Imagine being a soldier, going through all the physical and psychological trauma, possibly being on the verge of suicide, and then being told none of it was real.
@@Zxook I don’t think you understand at all. People with PTSD combat mentally all the time and to say that it isn’t real, considering how they are fighting the easy way out (killing themselves), isn’t hurting his feelings. It’s saying none of his comrades deaths are real, don’t matter, and have mo real impact.
@@mukarrabali that doesn’t mean the patient’s rights should be violated. Hell I have PTSD, if someone told me my trauma wasn’t real yes I would be upset, maybe have an episode, but I would remove myself from such a case because obviously I wouldn’t be able to act in the person’s best interest. Now I’m not a doctor or anything and don’t wanna pretend I know what this character is going through but there’s a difference between an explanation and an excuse. His PTSD is an explanation for his behaviour, not an excuse.
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@Varad Patil that's not a boneappletea that's just a misspelling of a word. Plus, given psycho doesn't pronounce half of its letters, that's rather understandable. But anyway, boneappletea would be a phrase rather than a word. Hence, "bon appétit" becomes "bone apple tea"
I would have told the guy, "If you think you are in a simulation have you ever considered the possibility that the real world could be a hell of a lot worse and that's why you are in the simulation in the first place."
That's actually about the first thing I thought when watching it. I get why someone in this guy's shoes who also wants to break free would be boundlessly curious to get a glimpseof the "real world," but... yeah.
Not really how psychosis or delusion works though, people trying to prove me wrong, insult me or break apart what I believed only pushed me further into delusion. The only thing that brings you out of it is either episodes naturally passing or being medicated (at least in my case). Nothing you could possibly say will ever make true impact
Now, imagine that this guy will be miserable for the rest of his life, since he now thinks it's not possible anymore to come to the real world. That's condemning him to unhappiness. Maybe it would have been more humane to let him die. This scenario is comparable with the scenario of successfully convincing Christians that there is no heaven (without convincing them that there's no hell)
this doctor is cranking me up every time with his expressions xD. it is like he became a doctor to help people with physical illnesses but he keeps getting the mental ones and he just boils up becuase they refuse treatment
He's right, it's not real. However, it's not a computer simulation, it's a TV show and none of them are aware that all their lives were written and there are actors playing them.
I heard a story were a guy imagined 10 years of his life because someone punched him in the head. After that he spent 3 years in a psychiatric hospital because he keept seeing the faces of his imaginary family.
Dean was absolutely in the right here. It was ridiculous (and medically irresponsible) of Dr. Charles to pretend that the patient was capable of making informed consent decisions about his health!
But he was though. He was fully aware of what was happening and the potential outcomes but didn't care because of his extreme world view. So whilst it seems crazy because the patient was clearly talking nonsense, he's technically still fully capable of making those decisions.
@@hblake5213 No I don't think so. He wasn't able to make informed decisions about his medical care. The only thing he had right was that he was dying. Doctor Charles was wrong when he said he wouldn't die if he didn't have his appendix removed. That isn't true. He had sepsis and would have died from that quickly. His delusions or beliefs may have become more fixed because he was very medically unwell.
@@cleothedeathmunchkin8111Well its not the appendicitis itself that causes death. Its the appendix being rotten which causes a serious infection that poisons the whole system and the person dies from sepsis. So when people have sepsis, they run an exceptionally high temperature which can cause delusions. My appendix was leaking over a period of time and I didn't know. It wasn't until I was very ill that they rushed me to hospital and by then I didn't believe them but my blood tests showed my system was poisoned and they had to do emergency surgery. I was very reluctant despite not being able to walk without exceptional pain. I still wanted to go home and was embarrassed by all of the fuss. My lips even cracked within an hour of being there. Thankfully a friend came and took me outside for a cigarette. I calmed down and they did the operation. I was too sick to know what the heck was happening. My friend said I rang her and said I would be home soon. Afterwards my mother kept saying I nearly died. It was difficult for me to understand because my perceptions were so altered. There is nothing ethical about putting someone who is dying from an easily treated illness, to make life or death decisions when their thinking is disordered and confused from the illness they have? As I am today, I would have the operation in a flash. Of course I don't want to die. I was too sick on the day to decide.
