I like to think both accounts of the Blue Wizards are true -- they indeed contested the powers of the East and helped ensure victory for the West, but over time those secret, magic cults Tolkien spoke of in earlier drafts arose long after the War of the Ring, from men who may have worshiped them or their powers. Considering how Middle Earth mythology is supposed to be analogous to our real world history, I also like to think this provides an in-lore explanation to the origins of 'exotic' Eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism.
I always thought it'd be nice for someone to do a kind of Central-Eastern Asian LOTR episode (novel, whatever) that fills in what was going on in the East -- Sauron goes there, so does Aragorn, too, I believe. I think all of the Istari other than Radagast are known to have spent time there. Plenty of "primary world" models for all aspects of a Tolkienized world made from non-Norse sources -- in fact, the Vikings penetrated into what later became Russia, even down to Byzantium (which I always took to be Gondorish, with Minas Tirith starring as Constantinople).
I always thought it'd be nice for someone to do a kind of Central-Eastern Asian LOTR episode (novel, whatever) that fills in what was going on in the East -- Sauron goes there, so does Aragorn, too, I believe. I think all of the Istari other than Radagast are known to have spent time there. Plenty of "primary world" models for all aspects of a Tolkienized world made from non-Norse sources -- in fact, the Vikings penetrated into what later became Russia, even down to Byzantium (which I always took to be Gondorish, with Minas Tirith starring as Constantinople).
awakened_link well seeing how tgere are two of them i want to believe that one of them failed and strayed from his path to where he put into place evil magic cults, and the other succeeded in their mission where he was a key asset in helping the eastern people, but then you have to tackle the fact that there would sorta need to be a falling out between the two which is kinda uncharacteristic but its all my head canon anyway so...
I always found it interesting how Tolkien told a story that simultaneously viewed both Olde Beliefs and cultures and more modern ones. You can see many influences for the different Races, Regional cultures, and beings (the Istari are a fantastic example of this blending) throughout his works.
One thing you forgot to mention about saruman (and most forget to mention because it is barely mentioned and a bit obscure) is that Saruman made and wore a Lesser ring openly by the time he traps Gandalf. Gandalf says "he had a ring on his finger" in the council of elrond. He had gathered together just enough info on sauron's and celebrimbors designs and methods or perhaps he found a lesser ring (of which we don't know how many they were and what small gifts of power they would have given) and used it as a blue print. He does call him self "Saruman, ring maker". Or he may received some instruction from sauron or peiced the rest together himself, having been taught by the same Valar smith God. Anyways it doesn't have much to do with the story but it's cool. Whatever powers, influence or stat boost his lesser ring would have given him also would have been destroyed as the ring would still have used the same fundamental design of sauron's rings and so been bound to the one just like the others. Perhaps Saruman even tried to do the same as Sauron and put a portion of his power into his lesser ring to make it more potent, which would explain why he is near powerless at the end, even with his staff gone. His power would have died with his ring. Anyways. Just a theory. But hope that info helps
I read LotR over 30 years ago and I re-read the trilogy at least once a year and I'm always impressed by someone who takes the time to study Tolkien's works like you have. Good job my friend, thank you for these excellent videos.
its funny, if the things said in these videos are canon, then most of the crap that happens that involved saruman, is because he is a whiny ass that thinks he should be above Gandalf, while Gandalf just wants to do what he is supposed to do. so lots of bad crap happens because Saruman is a whiny baby
Also, I think Tolkien was kind of obsessed with the great falling prey to pride and greed, because that's why Melkor fell. But this could just be his whole biblical theme.
Tolkien fought in the first world war, which was the result of great and powerful nations/empires desiring more power over their rivals and thus developing great pride which when challenged led to terrible warfare. thus, like real world nations, powerful people in his lore feel to evil through pride and lust for power. Tolkien liked to base alot of his works on real life experiences, which is why the lord of the rings saga is a giant reference to WW1
+Stoney Lonsome I don't remember where I read this but my understanding is that Tolkien drew the attraction to the Ring as the attraction people have to heroin. Heroin was just getting started as a popular recreational drug causing users to quickly become obsessed to it in the way we see Gollum obsessed with the Ring. Thoughts?
