LIZZIE BORDEN REVISITED…AGAIN!  

lol. Thank you. I agree. I’m thinking of doing an experiment with a coat and hacking a fake blood-filled head with quick clean up to see how long it takes. If so I’ll definitely upload that video.

@@bigprettyman3795 you should! I will definitely watch if you do.

​@@bigprettyman3795 ewww.. lol ok yah l would watch that too.. mainly for the results.. l said that on another thread.. that she covered herself with her fathers coat.. maybe a scarf for her hair..? easy clean up since they had a cistern..

lizzie sister was gone

​@@louisdifranco9633Emma didnt leave their new mansion, Maplecroft , until 7 yeats later. Altho' 5 years after the murders, she confided to a church minister that Lizzie's scandalous parties with actress Nance O'Neil were a bone of contention between the sisters. Actresses were regarded as almost on a par with sexworkers back then. Genteel ladies did NOT socialise with actresses.😂

I mentioned this in one of my videos. She didn’t panic or run as she would have no idea if the killer wasn’t still in the house. She saw her father just 15 mins before alive and well and now his head is chopped in and blood running. Yet she announced her presence and calls for the maid! It’s as though she knew she was in no danger. Also, as Dr Bowen pointed out, she DID change clothes not long after police arrived, and nobody was going to strip check a Victorian lady.

@@bigprettyman3795 yeah, that’s one question I’ve often had that why Lizzie stayed in the house after finding her father slaughtered in the sitting room. Who would stay calmly inside a house coming upon a situation like that? Anybody but her would be in fear for their life! She knew she was not in danger staying inside.

What exactly makes you think that Mr Borden was Lizzie's "loved one"? Thank you.

there's @ lot of vi@ble inform@tion th@t w@s thrown out. first, during the interrog@tion, they s@y, lizzie contr@dicted herself fifty times. but it w@s thrown out bec@use she didn't h@ve her l@wyer with her. @lso, the b@rn loft @libi, w@s thrown out. i don't know why though.

Google has the whole transcripts.

Impossible to have done this in the nude. She wouldn’t have time to strip, kill him, wash and redress in that 19th century dress. In less then 15 mins? No. The coat stuffed under his head was saturated in blood. Don’t know what they did with it.

Look at the crime scene photo of Andrew Borden - the coat is under the pillow under his head.

We’ll never know. People have varying relationships of intensity and sensibilities. Whereas leaving wouldn’t cause a permanent rift between me and my siblings, considering how close they had been all their lives Emma’s decision to move away could have brought on a parting argument that ended their relationship. Could be Lizzie saw it as an abandonment and rejection of her closest confidant in life. Odd, but families have parted over less. Also, once again we must apply Victorian standards and sensibility. Could be Lizzie’s ‘party lifestyle’ with what was seen as low-lived was such a shame Emma felt obligated to condemn her. However, I see no proof of a lesbian relation causing. It could have, is a possibility of course, but no evidence. This just extreme speculation. In the end, only the sisters know, and they been dead nearly a century.

Love that documentary. Watched it live and recorded it on my VCR ( that dates it!). Has some inaccuracies in it, but still one of the best!

Now THAT is interesting! See what fresh eyes can see? I’m going look into this. Think you may have noticed something important! Bravo!

@@bigprettyman3795 something else makes me wonder. Lizzie can't risk a confrontation and have a struggle for the weapon. It has to be a surprise. Handkerchiefs are in a laundry basket. Put the weapon in the basket, cover it with the handkerchiefs, bring it upstairs and ask a stupid question, and Abby turns her back to finish her work, quickly put the basket down, pull out the weapon, handkerchief comes out with it, it's over.

Thank you for the compliment. It’s a similar case and has been noted several times. I was alive during those eras. Not nearly the difference as between Victorian and the 21st century. However, it is interesting and I’ll give it some serious thought.

See my last video on the subject. Think you’ll approve.

​@@bigprettyman3795I've watched all your Lizzie Borden videos and some of them I've listened to twice! I really appreciate the scholarly approach to this case as well as your speculations based on the evidence. I hope you do other cases in the future. I've started to listen to your Jack the Ripper video too. One thing I wish the Victorians had was modern forensics! But alas, they did the best with what they had, I suppose.

Nevermind, I just got to the part where you said that lol!

Lol. Smh

I completely agree.

It is interesting she stayed. I think it was flat stubbornness. She just refused to leave the town and culture in which she had grown up.

