I initially thought it was my headphones; that it was of poor quality and didn't think it was the CD's fault until I discovered this loudness war fiasco.
Deaf Magnetic: 1. That Was Just Your Hearing 2. The End of Your Auditory System 3. Broken, Beat, & Deaf 4. The SIlence That Never Comes 5. All High Decibles Long 6. Hearing-aid 7. The Unforgiven Ringing III 8. The Judas Hearing Impairment 9. Tinnitus & Redemption 10. My Loud Snare
There's this prevailing idea these days that music needs compression to sound "big", "powerful", "tight", and "heavy". But what it demonstrates is a serious lack of understanding about how sound works. The reality is that the amount of power/tightness/heavyness a song has will come from the actual instruments you're recording. Here's how it is: If I record myself tapping a drum beat lightly on my desk, and then I get someone to play the same drum beat on some awesome sounding drums, which one is going to be percieved as the more powerful sound? Drums, right? How about if I apply loads of compression and limiting to the recording of myself tapping lightly on my desk? Will that suddenly sound as powerful or more powerul than the real drums, just because the transients have been lowered and the sustain lifted? WIll it fuck. Get a fucking grip. And how about this idea that "loud" adds power to a sound? If I record myself sofly and gently singing a line from a song, and then I record the same line in the same key, but I scream it out, which one is going to sound more powerful? The screamed version, right? How about if I raise the volume of the soft version to match the level of the screamed version? WIll that make the soft singing suddenly sound like screaming? Will it fuck. Get a fucking grip. I can already hear you compression cheerleaders wanting to say this to me: "Um well of course drums are going to sound more powerful than desk tapping, but compression makes drums sound even more powerful still". Lol. No, just no. Power comes from harmonic content. What makes Chester Bennington sound more powerful when he belts out the chorus to Numb than a Linkin Park fan with a weak voice trying to do a cover and just not getting the same result? Is it the fact that Chester's voice is "louder"? Well, go and test that theory. Raise the volume of someone covering a Linkin Park song and see if it gives their voice the same power. I'll save you time: it wont. The thing that makes a powerful singer's voice sound powerful over a weak singer's voice is not volume, but harmonic content. If you guys are actually interested in this stuff, go and look up additive synthesis, as that is a good starting place for understanding how sound gets its characteristics. But anyway, compression doesn't add anything that isn't already there, it just simply plays with the volume based on a threshold. You'll never add harmonic content to a sound with compression, and therefore you'll never make a weak recording sound powerful. What you will do it squash everything together so that you hear everything at one volume to compensate for a lack of power in the recordings, but that's not power itself. If music sounds "weak" without compression, then someone done fucked up badly in the recording phase, and that, sadly, is the norm in this day and age in the recording business. If anyone wants to sit here and comment on how much more "powerful" the compressed version is, then go right ahead, but you're talking shit.
+srty srtyy You are right, but it should be said clipping adds higher frequency harmonics content, thus a more distorted recording can sound more "powerful" to some people. However, this is like masking a shitty food's taste by flooding it with MSG, salt and sugar. These high frequency harmonics are different from the harmonics contained in an instrument's sound or singer's voice. What modern day production does is that it first removes any natural dynamics in the sound, and then "solves" the lifelessness of the sound by substituting what it removed by clipping distortion. It is like if you drained all the natural flavour of a food and then flooded it with a salt+MSG mix. It is like injecting strawberries with strawberry flavoured Kool Aid. It's HORRIBLE.
+srty srtyy Agree with everything you said other than "You'll never add harmonic content to a sound with compression" This is simply not true, compressors are known to add harmonics to sound. Get a sine wave, apply a compressor with a short release time and watch the result through a spectral analyser.
I've been hearing about this Loudness War ever since Death Magnetic came out and I never understood what the fuck was the difference. Your post is exactly what I needed. Very detailed and logical, explains the entire concept well, thanks bud.
Modesty and humbleness are rare and disregarded traits these days. No one admits theyre wrong, deny, deny, excuses, point finger at someone else then deny again.
Rick Rubin - ruined the sound of the Chili Peppers records he 'produced' too. Have you noticed in the film of the making of Death Magnetic when the band are actually recording the album this 'producer' is no where to be seen? What does he actually do?
