Manchubow vs. Longbow vs. Flatbow - Comparison 

A real archer who looks like a marvel movie character and gives free instruction? Awesome!

I’m just starting in the sport and I really, really enjoy your videos. I’m old now but I’m still young at heart and archery definitely feeds that heart. Well done, as always!

Wow! Very interesting comparison. Surprised the small flat bow did as well as it did. Thanks for making the video.

Thank you sir. I liked this comparison.

I love "small, brutal, toothpicks "

Awesome video. These comparison vids look fun to make 😀

What a great and useful video ever!

I think it's clear that a Manchubow is the more evolved and superior bow style in this comparison, but as you mentioned, if you have to outfit an army it's more efficient to go with an easy to make in high quantity design. Just as Stalin used to say: "Quantity has a quality all it's own".

Hi Armin, thanks a lot for an interesting comparison. You‘ve mentioned that the massive vibration and the hand shock of the long bow is caused by the mass of its limbs. Though I’m not a fan of long bows I have to disagree here. Sure the limb mass has some influence here but for my humble opinion it’s not the major reason. To proof that you just need to took st the limbs of the Manchu bow also used in this video, it has almost as long limbs as the longbow (72“ vs. 70“) and the limbs of the longbow are mich shallower towards their ends. If we would be able to weight them I’m sure Manchu limbs would come out to have more weight towards their ends. To my opinion massive vibrations after shooting are caused by following 2 factors: - the length of the „freely swinging“ part of string (for long bow it’s the whole string, in case of Manchu it’s just the part between the bridges). The longer the distance the lower is the vibrating frequency and the longer the duration. - the mass of that „freely swinging“ string part (again for Manchu bow it’s less). The higher the mass the lower the frequency and the longer it’s duration. The hand shock is for my understanding beside the limb weight is caused by the „trajectory“ of the limb movements which is caused by the limb geometry. For long bow during the release the „mass of the limbs“ is more or less moving towards the target, so once stopped by the string this energy generated the shock to the hand. In case of Manchu bow the mass of the Upper limb is directed in a kind of upward diagonal and the lower limb - in a downward diagonal. The upward- downward moves cancels each other, so only the „towards the target“ part of the movement causes the hand shock. Best Regards Philipp

Nice seeing theory in practise. Great video.

Do more of these comparison videos sir like compare the different fiberglass bows you reviewed in the past and whatnot.

great comparison

Saw video of a traditional North American Ram's Horn & Sinew bow which was said to produce 200fps with a similar draw -- didn't see them measure it though. Very interesting and deliberate manufacturing process.

Hello Armin, your videos are fantastic! I’ve actually been looking for a viking longbow, could you point me to where you got this one or refer me to one you would recommend?

Nice comparison

wow the release on the machu bow looked amazing, enjoy!

Thanks !

Awesome video! Definitely learning a lot from your comparisons. I was wondering if you could review the Samick Mind 50, and maybe compare it to the Segye and Black Shadow? Seems to be a popular model from Samick.

Yeaaaaayyyy... Pvc bow next video... Hehehe

I'm catching up on your past vids as i only subscribed a couple months ago. I've learnt so much already. Tell me, sometimes you rest the arrow on your finger on the left side of the bow and other times you rest arrow on right side of the bow on your thumb...any reason for this ?

Armin I love Osage as a bow wood.

@ 4:20 The bottom limb of that osage orange flatbow seems to be flexing way more sharply than the top limb

Odd question, I am getting back into archery. Used to shoot long bows, but being 6’ 6” the bows need to long for the draw length I needed. 20 years ago I could pull some heavier bow but not now. What kind of a defect refelex bow would recommend for starting with?

What is the bow second from the bottom, on the rack behind you? 4:38 It looks very much like my Galaxy Black Ridge 70" Longbow. I know these things are often sold under different brands. I looked for other brands of this one, but didn't find any.

