MFJJ, Ranch Fairy and I talk common bow issues and why the John Dudley interview was so bad. 

Couldn’t have said it better myself. I shoot a more moderate setup. 480 grain arrow around 280-290 fps, but the point of placement and diminishing returns is where the focus needs to be.

I disagree with being in the middle as far as arrow weight goes. Looking at performance efficiency percentages, the absolute worst thing you can do is be in the middle. You are better off going light and fast or going to the other end of the spectrum and going heavy and slow. Your performance gains with picking a middle of the road arrow weight are negligible.

@@michaelvstheworld3680 yes, heavy and slow not only saves your limbs but much more efficient with your bow!

@paulheberling2750 yes and no. Do not misunderstand what I am saying.

@@michaelvstheworld3680 seems to be a pretty common link that most good hunters don’t care what there foc is as long as there getting around 280 to 300fp if your like cam and can pull 90p your going to be throwing a heavier arrow due to spine if nothing else

@@paulheberling2750that depends entirely on the profile of the cam. You can hit depreciating returns well into being in the middle before you get “heavy”

Thanks for watching!

Brandon, have you ever shot your arrow , paper tune at 2 ft and tuned your bow completely at 7 yards? ​@@brandonmcdonald6121

It's not that Troy didn't care about sitting past 40 yards. It's because Troy knows the "Majority" of bowhunters don't shoot past 25-30 yards.

I'd like to jump in here. I asked these guys to help me work on my knowledge of bow tuning and answer some questions I get from people who ask me questions so I can help them. This discussion was not about the arrow. It was my request for these guys to spend their time with me, thus a civilized person stays on the rails of the conversation.

@RanchFairy I think this was a great discussion Troy. Unlike some others I have watched and the intentions of other people you have had conversations with are different from what these guys intentions appear to be. I believe there is somewhat of a disconnect with the western hunter and eastern hunters and these types of conversations help those two groups of people come together and help understand 2 totally different types of hunting styles

@@jeremymeyer891 I'm still noodling the western vs eastern thing. Here's what I can't get past. Western animals are larger. Mule deer / Elk / Bears. Why are we giving up Arrow mass to shoot further, which reduces impact energy at the target? I've studied the momentum of different arrow mass - at 60 yards. A 550 grain arrow has more momentum than a 388 grain arrow at launch....(not at 60 yards, ). 550 isn't that heavy and very practical for 80 yards. As noted, I am noodling this but it's something I can't get past. Currently building arrows to shoot 100 yards at TAC and will report back.

@RanchFairy I totally agree 100%, I think the only animal I would switch to a lighter setup would be pronghorn. I have hunted other western game and they just do not react the same as whitetail and they are bigger so I don't fully understand the whole Pin Gap thing. We don't shooting paper or foam at 100 yards, we are trying to put 2 holes in a deer at 30-35 yards.. that is our most common customer which I feel is the majority of the bowhunting community. The Gemini 250 is quickly becoming our most popular arrow. 550 with awesome FOC and it flies like a dart and very hard hitting. Different strokes for different folks.

I think San Antonio Tac there’s a chance we all end up together down there

Moral of the story: heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy as can be.

I really like the moto of shooting as heavy of an arrow as you can while still reaching at least 270- 280 fps. Best of all worlds

@@lukeonderko8696 is take it down another 100 but stay in under 30

@@paulheberling2750 270-280 is still 0.6-08 slugs of momentum weapon of archery depending and that will go through any bone. Ashby with his 115 lb long bow 600 grain arrow was only 0.9- 1 slug of momentum. 270-280 is quite perfect get it to fly straight and true. If you are using a lighter poundage bow you may want a little more weight but of course naturally you would also be closer because this would be trad or primitive archery now.

@@chrisruzsa2798 momentum is the least of my worries. Having a good trajectory that is forgiving so that you can hit what your aiming at is more important to me being a spot and stalk hunter

Yeah, I respect all three of these guys and they all want the same thing. This conversation is a great place for people to learn.

I like Troy! And I think he’s right about many things. I shot 615g for a season and killed many things at long distance. I’ve just realized his worst case scenario and mine are different

Blanton’s! Now we talkin

We said Sir!