The name of Gandalf, as well as the names of the thirteen Dwarves in the Hobbit, are all derived from the Poetic Edda by the Icelandic writer Snorri Sturluson. There is literally a chapter in that book which states a list of dwarvish names, among which we find for example names like Oin or names of other famous dwarves like Balin.
8 лет назад
+TheStormLander Yeah, isn't it called something like Voluspa? I had read that Balin's name came from there and I knew Gandalf's did but I don't know many other names from it; not being well versed in my Scandinavian Epic literature. :P
Arachîr Galudirithon Tolkien, among some others, was member of a certain club which interested themselves for the Old Norse literature. When you read the lines in the Voluspa ( It was indeed the Voluspa, I checked it ) you can see that he took almost all of his dwarven names from a single list. Very few of the Dwarven names were actaully inventred by Tolkien himself I think ( think more exquisite names like Bombur )
Radius is the distance from the centre to the edge of a circle; diameter is the distance from one edge to the opposite edge passing through the centre. Thus the diameter is twice the radius.
I'm a little surprised you left out a couple of interesting things mentioned about Gandalf (Olorin in this case) from his time in Valinor. The first being how he would go around unclothed in flesh among the elves, and how when he was around they would suddenly be struck by inspiring visions or thoughts...making him seem a bit like a muse. That fits also with his time in Minas Tirith, when the shadow of the Nazgul fell upon the city. Gandalf went from place to place, and as he did, the shadow of fear would depart from the people. The other truly interesting bit in my opinion was that Gandalf spent a lot of time in the Halls of Mandos with Mandos' wife as she comforted the spirits of Men and Elves while they awaited the next stage of their existence. You covered the part about the Elves, but the spirits of Men were there too (although for a much shorter period of time), until their spirits left the Earthly realm. While I don't believe Tolkien ever said it specifically, it's certainly implied that their spirits eventually traveled to Eru's realm...basically Heaven. Anyway, it's stated that it was here that Gandalf came to a greater understanding of things like empathy and compassion (not like he was lacking in them before), and honed his skills in comforting and inspiring others, even when they were greatly troubled.
(i)What about Radagast's possible role as intelligence service? Look at what Sauron does with animal spies... (ii)When Saruman is slain, a mist elevates from his body and seem to float towards West, but is then dissipated, so a return to Valinor seems excluded. (iii)In The Hobbit, the eagles come to Gandalf's rescue, and state that they have a debt towards him for curing one of them (I believe Gwaihir himself) from an arrow wound. Also, They have a role as Manwë's sentinelles an thus cannot live their post without exposing Valinor, so deploying them is risky.
Brilliant post. Clear, detailed and well argued w/o the usual youtube gimmicks. Many thanks for your work, i will be binge watching this weekend before starting silmarillion again.
It's also interesting to note that between TA 2759 and TA 2941, he actually searched the Anduin, and found Isildur's Jewel, the Elendilimir (probably spelled wrong) and his *bones*. And that he 'defiled' them. Also, the main reason why the Istari could not face Sauron, is because too much destruction would be caused. It would be another War of Wrath, just not involving entire armies, but 6 divine beings, and maybe the Balrog might be awoken by all of this, and join the fray. And the Valar don't want to cause another War of Wrath, so thar's why they withdrew the Istari's powers by giving them those bodies. They are there to counsel, not cause chaos.
Tolkien never said, that Curumo was of the highest rank in Valinor. As you may recall, Saruman was the head of the White Council self-appointed, he took that honour usurpatorly. It was the very Cirdan, that saw "the strongest spirit" within Gandalf. That is the written proof who was the strongest of wizards indeed. And for more -there's a letter, in which Tolkien himself, asks a curious question concerning "weakest of Istari" - Alatar and Pallando. He does ask whether or not were they the weakest of them all indeed...
i like to think that Radagast was sent for a different reason: he saw that the war was doing to nature and thought that if the light wins but nature is destroyed then victory is pointless because you can win a war but you can't win extinction.
That sounds like the right track. After all this was not just a fight with Sauron. There were other dark forces created by Morgoth. Specifically I am thinking of Ungolant, who was a ally of Sauron, but not a creature of Sauron. Like Ungolant these dark creatures or forces were in their own war that overlapped but was not of the war with Sauron. In that context one could write a epic tale where Radgast is the central wizard & Gandalf & the others minor characters that have something to do with vaguely defined Elves, Orcs, and Men.
