot discord mad scientist to sajam video. My man anklegator has made it

I’m so glad to finally see the inputs on that last controller. I’ve seen that thing at a few majors lol

And so the cycle begins anew…

I managed to hold it together until the kara megafist electric slide demonstration. What an absolute legend

That final controller is insane lmao, I love the idea

Watching that person slide one finger to do a kara Mega Fist left me in awe. Truly science has gone too far.

The PizzaBox clips had me fucking dying. The future is now

The default solution to something like the end controller, that games like League of Legends and others attempt to do, is to restrict the amount of copies of a button you can use. So for example League attempts to limit certain inputs to only being assigned to 1 button. And some inputs are limited to just 2 buttons. So you cant just have 10 left inputs or something for each combo. This still allows for making combos easier to execute via optimizing the required hand movement. But its restricted in such a way that it's no longer a ''Simple'' ''No compromises" solution of just putting every combo in a line somewhere on your pizzabox.

I'd love to see a King from Tekken version of a hitbox with all of this chain-throws mapped out

The comfort is key answer has always rung true for me too. My first fighting game was Hisoutensoku on my laptop, and my second was Melty Blood. And from there forward hitting the buttons to move just felt good, felt natural. Then somewhere along the line I fell for the stick boomers sweet words and got one, but it just wasn't as good and especially dash canceling in Blazblue hurt my wrist like crazy. Eventually I settled on using a keyboard at home and having a compact little AFS Stickless that I exclusively use for locals, and it works out beautifully.

"SOCD on controller isn't comfortable so people don't do it." Hating on claw grip like a true-non Melee player.

Personal preference is the most important factor, at least to me. When I was learning fighting games, I actually had to switch from pad to stick for a few reasons: -I was gripping the controller so hard I was hurting myself, be it my palm, my fingers, my wrist, etc -I found out I naturally hold the pad at an angle where it actually screws up my inputs -I enjoy the novelty of a fightstick That being said, I think if I had the opportunity to start over with a hitbox, I think I would 100% do it.

anklegator is amazing, imaging just having rows upon rows of frame perfect combos.

people thought sticks were better because macros were illegal in arcade games. That's literally it. Once consoles were standard it became pretty meaningless

To me, this jus show that Lord Aris is the most powerful person in the FGC. He really went to the moon ...

I would cry if I had to do a 1080 on leverless yall got my respect

I'm sure these devices were originally made with the intent of better inputs, but they're also available for better accessibility for people who prefer keyboard style inputs. So in the end, I don't care if it's a hitbox or dualshock or DDR pad, you're playing the same game as me and I think that's cool.

I might've said this before somewhere but I have a prediction about the rules that will be made regarding this stuff. Pretty simple, no button mapped to execute multiple inputs (already a rule, can't map > plus P as a 6P macro), and no non-directional input mapped to multiple buttons, directional inputs restricted to 2 buttons to mirror pad (can't have more than 1 S buttons and more than 2 ^'s for instance). This won't prevent hitboxes and crossups from being used but will prevent nonsense. Personally I'm okay with the level of nonsense we have now, but it may get worse, and the boomers will complain. So I think this is a fair middle ground we can reach.

Me, a keyboard player cuz I have little money: _"I'm four parallel universes ahead of you."_

Only been playing 2D fighting games since Strive. I started playing on an Xbox controller and hit celestial with Zato using the joystick. People would comment on how terrible my inputs looked; but I somehow managed to find consistency in combos and pressure. Tbh I though my I was schmooving. However… I couldn’t block high/low to save my life. It wasn’t my reaction times or understanding it was the consistency of getting a crouch block/stand block and not accidentally getting a jump. I got a hit box and now I’m trash AF, but goddamn am I consistent at defense. Another year of practice and I’ll be able to play at the same speed I was before lol.

Funny, I got my hitbox in the mail literally today. And really the SOCD makes a huge difference in tekken for backdashing but not much else. The reason I got it though was because I don't want to wreck my wrists and my thumb on a pad anymore.

"'lowkey leverless players don't block.' I agree" wow I feel called the fuck out right now

Arcade stick is the most interactive and fun way to play for me even though it's not technically the best and i will never switch even if i will lose some games because of it because i got into fighting games growing up in Japan and arcade sticks made and still makes the experience magical.

That Amazon box is the most terrifying thing I’ve seen. I love it.