Interesting as always. What do you think different siyahs shape and siyahs length do (short vs long, curvy vs agressive)?

Thank you for the comparison. Whilst the english bow was cheaply made, there was an entire industry making them, which gives us surnames, "Bowyer", "Fletcher", and so on. The english bow is not quite so simple as the viking, the wood seasoned, the limbs more tapered, the grip thicker and the horn nocks necessitated by the slight natural recurve. The action of a longbow should be sweeter and not stack like that viking. The longbow should have a variable draw length, from the lips to the shoulder, without forcing it. For hunting and target practice it would be about the weight you used but for warfare it might be asked to shoot heads of up to 6-ounces, which needs a heavier bow and 'cloth-yard' arrows up to 1/2-inch diameter. Draw weight for intended purpose. The purpose of such a heavy arrow would be impact more than penetration. A specialised weapon to deliver with force from massed archers rather than distance or speed, and usually at the horses. The Mary Rose longbows are good examples but they are late period, quite crude, and many appear unfinished. They ranged from 100 to 180 pounds draw but I cannot image anyone drawing the heaviest without tillering it down to suit the archer. The majority in the 150-160 range. They're for lobbing bricks, heavy arrows.

Shannon Outdoors is making fire hardened Hickory and other white wood bows without any backing with similar draw weights but pretty dang fast

i havent see any high speed footage showing the vibration . of bows like the viking . or english longbows . i mention cause you joked about the viking bow still vibrating . that and some hi speed of your reaction to string slap would be fun . i got a bit of a friends modern style trad recurve , my camera only does 400 fps so its meh , but still fun . cheers .

I've heard of the Viking style longbow before with the side nock and both ends of the string being fitted different. That other end is tied on, right? Doesn't slip or need a nock? Can you explain that a bit? I can't find details on on it like what the knot's called or anything (for one of my stories which is a Viking parallel the lead character makes his own Holmegaard bow/s with the string like that)

Yes i got a 70 inch long bow with Robin hood bow company name, I'm interested in any info on it?

What might be the next step up above the Manchu, possibly even slightly shorter?

Smart idea having the tennis balls there to keep you sharp, you should play an older "semi-retired" version of Oliver Queen in a short film or something (I use bottles for that, the stiff type of plastic where they won't crumple up so easy)

You need to turn your left elbow outward when you use a longbow:) Just so ya know. I don't get string slap now but I did a regularly when I first delved into them. I needed this comparison, though. Thanks for the video!

Thank you for this video. I am new to archery and learning with an 18 lb. 66" flatbow with a 28-ish(?) draw. I'm curious about longer draw bows though, because I can actually stretch a 33-36" span if I use my shoulder as anchor point. The only thing I worry about buying another bow for long draw sight-unseen is my bosom getting in the way...?

Ah, so that's what a flatbow is, I was never quite sure.

Gotta love comparisons. Who makes that Manchu bow?

a study in human evolution . very insightful

Nabend Armin, von wem ist eigentlich der Indianerbogen ? Ich hatte schon mal mit dem Gedanken gespielt mir einen zuzulegen.

my best when hunting is the short bows

Indian archery tradition have both long and short bamboo straight bows. Best secret to learn is to practice opposite to high pressure air flow. Even three or five odd joints bows are also part of Indian archery.

When you are loading your muscles like that, you should take a valsalva. Lock your abdominal muscles against a deeply held breath. Don't release the breath until you are unloaded. It helps keep the peripheral nervous system primed for an intense load.

Interesting, I was surprised the short indian flatbow did so well, but it looked like a real beast to draw. I think they only drew to around 26 inches or so though, and shot at very close range. I must get a manchu bow and experience 35" draw. Zero interest in longbows ;)

feet a little more apart, more upright with your upper body and turning the left hand outwards so that the tendon does not touch the forearm saves eveything. Do not let go of the arrow until everything is in harmony. It helps if the arrowhand is placed against the bone onder your eye ;-)

Hi Armin I have a Question. Why when i see archers draw the longbow they lean towards the bow?