The producer mixes the audio. He decided to boost up the levels of everything, making it as loud as possible, in turn making it sound like utter feces.
Rubin is more of a "hands-off" producer, who gives a lot of space to the band. It was actually a departure for Metallica, as you can see how present Bob Rock, their former producer, was on "St. Anger" (even played the bass parts).
Hard to answer, but he has stated that he has no idea how to even use a mixing board. So it sounds like producer could just be a symbolic title in this case.
Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for making this comparison video. I can't believe that they have really distorted the whole CD master to this degree!
Actually there is a version of Death Magnetic from Guitar Hero 3, which uses a lot more of the dynamic range instead of having all sounds maximized. If you can find that anywhere, i would recommend you to get that version. ;-)
I really hope they start releasing their tracks on HD Tracks. This was a great example of the loudness war and a reason why I like alternative versions (fan versions) of albums. #nickgiammarino
This is no longer music.... This is just just noise... yes thrash came from trash but geeze.... this loudness war sucks. Its hard to butcher Metallica.... but this definitely did... I couldn't be happier to stop playing this clip (:(
This is the past, present _and_ future of music mastering. It makes a lot of people, frankly, _outraged_ when they discover it, because they're thinking of all the amazing music that has been ruined with this foolish practice. I'm listening to the melodic "beauty and the best" style metal album _Perils of the Deep Blue_ by Sirenia right now, and a lot of it sounds pretty wimpy because the thing not only has been compressed to oblivion, but also 90% of the track is clipped!
@@Spyker8921 *Almost over and Loudness War continues. New music is still heavily compressed. You can't restore dynamic range once it's been compressed eventhough streaming services use loudness normalization to make loudness consistent at mostly -14 LUFS. Proof?, Listen to any today's top 40 songs, they're still pretty compressed and very loud. I've heard new that a lot of new Hip-Hop music sounds a lot louder and way more compressed than Nirvana and Metallica and almost as loud as any today new releases of Rock and Metal music. Ariana Grande (All of her studio albums) are way louder and way more compressed than Nirvana's Bleach, Nevermind, and Incesticide that were released in the early 90's on CD. That's just tell that Loudness War affects every genres. It's ridiculous when today's Pop (Ariana Grande) is way louder than early 90's Rock / Grunge (Nirvana). Even worse it is when you see 'REMASTERED', it's mostly just dynamically re-compressed to make it louder. They don't really fix the audio, they just only make it way louder than previous. (Example: Judas Priest 2001 Remaster and Nirvana's Nevermind 2011 Remaster).
I have the guitar hero versions and have them mastered by a friend and have them on CD. I can tell you this - listening to the guitar hero version compared to the retail version, the GH version kicks the crap out of the CD. This video comparison is SPOT ON.
Of course they have a choice. They are a well established band with a timeless legacy & a loyal fanbase. They have nothing to compete with in order to attain success. If anything, they should be setting an example for future generations of artists who value music as though it runs in their veins. The sad truth however is that they either have no intimate connection to their supporters like many do now via networking sites, or they simply don't care; through a lack of understanding. Its sad. :\
They already know they will make money no matter what. They are a business, sort of like Kiss. Metallica is almost like a brand name now, instead of a band/ band name.
30 dollars bluetooth headphones held together by duct tape, Low quality audio, shitty laptop sound card, and yet I'm still able to hear the shitty master. FUCK THAT BRICKWALL
good lord, the drums are so much more punchy and present in the g.h. version. the cd sounds stifled and, well, lifeless. thanks again to the good folks at the major labels for relentlessly pursuing their path of insanity!
No, it's because the loud parts stand out compared to the soft parts. That's the whole point. There's no such thing as loud without something quiet in comparisson; by definition "loud" is a relativistic term!
I think there's more to it than that. It's not just that a loud part sounds loud when there's a quiet part, but that different volumes create an acoustic "space." The drums in the Guitar Hero version sound like separate, distinct instruments being played by a person in his own physical space. In the CD version, it sounds like all the instruments were tossed into a blender and put on _puree._ There's no distinctness to any instrument or its respective acoustic space. Raising the volume creates not a cacophony, but a ruckus.
