Michael Shermer with Sarah Scoles - They Are Already Here: UFO Culture and Why We See Saucers

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Listen to the Science Salon Podcast # 126 (audio-only):
bit.ly/ScienceSalon126
More than half a century since Roswell, UFOs have been making headlines once again. On December 17, 2017, the New York Times ran a front-page story about an approximately five-year Pentagon program called the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. The article hinted, and its sources clearly said in subsequent television interviews, that some of the ships in question couldn’t be linked to any country. The implication, of course, was that they might be linked to other solar systems. The UFO community-those who had been thinking about, seeing, and analyzing supposed flying saucers (or triangles or chevrons) for years-was surprisingly skeptical of the revelation. Their incredulity and doubt rippled across the internet. Many of the people most invested in UFO reality weren’t really buying it. And as Scoles did her own digging, she ventured to dark, conspiracy-filled corners of the internet, to a former paranormal research center in Utah, and to the hallways of the Pentagon.
In They Are Already Here we meet the bigwigs, the scrappy upstarts, the field investigators, the rational people, and the unhinged kooks of this sprawling community. How do they interact with each other? How do they interact with “anomalous phenomena”? And how do they (as any group must) reflect the politics and culture of the larger world around them? Funny and colorful, and told in a way that doesn’t require one to believe, Scoles brings humanity to an often derided and misunderstood community. Scoles and Shermer discuss:
• who the “they” are in her title,
• comparing the UFO community to that of SETI scientists, whom she wrote about in her previous book, Making Contact: Jill Tarter and the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence?
• what it was like engaging UFOlogists at conferences,
• her answer to the Fermi paradox: where is everyone?
• what it means to “believe” in UFOs vs. ETIs,
• Project Saucer, Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Bluebook,
• Robert Bigelow, Tom DeLonge, and the To the Stars Academy of Arts and Science,
• the most probable explanation for the USS Nimitz UFO videos,
• Kenneth Arnold, Roswell, Area 51, and modern myth making,
• Scoles’ Mormon background and how she lost her religion, and
• what we will replace religion with in the future.
Sarah Scoles is a science writer whose work has appeared in The Atlantic, Slate, Smithsonian, The Washington Post, Scientific American, Popular Science, Discover, New Scientist, Aeon, and Wired. A former editor at Astronomy magazine, Scoles worked at the National Radio Astronomy Observatory, the location of the first-ever SETI project. She lives in Denver, Colorado.
This dialogue was recorded on June 9, 2020 as part of the Science Salon Podcast series hosted by Michael Shermer and presented by The Skeptics Society, in California.
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21 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 238

@helethead 4 года назад

God, it bugs me when he always says ET’s couldn’t come to earth because the vast distance of space Without even acknowledging that they would be so far beyond us in technology etc.

@flaggerify 4 года назад

Still too far.

@ivarslinis9273 4 года назад

Superior technology would not cut it, unless you can break the laws of physics. It is just too far, the distances are just too unimaginably vast.

@restartrestart581 4 года назад

Yeah. And we make other assumptions such as them having to come to our planet...as if we are sure it is our planet, or that they aren't the natives and we the foreigners.

@seanie002 4 года назад

Ivars Linis you’re so ‘Euclidean Geometry’ and ‘classical Newtonian Physics’ Where are they coming from that you claim is too far?

@helethead 4 года назад

@@ivarslinis9273 quantum mechanics isn’t understood. Gravity. There is a lot we don’t know.

@michaelalan6459 4 года назад

Was there anything on AATIP in the Wikileaks documents? We know that program was underway before and during the leak. Using Wikileaks as a debunking angle seems moot since there was no mention of the programs we now know about.

@zedninja 3 года назад

Michael, please do a video tour of your bookshelves. I am certain they contain endless wisdom.