FALSE. Bridgette had no wealth, moved to Butte, Montana and worked as a maid for a judge. She married a man also named Sullivan, and lived out her life quietly in Montana. At the time of her death she had the modest savings of working woman. This is another of these baseless rumors that is defeated by facts, records and bank accounts. If the Lizzie House is giving that false info then that employee should be reprimanded and/or terminated. Always Recheck and question your sources.

A child with an hatchet or iron could have based their heads in. That’s what a hatchet is made for. I cut wood with one at five, so a 32 year old stout woman wouldn’t have an issue.I saw no side door except the one by the kitchen. I’ve explained how she did the clean ups in my videos. She had an hour after her mother. Her father was likely the coat and a headscarf easily tossed in the stove.

And I’ve found no evidence of Andrew Borden having a son.

@@bigprettyman3795 hey, I'm new to your channel so I didn't see all the videos yet. I came across another video speaking about a son, so I thought I would ask. Must've been cool to stay in the house, was it creepy? Cheers

@@bigprettyman3795 Did the side door by the kitchen lead to the barn?

See my all my videos, Hon. I answered a lot of this, but yes we are of the same mind.

@@bigprettyman3795 I’m catching up.. at the time, I’d have no idea you’d be doing multiple reviews

Also, Bridget wasn’t allowed to go on the second floor and first floor(I believe) because they didn’t trust her enough, that’s why she was in the attic. The Borden women were the ones to clean the second and first floors; that’s why Abby was in the guest room making the bed and fixing the pillows.

I'm so happy you enjoyed the video and I hope you watch the prior two videos I made on Lizzie Borden. I agree with many things you've said and they have been in my two prior videos on this subject. However, there are a few issues here I can address. The weapon was most likely a hatchet, and I doubt a meat cleaver due to the width of the wounds. However an interesting theory holds it may have been one of those old-fashioned stove-heated irons. That may fit as the blows are more bludgeoning than cutting. An old fashioned iron would do that, whereas even a partially dull hatchet with its wedge blade should go right through the heads instead of just the shallow but crushing wounds on one side of the head. Definitely a strong possibility I feel. John Vinnicum Morse was a farmer and horse trader. He moved to Iowa and did well in life, leaving a nice sum of money in his WIll. Ive read nor heard nothing of him ever being a butcher, but I will check into that. As I explained in the video, Morse' memory of that day was proven true, showing her was there. As i said, less distractions back then, and he may well be the type that has that kind of memory. His niece confirmed he was visiting with her around 11am, making it impossible he killed Andrew, and obviously these crimes were done by the same hand.There is no proof for a bastard son named William Borden,. The only William Borden that can be found was of no direct relation. If you check the directory of Fall River for 1892 you'll find a ton of Borden's. They were an old prominent family in that town with many, many branches.This ridiculous story of a bastard son that liked hacking horses with his axe, walked around covered in horse-blood, and talked to his axe like a person comes from a Lizzie Borden book from the 90's that is complete bullsh*t. Bridgett actually began working for another family in a nearby town after the murders. Many say she went back to Ireland for awhile, though no travel logs prove this. By 1897 she was living in Anaconda, Montana, where she married a man named John Sullivan and worked as a domestic servant for a Judge in that town. She died far from wealthy. She moved in with her niece towards the end of her life. Her niece said she left about $3000 in life savings ( equivalent to about $36,800 in today's money). Not a bad sum for 1948, and one that would be expected from a working servant, but far from mansions and riches.

@@anna4040 Very correct. Thus Lizzie would have known that Bridgett would never find the body in the guest bedroom. Bridgett used the servant stairs off the kitchen in the back.

Speaking of murderous women, Patricia Krenwinkle, who killed one of the Tate-Sebring murders, and Leslie Van Houghton (just released from prison) who stabbed to death Leo Lobianco (spg).

On another site, I heard that Bridget got some $$$ afterwards to go back to Ireland. Ahemmm......

I agree. Though as you said, we’ll never know what set her off, nor how much the people in that house knew or suspected. I think you are correct in they may have seen this coming, or at least weren’t as shocked at the occurrence, but I think we are looking more at possible collusion after the fact than conspiracy

@@bigprettyman3795 Yes, I agree. For me it's probable collusion after the fact, but not conspiracy. Because Uncle John behaved so strangely, noting too many unusually specific details on his ride back to the Bordens, and claiming to not notice a number of people in front of the house, I think he knew more than anyone else and provided himself with an alibi - just in case he needed it.