I think Troy is understandable where he comes from and he's dealing with the data coming into him. He gets people who have had penetration problems and they want a solution so it doesn't happen again. He solved the equation for the data provided. The problem is it's a skewed data set and it gives a false impression of the lethality problem. Consider this: There's 3.5 million or so bow hunters in the US alone. Just for an example let's say 5% of those hunters have had penetration issues - That's 175,000 hunters and is not insignificant. Let's say one in 100 of those people it was enough of a concern that they reach out to RF and ask for advice. That's 1,750 emails or comments to Troy that is responding to. People aren't designed to take this much confirmation bias in - we can take some but not at this scale. Now, I don't know if that's accurate as I'm obviously not in his inbox but he gets a lot of views. Probably half of which are from guys like me who just like to nerd out and pick things that make sense to improve our build even though we haven't had penetration issues. That's whole, whole lot of confirmation bias that Troy is getting. Every influencer is facing the same type of problem. We're not designed to take in this much data. Personally, I'm not sold that Troy is handling this well as there are items that he just won't concede to be true that are provably true. In this video that example was flight time to target. Troy put out several videos on this issue and made assertions that he believes to be true and stated that the math doesn't work. The problem is - it does work. We can use Ranch Fairy's data from his velocity erosion video to do an example. At 30 yards it will take a 436 grain arrow (281 fps launch, 273 fps avg to 30 yds) around 330 milliseconds. A 718 grain out of the same setup will take around 410 milliseconds. This means that the arrow will arrive 25% later than the faster arrow. Now this is only the time for the arrow to get there, we need to deduct the amount of time it take for the first sound of the bow to get there (1125.33 FPS) - which is .08 seconds. And the reaction time of say .08 as well (2x faster than a male sprinter). Taking this into account the animal (if it choses to) has MINIMUM 50% more time to react to the 718 grain arrow at ONLY 30 yards. This is not irrelevant!! Especially because gravity accelerates and animal with time. If you think that an animal won't react more given 50% more time you're on more crack than these whitetail are. Yes, an animals movement is unpredictable. What we do know is that we want to minimize this unpredictability. Think of it this way - in the additional time it takes for the 718 grain arrow to get to the target the 436 grain arrow will have traveled 37 yards. Can an animal react more if you take a shot at further distance? Yes. If you take this argument presented in this video then you have the believe that a 30 yd shot is no more ethical than 37 shorter shot as it relates to animal movement. Which is not true. The best case for minimizing movement using a heavy arrow is that brings down bow noise & arrow noise. Drag is proportional to velocity squared and a faster arrow will be louder in flight because of that. It will make that noise slightly longer though. A heavier arrow will bring down the noise of your bow over a really light arrow, but not that much over a moderate weight arrow. This needs tested and is extremely difficult to do repeat - I think this answer will be one of the last given if we ever get it. Probably will be debated for a long, long time.

Next point - Troy has solved the equation that his hunting conditions/target species and it works fantastic for him so that further confirms his recommendations for arrows. Every time it works it confirms his solution. The problem is this still he's solving for his equation and it has different weighting. I'm good at bad metaphors so I'll try one. In the construction world we are trying the first item to increase safety is engineering controls - meaning that the design of the workspace and other factors will allow for safer installation. I've done big jobs where this wasn't taken into consideration or the design could only allow get the task "so" safe. Unacceptable but you've got to work in that constraint to statistically minimize the concerns. At Troy's Ranch situation he's got control over the design. He can use his setups to eliminate as many variables as possible. Get the feeder just right, known distance, hunt this one on this wind, set your seat up so your not torqueing for your anticipated shot location, etc. For me - and large swath of the public land or western community - I can't do most of that. I can't trim branches, I don't have enough cash to pay for a lease or have multiple stands locations, I'm usually scouting and identifying my hunt location based on features/conditions and it varies hunt to hunt. Or I'm western hunting and run and gun. These variables are being inputted into our equations and affect our hunting situations. Which is why our end result is different.