@wtfamiactuallyright1823 4 года назад

This was great! Right up until the worn out conversation on ethics. 😕 I agree that rehabilitation is the best path to take but, it gets to a point of being ridiculous, some people are just unpleasant "evil" (if you're willing to be flexible when defining, evil) and it concerns me that "mental health" is constantly used as a scapegoat. Constantly reminiscing over past events, even if "Only in the 60's" isn't good for anyone. I wasn't even born then and this shit has been drummed into me throughout my school years, to tv, politics etc, to the point that I'm starting to detest anyone who brings it up, other than those who mock it through pointing out the "virtue" attempt or, political motives behind it. I'm 39 now and starting to get very concerned with where this is heading, because I'm no longer seeing anything positive come of it. Bigotry is a thing, no doubt. But at what point does brainwashing become a concern regarding this? Because when it no longer becomes acceptable to suggest/consider that this (brainwashing) is what is going on 'prioritization', isn't the door wide open, for every other form of bigotry? Imo, you should not allow any form of bigotry to be prioritised for a long period of time, it gets distorted and before you know it a whole movement of people are trying to force others to think like them, rather than trying to counter those who are forcing others to think like them.

@a.t.c.3862 11 месяцев назад

S.E.T.I. is just embarrassing - shameful really that supposedly serious scientists should be involved in something like this. A waste of effort and resources.

@PfunkGW 4 года назад

Shermer claims the latest news is "muddled". It's not muddled, it's just that he's confused and hasn't done enough research.

@abc-yg6tk 4 года назад

As someone who spent weeks researching the Nimitz case, I confirm this is true. There are a lot of clear and clean information out there from direct sources, not second hand. Michael Shermer did not do his research properly, or he is not telling the whole story.

@Kalumbatsch 4 года назад

Yes, there is a pretty good article about this nonsense: "Navy Pilot’s 2004 UFO: A Comedy of Errors" by Skeptical Inquirer.

@garylbb 4 года назад

@@abc-yg6tk - there is no such thing as a debunker who actually *does* proper research, and as there IS evidence that contradicts his tiny-minded views, of course he is not telling the whole story....not remotely close.

@garylbb 4 года назад

Debunkers don't do research...they proclaim loudly and ignorantly. Many do it loud and long enough that some people (mostly those who know zero about UFOs) buy in to their dishonesty.

@Kalumbatsch 4 года назад

@@garylbb Research to UFO nutjobs = look for anything that seems to agree with you, buy it hook, line and sinker, and ignore everything that contradicts your religious belief.

@b_kaman 11 месяцев назад

Good to see there are still people out there who don't fall for the likes of Corbell and Knapp... Great episode!!!

@jimmymurphy7789 Год назад

1. Oh Bay-Bee, Bee-HAYVE 🥰 ! 2. Geeky-Geeky-GEEKY ! 😁 3. My good Friend used to sarcastically refer to the Mormon Church up the hill as "the Church of MAMMON" 😄 lol.

@williamrunner6718 11 месяцев назад

Skinwalker ranch is where the whole modern day alien and ghost hunting fad really gained followers and religious like believers in the wacky world of the paranormal. Grusch actually met with some of the Skinwalker ranch people months before he did his NewsNation interview and Congressional hearing testimony. Those folks are mostly grifters I think but some really are real believers as well.

@jeremywvarietyofviewpoints3104 3 года назад

Do we have proper psychological studies of why people believe or don't believe in aliens? Are there enough people willing to be studied to really know?

@nancylloyd1183 Год назад

This was so painful to watch. Even in this discussion Shermer couldn't help but mention Big Foot and UFOs in the same sentence, and then, still echoing cigarette-puffing mid-century Pentagon spokesmen, he dismissed all strange UAP sightings as weather balloons and swamp gas. It's as if he hasn't done one iota of research into the details behind the stories. For example, he didn't know anything about the 2004 USS Nimitz incident, which was reported in detailed interviews by the Naval aviators and personnel involved. The multiple so-called "Tic-Tac craft" involved -- which were seen over a period of two weeks - - in no way displayed the technology of hypersonic aircraft flown out of Edwards AFB, as Shermer claimed. He should have known the story behind the stories of top generals and other leaders in New York Times columnist Leslie Kean's 2010 book UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go on the Record; foreword by John Podesta, (which he said he had read), before dismissing it completely because "she is a longtime UFOlogist." The US government and nations around the world have been investigating this issue for over 80 years. The issue deserves more respect and consideration than treating it as an amusing, smirky conspiracy theory.