@ripa9 The cymbal example I used makes sense, because the cymbals are a loud part - in the CD, they completely cut out the loud parts (such as the cymbals) and just made the quieter parts (most of the music) louder.
Sure it might sound a little toned down, but with the Guitar Hero version, they had to completely remaster the song with individual instruments, and bring out the guitar more because that's the theme of the game. In the actual CD, they try and keep a blend of drums/guitar/vocals pretty even
having good speakers or headphones is a must to appreciate what is being demonstrated in this video, once you have that though the difference is astounding
Wasnt his fault, producer has nothing to do with an album clipping. it was either the Mixing engineer or the mastering- most likely mastering- Ted jensen... However, I still don't know how they released those mastered tracks..
@@exortor WRONG You don't know anything about the biz if you would blame a mastering engineer LOL The buck stops with the producer and its well known that Rick Rubin literally wants this shit. He is insistent on making albums loud as possible. Death magnetic is far from the only one he's ruined
@@HugoStiglitz88 TBH all of them are accomplices, its not like rick rubin had the final say on the loudness and was the one that pushed the final limiter or maximizer.. Mastering is where you set the final commercial loudness of a record, so yes technically the one that clipped the album was the mastering engineer, maybe it was against his will, but since that was the aesthetic the band wanted and possibly rubin pushed for he had to do it anyway.. who knows... ive read lars pushed for it as well since he said it sounded like a fucking "bomb"... Blaming a single individual for this is just plain stupid...
@@exortor Nope. There is also Rubin's signature in Californication, the album that together with What’s the story morning glory gave life to the phenomenon of loudness war. That was a precise stylistic choice of Rubin. It has nothing to do with the sound engineer or other people involved in the mix.
I remember downloading this album on Limewire (anyone remember that?) and assuming it was all a bunch of bad CD rips I was hearing, turns out it was just the terrible mastering. I have since bought a real copy of this album AND have the GH version. GH version is much easier on the ears. ZZ Top's La Futura is brickwalled, too, very difficult to listen to..
Wrong. It's not the mastering. The album was already too hot before the mastering engineer even got it. This is 100% on Rick Rubin. He did the same to audioslave
The difference is significant, seriously many will keep arguing about youtube not being good enough to prove it but it doesnt matter what you say or if it isnt a great quality you can still hear the difference.
wow, I'm glad you made the comparison of the 2 side by side. It really shows those who are unfamilliar with sound quality, the big difference. Metallica is far beyond their prime anyways. The musical material in Death Magnetic wasn't really that great. If you're looking for a good thrash metal album, I recommend "Ironbound" by Overkill, or "Endgame" by Megadeth.
it does. i bought it the weekend it came. I ripped it onto my iPod and noticed it was loud and i didn't hear the bass. When I looked to see if other people noticed that, there were a lot of people already on that. So instead of listening to the cd, i downloaded the GH version. Much better sound quality. And you can clearly see it on the video that its clipped like crazy. Makes you wonder if Rick Rubin has something to do with it since Californication & Stadium. Arcadium are clipped too.
Shame ! Now the same thing with Black Sabbath`s last album. Who is responsible for all this shit ? I`ll answer to myself - Rick Rubin (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rubin_production_discography)
...probably actually doesn't have final say on the mastering. That's most often the record company's agreement that they have the last word on the fat sausage that this album here was
Rick Birmingham Let`s say they all are responsible. Hey, I downloaded the vinyl-rip and it definitely sounds better. Stil a bit of compression though, but at least higher frecs don`t sound like crap.
Sabbaths '13' sounds perfect ... well, compared to Metallica's 'Appettite for Distortion' (or was it called 'Deaf Magnetic'?). To be honest, I think '13' sounds O.K. Yes, it is too loud and always makes me turn the volume down two nobs or three, but it doesn't clipp on good hardware and doesn't hurt the music, whereas DM's sound makes these awesome peaces of music completely unbearable too listen to on headphones.