@@bigprettyman3795 This may not be of any great consequence but I just realised Lizzie had to have used one or more mirrors to check her appearance after killing Abby, and again after killing Andrew. She'd have to make sure there were no visible blood spots on her and that she appeared as she usually did. There was a mirror in the guest room in the vanity on the north wall. Most likely another in her bedroom, and perhaps one in Emma's room. But what about downstairs? She'd have to check herself in one after killing Andrew, too, before calling Bridget. It'd be interesting to know which, if any, downstairs rooms had mirrors and if there was one in the cellar (doubtful, doesn't seem to be any reason for one down there). There could have been one in the sitting room, and possibly the dining room. Any thoughts on this?

They had an icebox. Also,they didn’t have the broth for breakfast. They had oatmeal, eggs, sausage, johnnycakes and pears. So the food poising from the lamb broth is a misinformed myth.

I think anything was the culprit it was the eggs or sausage gone bad before even cooked.

@@bigprettyman3795 Oh, I fully agree that it could have been something else entirely., as I am open to other possible scenarios in this case. Especially coming from you, that have annalised this case so meticulously and objectively. I left the comment because I have observed a rise in the interest in true crime by the younger generation, who consume the modern foods full of preservatives, albeit not by choice, as everything has them, nowadays. They are also less involved in the food preparation, compared to then. The intention was to remind people out there that food back then was much more vulnerable to decay and bacterial contamination, and had to be handled in a different and more complicated manner to avoid illness and waste.

​@@bigprettyman3795the testimony I read from Brigid Sullivan. "For breakfast there was some mutton, some broth and johny cakes, coffee and cookies. The broth was mutton broth "

And you base this on what documentation? Where is a doctors report Lizzie was unstable and impressionable. Where is a letter or interview showing Emma had such hatred of Abby? In fact it’s contrary to known sources. Interviews with people who knew them said Lizzie was stubborn, socially conscious and strong willed, not impressionable. Emma was demure, introverted and quiet. Where’s the evidence beyond tv movies and bad documentaries to support any of this? Thus I must dismiss this as wild speculation, hearsay, and fiction,

Andrew didn’t have a son. It’s unsupported crap.

​@@bigprettyman3795 you sure abt that.. what abt the (bio mothers-side) "uncle"..

He did not have an illagentment son. Urban myth.

​@@BEAUTYnIQhow would that be Andrews son???

In the 1975 movie, they ate bad mutton broth that was out in the heat for several days. Eech.

Possible, but contrary to the evidence. We know she did not witness Abby’s murder, and if she was witness to Andrews murder she did a hell of an acting job and upheld her lie through several rounds of intense questioning by Knowlton without cracking. I find both hard to accept and highly unlikely. Also, we don’t have proof that the Borden’s paid for her trip home. That’s just speculation and rumor, and some even claim she never went to Ireland. We have no idea the amount of money she had saved. She could very well traveled on her own expenses. Though I believe it likely the Borden’s financed the trip if it indeed happened, we’ll never know for sure who paid for it or their motivations.

He paid for the trip, and she was well taken care of with a high standard of living. She likely did it out of fear of her father dying and her step-mother controlling the purse strings. It put her in an untenable and desperate position.

@@bigprettyman3795 come on man look at the house she bought . She was the upper class now. That's materialism and it's alive still today.

According to Bridgett’s testimony, she said she and Lizzie discussed in typical morning small talk about a sale in some fabric at a local store, and Bridgett said she responded by saying she planned to purchase a few yards.

@@bigprettyman3795 Just seems to me one more attempt to get Bridget away, if possible. Could even underline premeditation. Excellent breakdown of this case!

She did. It was between the murders time frame. She wanted Bridget gone so she could be alone with her father

You state that as a fact. No evidence whatsoever.

Unsupportable diagnosis with zero evidence. Pure unsupported speculation. You are correct in dismissing it,

No evidence nor indication of a cover up whatsoever.

@@bigprettyman3795 Someone had to have a clue about this in the house. You don't get two murders in a small house at least an hour apart and not know anything about this. It's so odd. That's why this story is so interesting.

As I talked about in this video, Only Lizzie and Bridgett were around, and Bridgett was outside for Abby’s Murder, and wasn’t allowed in the upstairs bedrooms, said that in her testimony. And of course, Lizzie knew that. With Andrew, she knew his routine of taking a nap before dinner. Now if Bridgett took the same siesta before lunch as part of her regular routine then that answers it all. If I could ask Bridgett any question, it would be that; 'Did you take a short nap like you did that day on a regular and routine basis?" It would answer most of my questions on Lizzie MO on this murder.

