OK so it's kinda obvious why you think Mance Rayder isn't Arthur Dayne: you're missing a key component of the theory. Mance Rayder is also Daario Naharis and Euron Greyjoy. Obviously for this to work Dany has to be a time-travelling Shiera Seastar with amnesia and Tyrion is Gregor Clegane but those two are more-or-less accepted as canon
Surely there's no way Arthur Dayne would have risked going to winterfell during the first book if he knew Robert Baratheon, Barriston Selmy and Jamie Lanister were going to be there, like even if he was disguised they could recognise him
@@randominternetguyoffical I might be miss remembering this but didn't he also have purple eyes, I feel like someone would have noticed if mance had purple eyes
sorry but they would and they would not as well. Robert says in conversation with Cersei (or Ned, but it's Cersei I think) that he doesn't remember Lyanna's face anymore. So i totally get it that he wouldn't recognize Arthur Dayne, whom he didn't see for 15 years, who is supposedly dead, and would quite age, as Robert did during those years. And even if he hears a bell ringing, he would just think that it's just someone who looks similar because, hey, Arthur Dayne is dead.
Mance doesn’t have Dawn anymore though, which may have made all the difference (some think Arthur could see his opponent’s move ahead of time in the reflection, hence why it seems alive with light).
1. Mance Raider requesting a Great Sword to battle Jon is unusual due to the fact that Great Swords are Uncommon among the free folk. Of all the weapons Mance could have requested to use he chose a great sword. He didn't even choose to use weapons that Rattleshirt was known for weilding. That being A standard sword and Ebben's Axe. We know that George writes these stories with great detail and though he makes mistakes from time to time in consistency, when he typically puts something in the story it is there for a reason. He had Mance Raider choose a great sword to fight with (which is common among knights of great houses in the 7 kingdoms) and then had the character reminisce of how great it was to weild one again. If mance's official origin story is correct, when would he have time to become familiar with a great sword? When at the knights watch the weapon is uncommon amongst it's members and it's uncommon among the free folks. Even if Mance back story was official and he somehow was familiar what a great sword unrelated to him possibly being Arthur Dayne in disguise, why even bother addint this detail to the story if it has no importance or significance and it's not meant to be a clue of something bigger?
You can ask that for every "clue" that turns out to be nothing. We know for a fact George makes up 95% of these random details as he goes along and most are never touched on again. They are just weird world flavoring that he can choose to touch on later if he wants to.
yeah and I think the most important thing abt Mance’s choice of weapon is that he’s so much better than Jon that it’s weaknesses don’t matter. John uses a longsword and a pinewood shield, a balanced choice that should give him more speed and control than. Mance chooses a two handed greatsword, a powerful weapon with great reach, but it’s heavy and can also be hard to control. This isn’t an issue for mance, as Jon notes he’s faster than Jon with a longsword. This shows how skilled mance is, as he’s able to wield a weapon with obvious drawbacks so easily, Almost to the point where the drawbacks don’t exist. And Martin IS trying to make a greater statement here. I see mance as a really great parallel or “look into the future” for Jon. He’s a cunning and powerful leader who makes cutthroat diplomatic and tactical decisions for a pretty admirable goal. That’s literally the leader Jon is becoming, or was before his death. Mance easily outclasses and defeats him, thematically showing that for all his progress, Jon is still learning to become a formidable force like Mance. That’s how I see it anyway.
2. Alliser thorne wouldn't have went to the wall at the same time as the kIngsgaurd due to the fact that Alliser Thorn was captured during the sack of kingslanding and Ned didnt confront the kingsgaurd until months after the Sack took place. This means that both parties would have been sent to the knights watch at different times in the story. Also Alliser Thorne is stationed at castle black and the kings guard (Qhorin half hand aka Oswell whent and Mance Rayder aka Arthur Dayne) would have been stationed at The shadow tower. Due to these castles being miles apart and having to keep contact through sending ravens back and forward, it's unlikely that they would have had very much contact with each other if any at all. Also Alliser defended kings landing during the sack but that doesn't mean who was a regular at court when the kingsgaurd members would have been there. So he might not be familiar with them. House Thorne is from the crownlands yes but we don't know where and what their significance is (if any) was to the Royal family or it's court. They could have just simply been a vassal house loyal to the crown. Since house thorne is loyal to the crown then he would naturally hate Jon realizing that he is Stark and a son to a rebels of the crown that got him sent to the wall in the first place, and Arthur dayne wouldn't have employed him to help protect Jon because JON ISN'T TARG!!!!!! Jon is of Dayne blood.
If mance was Arthur Dayne you'd think Ned would comment on that fact when he discusses killing mance in book 1, even something to the effect of "serves me right for sparing him" Ned is all about honor and it wouldn't be suprising if he spared a foe, who in all fairness was upholding an oath, but he'd also take personal responsibility for all of that person's future crimes he would not go "ah that guy I let live decided to unite the wildlings to try and come south of the wall, well if he shows up I'll do something in the mean time imma talk to my tree" that isn't who he is.