That was hinted at in the LOTRs books. They wandered off to The Old Forest, which was once directly connected to Fangorn. So, if anyone knows what happened to them, it was Bombadil himself.
I think many felt the same on these matters. But in one of his letters Tolkien sort of damned Radagast saying that he failed his mission. I think that is why PJ decided to depict him as he did.
These are fantastic. Keep them coming. You have a great voice and your knowledge and passion of the subject matter are evident. I'm looking forward to your future lore videos!
8 лет назад
Thank you very much sir! I hope that with each video they become more enjoyable. :-)
Brilliant talk as ever. Lovely the way you expand on what Professor Tolkien referred to as "unexplained vistas". e.g. the section on Saruman's putative finding of Isildur's body and the Eagles' NOT flying to Mount Doom with the Ring.
Perhaps they didn't like each other's driving... Saruman: 'Deer on the road or not, that's the last time you EVER take the wheel on this trip, Radagast the Fool!' Radagast: 'But it was a doe, Saruman! A DOE!' Pallando: 'At least Gandalf's driving here on in. Speaking of which, there's a Balrog coming up behind us.' Gandalf: 'YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!' Alatar: 'Anyone want to switch seats?'
No, Eru Illuvatar is God and I think Tolkien as a very devout catholic wanted to give God his own deserving place amongst his personal mythology. Tom might be Tolkien himself, but Eru Illuvatar is definitely God.
Hey Galu, as usual excellent video. I know this video is quite old but i am going through your Lore of Middle earth playlist and only now did i had time to see/listen to this particular episode. Coincidentally I am re-reading the LOTR book and i had just finished chapter 7, which is "In the house of Tom Bombadil" and i just have to say your theory about him is quite fascinating actually and i wholly like it. It just made me think in a totally different manner of the exchange between him and the hobbits and i have read that chapter many times. Great contribution to my literary experience, so thank you very much.
How about Tuor? Is he going to be King of Gondolin, or is it directly going to Earendil? For Elrond to be King of Gondolin, Earendil would need to die by either choosing to be a Man or be shanked by an Orc, since, you know, Earendil is the son of Tuor and Idril, Turgon's daughter.
Interesting stuff hearing the back story's of all these people ,thanks for taking the time to narrate these videos ,I 1st read LOTR during my 1st tour in Vietnam in 1966 ,I spent 4 days in a tent in Chu Lia reading the book in a damn monsoon & have loved the writings ever since ,I passed it on to another Marine just as it had been passed on to me ,it made it's rounds through the squad & kept us all sane with a single common talking point when we were in a rear area ,I rotated home in 1967 on leave & bought my new wife a copy so we would have more reasons to write each other ,when I rotated home for good after my 2nd tour in November of 1968 after seeing family I spent the next week leisurely rereading the book with my wife ,we took turns reading chapters aloud after breakfast with our morning coffee ,later in the 1970's when the PTSD set in hard from all the idiotic protesting & riots I read the book again for a 3rd time as a way to keep myself from grounding out ,then snapping & hurting somebody ,every night after work I'd have brandy or cognac while rereading a chapter or 2 over & over so I wouldn't have to think . I don't know if it's from wanting to escape hearing more about the anarchists rioting in the streets, dividing america once again over childish stupidity or what, but I find myself rereading the books again ,watching the movies when I can & now delving into the back stories & it's helped take my mind off of painful issues I've never resolved , between the wife & me we've read & collected over 2,000 books since 1963 but none have I been able to immerse myself in as I'm able to do with the LOTR books . Seeing these petulant children tear America apart causes me the great pain of memory of things I shouldn't think of ,your narrations are like zanax to me & I appreciate them greatly .
Imagine someone writing a whole new story about the blue wizards in the east. Explaining everything that went on there at the same time of the war of the rings. A whole new set of characters and adventures, explaining indeed what a great effect it did have on the ultimate victory of the free people of Middle Earth. Explaining that without the workings going on in there, Sauron would without a doubt have won. Imagine that...
I initially thought that Tom Bombadill might be the incarnation of Eru, also, but I think Tolkien himself resisted this. I think Tolkien simply added him to the story for a bit of mystery. It's definitely interesting to discuss, though. I see Tom and Goldberry as perhaps Time and Nature personified, or perhaps just the seasons. One last thing.. LOVED this video!