Thank you very much. See my first video. All available evidence from that day and its timeline show that she almost definitely did it alone, and I showed how it was very possible.

There is no one else could have committed this crime but Lizzy. She was the only one in the house. Bridget was outside. She would have seen an intruder.

Interesting you ask that as I just read an article about it. At that time birthing was the domain of midwives. Mostly for that propriety issue, but it was in this late period that the professional male doctor began exerting more intimate control.

Need not be much of a blood trail. They did have running water in the basement, and I worked as a nurse for years. Blood, if not dry, washed off skin quite easily. Never had an issue.

Also, re-watch the whole of my videos. The police did not examine her. Such things were not done to a Victorian lady of 1892. So blood could easily not be seen.

No evidence of such abuse, and this speculation wasn’t proposed until the late 70’s and 80’s, when the church molestation charges and missing children became hot topics. Throughout the last 130 years Lizzie Borden has become a blank slate for every social and feminist issue. None reflect the real Lizzie Borden or her motives.

the m@nner of the murders, it's person@l. it's very person@l. nothing w@s stolen. reg@rding sexu@l @buse, & murders, the mother @lw@ys gets it worse. well, this mom got more w@cks. she @lso got it first. like, she's the m@in one lizzie w@nted to get @t. & d@d got it b/c he w@s the @buser. mom didn't protect them. the sisters m@y h@ve considered themselves...d@m@ged goods, which could be why they wouldn't m@rry. then it would be exposed. i'm t@king this info. from other c@ses i've looked @t.

No will. Why do it? Because her father was elderly and no will. He was about to turn 70 and at that time most men died in their 60’s. She knew he was on borrowed time and by law his money would be controlled by her step-mother, for whom both didn’t get along. She’d be dependent on her, as a woman of her social rank wouldn’t work. And what could she do? Become seamstress or a maid to wealthy friends? The step-mother had to go, and it seems in her impulsive kill she knew her would know she did it, so rather than face him and be disowned and possibly gang, she killed him too.

She did not have time for all that.

No economic forensics evidence of a paid hitman. A paid hitman would use a gun not an axe or iron, no evidence of Bridgette’s involvement or a possible motive, According to blood evidence Abby was alive when Bridgette went out, and the so-called man lurking outside was a rumor from decades later. This is all blind speculation without a leg to stand on. Try again and base it on something within the evidence or it’s speculative fiction.

Interesting theory and possible, but no evidence. I can see that collusion with Emma , but I honestly don’t think from her testimony and actions that Bridgett had a thing to do with it. Lizzie seems to have made sure Bridgett wouldn’t find the body. In fact from the transcripts and statements from her later Montana family it seems that Bridgett was severely traumatized by seeing and finding the body that affected her the rest of her life. I think the sending her to Ireland was more compassionate than cover up. With Lizzie found innocent I think they feared that being Irish they may try to accuse her as a scapegoat and condolence prize.as by Bridgett’s own statement the 3 women liked each other, and I think they paid for her to go home to protect her. Think that makes more sense.

Very true.

There was no Will and he never had a Will. That’s in the testimony of his accountant.

Fake story. Lizzie didn’t have pigeons. Truth is they got in his barn and was shitting on his hay. So he killed him. The rest of that story is urban legend gossip that’s pure fiction.

Why he needed hay I still don’t know. Lol

@@bigprettyman3795 wasnt the hay for the horse he used to have to pull the carriged that was abandoned in the lower part of the barn?

That’s probably why. Makes sense.

No. That an urban myth. When she died she had the modest savings of a maid.

What’s your documentation? An arrest? A complaint? No. Nothing documented except the painting incident after the murders, and even that’s ambiguous.because William was not his son. Plenty of research has shown that. Even if he were, the scenario of him coming to the house at 9am on a busy sunny Thursday with 3 people home, killing Abby, waiting in the house and the killing Andrew and doing this and escaping escaping unseen by Bridget, Lizzie and the neighbors is a ridiculous theory. That’s why I don’t speak of him. He’s of zero consequence.

Interesting you said that, as I’m planning to do just such an experiment. I’ll post it when I’m done.

@@bigprettyman3795 cool

It's not just about gender, socioeconomic status was part of the mix. The Bordens were not only respected members of the middle (upper-middle?) class. Lizzie's family was part of a larger well- off, well-known clan in Fall River.

If she did, where was this blood-covered day dress? Police didn’t find it. And she she had only minutes to Chuck it out.