@jeremywvarietyofviewpoints3104 4 года назад

I would like to know what the book on mythmaking and Roswell was.

@seanie002 4 года назад

It’s called ‘the CIA handbook’

@gordon7462 3 года назад

These pods are giving debates a bad name.

@Insectoid_ 4 года назад

There is Very like another intelligence Operating vehicles far more advanced than anything humans could build. The evidence is overwhelming

@philosopher2king 7 месяцев назад

16:30 This is a great insight, and it is easily extrapolated to people who believe in conspiracy theories. I've never met a conspiracy theorist who believes in only one.

@heavymeddle28 3 года назад

I really enjoyed listening to this. Can't figure out why 50 of 200 disliked it. Maybe because they're fans of Tom de Longe and believe in roswell? 🤔 I loved it

@MultiBikerboy1 2 года назад

Yep, I’m a fan of Tom Delonge, bought shares in his company TTSA, saw a saucer in the 70’s, looked a bit like what they said the Roswell,debris looked like (brushed aluminium). Speak to ya in 2 years.

@wingzero7316 4 года назад

Stay in good health Mr Shermet. Science is working towards people living healthier and longer. Maybe in 20 to 30 years and with your connections within the scientific community you might have your age reversed, and live longer.

@garylbb 4 года назад

Wow....you really don't get it do you. Shermer is a hard-core debunker, what he knows about science would fill a thimble. As far as he's concerned there is no such thing as an ET UFO, period. He has his head up his butt to deny they are real.

@wingzero7316 4 года назад

@@garylbb Michael Shermer is not UFO denier. He is open minded about the possibility of Aliens visiting earth. Those 3 UFO videos, what hard evidence do you have they were alien and not a secret human innovation? What if USA gov is using and testing a combination of drones with holographic technology as a psychological weapon, similar to Mysterio from Spder Man tech? I met Michael Shermer over a decade ago at a talk in Toronto. He cool. He wants hard solid evidence to whatever the unknown UFO are. Just because it is unknown don't mean answer is aliens, argument from ignorance is one of the most enoying fallacies.

@thenicaron1 3 года назад

Very, very soon, you will wish you hadn't been spoken against UAP's for all these years.

@tomdomer 2 года назад

Maybe "they" are not from outer space. Maybe they are from the depths of the Earth's oceans?

@mrdim362 Год назад

Take me to your leader What SETI messages ?

@doloresabernathy9809 3 года назад

The discussion of AATIP and the filmed UAP encounter with Navy pilots was utterly amateurish and factually incorrect. They both Pooh Pooh the military evidence and ignore the most recent evidence of military encounters with UAPs in the Atlantic. How can two armchair science journalists believe they know more than experienced military pilots. also the author mischaracterizes TTSAC - only one person at TTSAC was from AATIP. There is no evidence that the Nimitz videos are faked. And there is associated data - official Navy documents of the reports as well as multiple pilot testimonies. and the military has stated that the objects are Unidentified. Why do these journalists think the military is lying about this? It is skepticism for its own sake. And why are they mocking the belief that something extraordinary is going on? The Wikileaks argument was also silly - there is no reason to think that Wikileaks has any more than a fraction of government classified records. I don’t trust either of these commentators.

@Erich1224 2 года назад

Almost an hour and a half, she said nothing.

@tommythevenot7617 Год назад

What else could you expect from a liberal, agnostic, female millennial?