Tom is Aule. his wife, Goldberry is Yavanna. We should not forget that of all the Valar Aule was the one most eager to see the Children of Iluvatar. He is also the only one to make sentient, rational beings of his own. Given his interest in such creatures, it is not unreasonable to assume that, like Gandalf, he found Hobbits fascinating. As Hobbit songs about Tom Bombadil suggest, moreover, he had plenty of contact with Hobbits in Buckland and the Marish, no doubt allowing ample opportunity for Hobbit study. Perhaps he made them, as he did the dwaves.
That's an interesting thought, but it would seem that Tolkien himself would not support Tom Bombadil as Aulë. "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)." -The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954 I think it's reasonable to think that Tom Bombadil could be one the names of Aulë or another Vala, but Tolkien seems to have included Tom for some other purpose. Tolkien was a very specific and detail-oriented person, so if Tom was a name for Aulë then I think that Tolkien would have said as much. Aulë was also chiefly concerned with rocks and metals, which Tom does not seem to have any care or interest in. If Aulë were living in Middle-earth as Tom, I would think that he would want to reside close or with the Dwarves since he essentially created that race, or maybe even some of the remaining Noldor since they were some of his greatest students. As far as Goldberry as Yavanna is concerned, Tolkien seemingly suggests otherwise: "We are ... in real river-lands in autumn. Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes in such lands.." -(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 210, dated 1958).
Well, Tolkien works in two ways, as an author, and as an interpreter to his world as if it were a real history. So, in fact, Tom is a mythic figure that Tolkien discovered and loved too much to leave out. As Tolkien love mystery to keep his world interesting, he would not answer many things, but leave them up to the audience to ponder, even when there was no answer. I think He specifically said tom was not god, as that was the easiest and most common thought that was coming forth. Thus insuring more mystery. But as to what tom could be in the context of story line, there is no " Time and Nature personified" Except as Aulë and Yavanna. Yes Tolkien has said otherwise and does in the book when she is called the "River-woman's daughter". If goldberry is not Yavanna, then tom is not Aulë, as they are a bonded pair. And he also states there are things in the earth older than sauron. So there could be many pan and nymph like figures in the world of LOTR, but Tom is much more powerful than such a being. Which of course opens the door to your supposition: Tom is not ERU, but is also out of time (any incarnation of existance) and not part of the ERU pantheon.
Iawain Ben-adar or Tom Bombadill is the first of the Maiar. As he says himself Tom is eldest. He entered into middle earth before the elves awoke and has remained ever since. He was one of Yavanna's people. He is the most powerful of all the Maiar as was shown when he was unaffected by the ring. While he is interested in the peoples of middle earth he has never been involved in any of their struggles.
I really liked this video, excellent works man. Had a crazy idea towards the end of the vid, where he tells his theory that Tom Bombadil is really the embodiment of Eru Illuvitar, I never thought of it that way, but maybe this makes more sense: There was a woman there with Tom Bombadil, I quite forgot her name btw, but he loves her, and seems like they are together, well what about Manwe and Varda, the couple who sent Gandalf in the first place, that would make more sense, anyone else agree? Just an idea, just made a lotta sense tho... Anyway, keep up the good work Arachir, thx
The theories of Bombadil being Eru or Bombadil being any of the Valar are disproved. First of all, Bombadil's personality does not match that of any of the Valar. But it is also said in The Silmarillion that the Valar seldomly came to Middle-Earth, while Bombadil basically stated he always had been living in Middle-Earth. About Bombadil being Eru, Tolkien pretty much stated that there was no physical embodiment of Eru in his works. Of course, there's another thing to consider: Tolkien stated multiple times that if the Free Peoples lost against Sauron, Bombadil would fall too. Not going to happen if he would be Eru or any of the Valar.
This was very interesting and informative. Orthanc is Mount Fang or Forked Height btw, which is ironic because when I first saw it in the film, I said it looked like a fork lol. I had always loved the word Istari itself. Something rather Mystical about it I think.
Brilliant!! You truly are a wise and insightful wizard indeed!! I have just two questions. First, why would the valar dim or dilute their memories of Valinor, I mean wouldn't they want them to be armed with as much knowledge and experience as possible? And second, does the text ever say after Gandolf goes back to Valinor, does he get his power back or is he stuck in one body forever?
