Marvel CGI Artists Are Angry 

now im just imagining all the disney artists in literal zoo enclosures (tbh this seems like something they'd do)

Have you considered electrifying their cages? That could help.

​@@average-wubbox-enjoyerAnd then they open it as their newest park and charge you 200 bucks per entry to stare at a bunch of miserable VFX artists and animators seemingly in their natural habitat *...* *I should be working for Disney-*

Let’s motivate them with a controlled shock

He already said: they stopped using cell animation

"Like the only person".... How did you mess up that badly?

@@MuscarV2 How did u get such a boring life for a typo to be worth commenting about

@@MuscarV2pwned

You know that's a lie

@@MuscarV2It’s a simple mistake. Take your Grammar Nazism to Grammarny.

This goes back to the very early days of Disney when Walt was determined to prevent 2d animators from unionizing. Side note: this is actually why people thought he was antisemitic since a lot of the animators were Jewish

​@@Gnomezonbaconshame the movies he makes are cr*p

@@GnomezonbaconWhen you care about your things and not the money! The money comes after you put your all into your work!!

What about the value of having Disney on your resume? That’s payment in of itself (I’m being sarcastic)

@@radicalfishstickstm8563 Payment in exposure is just as good as paper money!!(I’m being sarcastic)

Especially compared to the AI versions, those shorts are what I imagine a snowman themed horror movie during a bad trip would be like.

Yeah, it’s impressive. It’s hilarious looking too.

It gives me very early Pixar vibes

Honest to goodness, AI art always looks so same-y that I much prefer this cute, polygonal snow man with two dot eyes and a cone nose over the hyper realistic one. It’s honest jank over artificial jank

People that know nothing of 3D are easy to impress. And that fills me with hope 😅

Faceless

Maybe it's cause it's a job no one "needs," but unlike sports and celebrities, people don't follow the artists but the studios?

it's a pretty notorious thing. I graduated design college and wanted to be an animator. A lot of people also tried to convince me that VFX was an 'up and coming' field and very good. I spent like 5 years wondering what to do after I found out that a) designers are paid like sh1t and the industry is dying b) animators are paid like sh1t and made to work obscene hours c) VFX artists are paid like sh1t and there's insane competition d) Media and advertising pay well but are incredibly high stress careers. "this is a 24/7, 365 days a year job" lmao For a society that consumes entertainment so ravenously, I always found it amusing how the people who paly such a big role in making games, movies, animation and film are often treated badly and most people will scoff at you because you don't have a 'real' job like programming and law. I'm not complaining, just thought i'd shed some light on your question. Actually talented people are in high demand and will make money, and some people do make a great salaries. *that's* why it's so highly sought after. But problem is, most people lack the skills or guidance or opportunities to get big. It's like any other aspect of entertainment. *To answer your question in short:* animation, VFX game design etc have become the new computer science. Due to the sheer explosion of anime, games and CGI in the last decade, a huge chunk of creative people want that job. But, since these are such new fields, most colleges and universities are really far behind. A vast majority of places which teach this stuff will teach you only the basics and fail to prepare you for the industry. High competition and lack of talent, skills or guidance. I don't mean to sound harsh, but a lot of people in design college...really weren't cut out to be designers. They just thought it was an easy path to success if you're mildly creative. College prepares you for nothing. Plus, and this may be the biggest one: creative people aren't generally aggressive. It's sad, but most people i've ever worked with were spaced out and just wanted to do creative stuff. They just did not have the tenacity to negotiate salaries, push back against mistreatment or ask for rights. Most were just happy they were able to make some money while making art, since you grow up being told that being creative will leave you broke. So people will say "i don't care about money, I'm just happy to follow my passion". An animator said that to me. The idea that creative people are not smart enough for a 'real' job or haven't gone to college also persists. Hiring managers, at times, have been surprised that I was actually a good student in school and actually have a bachelor's degree. It also does not help either, when our people live up to this stereotype. I've known some animators and artists who did not go to college, and you could tell. They lacked professionalism, they did not treat it like a real job, but more like a school project, and were taken advantage of accordingly. They were talented too, but at some point you have to throw out the weed and actually start thinking of it like an adult. Spaced out, weeded out dudes running animation studios, working 20 hours a day and leading those working under them into unimaginably hellish conditions. Yeah, no thanks. It's a crazy field. Crazy, assertive, hyper creative people with no sense of caution succeed. But most are not like that. All creative fields are: high risk, high reward. This means you have to put in consistent work without much pay for a long time, and then suddenly it'll pay off. But a lot of people seem to wish it was a desk job instead, so they'd rather just mass produce low quality work for a small, monthly paycheck instead. In that case, they really should have taken a desk job. You have to go the whole distance. This means unionizing. This means asking for more money. This means becoming so good that you can't be replaced. This means demanding respect, and also being respectable. I'm glad they're doing this.