@@cleothedeathmunchkin8111 So what I am saying is that there is no way either doctor can decide what is causing the man to have the beliefs he has. It could be physical, mental health related or his normal beliefs. Neither tried to find his next of kin to find out whether what he is saying is unusual for him or whether he has been acting differently for a while or has been diagnosed with a mental health problem. The reason I would query his ability to give informed consent is because a way of telling if someone is capable of that is that the doctor has to explain what is wrong, then explain the options for treatment and what will happen if the man has the treatment and what will happen if he doesn't e.g he will die from sepsis. Then the person has to be able to repeat back to the doctor, what he has heard him say. If he can't then they need to do more testing to check his competency. That is very different to someone being able to state everything the doctor says and then saying that their belief/religion states that god will save them or they want to die so they can meet their god. As long as the person can state that they understand what they have been clearly told, then that's one step in knowing they can give informed consent.
If I had been there, I would have asked him about the simulation, come at it from the point of view of a playable character who isn't aware they are in a simulation. That way you might get more information out of him because he would be eager to break another person out of the simulation.
I don't think there's any hope of reaching out to people like Neil at all. They're totally mired in their own beliefs to the point where they want to prove that they're right, no matter the cost to themselves or to the people that love them. I get that Dr Archer saved Neil's life by removing his appendix, but he was entirely committed to his own cause, and nothing was going to deter him from abandoning his rather questionable perception of the world. After all, there's an old saying, "The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
@@JixieDyeAuthor I feel like you could act differently and convince him that the pill worked and he has been reborn into "another world"but everything looks the same, and convince him that now if he dies, he will die "for real"
We might actually be in a simulation, but that doesn't mean things in this world don't matter. We still experience things, it is still important to be kind to other people and to be able to function in whatever reality we find ourselves in. Is it possible to live esoterically and also live in the world without being a jerk? I think so.
If everything we experience is a simulation, and it took 100,000 years of civilisation development for us to even begin to notice, then what difference does it ultimately make to us as individuals? Such is the question of the cave.
@@LyingTube don't doubt your importance in existence, even if we're living in a simulation. Your consciousness here in this reality may correspond with a consciousness that exists simultaneously on another plane. You and I are 3 dimensional beings stretched out over a 4th dimension, time; but may correspond with larger/more complex beings that exist in 5d or higher dimensional space. The trick is being able to explore and imagine these ideas while still being able to feed and clothe yourself, get out of bed each day, go to work and maintain healthy relationships. You can make a difference to yourself within your own life; like if you start working out multiple times a week then eventually you'll be in better shape. Maybe this means a 5d you also got psychically stronger, or that you'll pass an existential trial post-death in seven dimensions because you're a little more disciplined. Maybe we go nowhere and cease to exist when we die - in the meantime I both conceptualize and act towards a better tomorrow for me and the people around me.
this man gave him a whole ptsd description of war and the guy replied with "yeah man, we all had at least one match with a noob team so i guess gg next time "
Okay I just want to say I'm on Dean's side 100% with this, I had sepsis (strep/staph) and it makes you delirious, delusional, and hallucinate. I had synesthesia symptoms as well, just felt like an acid trip. I imagine that if someone is has an altered mental state and is I'll regardless of how much they fight you eventually have to push on and do what needs to be done. Cool moral episode
Unfortunately it's not that obvious because of the laws. When I was trained to be a carer, a lawyer/psychologist told us that always keep in mind, every person has the right to make bad decisions, no matter how demented they are. But I hope if I get into a situation like that ever, someone will use common sense and saves my life.
@@Shaara1 The person has to be competent or have capacity to make informed decisions which clearly this person didn't and because he didn't have an advanced directive stating what should happen if he was deemed to not have capacity, they had the right to intervene to allow for him to be able to make informed medical decisions. So if a person is brought into the ER after being in a very serious car accident and is unconscious, you don't wait until he's better miraculously to ask whether to treat him or not. Do you?
@@lulunz6809 That's an emergency situation, with an unconscious person, where one can assume would agree to a life saving procedure. Unless a guardian stops you ( eg. Jehovahs forbid blood trsnsfusion even if life saving etc...). If one is awake, you have to respect their rejection whether it's an informed good decision or not.