". . . though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness. My favorite passage out off the Silmarilion
Tolkin seems to be drawing that from the old Anglo Saxon, or Indo European pantheon. However have you read any of the literature concerning Indo European or Aryan influences on early Jewish theology?
So what lore video are you planning to do next hmmm? Are you going to do any lore videos on a specific character, or is it always going to be a general overview of a group?
8 лет назад
+Griffin Grandstaff Well the Lore Videos are to supplement the mod I lead. Once I have covered all related topics to the mod I will branch out into the deeper stuff.
The theory I commonly see about Allatar and Pallando isn't that they became Sauron's minions, but rather that they forgot their missin in favor of becoming objects of worship.
Great video again! I have a question , was Radaghast not part of the white council? You mentioned he wasn't really mentioned besides being a used by Saruman and rescuing Gandalf. Did he not take part in the restoration of Dol Guldur with the white council?
8 лет назад
+Jag S Nope and Nope. :) He doesn't affect the war of the ring in any way other than the two times mentioned in the video. He was not a council member.
Regarding your last point... Tempting explanation of Old Tom, but disproven by the Professor himself. "There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology." _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, Letter 181
Maybe I missed it ... but I don't think you mentioned how Saruman crafted his own "Ring of Power" using the lore he had dug up on the original rings forgings.
I was reading this theory that Tolkien was going to make a fourth age follow up, 400 years after LOTR, with the mouth of Sauron creating distrust between the kingdoms of men, and making cults to worship Sauron. It was also said he was going to make it a sort of quest for Avalon with Cuivienen, and that's why the blue wizards went east was to find the Avari, Aragorn does say that in the far Harad the stars are strange, and in Cuivienen the Elves were given more starlight in the darkness, but that's all bits and bobs, it was an interesting theory though.
I like it when you are first talking about how the my took form, they become weaker, like if they are Jedi whom who become one with the force become more powerful. Just seems like a role reversal
Im not sure if this book that I name is right but in the unfinished tales it says that Saruman burned isildur's body in one of his furnaces. Great video btw I really enjoyed it! I would love it to hear some of your opinions on who your favorite character in Tolkien's world. Also on your opinions on the movies, what you liked, what you didn't and just some of that :) Also could you do a lore video on dwarves, as Tolkien never really wrote in bulk on dwarves. If you could do this, it would be very cool! Again great video!
The information in the Unfinished Tales is widely regarded as canon. Also, Saruman had a secret stash of treasures that Gimli and Aragorn found out from Rohan, Gondor, the Dwarves, Elves, almost everyone, including the Elfstone and the chain that bore the One Ring on Isildur's body.
I thought it explains somewhere that Tom and Goldberry were just Maiar who decided to stay on in their realm in Middle Earth (and could not be Eru/Illuvatar). Goldberry was a Maiar of the water, and Tom of the land and trees, etc. Although this may have been speculation on the part of David Day, as I don't recall any specifics other than from his book.
I think that's a reference to his great ring, but I'm not sure. Shadowfax he met before the LOTR stuff goes down, I believe...maybe when he was seeking Gollum? Can't recall, but I'm pretty sure it's in Lotr.
The Secret Fire aka the Flame Unperishable is what is refered to as Illuvatar's ability to create life. Therefore Gandalf is saying that his actions are guided by the creator god. He then compares that to the Balrog being merely a servant of Udun aka Morgoth. Or simply put: "I follow a higher power than you".
That's the later telling of the blue wizards, the one where they came in 1600 of the 2nd age, and aided by keeping the dark lord's forces weak in the east, tho unable to find he, they did mess up his plans,
Great video! Thank you for posting. On the question of whether Tom Bombadil is Illuvitar... I am not sure if this has already been mentioned in a comment. There is a moment in the LOTR when the Council discuss what to do with the ring, and Erestor suggests giving it to Bombadil. However, Gandalf shoots down this idea on the premise that while the Ring has no power over Bombadil, Bombadil has no power over the Ring and could not destroy it. Gandalf also says that eventually the forces of evil would be able to overpower Bombadil and get the ring for Souran, though they had conquered everything else first. To me, this is a refutation of the theory that Bombadil is Illuvitar. It seems more likely that he is a very powerful Maia instead.