You should watch the Order of the Green Hand video about this. I don't know who's right, but they make some interesting points. Basically they challenge Ned's version of the events at the Tower of Joy because 1) he recalls them during a fever dream and 2) it makes no sense for Rhaegar and Lyanna to have hidden out at the Tower of Joy.
I agree with your overall thesis, but I disagree with some of your points on Jon's swordsmanship. Jaime thinking that Arthur Dayne could take on the whole Kingsguard highlights a flaw in the way fighters are viewed/ranked. Arthur Dayne obviously COULD NOT do that, yet Jaime, an incredible fighter, thinks he could. This mirrors the way Jon thinks about Qhorin in a way that paints Jon in a positive light if anything (by comparing him to Jaime). But I think it at least shows that a young warrior, even a legendary one like Jaime, is inherently going to underrate themselves compared to a warrior that they looked up to. That being said, Qhorin probably would have killed Jon if he tried to and Jon certainly isn't on the level of someone like Arthur Dayne or the fully grown veteran warriors of the wildlings. I think Jon is good, even bordering on great, at fighting; but he is still only a teenager and there are a lot of incredible or legendary fighters out there that could fairly easily put him in his place.
Thats and interesting point that hes talking Dayne up cuz hes his hero. That could easily be true.. However I feel like there is a grain of truth there, my only evidence for this being, one of my favorite Barristan scenes where after ditching his armor tells the hound and like 3-4 other knights (in armor) that he could cut through them like a dagger through cheese... And like call me a fan boi but I believe him. Cuz like they all freeze up and don't make a move after he gives them the stare, like they appear to be (with good reason) hella afraid to fight him like even if they could win in the end. So since GRRM says that Dayne is even with prime Barristan until you give him Dawn and then he gets better, I feel like Dayne coulda killed all the remaining kingsuard plus Lauras and Kettleblack assuming he was wearing some armor and had Dawn... Its at least conceivable
@@randominternetguyoffical I think Jamie was obviously exaggerating for dramatic effect. The point is that the Kings guard of old that he was indicted into was composed of legendary fighters whose abilities far outstripped his own at the time. This group of glorified hedge knights he's speaking to are a cruel joke in comparison. Let's also not forget that the whole reason Jamie was put on the kingsguard was a punishment aimed at Tywin. Jamie definitely struggled with imposter syndrome following that.
You're not focused on the right combats. Yes, Martin shows us Arthur Dayne crushing Jon Snow (who was practicing fencing every day for many months), but much more importantly we are told he became King in the North by defeating the hand-picked champion and/or chief of at least three groups of wildlings in single combat using his two-handed sword. That's how we know he is an incredible swordsman for a man in his fifties. The other thing that I didn't get time to get into in my post to part I is that Mance Rayder and Arthur Dayne share exceptional diplomatic skills. Arthur Dayne managed to turn the folk of the Kingswood against the Kingswood Brotherhood in a master stroke of diplomacy, according to Jamie. Mance Rayder managed to unify the wildling tribes for the first time in more than 100 years. This is why Rhaegar appointed for him the secret mission of going north and uniting the wildlings to bring them south of the wall (to keep them from making the army of the dead too large to defeat) after protecting Lyanna and getting the baby to safety with the Starks. As I explained in my post to the first video, there are two huge reasons why Mance Rayder is so kind, protective, and trusting of Jon Snow. First, he is actually his grandfather. Second, Rhaegar made him swear to do this! As to his trips south of the Wall, they were either to meet secretly with Wyman Manderly or Ned Stark or both. Keep in mind that Wyman Manderly was building a secret fleet of ships for Ned and that Ned tells others that the North has nothing to fear from Mance Rayder, which really doesn't sound like Ned. But he says that. One possibility is that the secret fleet was going to bring the Wildlings south of the wall at the right time, a plan which was ruined when Joffrey killed Ned. Also, note that Ned did not really object to Jon joining the Night's Watch. While this is a Stark tradition, this makes even more sense if Ned knew that it was Rhaegar's plan all along for Jon to join the Night's Watch and bring the wildlings south of the Wall, based on prophecy and Rhaegar's dragon dreams.
Doesn't Jon describe the Halfhand as having a "straight back, despite his years"? Or something like that, it's been a while since I read the books, but it seems like that was in there about the Halfhand. But I think he lost half his hand to frostbite, didn't he? Or am I remembering something else?