I'm curious. You're right-handed same as myself....but I noticed you shot the Manchubow with the arrow on the opposite side of the bow. Why is that exactly? Is it something about how the bow is made? I can't see it closely enough to observe any differences for myself. lol Or is it merely a different style of shooting? just wondering it's purpose

The flat bow didn't look like it was done properly, one limb was stiffer than the other... that could be the reason for the slower arrow speed. An improperly made bow based on elders tutelage won't put meat on the table, just practice form and release similar to Ishi's arrow release. Good presentation, I like the comparison between different bow designs.

Cool end results for the Manchu bow. 45 lbs draw weight for the long bow? Seems a tad on the light side for such a hulking brute. In saying that, I'd like to see the comparison to an English (or, if you like, Welsh) long bow. I believe (not 100% sure) those were in the realm of 100 to 150 lbs draw weight. Might have something to do with the wood most were made from. Yew, I believe. All the same, interesting video. Thanks for sharing.

Apologies, I don't know any Maltese, but at 10:04 it sounds like you said "واهية (wahia) madonna." What an interesting blend of Italian and Arabic!

Nice comparison but I believe that you were holding the flat bow upside down..the stiffer limb on native short bows is the bottom limb(usually). Thanks for sharing.

Funny. Europeans have a odd idea of what short Native bows are. A short Indian bow would be 3 to 4 feet.

Hi Armin, great to see this comparison! I’ve been arguing with western archery for decades about this exact subject. Lucky for them they were sheltered from the Mongols, Tatars and everyone else that always had far superior equipment throughout “ALL” of history. For me it’s a shame. It took more than 30 years of western archery before I met Asiatic and became enlightened. Spine, archers paradox and all the other bs is only bs unless your desire is to be slow and weak! Modern western archery form instruction guarantees physical damage! How could they become so... I won’t say stupid. Naive fits.

Hello Armin, Thank you for this comparation.! I think an improvement to compare speed for this three bows should be done using with Thumb Release in all of them. In my experience thumb release gives arrond 15% of additional speed to the arrow.

shooting that many arrows without a tab or glove while shooting 40lbs and above, my fingers would be feeling numb. maybe not feeling it due to string slap taking the focus of pain. ouch!

My 40lb Korean bow out performs my 50lb recurve, by a lot. I’d be amazed if the Manchu doesn’t come out on top.

Much Manchu love here

So, if you think this is an unfair comparison in favour of the manchu bow, get this: if you relate the speed of these bows to the hours invested to build them, as per values given by Armin (24 hrs for Viking vs. 1 year for Manchu), you get the following: Viking: 143 ft/s / 24 hrs = *5.96* ft/s per hour of work Manchu: 166 ft/s / (365*24 hrs) = *0.02* ft/s per hour of work That doesn't even include the craftsmanship needed to build a Manchu bow. So I'd say this is not necessarily unfair, you get what you invest in, and as you want incrementally better bows, you have to invest exponentially more time.

Basalt fibers are 2 times as stong as steel. Basalt rebar may make a fine bow. Fancy that. A bow made from rock!

満州弓早期是用来对抗火枪的，威力极强，而且很省力，同等拉力能产生更强的威力。

How about a bearpaw Scythian style bow next, see how it stacks up.

Интересно было бы посмотреть индейский лук с лёгкими стрелами в 28 дюймов. It would be interesting to see an Indian bow with light arrows of 28 inches.