@KaiseruSoze 4 года назад

I once saw a UFO cruising slowly over the city of Mountain View and heading toward Moffet Field (A NASA R&D site). As I drove along the freeway and got close enough I could make out the details well enough to see that it was an 18 wheeler driving across an overpass. This took place at around 4 AM when there were close to zero cars on HyWy 101. I totally believed I was looking at a craft from another world on a mission of some kind. For several seconds I was scared to death and curious as hell.

@seanie002 4 года назад

And?

@jlg3315 4 года назад

I get that. lights at night and our brains can do interesting things. thanks for a cool story. most of the comments on this video are weird and too narrow-minded to comprehend.

@jackshittle Год назад

I've been fooled by lighs at night myself. BTW Moffet Field is one of the 4 bases I could have been stationed at for my paticular job in the US Navy. The other bases were Barbers Point, Hawaii, NAS JAX (Jacksonville, FL) and NAS Brunswick, Maine.

@kylekennah1715 4 года назад

It’s a mad.....world

@michaelalan6459 4 года назад

OMG, he said he had to "check his white privilege". I'm done.

@michaelalan6459 3 года назад

@Rombert Dillahuntsvalle I'm not white

@michaelalan6459 3 года назад

@Rombert Dillahuntsvalle you're "skeptical" of my skin color as well? Lol! You're a zealot.

@michaelalan6459 3 года назад

@Rombert Dillahuntsvalle that's a lot of assumptions. No real hard evidence, only your word.

@michaelalan6459 3 года назад

@Rombert Dillahuntsvalle lol. That wasn't very nice.

@michaelalan6459 3 года назад

@Rombert Dillahuntsvalle what did? All I see is opinion/words.

@Eriugena8 Год назад

Thanks to Michael Shermer, I am convinced that anyone who has a Masters in Psychology has nothing interesting or educational to say, ever. Although after checking a logic diagram, this belief may be more superstition than logic.

@craigwillms61 3 года назад

I watch youtube videos in search of meaning in all kinds of different topics. I watch Shermer because I find him pretty fair and not overly harsh when he comes across something not in his wheelhouse. But this video was meh, blah, uninteresting. There was no there there. I do not think I will read her book, which is weird because I absolutely love this topic.

@MultiBikerboy1 3 года назад

MIchael and Sarah full of admiration for your Stirling defence of the ‘no aliens have visited earth’ position. It takes considerable courage for you both to forge ahead in the face of what appears to be a quite unprecedented situation developing from the Pentagon. For the first time in history the Pentagon has admitted that ‘UAP’s exist. ‘UAP’ doesn’t mean ‘alien’ of course but anyone who has taken even a cursory look at what is being claimed in relation to the performance of these objects may conclude, (assuming the truth is being told of course) that something extraordinary is occurring. As I understand Tom Delonge has through you certain tube videos indicated that there could be a lot more ‘UAP’ videos to be released in the future. If this is the case then it could afford everyone the opportunity to make a better judgement on what is the truth of the matter. You both I am sure are truth seekers, and therefore will be pleased no doubt at sometime in the future, if these objects turn out to be extraterrestrial, to set the record straight and admit that you got it wrong. Interesting times indeed.

@Vlasko60 2 года назад

Real scientists know they have to change their mind with the data. Right now, with the current data, they have the correct position of no alien visitation until proven otherwise. It is not courageous for scientists to do this (imo). They don't wake up everyday and ask themselves "am I going to succumb to public opinion today?". They are data driven and if they publish or promote bad data, their credibility and career might be over. It doesn't matter how much info any agency releases about UAPs and it doesn't matter how many people believe in it, the scientific community will not entertain bad evidence. That's why they're credible.

@MultiBikerboy1 2 года назад

@Vlasko60 good point. In addition the subject is always at the mercy of what the official line is. The ‘Phil Larson declaration’ issued out by the Obama/Biden administration in 2011 has not been overturned. Until it is then serious scientists will always give it a wide berth. That said, interestingly in a recent development, Michael has now been co opted onto Avi Loeb’s Galileo project. The project also includes ex Pentagon personnel like Lue Elizondo as an advisor apparently. Expect some surprising data in the not too distant future hopefully IMHO.