In the books a wildling axe took of his hand. Then apparently he learned to fight better with his left and became hanlfhand good, as opposed to full hand mediocre lol The straight back for his age comment is kinda a double edged sword.. or maybe like a hiltless sword.. or like holding a sword backwards..? Idk a good analogy The problem with it is that if he was Whent, then, he wouldn't be old (or losing his hand lol). So it only makes sense if he's a different older guy. Lotta mess wrapped up in interpretations without context, certainly a weak point of the theory. To me chartable age really is the clincher here, Whent is too young (and dead) Halfhand is too old (and until recently not dead)
@@randominternetguyoffical I like listening to Order of the Green Hand, but they think everything is a conspiracy. Almost as bad as Preston Jacobs, and in some cases, worse
@@dennisyoungblood2257 Even tho i disagree I really enjoy their content myself, I listened to a lot while I looked at this theory. So you're gonna think I'm a real tinfoiler but Preston Jacobs is imo, the only half way accurate theorist out there. Before you write him off I would read all the GRRM Thousand Worlds books (im gonna try to do a video on these actually) I was reading some before watching his channel but after I read them all, I started to gain a whole different insight to GRRM as a writer. PJ also draws from the text, which is the best way to do it imo. Like a bit of his stuff requires a reach that I think is unbackupable but feel like most people write him off cuz he doesn't believe in magic and instead believes in genetics, but if you know George at all you know he keeps to his own wheelhouse and in that wheelhouse everything, like everything is genetics. All "magic" of any kid is all his other works are genetically based powers. A side note and part of what I want to video about, GRRM never finished the thousand worlds stories. He wrote a whole bunch of books that were kinda sorta culminating in this book called Avalon and then he stopped... apparently that shit is still sitting in his house, never to be touched... Sound familiar? Like a certain series that's currently on hold, indefinitely.. lol The Dunk and Egg books, half finished, but been in the works forever, ASOIAF, 3/4s finished, been in the works forever, 1000 Worlds Sagas, 5/6s(?) finished or something like that, literally chillin in the never to be touched pile... GRRM has a chronic can't finish shit problem. Personally I blame the Armageddon Rag...
I can't understand why the Green Hand thinks that Oswell Whent is Qhorin Halfhand, but I sure think Gerold Hightower is Qhorin Halfhand. It is cannonical that Gerold had a grievous hand injury from an arrow fighting in the Kingswood. I quote from the wiki here: "Around 280 AC/281 AC, Gerold was shot through the hand by Ulmer, an outlaw of the Kingswood Brotherhood, who went on to steal a kiss and some jewels from Princess Elia Martell of Dorne.[10]" You emphasize in the first video that there are many men throughout Westeros who are great fighters with a two-handed sword, which is no doubt true. But how many men are there who lose half a hand and retain the ability to be world-class warriors??? As far as I can tell, only Gerold Dayne and Qhorin Halfhand. Now we are not literally told that Gerold lost several fingers from his hand being shot through with an arrow, but in my view that's because Martin considers it too obvious if he comes out adds that part. He leaves it for us to do the math that having your hand shot through with an arrow might lead you to lose several fingers. Also, Qhorin = Corin which means spear in one language, and Gerold = spear in German, and both Qhorin and Gerold are described as being tall and holding upright postures. In part one, you argue that everything about all three of them is a pyramid with Mance = Arthur at its base. That was my initial reaction to the Order of the Green hand theory when I saw it on RU-vid five or six years ago. But later when I was reading about Gerold HIghtower and read that he suffered a grievous hand wound, that's when I said there is too much here for there to be coincidence and Whent (haha) back and looked at things afresh and found fresh evidence of Arthur = Mance as well, in the underworld theme of Jon's meeting him, and additional clues in Martin's description of men with bright faces fighting wraiths at the Tower of Joy, and figured out as well that Oswell Whent is Catelyn Stark's uncle (providing even more reasons for Howland and Ned not to kill three kingsguard besides Ned or Howland loving Ashara Dayne), and came up with the further theory myself that Mance is singing the Dornishman's Wife because the love of his wife was the Dornishman Aerys Targaryen's wife Rhaella Targaryen. It's really the similarities between Qhorin and Gerold Hightower that makes the theory so much stronger because it's not all about just Mance. I also think Martin is doing something nice with Oswell Whent being Tormond Giantsbane who is Jon's biggest fan and supporter. Catelyn of course traumatized Jon by kind of being the wicked stop mother without wanting to be the wicked step mother because as she thinks in her own chapters she just couldn't forgive Ned for sleeping with someone else with Jon around her. It's nice that George has set up her uncle who doesn't have this prejudice as being so great to Jon. And I feel the ultimate healing for Jon for his will come when Sansa Stark figures out that she is head over heals in love with Jon. There are so many subtle connections in these books with emotional journeys of the characters.
I do not know who is making. the claim that Jon first met him sharpening his weapon, since I just red the chapter where he first sees him and it is at the moment they enter the encampment at the Fist, he is riding on a horse, with his man around him.