There is some scant evidence that Viking bows dis have a blade on one end of the bow,however you just have to look at the Manchu,you know it will kick arse

I would love to get a manchu style bow what company would you recommend

476 fps, those red fletchings really help. =)

this illustrates why the Mongol style bow was adopted everywhere it was incountered, from Finland to korea, Siberia to Arabia. the extra skill and time required to construct was well worth it. These factors, skill, time to construct, and acquisition of materials are a bit over stated at the beginning of this clip. For example, the English had to start importing Yew bow staves from Spain towards the end of the long bow period because of limited supply in their own country. It is also quite typical to season a bow stave in a dry place 6 mo. to 2 yrs. before construction. As to skill which is undeniable, was far from limited to a certain few. First nations craftsmen incorporated reflex/deflex features into many of their bows, as well as sinew backing and even horn construction. I am certain Mongols and other Steppe people would have also had wide spread ability to construct the Asian style composit bow.

In Manchu fibreglass is the main working material, therefore, it may be more efficient. It seems the other bows are more based on wood.

It would be really difficult to get a "real" traditional manchu given that the manchu dynasty has fallen long ago and the bowyer tradition was interrupted. But luckily we can replicate it :)

The composite recurved bow was the key to horse archerymen in the ancient time. They were the special forces in their time.

So, If I need to kill someone at my convenience, go with the Manchu, but if I need to kill someone in less than two weeks from now, go with the longbow...

Who else hears shotgun in the background such a banger

Useful to note that the Viking design predates the Manchu by 900 to 500 years. Something closer would be Tang, which is roughly contemporaneous with the Viking age

I think bows are beautiful shape. Obviously the Manchu bow out-performed the Viking bow, but you did mention that the long bow are easier to make ? Would you know roughly how long it would take a craftsman to make the Manchu bow and the long bow ? If you have a war on you need to be able to manufacture weapons very fast so a complicated weapon that takes a lot time to make and is very skill demanding could be a setback. An example of this is the German v Russian tanks. The German tanks were far more complex and difficult engineering wise to manufacture whereas the Russian tanks were simpler and easier to manufacture.

Not a fair comparison. 1) the manchu is a modern laminate 2) Both of the selfbows had bad tiller. 3) native americans often used sinew backing which would increase the speed, also selfbow performance varies so much from bow to bow. The asiatic bow was probably superior, but i dont think by 20 fps, i dont know what your experience is with mediterranean draw but release is key in performance, and its pretty clear that your strong suit is asiatic archery.

That little osage bow looks poorly tillered. You might want to take a scraper to it so it doesn't break. It might be because he holds it so far down and has stressed the lower limb severely over time.

Comparing two sticks to a work of art :-) the longer the bow the greater the range an 80lbs hand cross bow has a shorter range than an 80lbs long bow

With Viking the history is clear, would love some historic context for the others to prevent me from googling it 🙂

Hey

6:53 pause it the bottom arm is way more bent... your supposed to have your hand in the very center of the bow. he is holding it too low generating much less power from the upper limb

Well Manchu were the ultimate nomadic people who conquered the mighty mongol. What you expect?

Longbows are more primitive types of bows so you need more strength to achieve similar results on the target. The humid and rainy weather of some regions would cause serious maintenance issues to horn/sinew bows. Composites were known in western europe, the Romans used it. It is also worth pointing out that the men using the longbow were particularly strong men, using bows in excess of 100 pounds of draw weight. So even though their longbows made them tired much quicker than if they used composite, they were still effective on the battlefield and particularly lethal at close range within 30 meters with those heavy arrows.

Are we to assume that the Manchu bow cannot be bettered by its contemporaries?

dein reiterbogen hat zu wenig standhöhe und den osage würde ich an deiner stelle nicht nochmal so weit ziehen.