Workers who are passionate about their work are unfortunately less likely to quit.

Please use commas...

James Gun personally had more creative and execute control over GotG, since he was the one to really create their current interpretation. This did not and will not happen with the other stuff coming out.

Allegedly the big issue is that artists are constantly asked to revise work they’ve already completed, at the digression of the director/producers working in post production. Considering how much control James Gunn retained and the strong vision he’s always had, he likely knew what he wanted from the CGI department and wrote/shot around constraints in order to get what he wanted the first time.

James Gunn had a vision for what the effects should look like from the beginning, the artist knew from the very beginning what they all were working towards. This is not how most Marvel movies work, they have the artist make as many effects as possible without any direction or vision whatsoever, just explosions and crumbling buildings and stuff, and when they finally get an script they pick and choose which pre-made VFXs will go in the movie and have the artist's rework them if necessary. Marvel CGI has become so bland because the artist need to make shots that would go well in a great number of different movies, they need to be as versatile as possible and if they are like that they can't be unique and if they are not unique that makes them forgettable. Marvel's cutting room floor must look like a war zone with the number of casualties it had over the years, so much stuff we don't even know about.

I have an anecdote from someone I know who works at one of those VFX offices it's that they work so hard on that fight at the beginning of guardians of the Galaxy 2 with the tentacle monster only to find out that the editor went in your final production and just blurred all the action 🤣😂🤣😂

All of these reasons actually make lots of sense! Another reason that I love James Gunn.

That mouse is still theirs despite turning 100 years old, that should tell you everything.

What a couple of cynicists we have here.

@@JSSMVCJR2.1 That's not being cynical, that's noticing the company has a pattern of behavior and stands to benefit from continuing it.

@JSSMVCJR2.1 Cynicism = Acknowledging bad things ever. Disney is almost single-handedly responsible for the complete destruction and rebuilding of copyright law entirely in their favor and to the detriment of every American Citizen.

@@kingofhearts3185 Mickey is gonna be public domain next year

*inconsistent

I think it's more the fact that AI can draw what you ask, so it feels magic. I lost interest playing with it and I don't think artists are going anywhere tho

Are you in the right place? That's more true of gaming, than movies. UHD resolutions are largely marketing and many movies still release in 2k (part of why 8k is a joke). Also the frame rate in movies 24fps. There have been pushes for higher frame rates and TV can generate frames to make the motion feel more smooth. But in general you don't hear much about frame rates and resolutions in the movie industry.

If you're comparing movies to games it's apples and oranges because motion blur and what not make 24fps feel more smooth than it actually is.

​@@vcxvcvxbthe chronically online are less human than the AI replacing them.

what scene

@@Fapey101 the one with the floating head.

I remember seeing that Love & Thunder scene in theaters and I just couldn't believe what the hell I was seeing. The entire movie is a dumpster fire, but I'm glad my friend paid for my ticket

​@@GoodlyPenguinRIP that specific part of your friend's wallet. It was completely wasted

This has always been a persistent issue with the field. It's a tedious artform. I only began to notice it back in 2013ish when youtube animators were first hit in their livelihood so to speak, when watch time became king in the algorithm. But it goes back further. Nothing has really been done about the sustainability of this and business has just continued as usual while exploitation has continued to rise. This is the culmination of that. Ultimately something along the lines of puppetry motion capture mixed with AI style transfer will be the most practical way to look do special/visual effects, with touch up artists tweaking things here and there for that dialed in control.