Having played pc gaming for close to 10 years now I tried playing stick and pad and after trying hitbox and loving the layout I got me a evo mpress. The mechanical switches just complete me reminding me of playing on keyboard. Honestly im worse off then I was on stick with stuff but Its way more comfortable.

The interesting thing about keyboard is that movement isn't the issue (WASD) it's actually the eight other buttons for your right-hand. It's very easy to experience cramping of the hand in the first hour, and if you remap them to make it easier you have to keep your hand positioned the same way hours on end. It's very micro muscles intensive for the right-hand, essentially

Surprised that split ergo keyboard hasn't become more popular, beats the hell out out of flat buttonbox

On leverless it's not rare for me to straight up lose a game for missing a DP or Half Circle input and then getting hit with an 80% combo for it. Leverless is faster if you're a perfect human, but I feel like the consistency of stick inputs is being slept on in games that are less forgiving on diagonals. Consistency wins more games than tiny optimizations. Overall they both get similar results and I hope people can get over it; if owning a stick is a barrier to getting into fighting games it will limit the scene's growth

Meanwhile you have Aris still thinking about hitbox is cheating.

The only controller-building experience I have was building an arcade control panel for a future MAME machine. Y'know, something with a trackball and a spinner on it. In this context, it isn't about what's best for gaming, it's nostalgia-feel. No tiny Japanese zero-force buttons, we need period-accurate clicky garbage! Which also means digital 8-way sticks. Does your game absolutely need analog sticks? Well, let me get my XBox360 pads in, then... haha, I fooled you! I only brought in those pads so we can play 6-player X-Men!~

this feels like people are just obsessed with the sanctity of arcade sticks like as a TO would you actually ban dualshocks from your tournament cause they can do more

Fun fact about "The Slide" KoF 2003 *LITERALLY* made the command for Ash's install super deliberately with this in mind. It works on KoF XI, XIII, and XV too!

Ok but imagine how more accessible we could make the scene by making custom controllers like this more standard

Video comes out right when snackbox micros are all sold out :/ Seems like alot of arcade parts are out of stock too.

@Sajam @7:42 the problem is the hardware from the beginning never had the option to simultaneously input opposite directions so the entire genre formed around that limitation. The games don't know what to do because they've relied on not needing to know what to do in that situation.

Fgc boomers will look you dead in the eye and say pick a top tier, then plug in their fightstick💀🕹🤡 Mom Im on FGC Opera, ive made it

Getting a Snack Box Micro in Oct My first no-stick controller (besides keyboard)

Sliding my arm across my entire keyboard to do my ToD, hell yeah.

First Aris now Sajam? Leverless controllers must be making waves right now!

Following the logic people apply to hitbox top tier characters should be banned they provide a clear advantage over the lower tier characters.

I got a fightstick a week ago. My god does it feel so much better than a keyboard with ghosting. Not getting angry at dropping inputs anymore. That's it, just wanted to share.

Game mechanics will adapt to new controller types in the future. Current games were developed arcade stick/pad in mind but they can easily change the mechanics simply by limiting the fastest possible input speeds closer to what's possible on a stick and that will stop all impossible moves that the game wasn't developed for. I'm not sure if it big changes will make it to Tekken 8 but for sure it will already adress impossible on a stick quick input moves and mechanics in some way.

I grew up playing fighting games on a keyboard. Switching to a hitbox was a godsend, with almost no downside or adjustment time!

This is a great and informative video and I always enjoy seeing what new drama these "cheaters" stir up. So, as a keyboard player, this conversation is super interesting to me because it has no actual impact on me overall because I'm a keyboard player, and well, sajam described that plight perfectly at 2:47, made worse by the fact that I have a custom input setup: I play "left handed", with my left hand handling the input buttons and my right hand managing the motion inputs. This has also resulted in me being even further guaranteed to never go to an in-person tournament since hitbox doesn't actually sell a left handed version. So as a player, I always find myself looking at this and going "wow, these are cool, but wow this doesn't actually impact anything but I love the arms races" But I also work in game dev, and I find myself thinking about 7:35-7:49 and just finding myself annoyed that, in 2022, there are games that just don't think to handle this or handle it uniformly within their own game. And that, if that oversight went through, they haven't gone and fucking patched it to be consistent. Like, c'mon guys. But then again, fighting games and basic features. I also think it's super interesting that the limit is single-input rather that double and would love to just see what a two-input limit would result in and how much of an impact it'd have. All that said, anklegator has certainly given me some ideas and something deep inside calls to me to make a custom one so I can maybe someday spend entirely too much money going to a tournament and going 0-2 in every bracket I enter but having a blast the whole time anyways Edit: You know, thinking on it, my left-handed setup may actually be perfect for newcomers to a game like project-L, where they may well be coming from league and are used to using the buttons on the left being the ones that do their abilities and then moving with their right hand, even if it's normally via mouse.