LoL !!! Like pull starting a crappy lawnmower

No contest

13:51 I disagree a longbow Viking or English are not easy to build the cross sections take a lot of stress they can break very easy sure a lot of people can make them but those bow are usually not very good look at a website raven beak nature works the man there makes some of the best longbows in the world you will see what a really nice longbow looks like also that First Nation flat bow has a hinge that might break aside that I enjoyed your video and it was very interesting

Manchu bow is a Lamborghini, Viking is a Volkswagen, Indian is a Ford ;)

yes, you're absolutely right, this was an unfair comparison.. Not even close to the same league

Armin, Armin.... "It's such an unfair comparison." It is indeed, and I see, You admitted it yourself at the end. 😀 So, nothing wrong here. But, it is a very, very interesting comparison, nonetheless, indeed. So, on one side we have basically two selfbows, it seems, one more terrible than another, and on the other, a modern laminated Manchu bow, of a sophisticated design. The real ancient composite bow would take even more time and resources to be made. But, I know of course that You know that. BUT ALL WE GET IS 23 FEET P/S MORE, 7,01 Meter! Sorry, really, that I wrote that with caps on, I was really surprised, don't want to offend You. So, literally a pulled up tree, dried and hacked in a bow literally in hours, (You can begin in a morning and shoot it afternoon, says Tim Baker, one of authors of Bowyers bible's) and by doing that, one can make a considerably better bow, as You presented here. Than a 50# bow would shoot around 164 fps (documented in Mojam test data, bowyer's bible four, page 110), shooting 10grains/pound arrow. But, I don't know, where You can buy such a selfbow of a good design, so I will not hold against You, that You didn't present one here. So, in my eyes from cost of materials and time / efficiency perspective longbows win big time. They are also very silent bows. The narrow outer limbs, that Baker makes are also lighter to draw and have less handshock. I don't want that my comment spurs endless and useless discussions about which bow design is better. A bow should please his owner, both esthetically and how it shoots. So, all could be good. Every established bow type is excellent, this will become clear once the design AND it's use environment are understood. But important difference is: recurved, composite asiatic bows were a product of already highly sophisticated civilizations. They required a complex technical culture. So, from this perpective, we should admire modern compound bows with their cams and pulleys even more (ok, relax all, I know it's not so simple). 😀 Longbows/flatbows of various designs on the other hand could have been made by natural, simple, pre-agricultural cultures. This makes them beautiful and efficient in my eyes. I cannot thank You enough for this comparison. This was one of the most interesting videos for me. Best wishes from me!

So we can assume that the indian bow is a little prrrfttt? ;-)

PLEASE use finger protection on the draw hand shooting heavy bows for a long time without finger protection will DESTROY nerves!!!

The flat how is not very well-made. The lower limb is flexing way too much compared to the upper limb. It needs to be re-tillered. I just made a hickory flat bow, 47#@28" 62"NtN, which shoots 400gr arrows at about 165-175fps.

dio madonna.. :)

45-50# pull is nothing! 75-100# is when it gets serious!

man dude just keeps pulling i would be scared the bow would explode lol

Considering the native bow, try shooting them while in some bushes lol.

9:01 Hahaha you really don´t need to say more.

So choose a bow the same way you choose women curvy and fast he he he

It would be more fair to compare an European style longbow with the yumi, Japanese longbow.

But the advantage of the siyah dont kick in until 80 pounds. I bet if you compare at 80 pounds you would see a drastic difference

you might need to compare a longbow versus asiatic design by accuracy, simply because the "Traditional Bowyers Bibles" (Vol 1 and 4 in particular, iirc) state that any recurved/siyah'ed limp will have a more unclean arrow release - bow limbs accelerate the string and therefore the arrow, but the secondary function of bow limbs is to stop doing that and release the arrow. The TBB states that because longbows decelerate slower/smoother, a cleaner release is achieved. There's no hint in the TBB how this was tested, neither if thumb release was used. The archers release technique might influence this slightly, as does khatrah. Now your argument for using thumb draw is solid, "it is used this way", so it would be interesting to compare a longbow with med draw versus asiatic bow with med draw versus asiatic bow with thumb draw, and just focus on groupings. Accuracy is practically left out in your video, but I understand why - it is way more effort. You need to shoot way more and collect more data on groupings, possibly using several days. I would still greatly appreciate your input on this, especially in a video. If you start a patreon-goal for this, let me know :)

That's a poorly made flat bow. The limbs do not flex equally.