@No Lümpen MAybe not entirely true. Remember how Protheans can just read emotions and intentions just by the residual presence of someone? He clearly can't do that with inorganics. For a prothean the difference between an organic or an inorganic is even greater than it is for a human. He isn't really right, but his stance is understandable.
@@Limrasson Interesting point. Even Prothean technology was built to interface with Prothean abilities, so his fear of AI is likely also a fear of being unable to "read" EDI.
@Sowneyy 7.62 Because Legion is a Mass Effect 2 companion, this is Mass Effect 3. While you can encounter Legion again, he doesn't become a companion again.
KInda late, but he wasn't talking about the mechanism of evolution but how evolution acted upon the Prothean species that gave them the abilities to dominate other races.
@@glowhoo9226 Evolution doesn't work for any goal whatsoever. Evolution is a description of changes over time, it has no purpose, no goal, and no winners or losers. A specimen you consider "weak" is evolutionarily just as successful as a specimen you consider "strong" because there is no such thing as success in regards to evolution. Biological evolution represents changes in living things, with no judgement as to the value of said changes.
The flaw to Javik's reasoning is that EDI is a synthetic analogue to organic life. What is DNA but organic 'programming'? What is evolution but organic 'upgrades'? Tomato, tamato. Her programming is her dna and code upgrades are her evolution; machines, intelligent ones, constantly involve and improve their coding. Isaac Asimov's 'the last question' features a highly advanced AI that constantly evolves/improves itself until it kickstarts a new big bang after the eventual heat death of the universe. Another thing. At this point, EDI is /not/ a 'tool'. EDI, and probably Legion/the geth have reached the point that by any rational standard, they are 'alive'. They are artificial Lifeforms; hell, even the Reapers are arguably that. Fear of death? Contemplating whether or not they have a soul, if theres an afterlife? Tools do not think these things. They have every right to live, just as the Protheans, and thus, by the Protheans own philosophy, the Reapers/Geth/Edi would be justified in dominating organics, because they are weaker and their will was stronger. By his own admission, it was /Right/ for the Reapers to exterminate his species, because they were weaker than them. Funny thing about assuming Superiority; it always comes back to bite you in the ass.
Only real difference is that organics can't consciously change their "programming" the same way that synthetics can. Also, evolution only works in populations and through successive generations. For synthetics these upgrades can happen simply within the individuals and within a single generation. Plus synthetics don't reproduce, at least not the way organics do. They can build more of their own kind, dunno about making more AI's though, but their reproduction is not via variation. The changes made are simply the same as improving on an old model. Evolution doesn't really work that way because there's no real "improved" form cause it's not a ladder. With the Reapers it does seem with Synthetics there is a ladder of worse to best, but organics don't work that way. Unless you add the biases of the organics that is as Javik demonstrates.
TheBelieveit1 Precisely that is exactly why the synthetics are objectively 'superior' to the organics. They can 'evolve' themselves exponentially faster then any organic species and with far less restrictions and far greater 'variation'. They don't reproduce in the organic sense, but older generations of synthetics designing faster, more efficient and better synthetics accomplishes much the same end. The end conclusion is still that by Javik's own admission, it was right for the Reapers to destroy his species, as they were inferior. Do recall that Sovereign calls the Reapers the 'pinnacle of evolution'.
WitheringintheDark Yeah but hollywood (game devolopers) tend to not understand evolution really. Using the layman's term even applying it to the biological meaning which isn't exactly true.
@@WitheringintheDark The thing is that the Reapers' entire existence is a mistake. Their genocidal attitude doesn't come from superiority. It comes from absolutely _broken_ logic that tells them the solution to mass extinction is to personally _cause the mass extinctions themselves._ So I don't think Javik's belief can be applied to them, especially since they destroy rather than dominate.
It's great how much EDI devlopes in this game. Very believable when by the end of the game when she has decided that she will keep fighting with her friends even though all her data says that they can't win.
V.I. are a static program, similar to a bot in a game, only to run programs given to them. At the best, they can simulate emotion under a predetermined circumstance, and only under that circumstance. They can only act in a specific way determined by their programming. A.I. are dynamic. They are self aware and can change their programming and can realistically simulate emotion. They are able to adapt to a situation without contingency programming like a person when something goes wrong.