Its not exactly a well thought out theory lol Browse the comments section on several of my videos and youll hear folks makin these claims XD Idk why Mance can't just be Mance
I so agree with you that all those are full blood character, interesting on their own and I do not see GRRM spoiling them by making them artificially someone else. I do not think he operates this way, for sure there are clues he puts in the story and mysterious characters (like many of the characters in the prologue chapter in Oldtown), but all this does not affect well built characters with a good story around them. This will be too "surprising" - the way the TVshow surprised us at the end, spoiling all character developments. @@randominternetguyoffical
@@randominternetguyoffical Sure. But to start off, because GRRM is a self-avowed "gardener" type author, planting multiple "seeds" of possibility for future story lines to grow into, I do believe this theory is a "seed". There are signs GRRM planted something--which he may or may not decide to follow up on in coming books. So what have we got? Well, we are told Quorin is not like most of his men--he's clean shaven, sits straight, does not overeat and values order in his camp. He values discipline in fighters and comments the Wildlings lack this. These certainly support military training of some kind. Also, we have no back story. Mance has one, but not Quorin, as I think its being held in reserve. Jon Snow calls him Lord, apparently mistakenly--because of his bearing. Not likely from some random fighter, but would make sense from an X Kingsguard. Also, Quorin says their black cloaks signal they are sworn to give their lives to defend the realm. He takes oaths seriously---not so different from the oath of white cloak kings guard--to give their lives to defend the king, rather than realm. Fighting skill: Jamie says Dayne could have killed a bunch of men with his LEFT hand, while taking a piss with his right. Jon Snow, who is certainly a highly skilled fighter himself, says the Halfhand could have killed him as easy as you swat a bug (with his left hand). As we see, though Jamie was an incredible swordsman, he was unable to learn to fight with his left hand---that, is a rare skill. One Dayne and Quorin share. At the Tower of Joy, it does seem unlikely that Ned Stark could ever defeat someone like Arthur Dayne. Ned credits Holwand with saving him, "if it wasn't for Howland reed..." I see two scenarios--perhaps Howland SAID something, maybe to the effect of "stop fighting, Ned would never hurt his sister's child, he wants the same thing you do Dayne, to protect them both from Robert". OR perhaps Howland threw his net (as you've postulated in your Tower of Joy video), thus pausing the fight long enough to be heard, saying something like this. In any case, I think Ned, out of great respect for Dayne upholding his knightly vows and his fighting skill, thought it would be a waste to kill a man like Dayne. Arthur's King and Prince were dead, it was the end of the road for him as a Kingsguard. I think Ned told Dayne--No, wait, you can STILL serve the realm, by exchanging your white cloak for a black one and taking your oaths to defend the realm at the wall. And I think that option appealed deeply to Dayne and gave meaning back to his life. It makes a type of sense. I imagine Ned wrote him letters of recommendation and sent Dayne, now Quorin to the wall with his new alias to take on a new cloak. Poetic justice. I also think Dayne sent Ned onto Starfall with his sword Dawn and a letter of his own, explaining events to his family and how Ned had spared him and let him keep his honour--which would go a long way to explaining at least in part why House Dayne seems so very fond of Ned. Seeds. Seeds of GRRM....
I don't buy the "Mance is Arthur Dayne" theory either, but as for Jon not being a badass with a sword? Idk, he obviously thinks he's good enough to beat Ser Alliser Thorne
Not with a blade, he thinks and can it seems rage out and over power him with firsts, but I think he'd get merc'd in a sword fight. Jon never actually faces someone good in the books so far besides Mance. Halfhand takes a dive and dies, Jon says halfhand coulda killed him as easy as a fly. So if Jon is a fly to a good swordsman, he's still meat to a decent swordsman. Until we see him not get destroyed 1 v1 against a good fighter Jon really remains top tier of the noob tier
@@randominternetguyoffical I disagree. In ADwD, before he beheads what's his face, can't remember his name right now, he hopes that Ser Alliser will go for his sword. He thinks, "give me a reason". Maybe he's talking about getting to behead Alliser, but I'm pretty sure he was wanting to fight him
@@dennisyoungblood1068 Thats a hard call, id lean towards having his head lopped off, but Jon is rash and rash young men do dumb things a lot and get merc'd in ASOIAF.. so like idk, maybe hes spoiling for a fight cuz he's hopped up on getting to chop slints head off and he really does wanna.stab throne. Still dont know if id have money on jon, Thorne is old and hes throne, but he survived the sack of kingslanding so hes badass enough to nit die in that slaughterfest. He's watched Jon fight everyday so he knows jons style probably better than anyone else. And Throne has survived being a knight in the ASOIAF universe and survived the wall. Thorne is def an unpopular douche but by what we see in our books, he should be able to kill jon, due to jons, lack of exp, inferior training and life experience and because jon has played his combat hand before throne has.
all the evidence alone by itself is not enaugh to proof anything. With everything together on the other hand it seems odd that George would create a character has it all: being a beast with a double handed great sword, refered to to as someone who does not bend his knee easily, said not to be from north of the wall by Osha, his treatment of the people, etc. All that together seems to me like a very unlikely coincidence. What do you think.