@@Shaara1 Only if they have the capacity to make medical decisions. My argument would be that he doesn't at that time which could be caused by the sepsis or a serious mental health issue such as Schizophrenia which can sometimes involve symptoms like a fixed beliefs despite evidence that those beliefs aren't true which can lead to serious harm to the person or someone else. I'm not talking about poor decision making. I'm talking about life or death decisions. If he dies there is no way to find out what the cause was or whether he would make a different decision. I just want to add that diagnosing Schizophrenia is much more complex than just fixed beliefs.
Dr. Charles, unfortunately, this patient's delusion is far too extreme and the treatment time for his mental health is far longer than the time it would take to treat a ruptured appendix. Also, unfortunately, he doesn't have the capacity to understand he is dying and that he needs to be treated so he won't die. He wants to 'wake up,' we can't grant him that because it won't happen, so we have to treat him against his wishes now so that he may have the capacity to make decisions later.
Exactly. He was not fit for determining his own health. It'd be like if someone was starving themselves to death because they believe that the icky cross bacteria in the food will end up invading their body and taking over.
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@@aliceramdom.s but ppl like this do exist tho, some paranoid squizofrenia patients won't even eat in the middle of an episode bc they think it's poisoned
“I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.” -Cypher
@@aliceramdom.s Duh.... but scientifically there's a legit chance of all of us living in a simulation right now. Are you happy when you go stating the obvious? I can clearly see it is a TV show. I guess Medicine, Doctors and Chicago dun exist either cuz it's just a TV show, thus nothing in it is real?
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@@KMDragonS There is actually a psychiatric illness known colloquially as the "Truman show syndrome" or "Truman show delusion" whereby the affected person feels their world is a facade/fake.
Dude I knew from school was like this. Had a kid and everything and they went off the rails. No matter how much we tried being there he just didn't think any of us were real and we all drifted apart. Few years later I hear he's taken his life. All the way to the end believing he was alone and we were constructs made to interact with him, but weren't real :(
In real life if the patient didn’t sign DAMA, DNR etc, and needed to be intubated and there’s no family or relative to make the decision will do the operation if his life is at a risk.
It’s like committing suicide in order to go to heaven. If you truly believed we’re in a simulation… why not ride out the simulation? And if you die and wake up somewhere else, then great! If it’s not real, you still experienced a great life.
I get why the other doctor was upset. It would be impossible to hear that the events that haunt your dreams at night was just part of a game. On the other hand, there are laws that prevent you from going over the patient’s wishes and finding a loophole because he was no longer physically able to talk is more than hinky. And to try to bullshit Dr. C. Charles is a doctor too and learned all the same things. You can’t bullshit the guy who deals with people putting out verbal diarrhoea every day
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He was wrong though. Doctor Charles was wrong. People can die from Appendicitis because of sepsis. They die quickly and its horrible. He could have been delusional because of the sepsis.
Okay but Dean was mostly in the right here. As a psychiatrist Charles should have realized that the patient wasn't capable of making rational decisions for himself at all. It would've taken much more time to help him make rational decisions than he actually had. The guy was literally trying to die because he completely believed that he had to die in order to live. He would never have said yes to that life-saving surgery.
@@cybersmith_videos not if he has psychiatric problems..... then familly or others decide for you, when you are in there... If he wants after this to fall off a bridge, then no problem... but the hospital and the doctors are held responsible until he walks out of that door. What if he has familly, and sues after for his death?
An interesting ethical dilemma. I'm all for choice and control (working in the disability sector) but there is also the duty of care. I think the surgeon made the right choice.
i think the ethical dilemma is a bit different. based on how these episodes are structured, i think the show was hinting that the bearded doctor did something to force the surgery (or possibly just found the patient unconcious and took advantage of the situation by getting the bag). Based on my reading, if the patient is unconcious and breathing the hospital can't assume power of attorney, nor can they resuscitate a patient that has a DNI/DNR. so i think the conflict the episode was setting up was whether it was ethical for the surgeon to lie and force teh surgery even if it saved a life
how this hospital isnt drowning in lawsuits is amazing tho They had an episode where the doctor resuscitated a DNR cancer patient and prolonged her suffering for no reason, they had an episode where a doctor illegally put a mother refusing iv on iv while she was unconcious, this... like... im serious, how any of those people still has a license and how that hospital is still operating is a miracle
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To be honest i kinda am with with Neil on this one. The patient was clearly delusional and didn't understand what was going and had no decision making capacity. dr. Charles shoukd have gotten a court order instead of trying to convince him. He clearly wasn't going to be convinced.