@MultiBikerboy1 Год назад

@@richardlaiche8303 well before we jump to that conclusion then certain possibilities have to be taken off the table. Chris Mellon former under secretary for defence in the Clinton and Bush administrations has spoken on this very point. The general consensus is that the tech is not Russian or Chinese and has been around for some considerable time. If it was a foreign adversary to the US then the tech would most likely have been used militarily a long time ago. These craft apparently can drop thousands of feet in under a second and move through the oceans at incredible speeds. At this moment in time it appears that legislation is going through Congress to force the intelligence services to give up what they know on this subject going back as far as 1947 (Roswell?). There is talk of whistle blowers being protected and giving testimony of crash retrievals before Congress. Whether that comes to fruition in the near future is pure speculation at this point. Unfortunately Michael and Sarah have lain on the tracks for decades and now the train is coming…..don’t look it could get messy.

@rp338 4 года назад

Wish you would say more about the nyt article that just came out. They may have redacted the senator’s comment but they didn’t change the most explosive quote from Davis the defense contractor who claims they are in possession of an off world craft.

@FreethinkingSecularist 4 года назад

I just ordered her book. Hope it is more engaging than this conversation was toward the end. Lol she made it seem like a struggle to get through this at points.

@markrisner3452 3 года назад

GenXer's born after 1996??

@stuartknechtle9575 3 года назад

Mike’s Achilles heal-ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RSQxZOv9aac.html

@budgibson185 3 года назад

Get Graham and Randall on . They along w Schoch and Dr . West are correct in Egypt and Yunger dryas

@michaelalan6459 4 года назад

When I go duck hunting I set up a duck blind and sit in it waiting for the ducks to fly in. If I didn't have the duck blind to hide me the ducks would see me and avoid the area. When I am in the blind to the ducks I am not there. Am I really there or am I not? Because the ducks believe I'm not there does that mean that I am not? TLDR - UFOs are reported to camouflage themselves.

@JamesRichardWiley 3 года назад

Some people cannot live in a universe without gods and aliens to break the monotony.

@michaelalan6459 3 года назад

@@JamesRichardWiley some people think that they know everything.

@izzylopez3023 4 года назад

Maybe they’re concept of time is different than ours. Maybe they’re technology allows them to travel and study different galaxies in short periods of time. Maybe they’re not only here

@pillsareyummy Год назад

Time isn't a 'concept', anymore than length and width are concepts.

@tonycorcini3964 8 месяцев назад

So, Michael Shermers thinks we shouldn't study mysteries. Just leave it alone. A scientist who thinks like this isn't a real scientist.

@angharadllewellyn2192 4 года назад

Ha, ha, ha! Of course there are repitllians in congress; there's a reptillian in the whitehouse. How else do we explain the rhetoric?

@fainitesbarley2245 3 года назад

Reptiles are a lot more focussed than humans.

@jeremywvarietyofviewpoints3104 3 года назад

A lot of Ufologists and Abduction researchers are reptilians too; possibly turtle people.

@stephenjones796 4 года назад

Dr. Shermer, very intellectual conversation. another excellent varied, ranging experience

@garylbb 4 года назад

Too bad that he has an intractable debunker's mindset....fact is, he misleads, not educates.

@JM-co6rf 3 года назад

The 'skeptic' stance on UFOs will not age well.

@JamesRichardWiley 4 года назад

I don't know if UFO's and aliens are real but I am skeptical.

@acethereactor6170 4 года назад

Out of trillions of planets in the universe - there's no fucking way ours is the only one to have evolved intelligent life. No fucking way! I don't know if they're coming here or not - but we're not alone!

@garylbb 4 года назад

IF you educate yourself on the subject you probably would continue to be skeptical.