Idk, personally I think it all falls apart pretty easy. And Mance is a stand alone character who is by himself more interesting than Dayne.. But that's my take, only winds will tell (Hopefully XD)
I generally thought that the author was pretty good at time frames, time distances etc (my only criticism being the ages he uses, like 15 is waay to young even for a medieval-style era, and cmon Arthur Dayne being a LEGEND of the whole seven kingdoms in 23?) Anyway, an interesting future video idea could be exploring some time frames/events that don't make sense, in your opinion, or some stuff that characters know that they shouldn't be able to know, as you said
That's an interesting idea. One of the big events that seem particularly haphazardly plotted out to me is Roberts Rebellion, that one could certainly be a video.
@@randominternetguyoffical I've seen a few videos mention it. They mainly go over how everything kind of happens at the start and end and the discrepensies with Ned's travel times I think. I'd be super interested in finding out about instances of characters knowing things they shouldn't.
@@ceilingfanenthusiast6041 I can't think of any off the top of my head but I've got a real brain teaser for ya, go to where robb dies in the books and mark it. Then find where Jamie goes to river run to end the siege mark it. That's less than 9 months of time.
@@ralcogaming7674 yeah Grrm time really isn't the best or most comprehensive lol. I mean how many authors end up dividinf the events of a book by region lol
Lol. There are countles..literally countless..stories throughout human history of super young people (in our current perspective) being "in power" or whatever. Joan of Arc, for instance? 17. And a girl. But. She was leading an entire army into battle.
3. Dayne didn't know half hand (oswell whent) would be murdered. So he couldn't plan for future protection of his nephew given the circumstances. Also you didn't disprove that Halfhand could be Whent do to a difference in age because you don't actually know the ages of either characters. You only know some details about the appearance of halfhand and none about the physical appearance and age of Oswell Whent. you assuemed the 2 prior lords of harranhal before oswell brother assumed lordship of the castle were young men in their 20's -30's. But for all we know the first lord could have been in his 70's when he was given the castle and his successor could have been a younger brother not much younger than him or a Uncle even older! Hell Oswell whents brother (the third Oswell Lord of Harranhal) is remembered as "Old Lord Whent" by Barristan Selmy when he's recalling the tourney of harrenhal from 281 AC! So if Oswell and Walter are brothers and Walter is already referred to as "Old" in 281 Ac, then is it really hard to believe that Oswell himself would be an old man (like Qhorin halfhands appearance leads us to believe he's an old man) by the late 299 AC? Also Oswell Whent would have been at the nights watch by atleast 284. We don't meet Qhorin halfhand till 299. That's 15 years Oswell would have had to build and create the legend that is qhorin half hand among the free folk and the nightswatch.
Mance, Tormund and Val are going to try to take The Wall. They are doing that AS Jon's POV ends-as he lies dying. Also note that Benjen joins the wall when the war ends-same timeframe as Thorne. Remember the last time Targ loyalists were sent to the wall...there was a mutiny and a Stark Lord dies. Benjen was AT Harrenhall Tourney. He WOULD recognize them ALL. A LOT of people on the Wall at that time would recognize them all, on sight. Would Allister keep that to himself, if them being there served his agenda? Maybe-would everyone else? Not likely. But Benjen joining when he does IS important, especially considering that Benjen is no longer simply a '3rd son." Benjen SHOULD have married. IF Arthur Dayne is STILL alive, he is in Essos, with/nearby a different Targaryen. Otherwise, Qoran Halfhand is using some kind of crazy strong glamour. Why would ANY KG go North of the Wall though, IF they are KG? IF Jon has a "secret" KG interested in HIM-it stands to reason that they have been in Winterfell or VERY close, since Ned returned from the war. Whatever is happening, Howland is also involved. The surviving KG are going to be WITH whoever they believe is their King/Queen, even if they are in disguise for THAT. Qoran Halfhand also reminds me of Iron Born and axe throwing accidents that happen at a young age. It's weird. Mance is a Wildling tho-his story makes me wonder why The Watch REALLY rejects Craster. THAT is soooo crazy to me. The Watch SHOULD have taken Craster in as a baby, but they REFUSE him, in a huge way. Mance stands as a full character on his own. His being a Wildling King that also used to be a Crow and ALL that comes with that is already a lot. It is enough that it is some silk from Asiah that ends up being the last straw for him. THAT cloak with the red silk? THAT is a Mel connection, her Ashia shadow shit and fire shite and her coloring preferences is how it all reads to me.
Not sure how or why you popped up in my feed, but I'm sure glad you did! This was great. For once, I'd like somebody in this story to be who they say they are, and I think Mance is one of those people. Your vids have helped convince me😊.
