That realization when you just finish a half an hour video essay discussing the history of noninteractivity only to find it's _still_ a decent bit shorter than some of the exact tourney sets it goes over.
I went to an ultimate tournament and they disqualified a guy because he was stalling and taking 20 minutes for three games and the employees were sick of it because he was holding up bracket.
I was recently on a LoL stream where the streamer, who knows a bit about Melee, didn't understand why people wouldn't just play lame and win. I think the "there's not really a point in winning in Melee if you don't do it by your own principles" idea that is the conclusion of this video is pretty much the answer I was looking for. Great job.
@@adriannaranjo4397 I mean, wobbling to 300 every time or timing out is a lot higher in the "amount of lameness" compared to the lamest strat in league which is, idk, juggermaw? which still gives plenty of space for the opponent to try to win.
@@werewer54 In the history of lol there was so much lame shit you could do that even me can't continue to play that game, when i was seeing Aatrox + Yumi or Master yi + Taric and another sup farming for him every fucking game i just stop playing because i can't do shit if they have 3 brains cells, also "Try to win" is the word here.
"Winning in Melee is typically more about validating your worldview than it is about capturing the glory of victory or whatever." Wow that's gonna stick with me
Your playstyle is a reflection of your goals within the game, not your person. But yeah, melee has the same lameass lows of every other smash game, even if its hypest highs are the highest
@@leaffinite2001 True. But I'd say that the quote doesnt mean that lame players are lame people (i just made a bad joke lol). It's just that even lame players are sick people because they're part of our community, and play our game which is sick
As someone who was part of the decision making process it really was just yo make our venues friendly places to practice for those who sought to play at majors as they were pushing back into the direction of a wobbling ban. It was good timing but if I recall correctly it happened before TBH9, the one that had wobbling banned if the number isnt right.
Jacob UGS Havard That sounds fine, but at the same time why would a video of a set have to be presented in support of the ban? It has nothing to do with trying to adapt to major rule sets.
@@WaveOfPig it wasn't presented as evidence. It looks like Coffee thought it was but at no point was it posted in the TO's discussion chat. Coffee isn't in there so I don't fault him for thinking they are related.
Giygas' theme during the explanation of double disqualification hit REALLY hard. That's amazing build up to explain how they could end up so bad, they'd both get yeeted out of the tournament.
As a 2001 rpg rat of a gamer, Earthbound might be the greatest rpg I’ve ever played in my life. Giygas final form is both amazing and insane like nothing else. I’ve beaten it twice and thinking about playing it again now on my 3DS.
@@Mufflin Except we know that's not true? The Westballz set from literally the same video is a prime example of M2K ledge camping just because it's good?
@@jacoblong6864 both abuse game mechanics in an uninteractive way to gain an advantage on your opponent both are widely considered "lame" by the community both embody a "play-to-win" mentality, caring less about you and your opponent having fun and more about winning the game. There are differences, sure, but Wobbles makes a solid point imo. If you're going to do whatever takes to win, to the point where I'm not even able to play the game, you can't complain about the one tool I have that can give me a slight edge in this interaction.
"The game couldn't possibly capture a person's personality if boring people did not have an avenue to be their boring selves. It wouldn't be self-expression if everyone was forced to act cooler than they really were" One of the most brutal (and probably unintentional) burns I've ever heard.
When he said that i couldnt stop myself from doing a mango-esqe laugh for like 3 minutes. The fact that 30 minutes of completely neutral analytics all lead to this one incredible burn makes this some of the best time I have ever spent on youtube.
I like the part where you said "Wobbles grabbed M2K by the shoulder at the end of the game" And you put the Z button over top of it, best joke I've seen in a while
I never thought I'd love a match where literally nothing happens, but the level of mindgames and the sheer confluence of circumstances required for such a feat is genuinely incredible to me
This is the culmination of humanity's journey. From the dark days of sheltering from predators in caves, inventing the wheel, discovering fire, building structures, agriculture, art, music, technology, the enlightenment, the plague, endless and countless wars, it's all come to this. An in depth, thirty minute analysis on a specifically non-interactive match-up between two characters in an incredibly specific and obscure ruleset of a near 20 year old children's party game.