I favor the school who think Tom is the, or one of the, physical manifestations of the Aule. In that context the ring has no power over Bombadil because it is metal & therefore ultimately belongs to the Aule. This also places Gandalfs remark that Bombadil would only lose it in context. That is the Aule had little long term interest in such a petty thing. I have one other interpretation of my own that follows this. That is when Tom Bombadil looked at the ring the Aule changed its nature or Doomed it to find its destruction as it had been made. A Doom beyond the power of Sauron to intervene in. Thus from the moment Tom held the ring it became inevitable or near inevitable the ring would fall into the fire it had been forged in.
I've been listening to a theological analysis of Tolkien's works recently. One of the central themes that keeps coming up is that God works through others. That's the reason why the Valar don't just show up and knock Sauron on the back of the head and why Gandolf mainly sits on his power. Their purpose is to guide the children of Aule, not to take over. It's a central motif in Tolkien's works that everything is part of the purpose guiding the unfolding of Aule's plan. The destruction of the ring is the best example. It comes about as a result of the mercy shown to Gollum, first by Bilbo and later Frodo. This mercy, mixed with the corruption of the Ring, is what guides Gollum to be there when Frodo fails the mission. Evil leads to the Ring's demise and Good leads to the Ring's demise at once. So, Bombadil - even if he was God - would never think of altering the Ring because the Ring was already serving His purpose. It's part of the forces that is guiding men on their destiny, in this case the defeat of Sauron and the return of the King of Gondor.
Well, there are quotes that doesn't need any speculation. In letter 181 he stated: "There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology" - though in this case he might have been talking about the Christian God. And in letter 211 he wrote: "The One does not physically inhabit any part of Ea" - in the context of this letter I think he was talking about Eru. About the theory about Aule being Bombadil. I think their interests are too different. I think Aule would be much more likely to live amongst the Dwarves _if_ he would ever inhabit a region of Middle-Earth. While Aule was most interested in creation and crafting, Bombadil was mostly interested in leaving things be and observing them. Aule though is similar to Bombadil in the sense that he doesn't want control things, he doesn't want to dominate, only create and see what happens to it - but I don't think he would ever quit being a craftsman. While Tolkien said about Bombadil (letter 144): "and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture. Even the Elves hardly show this: they are primarily artists." You also mentioned that it was because of fact that the Ring was ultimately metal that it wouldn't have power over Aule. However, I think this is incorrect. It's not the metal of the Ring that makes people do things, but the power of Sauron in it. And this does not belong to Aule. The Ring is just a carrier. Now, another problem is that The Silmarillion doesn't support the theory of Bombadil being any Vala at all, because it states that after the Destruction of the Lamps, "the Valar came seldom over the mountains to Middle-earth". In the meantime, Bombadil states quite firmly that he had always been there, at the Old Forest. He implied to have lived in Middle-Earth forever. It's also stated - both in LotR as in Letter 144 that: "Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron." In this sense, it's really hard to see how Bombadil could be Aule, since the latter wouldn't have any trouble at all with surviving such war. As for your theory that Bombadil wasn't influenced by the Ring because it was made of metal, I'm afraid that also wrong. Again, I need to quote the Letters. This is again a quote from letter 144. "The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. but if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war." So the Ring didn't influenced Bombadil, not because of some power he possessed, but because his mindset was completely pure, not a hint of thought about controlling things or domination. In fact, it's the reason why the Hobbits are more resistant to the corruption of the One Ring than other races. They think on a much smaller scale and don't desire to rule over others as much. The one example of that was during LotR when Sam was wearing the One Ring: it filled his mind with desires of great things and great powers, but ultimately he longed for his own little garden and resist it that way. Of course, Hobbits aren't Bombadil, and their mind isn't as pure so in the end, they will succumb to desires that dwell much deeper in their minds, and desires that arose from just being a Ringbearer.
Alatar and Pallando might be a Tolkien-ian parallel to the Greek Prometheus and Epimetheus, two Titans with their minds towards the future and the past respectively (Prometheus was a master of forethought, and Epimetheus was a master of hindsight). I mention this because of your mentioning Palantir and the relation of the "Pala" root word. Definitely a stretch but could be interesting nonetheless.