Thank you! I'm very glad you enjoyed them. I think Mance is one of the most interesting guys in the north and so i thought it was kinda goofy people wanted him to be another character
@@randominternetguyoffical The other thing I think about when it comes to Mance having a secret identity...wouldn't Melisandre have picked up on it? And even if she didn't, what better way to hint at a secret identity for Mance than to have something appear in Mel's flames that she might misinterpret because she lacks context but the audience recognizes as symbolic of the Daynes? Pretty sure she looks for Mance in the fire at some point; why not show a shooting white star over Winterfell or something? Or, a milky-white sword lying in front of a tomb (I think Mance is hiding in the crypts at present so if he was Dayne that'd be a cool hint to me).
@@ashleyofnaath This is definitely a huge problem among so many lol In the expanded verion of the theory Stanis is working with Dayne/Mance to help super saiyan Jon become giga king so he can spirit bomb the others... or something like that, just less DBZ... But that's how they approch that whole thing, it gets really really tin foil past where I stopped tearing into it. The even greater premise is that Jon is Ashara's kid with Ned, so I may attempt to dig into that concept down the road
Ned Starks' fever dream is not an accurate account of what happened at the TOJ. The "official" story about what happened there makes absolutely no sense.
I agree with pretty much all of this, but I think you're a bit dismissive on the greatsword thing. Of course, he's not Arthur Dayne. But Mance's use of a greatsword is special. According to the books he uses it like a longsword. He's fast enough to keep up with John easily, despite the size of the weapon. From memory, the only other person I can remember being able to wield a greatsword like that was the Mountain. And Mance (while not stronger) seems to be faster than the Mountain and better skilled with a greatsword. That is not something to be ignored. His skill is clearly something special.
I feel that it is an example of Mances great skill for sure, but past that I'm not sure about how I feel about it. Maybe I am down playing how badass Mance is tho, he did defeat a lot of people to become KBTW. Im curious, what do you think its indicative of? Do you think is has to do with the ruby and Mel?
@@randominternetguyoffical I never really thought about it much. I read the books after the show, so there are some discrepancies in the way I remember things. For example, I was one of those people who thought Jon was one of the best swordsmen. Then, your video reminded me that he's not done anything all that special. And he's like 16. He still has (had) a long way to go. I definitely feel like Mance has king's blood. Not Targyrean or anything, but in the way he acts and the sense of purpose in him. I'm not sure. I'm thinking about old kings. Like before Aegon. Maybe Durrandon. I know they should be extinct, but he just has something in him. And I think Melisandra sees it too. Who knows? Maybe it's just his own coolness, and has nothing to do with his lineage.
You mention at one point that the theory is an upside down pyramid that just starts with mance=dayne. This is where you failed in the analysis. the theory is tree and the trunk/roots is the the fever dream isn't literal, it only outright indicates the death of the stark men by depicting them as wraiths, and that the KG3 battling to the death to protect a child that was in no danger from starks or the starks battling to death with the people who just answered all these question indicating their allegiance was to the child and not to the new king (meaning they aren't gonna kill the child either) makes zero sense, just zero sense. you swatted at different branches of theory some main ones some small ones but never got to the root which the theory is based on... the question if Arthur/KG3 aren't dead then what the hell are they doing? It makes most sense they would go where they can stay somewhat close to Jon and going to the area where the other participant in the conspiracy has the extraordinary influence necessary for a successful cover up. If you can chop that tree down, i would be interested. it would need to include alternative reasons the daynes hold ned in such high regard after he killed their son and was the impetus for their daughters suicide beyond he brought their sword back to them. it would need to explain the irrational behavior of a fight to the death over a common purpose. and alternatives to where the KG3 would be if not in the north somewhere. with that you would successfully cast doubt on mance=dayne theory.
Didn't Quorin lose his fingers to frostbite? He did (supposedly) survive months on his own in deep Winter. I don't think he's Oswald Went either, but I don't think losing his fingers is really probative either way.
@@randominternetguyoffical I'm sure you're right and I just missed that. But even the best swordsman can lose fingers to a lucky shot (or swing) - "The best swordsman doesn't fear the second best, he fears the worst - because he has no idea what he will do".
Mance Rayder is Rhaegar. At the battle of the Trident, Arthur Dayne was wearing Rhaegar's armour, like Patroclus wearing Achilles armour at Troy. Robert killed Dayne, Rhaegar fled to the Wall.
I agree that the reasons used as proof of their identities can be waved off as being simple coincidences, but the point is it’s there. Why add details to the story that have no significance. Many readers and show watchers made the connection between Aegon and Jon, and if you read the books theirs actually less clues pointing at that. If the focus is to just to discredit the evidence and to claim that it’s just the author being clumsy with his writing that’s another thing. I really liked the videos though, was hoping to find evidence against the theory for the purpose of debate.