@@himan12345678 I wish I could go back to 1994, and talk to him, as he slaved over his Video Toaster+Lightwave making a demo reel to get a job at Lucasfilm or just about anywhere out west, with full knowledge of what went down, and warn him. Those early 1990s were halcyon days though...renting time on an SGI to do certain effects, until he could scrape together enough to buy one. God, I envied him! A real piece of SGI hardware! He and his wife are absolutely wonderful people, so dear to my heart, but what happened in 2016/17 wounded them so, so badly. I wish we were still in touch. Sorry, this is waxing personal.

@@himan12345678 Huh... Maybe that's why Rooster teeth insists on keeping episodes shorter like everyone did back on the '00s internet... Is to lower time needed to animate... which also means their stuff is hyper dense with content. And because their are 5th place in the streaming wars they don't need to worry about watch time just if a series did well on views or not.

Are you okay?

BlackRock October 3rd 16:40

Bro too far, next your going to say that calling your fans racist isn’t a great money-making strategy?

​@@Rar830and after that what next? Saying that if people don't like the way you write a story they are seixst is a bad thing?

Because the elites only care about their own profits. Noble sentiments but if you didn't speak out about manufacturing jobs moving to China/Mexico/Eastern Europe effecting working/middle class folks in the now forgotten parts of Western world, then your display of empathy now rings hollow. As the host said, "learn to code" is what they said back then.

in praise of idleness

Infinite, unsustainable growth, the shareholders demand it, the ceo wants a bigger wage for sitting on his ass, so cutting jobs is the first thing they do, and then cost cut what made your products special in the first place.

one word: *Regan*

Ai will never benefit anyone in the long run, it only adds more to the corruptive practices of those in posession of such technology

I agree with you but unfortunately its far too expensive compared to CGI animation for companies to want to use it.

Sadly it's too expensive to produce and almost all animation studios have moved onto digital

How expensive is cel frame animation exactly? The budgets for very good cgi... are quite high. Wondering how exactly they compare.

Especially now that we have more advanced technologies to do more interesting effects with traditional physical cel animation. Things like using lasers for interesting bloom effects, or more exactly controlled cameras so could play with different long exposures or motion control, or different light and color interactions (like say to desaturate a scene light it with low CRI or isolate the focal subject with full CRI lighting or many ways of playing with that).

A return to cel animation is unviable because there is no benefit over hand drawn digital animation. However I do want more hand drawn animation from the west outside of the world of TV animation

"we could have danced around a dumpster fire. Instead we got wet trash and merely walked by."

i've heard this talking about multiple times, you didn't just come up with this idea from nothing :p

And then Hotdiggitydemon came along and did a superior version of that trailer. With _2D_ animation!

A ton of people said the exact thing you did here. Years ago. When the movie came out.

About it being fabricated. There was a shit ton of marketing, VFX stand-ins and what not using the old design. Not to mention an old poster eith an even earlier design. Meaning all that just for the sake of it would be a massive waste of money, people just gotta accept companies are out of touch a lot of the time.

Bing Bot only knows what the internet knows and really is more like a smart friend who seen every RU-vid video and read every wiki then a job replacer. Like for my many creative pursuits I only ask him stuff I can't find all that easly and it works so well!

AI art has only seemed like a different angle look at stuff. It can do landscapes. But all of them look the absolute same. Even Midjourney seems to always make a circle in like half the stuff it makes, I just attribute generated works immediately to it...

​@@AshnSilvercorp As a fledgling game designer, Midjourney has helped me immensely at conveying an idea that I could not fathomably draw. Like, I've tried drawing, and most art, but it looks like a toddler made it, and any details or nuances are completely irrelevant. Midjourney allows me to get the basics on the paper for a character, scene, or idea. From there, playtesting makes immersive sense, instead of asking "What is a Qilu?" They focus on the rules, mechanics, etc. Once I've got the game functional, then I can look at my budget and start to compile actual artists who can make sense of the AI art and develop a nuanced take on it. AI art allowed me to make a dream come far closer to reality than I ever thought possible

@@edwardsantiago9109 and that's how I thought it would stabilize. Not as a replacement, but an efficiency tool for making certain things happen.