Can't believe you guys didn't use my analysis of Chango vs. Fauxhebro in this video smh Honestly though, really great stuff yet again. You guys are killing it!
The title "The Only Reason We Play Melee" convinced me that this would be a video about the origin of "proper" Melee. The first combo, or the first tournament, or the first wavedash in detail. I'm glad I was wrong. What an amazing video. You've made me reevaluate why I enjoy watching competitive Melee. It's a good point that allowing self expression also means being allowed to be "boring." I think there are issues in the game that can be fixed with rule changes and soft-bans. Through all of those, I hope the community never loses sight of why this game is so much fun.
I think there are issues that cannot be fixed at all. What if a Fox or Falco player tags Peach with a lazer and camps top platform for the rest of the match? What if there's a major conflict within the community to ban Puff? What if fun in Melee is subjective, and trying to force a unified version of the game upon everyone would only lead to division and killing what gives the game its identity? I don't know whether to hope that this doesn't happen and the community survives as it is, with the friendships and belonging that it entails, or this does happen and the community is forced to face its negative attributes.
"gradually people started to radicalize to one side or the other, a state of affairs obviously completely different from any American current events. The insidious thing about this emerging 2 party system is that the figureheads of each party were, of course, acting almost entirely out of self-interest."
@@colinmurphy2214 No it makes sense both are staling and if you ban one form of stalling entirely all stalling should be banned. In addition it's the players fault this isn't a competitive game, it's a party one. Nintendo didn't expect people to wobble hence why in other games it's lessened somewhat or requires more inputs.
@@illford see the thing is, stalling the game was banned. It’s why wobbling players didn’t just win whenever they grabbed because they weren’t allowed. Stalling is banned, but poorly enforced. Wobbling was just flat out allowed and took forever to get banned
Love that you guys can turn something that most people in the community would consider boring or even shameful into a story that is both exciting and empowering. Another excellent video! Also, LET’S GO MICHAELLLLLL
25:42 I love how the go-to once-in-a-lifetime sports moment is Bartolo Colón’s home run off James Shields. Big Sexy even sounds like a Melee player’s name.
Well said Clyde. I don't think he believes what he does is grimy tho and sometimes neither do I, especially when the opponent makes it clear they're not willing to adapt to his strategy. But I guess you could say that makes him a hypocrite for wanting wobbling banned. And the Shroomed thing is dumb af imo. You can state you'll start chain grabbing mid set and that's not grime - real grime is agreeing to not chain grab but doing it anyway/changing your mind mid game. Chucking a tanty over your opponent making a verbal agreement to not chain grab that ends up benefitting you more than them, then your opponent informs you they're going to play by proper rules for the rest of the set because they're allowed to? Getting pissy over something like that is more grimy imo, but I know a lot of people disagree.
Yeah as charming as playing top tier characters and not actually playing for good/fun, specifically Smash was never meant to be played at a competitive level, just for fun, watching people abuse mechanics as a "fight" is as fun as watching a boxing match where both boxers hug or just stand in their corners.
Fauxhebro vs Chango was one of the first melee sets I remember watching live that wasn't some supermajor top 8. I remember thinking to myself is this what happens in bracket when no one's looking? Is this set an oddity or is this an important, rule defining moment? To this day I've still been unable to form an opinion on who was in the right, and I now realize the reason for this is because melee is fundamentally flawed. Melee in a pure competition sense is probably less fun and less perfect than we'd like to think. Chango knew that his best shot of winning was waiting for faux to approach, and faux knew that approaching would almost certainly increase his deficit. Is either player in the wrong? No, the situation is a consequence of Melee being flawed. And that's fine. Because as long as players continue to play flawed, the cracks in Melee can remain anecdotal as opposed to grow into deeper, systemic issues (I'm sure with a multi-million dollar prize pool on the line, planking your way to victories would be a lot more appealing).
i mean that is a cool way to look at it, but in theory one of the players should have approached but they chose not to, it's really as simple as that. people rage quit or make poor decisions all the time, this was just a weird way of doing it. I just feel the need to point this out because melee is remarkably UN-flawed. The balance of offense and defense is close-to perfect, and planking & wobbling are the only edge cases - NEITHER SHOWN TO BE DOMINANT. If you want to see what a game looks like that ACTUALLY incentives never approaching, look up some meta knight vs. ice climbers games from the Brawl days.