Im a little confused as to what your standard for evidence is? Like the case that he's Dayne is Mance is built on non falsifiables. It more or less boils down to "you cant prove he's not mance" and yes...true.. I like everyone cannot prove a negative. But I can debunk the "proof" to a degree, for example the dornishmans wife song, easy debunk, it clearly does not support the idea that he is mance. But like as far as proof that hes not mance, short of the author saying it, or the character saying it... again its a non falsifiable, no one can prove that cuz its a negative. but like you also cant prove Randal Tarley isnt Dayne.. they both use a big sword... now like i could probably discredit any attempt to prove that theory true, but I can't definitively without the shadow of a doubt prove it untrue. In theory without author or in universe conformation anyone could be anyone.. this gets particualry problematic when you add in the facelessmen as you might imagine XD Again, tho as arguments "you cant prove hes not" and "many people think so" are both poor. So I feel that since I can debunk the "evidence " that the dayne is mance camp uses then said debunk is a pretty good case that mance is just mance.. as really the burden of proof this whole time is on the people to prove he is dayne, not on everyone else to prove hes not... further tho im very curious what it would do for the story for mance to be dayne? like how does that drive anything we see or really affect it in any way? Like he can reveal jons parents? okay, but in theory several other people can do that, why do we need dayne?... its all rather silly imo, verses mance just infact being the character that he is XD Glad you like the video in anycase, i may return to do a similar one on the idea that Mance is Rhaegar
4. You never actually pointed out why you thought Mance Raiders visits to winterfell didn't make any sense. You just said you thought it didn't make any sense and rambled a bit but never layed out why it didnt make any sense to you.
Do you undersell Jon's fighting ability or did he just luck his way through the battle at Castle Black? Are Thens noobs too? If so where did Mace develop his great swordsmanship? People who have gray hair doesnt make the sixty either. i graduated high school with a guy who was balding at an early age and knew people gray in their twenties. there is suspect stuff on both sides of the argument i agree Order of the Green Hand does the best job of the counterargument. not as good as you first in the series. but looking forward to the third. and you thought on R+L=J
I ended up not really being able to cover the whole R + l equation in this little series. Because it kind of got away from me. I wasn't really used to making videos yet lol I am gonna try to do something about r plus l and who john's parents are in the future, though
I would argue IF Mance was Arthur then Bloodraven would be assisting him. The visuals then kinda go out the window because, well Maynard Plumm is the easiest comparison.
Bloodraven working with Mance s one theory Id be very interested in exploring. Biggest North mystery on my mind tho is who the fuck put the Raven in the kettle? You hear any fun ones on that?
@@randominternetguyoffical Lol I am team when in doubt blame Bloodraven. Bloodraven & “Bran” were D&D’s greatest failures. I do think they will be doing most everything versus nothing. The only thing I have on the kettle is how every POV up North seems to have time gaps where they don’t know what happened.
@@shannond7437 My tinest foil I think is that I think Dolerous Ed is a potential blood raven agent and responsible for the raven in the kettle. Ed, just appears out of no where and becomes Jons right hand man, he's all up in teh elections and to quote Hank Hill.. That boy ain't right...
@@BlackHand531 Im currently undecided, leaning on B + A = J but N + A = J is interesting purely for the reason that everyone thinks its gotta be something other than that lol like what a twist if it was just that
Also you say that george is bad with time and distance one time and then use time to disprove the evidence for the theory later. You look at every piece of information seperately and alone every piece of evidence is not strong enaugh. The picture every piece of evidence paints together however seems to point to Arthur Dayne being Mance to me.
My question is how tho? Like what makes you think Mance is Dayne? Like take having a two hander, why isn't Sams dad Dayne then? Why isn't Heartsbane Dawn? Its just as plausible or rather implausible no?
"The Watch has no shortage of stableboys," Lord Mormont grumbled. "That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing." "On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion." "None taken, Ser Jaremy. My father is very fond of spiked heads, especially those of people who have annoyed him in some fashion. And a face as noble as yours, well, no doubt he saw you decorating the city wall above the King's Gate. I think you would have looked very striking up there." Update, this is the passage that I was referencing prior to looking it up on the wiki. Its a Tyrion one in GOT. From what we see in text it looks like he was sent with the others who went up after the Rebellion. Was there another passage you had in mind? I just cant think of any others off the top if my head rn.
The real achilis heel of those theories is that they do not contribute at all to the story (why, why would that be???) and that it is not in the characters of the described person (e.g. Dayne is very different than Mance).
I bring that up in the 3rd part because that was one of my major problems with this whole idea like it doesn't comprise a good addition to the story or fit in in any way and it really detracts from mance rayder who is like one of the most interesting parts of the story! XD But people (myself included love that tin lol)
@@randominternetguyoffical Yes, I did watch that after. The thing is readers forget that first of all JRR Martin is a very good builder of characters, so as you say, he will not spoil one of the very interesting side characters. He does let surprises happen, but they always "build" towards his story and are never "out of character".
Great video series ! It is beyond baffling that people above the age of 15 believe in this theory or think it holds any credibility Hope to see more asoiaf theory critiques and videos !!!