@@AshnSilvercorp Exactly, many VFX artists are going to use AI in the future, not to DO their job, but to provide a framework in a much shorter amount of time

Because many vfx people work for small companies and only get work if they get contracts from big studios.

Also, vfx started to become big when there was a downturn and more crackdowns on unions, at least in the states

Vfx unions have been trying to get started for as long as i’ve been in the industry (at least 6 years). It never got traction because people were always worried about getting blacklisted

the professional category of vfx work emerged when Neoliberalism (reagan-thatcher) was already the mainstream ideology, so social entitites like unions were on the decline and being extinguished if possible. Actors were around long before that, and socialism-communism-leftism was much stronger in the early 20th century and post-29 it was the keynesian welfare state , also favourable for unions and state regulation of private capital.

I thought it was because studios would just go overseas and get workers there.

Copyrights and trademarks are not the same thing. Copyrights cover the reproduction of physical artifacts. Trademarks cover the use of intellectual property. A villain's design and identifying character elements would fall under a trademark. The actual movie the villain is from would be covered under copyright. I don't know what the law says about AI-generated character designs being trademarked. But if AI art can't be copyrighted, I'm not sure it would be allowed to be trademarked either.

I hope the writers and Vfx union will get everything they want, because all the added expense will force companies like Disney to be more careful when deciding what movies to make.

Have you seen Lackadaisy?

That wouldn’t solve the underlying issue. Disney was infamous for overworking their traditional artists well before CGI was anything more than an outlandish sci-fi writer’s idea.

Hand Drawn animation never left and its still being used in stuff whether or not you consider those "real" hand drawn, beggars can't be choosers. And Hand Drawn 2d animation can mean anything from digital /flash, rigs. Not everything or everyone can practice older methods. And Thief and cobbler was fine, but the original director was a pain in the butt perfectionist who couldn't make the film in 20+ years and constantly kept firing artists left and right, many works of now can exceed and surpass his stuff.

Stop with the antisemitic remarks.

UNION FOREVER

The problem with Unions isn’t the Union rank and filie workers, it’s the higher ups.

Sure they would, because the unions that do exist, would feel the constant need to justify their existence as people in all useless jobs do; they'd find clearly incompetent people and protest their being fired, ask for more and more wages, more days off, more benefits. Have you not heard of teachers' unions for goodness sake? They're the worst and you can hardly argue in your naive "I think people are really good and society just makes them bad" nonsense way that teachers aren't well paid. What's wrong with you?

I abuse the existence of my union all the time, I barely do work and they can't fire me

Aaaand there they are. Hey guys, good to see ya.

​@@SirKenchaloti grew up with my dad working for an union , their union was in place to make sure every workers has their break and all the bonuses that came with the job. The only time i saw it as "evil" is when they went on strike ( its was for higher salary for new workers)

By that time A. M. will have already taken over

better late, than even later I guess

True

They are pixel frigging messed over.

Humans will always be part of the cycle. The question really is, how many are needed. Efforts that took a few hundred people could one day be done with a dozen or even one. Honestly, I think that's a net good, but getting there might be messy.

It really irks me that ppl just see the current paradigm of diffusion and transformer based models and their limitations and apply those to AI as a whole for some reason. Neural rendering has much much more potential than diffusion models. You get PBR quality for the "price" of matcaps. And neural rendering has been around longer than diffusion. Diffusion is technically at its best in earlier iterations like DallE 1, when it was most creative. Diffusion isn't good for refined ideas or details. But it has its place in a system or workflow. It's like that spark of creativity before you then form it into a concrete idea that you can then work to bring into fruition.

From the outside looking in I've seen it compared to what cgi and digiatal did to hand drawn, 2d animation back in the 90s. A new skillset was needed for it to be faster, and the technology was initially too rough to replicate the fine details.