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They are usually more of a danger to themselves but do not need to be “locked up”…medicated,yes ,therapy and possible inpatient care yes,but locking them up like a prisoner is a bit of overkill,especially in cases like this,it’s textbook schizophrenia and as long as they are not out murdering innocent people because the voices tell them too,they don’t need to be locked up and have the key thrown away!
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I can't imagine the ad for the role of this "Stuck in a Virtual World" guy would be like, and how the audition for the role went on... The casting department must've had a ball on this one!😅
@@aliceramdom.s they are literally commenting on how they made the tv show... Besides, this has happened in real life, so there is a point to discussing what should be done in this scenario.
@@stephaniebattison2334 They may be a spam account or something. Commenting this on every other comment that even acknowledges the reality behind this episode.
I love Dr. Charles but I am a person who believes those who have mental illnesses who refuse treatment should be force treated. They aren't in their right minds so no they can't say they're making their best choices. Case in point Robyn and the rats situation (her situation was caused by a physical situation that was never investigated fixed the situation and she's good to go). This man literally believes everyone else to be an NPC in a video game scenario- we're lucky he hasn't started shooting NPCs or enjoying women GTA style against their wishes because to him NO ONE ELSE IS A HUMAN. That makes him DANGEROUS.
Lmao yaaasssss! I was waiting for this! I can just hear house now… he’s got a quirky grin on his face and he would say cool. Lol best comment here yet!
Dr Achar did something to the patient to get him unconscious, that’s unethical. Granted his intentions were to save the guy’s life but it wasn’t his decision to make. Everyone has their own beliefs whether they seem sane to others or not. If he felt that the guy was crazy he should have reached out to Goodwin. This show is full of Doctors who play by their own rules.
@@aliceramdom.s In universe obviously. And plenty of people in this supposed "real life" believe as he does. Honestly I don't think he's entirely wrong.
Here's the thing. Even if reality is more than it appears to be, "computer simulation" is just a mundane term you understand. You process the concept through the metaphor and language of a video game the same way that Plato did with shadows on a wall. But whatever there is, IF there is something, it's beyond our comprehension.
I find it more psychologically telling, not that someone believes they're in a simulation, but that they feel the need to be sure that they are. This goes for people who need to be sure they're not in a simulation too. It doesn't matter and it's non-falsifiable (you necessarily can't know), but people who think that it does matter and that you can know are showing mental instability through their need to have an answer in order to function.
Regardless if that guy delusional. patient still have the right to refuse treatment. If a family member of mine was forced treatment that doctor would be so sued by me if this was real life.
Bruh, I like Dr. Charles but honestly, he'd probably let that man die. He was clearly delusional and whatever court order they needed to perform surgery against the patients will would've probably taken too long. And ya can't treat someones mental illness if they are dead. Like what was Dr. Charles plan here? Try to reason with that man?
There are still logics in the land of illogic. Let's go down the crazy path of this fellow shall we? Assuming this is a simulation, what to say that the guy will get to experience the "real world" when he die? Does characters inside a game get to join our world when they die insetad of vanishing from existence? Moreover, wouldn't the people running the simulation want to actively remove elements that remind people they are in it? Imagine creating a realistic fps game based in WW1, and then you notice one guy on the enemy team using weapons from the 21st century? The funny part of all of this is there are people out there in the world who believe these stuffs (I.e., microchip in vaccines, 5g towers cause cancer, flat earthers, shadow goverment). What an interesting world we live in
Life isn't a computer simulations. It's a real world simulation or a real world construct. There are similarities between the two, but they are worlds apart. Everything is some kind of construct, even reality, but that doesn't make it not real; it just makes it a real construct.
If he actually is being poisoned by sepsis then he absolutely is not in is right frame of mind. He might have held that belief beforehand but a hospital can't take that chance of a lawsuit by relatives. Like trying to argue in court that he believed he was in a simulation so they couldn't treat him etc. At some point the medics would have to take the responsibility that he was being mentally affected by his ailment and was not rational enough to give instructions.
Who is the doctor with the glasses I don't usually wacth Chicago Med but. Everytime i watch it i think the doctor with the glasses is the boss? Is he the boss?
Oh... I thought when the guy pressed down on this stomach he twisted his privates! Because of when he said "I wanted to know where you're more sensitive". I totally misunderstood at first!