After playing on all those, pad felt the best for me. Factor in portability and availability... it's almost a no brainer. I can walk up to a Best Buy or Gamestop to get what I need easily. To me though, Hitbox and its derivatives take the best of the pad and the worst of the stick. Have to lug it around for around 6 hours can be exhausting as it's oddly heavy. Although there's nothing more satisfying than using an arcade stick. The sensations go through the body

I'm picking up stick for the times I visit a place with cabinets. That way I can hop in on the fun.

Chef Throws Ceasar Salad In The Trash. Turns Out He Tossed The Wrong Salad

I think an RC radio controller with a dance pad is the future, once you master this combo you will have an competitive advantage you wouldn't believe! For real though, all controllers have some things slightly easier and some things slightly harder. Most viable control schemes can do anything you want with practice. Just play with what controller you like.

Man I love the dragon punch shortcut on lever less

Old decrepit hands actually benefit from stickless controllers. Most of the older FGC players I know have moved to them for wrist/arm issues.

Haven't watched yet but that thumbnail is godlike

Melee player here, I think its wild fighting games don't limit controllers to one button per input like we do. The monstrosity that guy made would be the literal first thing I would think to do if that wasnt limited.

Swapped to a keyboard style controller recently, as you said some things are harder others are easier than with my old stick. The one I have is also compatible with ps4 and is way smaller and more portable than most sticks are. Being able to rebind the buttons however I want is very helpful.

At the end of the day, I just want to watch great sets

Controller debate will alway be there in gaming for some reason

Doing it from the other side is actually one of the better arguments for a crossup that I've heard.

the wiring took me out. I was laughing for like 3 minutes.

I'm really glad you said to think about hand comfort. A lot of these different devices are someone's disability tool.

on the slide comment. People used to do that for honda hands. There was a local player in my area that did that and put tape on his finger to prevent injury.

Alpha build SF6 Ryu can already do shinkuu hadouken by pressing forward+ 2 buttons. Gief will be in the game as well, which means in SF6 you will be able to push one directional input+ 2 buttons to get his 720° super while standing. So this 4 frame forbidden secret technique is half a year away from being obsolete anyways.

The wiring actually made me flinch

Each method has its pros and cons, but it's all about preference at the end of the day. I grew up poor, and what little money I had for Vidya, I wasn't gonna spend it on fighting games. I would rather go to the arcade. Because of that, I was always shit with a gamepad in most Fighters

If I'm being totally honest the "Skill" portion of this argument will probably never matter to me because I don't think I'm gonna be in the percentile of people who its ACTUALLY effects. BUT I will recommend people who can afford to; experiment with different controller types. I started on pad with SFIV and I've always had problems with fast repetitive moments on my left thumb(Shoryukens and dqcf for example), but I'm a kid button-mashing anyway so I don't really care. Years later I'm playing Xrd. I buy myself a stick just cause I was curious and see one for pretty cheap. I prefer it over my controller(for my right hand), but things feel awkward with my left hand Still. I start playing Strive, and I'm having the most fun I've ever had in a fighting game, I'm putting time into actually learning. I really like this game, BUT I can still feel the awkward movement in my left hand. The worst part is that I now care and I can FEEL how the movement I need to do with my left hand is tangibly affecting my gameplay( I would not pick certain characters, or use certain combo routes because of it, and If the game didn't have a dash macro I probably wouldn't even play it.) but now, I care. So I start experimenting with controller types. First, I do keyboard. I really like it but I don't want to play on something with sea keys cause I'm generally clumsy and ill press the wrong button or something. Then I try a hitbox(micro specifically) I like it ALOT but I have very minor nitpicks, so I try MixBox. It's FUCKING PERFECT it is exactly what I needed it to be. It is how I will always play fighting games and I can feel the improvement from it because it doesn't feel awkward to me anymore. TL: DR you probably shouldn't get a stick just because you think its will "up your level", but if you're able to, id recommend experimenting around if you can. There are a ton of ways to mode sticks into various types of controllers for relatively cheap if you know where to look.