The missing peaks may not be reversible, but dynamics can get corrected. Square dynamics can get "decompressed" with the right app or filter. Here it's been commercial software, Izotope Trash with its analogue emulation filters (with the input rider set low, output rider set high - to maximise contrast). Trash can even recreate missing peaks (to an extent), with a resonant filter emu. A free VST plugin, DTBLKFX, has a "contrast" effect, so that might work too.
Wow..... That is a HUGE difference. Everybody needs to comment as many times as possible, and favorite this video. People need to know about the "loudness wars".
I've just placed a video message as a response to this one, it's the one that starts with Perfect Declipper demo - check at 1:04. There you can see and hear this exact same track before and after restoration. The declipper actually restores peaks that are upto 12 dB high in this track!
intro of judas kiss, especially the tom drum fill. also, practically every snare drum hit on the album is distorted, like in the bridge of broken, beat, and scarred. Just listen to the comparison in the drums for the video. Even in crappy youtube quality, there is a noticable difference.
the "louder version" is not really louder overall, it's just not quite as harshly compressed and clipped. It sounds a little better because there's still some cymbals audible, and less distortion on the guitars. the gist of it, is if everyone quit trying to be louder on the CD than everyone else, you could turn the knob up to have the same average volume, but without all the clipping and crushed dynamics. If everyone starts using replaygain tags, etc, the problem will mostly go away with time
If you cant hear Robs bass, then your not listening! Its definetly not as prominent on the commercial cd due to the compression, but its there. The rip from Guitar Hero 3 has huge bass in it!
Actually, the better the system you listen to this album on, the more obvious the distortion becomes. I've imported this entire album from the CD into my pro tools system, and I can assure you that the waveforms are heavily clipped and distorted. I'm actually glad in a way that this album has been mastered so badly, because it will hopefully help to bring to the public's attention this massive problem of over compressing music, which has been going on for a few years now.
@ArtOfPhire You are right that the equipment you use to hear the music may affect the quality. HOWEVER, this album has been used on several occasions as an example of excessive use of compression. To give you an example this is a quote from a conference with Bob Ludwig, Greg Calbi and Bernie Grundman (some of THE best audio engineers in the world) talking about the (the unfortunate) loudness war: "[The new Metallica album] represents the culmination of how loud it could possibly ever, ever go".
@Karoke77 it's not made poorly, it's made on purpose. they wanted the mastering engineer to make this sound by Limiting the Sound over the top. What you hear as "poorly sound" is the clipping that comes with that.
For all those moaning about the GH version being quieter, have you never heard of a volume control before? Turn the GH version up a bit and it blows the pants off the CD version. The CD version is just a wall of badly distorted and clipped static with no punch or clarity. The GH version on the other hand is powerful, dynamic and sounds awesome.
@Friedmett Yes. I mean, don't you notice the heavy amount of static in the CD version? How everything feels kind of "crunched" together? That is dynamic range compression at its worst, and it shows that this album is WAY TOO FUCKING LOUD, even for a rock/metal album. It's not just loud, it's distorted. Take this CD, then compare it to something like the Black Album or even Master of Puppets, then you'll see.
@PotatomanIV The problem is nothing to do with the volume that the track comes out of your speakers/headphones at. It would be absurd to suggest that all people who take issue with Death Magnetic are incapable of the basic motor skills required to use a volume knob. The issue is that the audio track itself has been heavily, heavily compressed, which is perceived as sounding "louder". This is at the expense of clarity, resulting in a distorted, "mushy" sound. Just listen to the above example.
@Watcher3223 "I thought a recording was supposed to sound as close to a live performance as you can get? " Not always. There was no attempt in something like Dark Side or Sgt. Pepper to make them sound live, and those are two of the best mastered albums ever (remasters included).
the GH version's sound is slightly clearer, if you really listen to it you'll find that when it transitions from GH to CD the drums will be very faint but when it comes back to GH you can clearly hear the drums.
The cd version is compressed. For those of you that don't know, especially the guy who posted this video, compression means compressing any audio which is much more louder than a specified preset. Compression is a professional effect used on just about all modern recordings. P.S. hahaha, look at all the people that don't know what they're talking about!
I think it is great that this happened, a release without the 'limiting' and then a later release limited' for people to compare. The first few years CDs came out, this was NOT the norm. Now every big label CD is 'squashed' to within -2db. Do you master a CD for the person driving in a car with the engine sound and windows open (very limited,) or master it for the audiophile who listens to it on a good system in his/her quiet living room?