Thank you so much, means a lot to me that you got a kick outta the video. Its always perplexed me too since hearing it that folks believe it. Defiantly gonna do more ice and fire stuff soon, playin some catch up rn since ive been away tho lol
What confuses me is mance openly tells Jon they've met before. We know he's nights watch and about how old he was when he went to the wall based off that story mance could not have known that tale unless he was there and since Jon would recognize his uncle benjen mance is just mance. This isn't the theorists faults they're dying for ASoIaF content they need something to fill the years.
@@ralcogaming7674 Mance knows Jon because he was Abel, the bard in Winterfell. He was there during Robert's stay at Winterfell, which is sth he said himself and it even helped Jon earn his trust ("Did you see where they put the bastard?")
Dismiss some (selective) evidence as author error discredits everything. The author literally wrote everything. Who are to decide what's a mistake or not? The dude you discredit on one point is the same you use as evidence. He's literally the guy that made everything up...but you know what he messed up and what's true
@@randominternetguyoffical Ser Pounce is the sinister agent of the Three Eyed Bro set to plunge Westeros into generations of pointless wars and to weaken the land for a White Walker invasion 🌚🌝
I also don't get what would this give us in a narrative sense, to have a secret conspiracy of some not very important characters ( I mean the kingsguards) for I don't really understand what reason. Noone would say, omg so cool, the story is much better because of it.
I don't understand it either tbh, to me its more boring if Mance is someone from the last generations big war for the throne.. But people are hyped on this one and very entrenched as far as I can tell. Its a really well liked theory in spite of its goofiness.
I think the reason that people are hyped for the theory that there's more to the Daynes and Arthur being alive (not necessarily that Arthur Dayne is Mance lol) is because it would turn around Ned being dishonorable for letting Howland Reed stab Arthur in the back at the tower of joy. While we don't know what happened exactly, this seems so unlike the Ned we know, that a lot of people can't wrap their heads around the fact that Ned was also 17 or something and worried about his screaming sister and let his honor slide for a moment and lied about it for the rest of his life. Also its weird that they would name their heir Ned Dayne when all Ned did was bring back the Sword, which sure is honorable, but not enough to name your son after the dude who killed your brother. I also think it's cool to think that maybe the Daynes are somewhat involved in the dornish Masterplan or maybe even have one of their own? If it turns out they know something we don't and at the end of WoW it's revealed they planned or knew something all along, that would be so cool😮 Love your videos! ❤️ Edit: while the Kingsguard alone may not be very important, several characters from them play a big role in the events of the story or are main characters (Jamie, Baristan, Arthur Dayne) And the Daynes are one of the great houses of dorne and anything besides not important, maybe Arthur's importance doesn't relate to him being in the Kingsguard but him being a Dayne
@@randominternetguyoffical fab break down of the theory by the way, especially appreciate your singing. Think this one has a bit more credibility from what I’ve seen and it’s a fun idea, kin slaying unknowing is an idea that might come back around. Would be great to see it getting a proper skeptical checkout tho
I'd respond with 1) No, greatswords exist everywhere, its not weird that Mance as a wildling rised at the wall and as a fighter would know how to use a two handed weapon. 2) Lots of folks know weird stuff they shouldnt know, for example everyone and their mother in westeros knows Dohraki cultural traditions and beliefs lol 90% chance that's just author in universe continuity errors. But say it is a hint, its only a hint that Tormund knows about maesters and writing and ravens.. thats not evidence of him being anyone else or having connections tot he kingsguard, its just evidence he knows what quills and ink are and who commonly uses them. I do address these in a little more detail in video too
@@davidcopperfield5345 He coulda learned it from any nightswatchman tbh 🤔 Like the watch and the wildlings have lived side by side for potentially 1000s of years certainly 100s.. it would be really weird if they didn't know a bunch about each other. Also crow deserters are a thing and Mance was a crow who desertered.. So like yeah he learned it from Mance or any other crow.
But George does also make a lot of his characters alike and parallel each other like cargo the corpse killer in the hound Jamie and Brianne like Tatters and pretty Maris like Joe magician said in his one video so I could see how they would also just resemble but it just seems like too much evidence to and it's also cooler if mance was Arthur dayne even that show that fucked up everything still kind of clued in on things and why would mance and Arthur both say I wish you good luck on the wars to come or good fortune on the wars to come unless maybe that was a statement back in the day but there's a lot of evidence bro and it's also a lot cooler if it was Dane men's Raider with the same people
Idk id give it a big ol Nah on both fronts I debunked everything mentioned and more so evidence isn't a thing one can use in this argument, at least not to support the theory... theres just no way he's Dayne case closed but like also its way cool imo if he is his own character, a whole new dude with a his own life and story is way cooler than it being a dead dude that plays no role. Mance is Mance and Mance is cool Dayne is Dayne and Dayne is cool Mance and Dayne are two cool dudes being cool all on their own