I love how Commander Shepherd has the final say in things regardless of how intense the conversation is or how scary the people are. They're like an angry parent scolding their children.
It's not unjustified, though. Sure, it may be narrow-minded to think that all machines commit treachery, but in Javik's cycle, they did e.g. the Zha'Til which took over the bodies of their creators and turned them into monsters. So, when he sees the people of the next cycle potentially repeating the same mistake, what is he supposed to think? I don't know about all of you, but if I were him it would take a _lot_ more than words to convince me that they could be trusted.
@@joseph86255 This. In his cycle, AI was banned because it nearly wiped sapient life out and they had to sacrifice worlds from what I recall. And what he says is true. Whether it's a good argument, I don't know, but machines indeed do not evolve as organics do.
@@joseph86255 Being nearly wiped out by synthetics, then having your species wiped out by synthetics not too long after (Reapers) does that to you, yeah. These experiences are also why he's so severe and crude, often misinterpreted as him being an asshole.
I agree with Javik there. If the Asari, or the Turians... even the Krogans had been like the Protheans, they would probably have been more than ready for the Reapers.
@Swamp Expert Extraordinaire Well, the main thing is the "betrayal" of the Keepers. Without that first strike, the Reapers would have hardly been able to do anything against the Protheans. They managed to keep waging war against the Reapers for centuries, even when they were without leadership and all their territories were isolated from each other. The galaxy of the humans and the others basically fell in a couple weeks.
Not really the protheans lost due to lack of diversity in the galaxy shepard won due to the many different tactics of the geth,quarian,krogan,salarains and humans.
lol @ Javik's circular reasoning. "You cannot evolve, you are synthetic and limited by prgramming." *EDI explains how she can modify and add on to her existing structure* "You are still a machine, limited by programming" replies Javik.
First you need to learn what is evolution. If people will start modifying their own DNA its not evolution its changing DNA. Evolution is about random DNA changes that are pass to another generation through parents. And if this change is good or at least not bad enough that it comes to death then it can stay. This is evolution. What EDI is talking about is upgrade. Its like creating new model of weapon and calling it evolution.
@@CaptRex501st One word can have more than one meaning. Evolution in nature/species is not the same as evolution in technology. Evolution in nature is not chosen by species its decided by that who is more adapted. If you are not adapted you will die. In AI there is not such a thing. They simply are choosing what to upgrade, what to throw away.
There was actual emotion in EDI's voice. But EDI isn't able to feel emotions until Synthesis. That means she was simulating anger. She wasn't actually offended by Javik's comments, she simply reacted with offence because her programming told her that that was the correct response.
Depends on the definition of "soul." Is it defined as simply the ego? Or is it simply being self aware? Do animals have one or does it only apply to those capable of questioning their own existence? But RU-vid isn't the place for philosophical debate. I like the extra interactions going on between members of the Normandy.
@Cptigris125 I think that's because a lot of characters are designed to espouse some kind of philosophical or intellectual ideal in the Mass Effect games.
@SgtHydra Yeah, as much as EDI does. In sense it was an fateful trolling match of ultimate organic troll vs. ultimate synthetic troll. This will shape the foudations of next war between organics and synthetics as it did in Protean Cycle... unless synthetics are destroyed.
@cyclopsdias I also never said this. I stated that self-preservation overrid Quarian servitude. Once the variable of danger was gone, the Geth never fired another shot. In the peace, the only reason the Geth don't destroy the Quarians is because the Quarians stop firing, whereas an organic would've shot them down anyway because ten seconds ago they were firing at them. It still would've been in self-defense for the organic.
What I do is whenever I finish a mission, I walk all over the ship to see if there's anything like this happening--- it may surprise you what you may find. Some of them are downright funny, including Joker talking smack about Garrus' obsession with the Thanix Cannon calibrations :D
@cyclopsdias Machines adhere to this though 100%. This is evidenced by EDI wondering why human prisoners didn't choose survival 100% of the time in a Reaper camp despite assurances of safety. Instead they chose to defy their captors. She doesn't wonder this anymore though when she is given a code upgrade. The Reapers relinquishing control over the Geth but retaining the Reaper code caused each to be a network. But the core programming was still Quarian servitude. Hence the massive help to them.