@Uniblab9000 Год назад

@@acethereactor6170 The first intelligent life to develop in the entire universe must have had this same thought. Perhaps we are the first. Even if we're the thousandth (or millionth), the chances of any other of them being close enough to visit are exceedingly slim.

@JohnnyDarcalli 6 месяцев назад

The Drake equasion only makes sense if you take Darwinian evolution for granted, which only makes sense if you are at least half way to being an atheist, which means you'll likely believe anything but the truth. This is why someone as intelligent as Shermer can write a series of books on why people believe goofy things while still taking Darwin's non-scientific nonsense seriously. The belief in God is just too terrifying for him. Romans 1:18-25, KJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

@MountaincraftOutdoors 4 года назад

Faerie folk!

@JM-co6rf 3 года назад

As usual, the professional 'skeptics' avoid the truly good cases.

@pillsareyummy Год назад

What 'good cases' are you referring to?

@JM-co6rf Год назад

@@pillsareyummy You would not do any research on them. Your mind is made up.

@tonycorcini3964 3 года назад

Skeptics are real lazy. They need to do more homework on the subject.

@cosmicsquid 4 года назад

Liked the podcast except the many filler words are annoying. Thanks

@benjamenchiids7418 3 года назад

I live in rural Ut and the Mormons make it terrible. I'm glad you made it out

@RightCenterBack321 4 года назад

This was an enjoyable conversation, but it was heavily marred by Sarah Scoles' lip-smacking, the "umming" and all the "likes." I'm trying not to be harsh, but it became tough to follow at times because it seemed like she was speaking haltingly. There wasn't much of a flow when she spoke and it made me wish the interview would end sooner. It's a shame because Scoles has lots of good information to share. I'm also mystified by both Shermer and Scoles embrace of BLM narratives. Mystified because, on this one issue, they throw out all commitment to facts and science and basically succumb to the propaganda. For example, the "Driving While Black" phenomenon might be real, but to accept the belief that it's a form of systemic racism ignores two key facts: - It's actually really hard to see what the race of someone is when they're driving (unless you happen to be pulled up right alongside them, which isn't something cops do for their own safety). - Police often concentrate in areas where violent crime is most prevalent, which means they're also stopping people for things like moving violations. Unfortunately, there's a correlation between race and violent crime. Nobody likes it, but it's there.

@tommythevenot7617 Год назад

From what I’ve heard, the book itself is poorly written, which should come as no surprise to you. She speaks and writes like typical millennial. It was indeed horrible to listen to her. The audiobook must be awful.

@mynameisjefferson3771 3 года назад

Imagine needing to know p in order to believe p - how impoverished one’s belief system would be!

@pillsareyummy Год назад

Are you saying it's logical to believe in things without evidence?

@garylbb 4 года назад

Before watching the podcast you should research Shermer. He is a remarkably narrow-minded debunker and in his opinion, *no* UFO can possibly be an actual ET craft. Obviously, listening to his intentionally misleading views is a total waste. Much of what he says is simply absurd if not outright ignorant. He has a reputation for talking about subjects he knows little about or is demonstrably wrong about....so you should keep that in mind

@ianhesford 4 года назад

If your job is being a professional skeptic your credibility is ironically already compromised.

@thehalftrue5093 4 года назад

Skeptics now desperately clinging on to their religious belief. Scepticism is 100% religious style belief system

@patrickl6932 4 года назад

No evidence of ufo's

@thehalftrue5093 4 года назад

@@patrickl6932 try looking

@patrickl6932 4 года назад

@@thehalftrue5093 If ANY real evidence of aliens existed you would not NEED to look it would be all over the news.

@thehalftrue5093 4 года назад

@@patrickl6932 . Its has been on the news quite a lot in the last couple years. Might help if u tired actually watching the news. Unless your just trolling

@patrickl6932 4 года назад

@@thehalftrue5093 Yeah, so NOTHING in the news confirms the existence of aliens. Pure speculation based on grainy videos. Again, no evidence has been offered. As usual.