@@lounowell4171 "one of the players should have approached but they chose not to, it's really as simple as that" do tell how could ICs approach Jiggly safely. Also," The balance of offense and defense is close-to perfect, and planking & wobbling are the only edge cases - NEITHER SHOWN TO BE DOMINANT." Is that why there's the LGL and rules against stalling? There shouldn't be cases of non interactivity if offense and defense are "close-to-perfect." Every game has something trash about it.
I've always been a smash bros Fan, and have always wanted to compete. Watching your videos is giving me a feeling I have never felt before. Knowing there is so much more to playing a game, than just playing a game.
I dont really watch or follow comp melee but it's because of video essays like this that I find the esport so interesting. Great work man, absolutely astounding vid
Getting both DQ’d is probably the most powerful move that I’ve ever seen in any game. It’s not even disrespectful, it just shows pure might and mental strength that someone must have just to make the other guy approach you. It’s not about winning, it’s all about sending a message and boy that message was so well delivered
@@michaelriccio6012 If we didn't know what the boring parts were in melee, then we couldn't define what's cool was in melee is basically what Sp1nda is saying.
the game changing and evolving through mods and rules at the hands of its own players is one of the reasons i play melee, it's such a special thing and no other fighting game is quite like it.
Melee is so sick that not playing Melee is considered playing Melee. Also, this honestly might be the best video about Melee on RU-vid. This video is truly fantastic. Idk why, but that Boyd vs Michael bit always gives me goosebumps lol.
This is what happens when a community attempts to turn a party can into a formula 1 race car. They did the best they could, but it will still have flaws as the vehicle was originally created to be a party van,
i watch this video once every few months to remind me why i love smash in the first place. probably my favorite video essay ive ever seen. thanks so much for making it.
One problem I have with this narrative is that it propagates the myth wobbling was banned pre-evo 2013 I obsessed over finding out which tourneys banned wobbling back in the day(2010-13) and I distinctly recall almost a 50:50 ban:no ban tourney makeup When I called people out on this myth they just found evidence that supported my belief It wasn't ever banned as a standard, it was always contested
ice climbers players are quitting is not a bad thing for melee. it was a bad thing for melee that players who have that low of a commitment to the game were winning when other people were trying harder with less results, still playing, and losing to said players. If they quit when their infinite is gone when the ice climbers can be as sick as wobbles has shown that they can be then good riddance. Luckily we still have some ICs players carrying the torch as much as we have say Yoshi or Samus or other sick mid tiers. And they can place as well too imo. Hopefully we see that soon, wish wobbles would come back.
The quote about wobbling works both ways. If u play lame then dont complain about playing lame. Some would argue he wasnt mad but u can tell. He wouldn’t tell him that if it wasnt the case
wobbling got banned in his local community/many majors, he kind of stopped traveling and doing locals in the wake off that. you could probably google DFW wobbling ban or bananas wobbling ban id you wanted more info
I don't play Mele and this is by far one of the best documentaries I've ever watched in my entire life. The production quality was amazing, the beginning Hook was awesome and intriguing, there's nothing I could have wanted more. Thank you so much for this
Yeah those quotes are very on point. Melee isn't necessarily sick, its the people that make it sick. However, its a game of fluidity and mixups that are just so fun I think its special regardless of how whack some opponents decide to play. They might win that set, but you can still derive more enjoyment from the game overall though of course as a competitor it feels like crap in the moment. And the lame player will definitely not make it far overall. That's what I feel like the justification for ruleset changes could be, a degenerate strategy that affects a specific player/character which doesn't necessarily result from a better neutral/punish game mastery.