I assume you did not mean to respond to me!? I never once said anything about arrow weights. Or what I believe is the ideal hunting arrow weight. You said a lot of things that I never even mentioned. All I was talking about was tuning the arrow to the bow vs the bow to the arrow. I never once said a single thing about “arrow weight” lol

I have such a wide range of point weights that shoot clean with a bare shaft that I almost stopped caring. Didn't change from 250 spine with 100-200 grains, nor with 200 spine 100-200 grains.

I don't touch the local shop anymore. Similar reasons. I'm 5'10" and shoot just over 30". The dude also told my trad buddy at 45# to shoot a mechanical. I don't know how he's still in business.

@@YoureSoVane I looked really hard to find one, a group of guys who tinkered in the garage because of the reasons we mentioned so much they started a shop.

@@MichiganPublic I do it myself now. Everything but making the strings.

@@YoureSoVane I was on the same level until I started going the f.o.c. Route. Cams needed shimmed and didn’t have the equipment. Was about to buy it all before I found them. Gave them 20 questions before making the drive

I’ve followed everyone in this video and Dudley from the beginning . I think in the beginning Troy would try to change the point weight to manipulate how the arrow bends for a perfect bullet hole. In reality a well tuned bow will bullet hole with a wide range points and spine. I’d argue that is not the correct way. Even if he says the bow must be right. He said in this podcast that people send him pics with all the arrows shooting bullet holes with the kit. So my point is he might’ve said the bow must be right but he wasn’t following or understanding that in the beginning of his channel.

@@F22Ra Youre right. But I am continually learning from people who know more about bows than I do. Thus this video. I learned a ton.

​@RanchFairy exactly Troy. It's about learning sir. What I think alot of what people forget is that when Troy admits up front what he doesn't know, he isn't saying hey, don't worry about it because I don't know. He is saying, don't look to me for this. He isn't saying Bow tuning isnt important. Never has.

@@callenscreations574 Someone paying attention! I learned a ton on this live! That was my goal.

It was enjoyable

Wish we could have sat down in Texas together. Maybe next time

Great weight

Given that, why wouldn't you aim forward?

@@josephr1198 for me why try to hit a baseball when I can hit a basketball... and one point no ones talks about is tracking , which sould be a big part of woodsman ship so I don't cair how far it runs...people tend to sucked in to one or to topics and not the over all picture

​@chrismacomber9727 you're intentionally aiming for a smaller target when you aim back given that animals move forward. You're going the opposite of what you think your doing.

@josephr1198 lol last I checked the lungs are bigger than the hart ..but the point I was making was I think a bigger cut is better because your more likely to hit guts than bone..and idc about the should I blow right through with a 1.75 cut.. I just think that the to bones in the leg is what %2 of the body but the hart lungs and liver and guts are what %50 so what you think your most likely to hit ?? The %2 or the %50..

​@chrismacomber9727 let me phrase this another way since you appear to be having issues visualizing my point. Do you aim above the midline on a deer? No of course you wouldn't because the deer drops, you aim below, that way if it doesn't move you still hit, and if it does drop you still hit because you gave yourself room for that. So if animals also tend to move forward, why would you eliminate the front half of your target by aiming at or behind the crease? You are deliberately chosing a smaller target by doing this. If I'm aiming at the heart and the deer moves forward, I hit lungs. If you're aiming behind the crease and the deer moves forward, you're hitting guts.

Based on your comment, I’m sure you totally understand why 250 ft./s with the set up you were talking about is acceptable to you. I think there’s a decent amount of guys out there that don’t do the research all the way and don’t understand what’s happening

​@@brandonmcdonald6121 I agree and even as I wrote the comment again, I realized it's mostly a moo point to make anyways. People will ultimately shoot what they are confident and successful with. No studies or research will necessarily change that, nor should it really. There is always going to be a best way, but never an only way in archery.

A moo point..like a cows opinion it doesn't matter ​@@sheyanderson4371

.....Bob once said (terry's dad) if a cam system moved at full draw, you could licence a perfetual motion machine..............................................................take all this fuckery with a grain of salt ;)