@LordMoonshadowGaGa Actually she saved them from the Collectors twice. There's the time that they were on the Collector ship, and the time the Collectors boarded them. That's ignoring all the possible times EDI could've saved them in ME3 when she got a body and helped in gameplay.
"EDI has saved our lives more times than I can count." 2 times. Once from Collectors, and again from the mad doctor robot. Apparently Shepard can't count that well.....
Shepard doesn't know how many hacking attempts plus attempts to retake the ship E.D.I stopped from going rogue on Cereberus in ME2 and ME3 plus the taking over Eva's body so yeah
@Daclassicx7 On the Mass Effect forums, Bioware has stated that they are "listening to the fans [about the endings]" and are "waiting for more people to finish ME3 before elaborating on the issue further" My guess is that they are seriously considering adding endings...give it a month or so :)
@Cptigris125 truth be told, Evolution is the term which is used when a certain organism is subject to changes to adapt to its enviroment. As you said an A.I. even if it isn't fisical that changes to adapt itself to an event could be called evolution. to sum up I agree with you ^^
@KOSMOSandTELOS Thats because joker gave her the possibillity to think and speak for her own.. The Illusion Man never allowed it, which is why EDI is in favor with Shepard rather than the Illusive Man.
@Myjapan4ever just give him a jar of cookies, couple of books and he will keep quiet on his little corner of the Normandy. Whatever he knows about the reapers is vital to the mission. Killing him like I did with Wrex is not an option...
@darkdesigns Well according to conversations with him, his race had to deal with their own 'geth' but instead of machines that rebelled, it was machines that enslaved organic minds.
@luciduspostremo Its symmetry I agree, I just think Javik places too much emphasis on the latter, you can tell during his initial conversation about being a stone that was shaped.
@SaturnVII I'm not refuting what he says as that is open to debate. I'm only questioning the manner at which he speaks to EDI. EDI has played a pivotal role in Shepard's story and deserves to be spoken to with respect; even if shes a "machine".
@CerromeX On the contrary, she sounds exactly like an AI, an AI who just so happens to have a wide range of emotions. The common misconception that an AI getting upset or irritated is necessarily equivalent to the human response makes me cringe, it is instead simply an analogue, different but no less real or valid.
@SaturnVII Most beings function with a hierarchy of needs.We have to find food,drink and shelter.I can guarntee to you that someone hungry will look for food,making him predictable.This however doesnt make him a machine. The same capability of though is shown when some geth allied with the Reapers when others didnt.Geth chose to help the Quarians after the alliance,they werent forced to by anyone.Legion sayed they would CHOOSE their own path.Since they behave like organics,they are free.
i wonder how javik would be stonned in citadel Exemples: run theres a reaper there or im a collector you shall be indoctrinated or just REAAAPEEERS Shepard: from now on youre not allowed to leave this ship! Javik then i will keep an eye on the machine you call EDI!
EDI's "emotional" process is technological, not chemical, in nature, but essentially works the same way, and given that all quantum blue boxes are unique, an AIs emotions would be as any organic creature. Yes, if you read into their programming enough, you could predict how they would "feel" in any given situation. But then, if you read into human physiology enough, you could predict our responses as well. We cant turn emotion on and off, it's an instinctual(programmed) response.
Its not working like that. Human can have a bad memory about something so it will chance his emotion. It also depends on our current mood. Also we could be exhausted so we could don't care about anything. So its not the same. Organic life is far more complicated than AI.
@SaturnVII to be fair geth and edi are: intelligent, self-aware (seeing as how they want to survive), and pretty conscious. I don't see how they are not some form of life?
Wouldn't staring contests be harder with 4 eyes? The whole point is to stare. To even close 1 eye is a loss. If you were allowed to stare with just 1 eye the contests would never end as you could just alternate. Maybe they just use different rules.
@SaturnVII The geth didnt rebel because of the Reaper upgrade,it was their own choice,akin to an organic.If their core programming coulnt be overriden they d never rebel against the Quarians.Instead they showed an extensive capability of free will,when they rebelled and when they chose to help the Quarians I am not saying they arent mashines.I am just stating that i believe a machine should be treated as an organic if it has the ability to think by itself,self improve and choose.
![Mass Effect 3: Javik versus EDI [From Ashes DLC]](/img/logo.svg){kind=logo}