@ripa9 Heh, you're right, you don't get it. Making it permanently louder fucks up the dynamics - drumming has no "punch" for example (watch the video from 20 seconds ot the end again, listen for cymbals in the CD version, the listen for symbold in the GH version. The cymbals are completely gone in the CD version). If it's mastered normally and you turn the volume up in your stereo or whatnot, the dynamics are still there - some parts are quieter and some parts are louder.
@ultimateinfinite Funny you mention Elbow - Seldom Seen Kid album? I checked the levels on that, and although not smashed to hell, are still louder than what they should be. DR in the range of 5-8, RMS around -9dB. I was listening to Roxette - Joyride, that's a bit loud (DR 11, RMS -13dB) and it's 1991!
im not a professional with this so im not sure what term to use but just from being a huge music fan and a drummer, what i hear is that all they do with the remastered versions is pump up the non bass side i guess thats the treble and the brass/cymbal sections are just much louder and kinda mushed to together just making it sound like a bunch of loud noise taking away from the bass and the dynamic quality that you'd get with the old cd's
I don't know how they do it exactly but most stuff coming out of Japan is loud as hell but still sounds great. The new Galneryus CD is a perfect example.
It's not just you. In GH, instruments have to be separate so it's impossible to compress the whole song. Also, all songs in GH must have same overall volume so no loundess war.
It's just audio compression people. Most people play video games on tv's with horrible sound, they are making up for that by adding compression effects to reduce dynamic range (something you'd also notice on a lot of cable box settings).
@FuturedaveyP The reason they choose to mix and master it that way was so it could be as loud as possible, and record companies tend to think that people think that if it's louder that means it better. I guess they're right.
there's nothing wrong with pegging the meters, even i do that. i like the "click" the needle makes when it hits the peg. but to be able to peg the meters you first need to have material that can take that. when everything has been maxed out from the start, that isn't quite possible. take "killing me softly" by the fugees. clip it by up to 10dB. listen again. there is no distortion because all that clips is the attack of the kicks, there's huge headroom in that song.
Man I remember listening to Death Magnetic with earphones on back then and my ears would hurt real bad after a while. Slayer's World Painted Blood sounds very similar production wise. And both were produced by Rick Rubin.
Wow. It took me a while until I realized the open hi-hat (I guess?) was present in both versions of the last sample, it sounds like a different instrument!
the compression comes from bus processing and later mastering, for guitar hero the tracks cannot be mastered because they have to stay as individual stemtracks so seperate instruments can be faded/blended/used etc. in the game. Essentially the sound you hear in game has no 2bus compression and mastering processing on it.
@eobo Prime example is, listen to the songs live and then listen to the songs from the album. People hate Bob Rock because he 'ruined' metallica but the man knows how to mix an album and how to get the most out of a band sound wise.
If you have a crappy stereo you are not going to enjoy this album, but on my stereo, it sounds full, warm sweet, clean, clear, spacious and with great bass. The distortion is barely noticeable on only couple of tracks, so the album really does sound great. You really need a decent stereo for this record. Hard to believe, but very true. The high levels in the album require a lot of headroom power in the amp and all cheap stereos have weak power supplies built in so your stereo runs out of power.
@PotatomanIV You can't. We want DYNAMICS in the mix. Not just quieter mixing. Loudness in mixing and Loudness meaning volume are different. Why don't you read "Imperfect Sound Forever"? It'll enlighten you.
@TheVintageCustom You are sadly mistaken. NOBODY will go -14dB, at least not popular stuff. It's -9-10RMS for verses, and then -5-6 RMS for choruses usually. Analyze your own music with this DR meter: zshare (.net) / download/68657716dc95b15a Personally I like distortion. However I don't like this kind of distortion where everything in the mix suffers. They should just selectively distort certain tracks but kept enough headroom so that the treble and everything else was still clear.