I remember reading in the sixth book of the History of Middle-earth that Tolkien thought of Tom Bombadil as Aule and Goldberry as Yavanna. It's been a while since I read that but it's always changes my thinking whenever I read the sequence in The Fellowship of the Ring where Frodo visits him.
I think you've read that on the internet, because there is no quote like that in the HoME series. Tolkien always left the question of "Who is Bombadil?" open, although he did write some things that make some theories impossible. And two of those are Tom being Eru (Tolkien flat-out stated he didn't inhabit Arda physically), and Tom being a Vala (in the Silmarillion Tolkien said the Valar seldomly _came_ to Middle-Earth - and we know Bombadil _lived_ there from the beginning from his words in LotR).
Read about it in The History of Middle-earth Book 6, Return of the Shadow. It was a concept Tolkien threw around. I never remember him mentioning the possibility of Bombadil being Eru.
Leoxandar Magnus According the the Index (both of HoME VI and the general index of the entire collection), the name "Aule" doesn't appear in that particular book at all. In fact, the only time they were mentioned in the same book was in part IX. It's seperated in two parts though and Bombadil only appears in part A, while Aule only appears once in part B - seperated by hundreds of pages. And while I've read HoME and regularly use it to look things up, I have no recollection of such a quote. So I'm afraid that such information does not exist, and otherwise you have to provide the quote with some specifications where to find it (preferably chapter). True, Tolkien never mentioned the possibility of Bombadil _being_ Eru, but he straight-out said about Eru _in general_ that "The One does not physically inhabit any part of Ea." (Letter 211). With this quote it's implied that Bombadil cannot be Eru.
Leoxandar Magnus Yeah, time and the sheer amount of information you get from those books is just a recipe to get confused. Happens to me too. I would like to share with you my favourite piece of information about good old Tom. Since you've read HoME, you probably have read the Letters too (this is an extract of #144), but just in case. "I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. but if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron." Explains really well how Bombadil isn't affected by the One Ring in my opinion.
Could Saruman's "skill" etymology come from something similar to Odysseus' epithet in the Homeric poems which is "metis" or, "skilled", "clever" or polytropos, the "man of many turns" i.e. weaving a web.
The High Elves encompass the Elves who came to Valinor from Middle Earth in the First Age; the Vanyar (who stayed in Valinor and never went back, except those who fought in the War of Wrath; the Noldor (who left Valinor and sailed back to Middle Earth to wage war against Morgoth); and the Teleri (some of whom went to Valinor and stayed, and some of whom stayed in Middle Earth and refused the journey to Valinor). Olórin, I therefore believe is Quenyan, which was spoken in Valinor.
One thing you didn't talk about and what I always thought important or noteworthy is the colours of the Istari. Gandalf was grey became white, Radagast was brown and Saruman was white but became "of many colours" iirc. The other two are said to be blue, which I find somewhat interesting because no others had the same colours initially.
A couple questions that I ponder on every time I think of the Istari: What happens to Radagast after the War of the Ring (I know you said he abandoned Rhosgobel and faded from history)? I believe I read that the Istari know about 7000 spells, yet they rarely use them. Even when counseled to not use their full powers, why did Saruman not use his full potential (If he could)? What if (even though it would never happen) Gandalf and perhaps Radagast sided with Sauron? Ultimate destruction over Middle Earth? Or would Sauron see them as a threat later and kill them off? Could one of the Istari become corrupted by a ring and become a Wraith like the Nazgul? Could they rival or surpass the power of the Witch King if they took leadership of Nazgul? My favorite: What did Gandalf talk to Tom Bombadil about?
8 лет назад
+Trenton Sedlacek 1) We have no idea what happens to Radagast. Given his eternal love for nature and the possibility that he was actually sent to Middle-earth to protect nature by Yavanna (sneaky lady) and not to counter Sauron, I think it is reasonable to guess that he may well have just remained there forever, sinking into myth as the vengeance and guardian of the forests 2) I have never read any mention of an arbitrary number of spells that they knew. I suppose they didn't move around blowing things up because Saruman actually wanted to rule the world, with people in it. :P 3) Had Gandalf and Radagast fully joined with Sauron they would probably have unchecked their powers and laid waste to any who stood before them with an onslaught of magical power. Unlike Saruman, Sauron just wanted dominion of the land - the things in it were dispensable. He would likely have turned on the others once they had the world as all megalomaniacs want sole leadership. 4) No, they would be turned over to evil but they would not have become wraiths. They would easily surpass the power of the Witch-king if they had the ring on top of their powers. 5) Nobody knows. Of course I like to think that Tom was thanking Gandalf for playing out his part in his (Tom's - who I like to think of as Eru Iluvatar) plan.