That’s not belief that’s actually stated in her testimony and in the transcripts. She didn’t attend the upstairs rooms. That limit was common for servants of the time.

According to her testimony, 2 years and 10 months

I never said a word about a cellar.

A very good question. I’ve heard such a fishing trip was happening with either the church or one of the institutions Lizzie participated, but forget the details.

True on Uncle John as far as we know. Though little proof they did or didn’t know of his visit, and the conspiracy could just be Emma leaving town to be out of the slaughter. Or Emma knew nothing and Lizzie used it as her que to act. Either is possible. In truth we have reports that she was somewhat agitated when Bridget came down. She sent her immediately across the street. Remember it took her less than a minute to hack him to death. She wasn’t cutting up a tree for winter firewood. Thus she had another 10-15 mins to place the coat, wash her hands and face then call to Bridgett. No reason she would be out of breath. I have little to no doubt she did it. In truth, according to the timeline and the fact she STAYED IN THE HOUSE ALONE not knowing if the killer was still there and acting as though she knew was in no danger all point to only one logical conclusion: Lizzie Borden killed her parents, and under these circumstances, is the only one who could have done so.

well she was obviously in need of a drug to settle her down

@@Billygoatsgrruff a common practice at the time. They believed women had sensitive nerves and prescribed morphine, cocaine and laudanum( opium extracts in alcohol) for everything from headaches to ‘hysterics’. You could buy it like Tylenol in the drug stores.

​@@bigprettyman3795 . uou forgot heroin.. . also drank alcohol a lot ! it kept water safer .. bacteria/virus/parasite free hah.

See my first video on the subject. I speculated the same thing.

Completely agree. They tried her based on the burnt dress and the defense kicked that out thoroughly. With her inquest transcript ruled inadmissible and no forensic evidence she had to be found not guilty.

Could LB have been guilty today because of being criminally insane?

No. She was accused of stealing two small paintings after she had gifted them to a friend and the receiver took one back to the shop for repairs. The store said they hadn’t been purchased, but Lizzie claimed she had paid for them. The charges were dropped. Whether it was shoplifting or the stores clerical error is unknown. This is the source of the rumor she was a shoplifter. There is no other evidence she was a shoplifter.

No. The maid, Lizzie were home and Mr Borden and Uncle John left around the same time around 8am The blood evidence showed Mrs Borden died around 9-9:30am.

No evidence she was lesbian, that’s modern speculation with no base of truth. See my 3rd video.

I wasn't intmating she as a lesbian, just that that was a theory for the total split in their relationship. My point was that there must have been some major revelation or circumstance to cause Emma to sever ties so completely. I was speculating that that something might have been Emma discovering Lizzys guilt though irrefutable evidence or confession.

No evidence. Her doctor never made any such statement in his testimony.

John Morse had 0 motive, no history of violence, and died a financially comfortable man. Remembering a badge number doesn’t really constitute a memory. He had nothing to do with it

What you’ve claimed here has no evidence, goes against the known facts and timeline. It’s groundless speculations that must be dismissed. It’s worthy only of this response.

You’ll live.

@@bigprettyman3795 lol stopp.. btw surprised by the name.. l was married to a BPM myself for just over 2O years.. he was soo Handsome.. just Magnificent.. (and l told him that every. day.) he passed recently.. but #whataman.

I’m so sorry for your loss.

I disagree; I find a thief far worse than a meat-eating farmer or hunter.l. I worked in a slaughter house and have ‘ murdered’ animals by the multiple thousands, didn’t make me murder people. Also, people commonly raised, slaughtered and ate pigeons back then. They were considered a delicacy. Lizzie wasn’t a shoplifter, that’s a myth . Andrew wasn’t a miser nor skinflint. That’s a myth. See my other videos

@@bigprettyman3795 Yeah well you know what? Hmmm,the J.T.R. murders in 1888 weren't really ever solved either & then this happens ? Seems suspect to me, maybe same killer/s involved? Maybe someone like Eugene Victor Toombs, 🤔 hmmm? Think that,s the name haven't watched those X-FILES episodes in a long while. Someone like that maybe or maybe it,s not even human/oid at all , perhaps a shapeless entity that feeds on terror, fear emotion that assumes a human/oid shape to KILL!! REDJACK, REDJACK REDJACK !!! No worries, just having fun. Lol 😂.

The Jack the Ripper murders were 4 years apart, in different countries and have completely different methods, weapons and motives. They have no relation whatsoever. The rest is not worthy of commentary.

Yes

No