Incase anyone finds it catchy, the song in the Potemkin part is a 8bit/midi rendition of Drone Corpse Aviator by Archspire.

6:20 got me laughing like Bill Clinton in the '99 online townhall with that

Another fun thing to add about arcade sticks in the controller debate is that the standard arcade stick is actually left-handed, not right-handed. Apparently, it is because more people are right-handed, so arcade owners could try to limit more people in order to squeeze out a few more coins. A good comparison would to think about how you would hold a guitar and how that would translate to a stick. You use your dominant hand for precision movement and the other for "button" presses. Even a mouse and keyboard puts the button presses on the less dominant hand and the precision movement on the dominant one. However, there are arguments to be made for fighting games that the button presses require more precision and rhythm than moving the lever does. It just comes down to what feels good to use.

i love using a hitbox because i love the feeling when the blood vessels in my hands explode

“why grind when you can slide” Sajam 2022 😂😂

I've had a hitbox for a couple years now, I still can't do half-circles or TKs 100% consistently on it, which I could easily do on my old stick. Admittedly most games, or at least characters I play, nowadays don't require those inputs, so I haven't had a reason to train those inputs as much lately.

Dude is literally playing the piano of fighting games

I play stick because hehe stick make noise and feel good. It pleases my monkey brain

After seeing all this 🥊 📦 controversy I’m deciding to just buy new buttons and a tighter spring for my fight stick.

What situations in SF5 would you replace a 4-frame with an extremely punishable special move (CA) requiring a specific hand set-up, that ends a combo? And it's even harder on the right side. It's hard for me to think about. Someone tell me. I'm not even trying to imply the 4-frame super isn't that useful, I just can't see it other than setups (legit use) or fast punish/spacing move. Ok now that I mention the few I can think of, that's pretty good. Love my cheatbox.

As a long time leverless box user i agree that many of the socd cleaner techniques are just a little odd to use during play and I barely use any of them. I just like the clarity of no lever. Its fun i could use or find special techniques but I barely do and just use it as a regular controller 😂

The abbynormal Young Frankenstein reference. YES

i though the amazon box hitbox was a joke at first, Jesus lol

Ankle Gator is the messiah.

do you like the snackbox or the mpress more ?

Talking about doing SOCD on a pad reminded me of being able to press all buttons on the Razer Raion. Wonder if they thought of that so they didn't add the pivot before

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Makes sense that stick would trend out. Fighting games are the only genre that are married to the controller even outside of arcades. And sticks aren't necessary for directions in any genre.

I fell for the sick meme years ago. Glad I did it though, I could never get directions to work for me on pad.

I got some big ass hands so I switched to fight stick instead of a regular controller. It instantly felt better than my controller for movement, however it was a pain to memorize the button combo that was mapped simply to the controller.

I use pad for 2d games, I use mixbox for Tekken. I grew up playing SF2 and all the other games that came out back then on SNES and so I'll always be a pad player when it comes to 2d games. I can do DP on pad without thinking about. I can do motion inputs on my arcade stick and mixbox, but I'm slower and go from being able to do a motion input 10/10 times to 7/10. I have considered building a hitbox just to try it out. But just like you said I always tell people the most important thing is that your input device feels comfortable. You don't want to be thinking about or fighting against your input device while you're using it. It's like shoes, you don't want to actually feel your shoes on your feet, you want to forget they're there, if your shoes are constantly reminding you they are there something is wrong and you're probly gonna end up with blisters.

guile being able to dash/backdash while holding charge is huge also socd's nuts

The funny part with hitbox is keyboard inputs function in the same way

You can straight up mod your stick into a hitbox with mechanical keyboard switches since all sticks are just four switches in a circle and arcade buttons aren't special you can just rewire them to keyboard switch. If you have trouble making a face plate to capture the switches, go to a local makerspace with a laser cutter and some acrylic. I found cast 0.06" thick acrylic works best for thickness tolerance. Some testing with rectangle sizes for the snap in switches and boom you can put the keyboard keys wherever you want. Makes paying for expensive arcade stick buttons unnecessary. The only issue might be SODC cleaning not being handled by the stolen control board but it can be easily swapped for a brooks board later if you like it.