After Saruman's body is destroyed he looks to valinor but is blown away by a great easterly wind. That is what Tolkien says so he was not in middle earth or valinor. The only other options are that he went to the dark lands or the new lands or that he went into the void to beg for the forgiveness of eru illuvatar or to pledge allegiance to melkor
I always thought of the Valar as Arch Angels. If you compare the general arch of Melkor into Morgoth it kinda reminds of the fall of Lucifer in bible lore type stuff.
I wrote a story about the Endless Stair B&G climb in their epic struggle years ago. It was one of those places in Tolkien's writing that automatically sparks the imagination. Gandalf's resurrection is a reference to the Resurrection. / The idea of the Istari comes from the legend of the 7 sages, repeated thru many cultures. You can see it in the name related to the goddess "Ishtar", whose traits are related to the mission of the sages. The creator god Enki sends them to Sumer to council kings and teach civilization to mankind. They appear beside and as kings on the Sumerian Kings List. They survived the flood but as mortal men and fade from legends as the Sumerian civilization did.
Tolkien wrote a note, where he suggested that the names of Alatar and Pallando were Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Both names are Quenyan. Morinehtar means ''Darkness Slayer'' [morë (mori-) “darkness” and nehtar “slayer”] and Rómestámo means ''East-helper'' or ''Helper of the East'' [rómen “east”and -stámo “helper”] Source: lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Pallando lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Alatar www.elfdict.com/
8 лет назад
+QuantumFlux_ Thank you very much, I did not know that. :) After my first few Lore Videos I opted to use only the books as sources but sadly I haven't any copies of his later letters.
+Arachîr Galudirithon Well, I didn't know that either, but after watching the video I got curious so I looked it up. Thank YOU and the whole DaC Team for creating such a great Submod and I can't wait to see a new Lore Video. Keep up the good work! (:
+Arachîr Galudirithon Wanted to say that. His later letters also say that the blue wizards, like Gandalf, didn't fail in their mission. Their mission being to disrupt Sauron's plans in the east.
these are great, I have just started re-reading LOTR, and before I did I wanted to read the Silmarillion, but really struggled with it. these lore videos really help when reading LOTR to understand the huge backstory, and gives insight to characters and motivations.
Very good narrative. I'd made lots of similar assumptions about the books. I also like to believe the blue wizards we're doing good in the far east to counteract Sauron's influence on the Easterlings. I liked to imagine that Tom Bombadil was the keeper of the old forest because it was possibly the resting place of the sleeping entings and ent wives.
7 лет назад
The entwives, I am sorry to say, were killed by Sauron. To the south west of Rhovanion is a place called 'the brown lands'. This used to be verdant forests and it is where the entwives made their home. Sauron burnt it to the ground, entwives along with it.
+Arachîr Galudirithon At no point in any of his writing Tolkien said all the Entwives were dead. The closest account we have, letter 144, said the following. "I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin (vol. II p. 79 refers to it). They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult - unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know." This letter was a thought process. The most likely - but still not definite - answer is that they were indeed death, but in the end even Tolkien didn't know.
you cast over the quest for Erebor in respect to Gandalf but Gandalf engineered the quest to a small degree in an attempt to stop Smaug allying with Sauron
I find the criticism of Radagast as a failure was a bit unfair. He, perhaps accidentally, went right to the area where his ability and connection to nature were most crucial. From his position Radagast was exactly the eyes and ears Gandalf and Galadriel needed. He went right to where the ring was lost and found again. Where it passed through after it was found in a cave(or stolen, *gollum*). Where Sauron was hiding and biding his time. He was right in the middle of the action with all the tools to monitor it. And Gandalf was there to get that information and process it, as Saruman was really intended to. In his failure he was the better Istari than Saruman in the end.