@stealthis I'm in agreement with you, -10dB RMS is a much more likely target than -14dB RMS. I know the database and have made contributions to it myself. Useful, despite being unverified user entries. As for HDCD, Many don't use the encoding, and many are just loud remasters (DR 6-8). So it's a bit of a mess. We bought some, rather brick walled, Roxy Music HDCD's, and NO software can extract anything different from the redbook 16bit 44.1KHz sound. The W.German Polydor 1985 CD's sound great!
To all these heavy kids out there who think that heavy sounding records can only be achieved by heavy compression and limiting like metallica´s ridiculous "death magentic" shit i recommend listening to the debut album from the band "Mother Tongue". Also to anyone else who dont know this band. This record is by far the most brutal and heavy sounding record i ever heard in my whole life (listen to "burn baby") and AT THE SAME TIME the most dynamic record i ever heard!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even more dynamic than let´s say most jazz records!!! They also achieve this with far less distorted guitars by the way. Let´s look Metallica, Slayer etc. look like little schoolgirls...
Oh God, the dynamic range on the CD version is crushed flatter than a pancake... Dx I assume you ripped it and gained it to match the loudness of the GH version for this experiment? Wow. You can really hear the difference in range.
This video pretty much points out the obvious: one sounds better than the other, yea yea.. But, you all have to think a bit... The version on Guitar Hero is on a DVD disc, which of course is a different format and since DVD's can hold much more capacity than CD's, this will allow for more of the songs information to be stored and played resulting in better quality overall.
The bottom line is, the CD version has been slammed into the brick wall, no dynamic range, clipped into square waves. The GH version is obviously more detailed, with a dynamic range, allowing to clearly differentiate between instruments, quiet and louder.
@FragmaKepi Mathematical analysis will give you two choices 1. "This is the original waveform, ready to be re-created." 2. "So your speakers can't make the waveform properly; let's make everything the same loudness so nothing gets left out. My take on it is if you're not using Hi Fi or headphones, compress everything. If you are on Hi-Fi, you'll get hit by a wall of sound. They should enclose software codecs for people with junk speakers. Just like EQing or pressing a loudness button.
a lot of people were waiting for this album...including other bands who are also fans of Metallica. One would hope that when other bands are making their own albums, they will remember this album and say...'let's not make the same mistake'
The GH version sound thin and tinny compared to the CD version. Yes, the GH version is louder (which is an unfair comparison), so you have to turn down the GH version slightly (or turn up the CD version slightly) to get the real comparison. Actually, both sound overcompressed.
@capnkdawg Just to recap, that wasnt all you were talking about. You suggested that the album sounds better for not being over produced when the whole topic of descussion is about this album being one of the 'most' over produced albums of our time in one respect. Too much compression and limiting has been used to increase the apparent loudness at the expense of the raw sounds quality. You were simply being corrected for your error, thats all scottdvz was talking about.
@soberek the mixing isn't too bad as you can see from the comparison between the guitar hero version and the CD version. The fact is the mastering engineer smashed the life and dynamics out of every track with a limiter. The consumer and record companies are responsible for the loudness war.
don't forget, too, that you are hearing the compression youtube applies to uploaded videos. the GH version is MUCH better than the CD, it's amazing. hopefully this will be a lesson in the loud wars.
the difference is pretty obvious in the sound, but with the graphical representaton you can really tell the GH version is less compressed...and it sounds it.
@powergamer6 They never do, it tends to mess with the overall sound. It's because in the GH version, you don't have the song like on a CD. They store it as the guitar tracks (you play) backing guitar, bass tracks, about 4 different tracks for drums, a vocal track, backing vocal track. You would need to limit these individually which would throw off the balance of limiting a mixdown.
@cadaverdoggy to me...overproduced is when you use the cut and paste shit, where you take 30 takes of the same segment and choose which one you like the best and put it in, and where the sound quality sounds like an opera house instead of sounding raw...I didn't even know overproduced was an actual term, I was under the assumption that it meant using protools and doing things like taking a single bass hit and using it every time
@AGWhiteman No, the CD was indeed the intended mix. There's a quite a bit of info on the web if you start poking around. It has nothing to do with CD Vs. DVD. The mastering engineer made a horrible call and went with "loud" over "headroom for dynamics". And he crushed the life out of the dynamic range. It's a shame too, because that's their best album in a very long time.
