obviously you were the most observant of all of us or your OCD is kicking in and you need to take your medication lol. I didn't notice until you mentioned it.
I'm super greatful for Sean and his efforts to keep the peace and everyone on topic with respect, I'm greatful for the awesome questions, and I think both sides did a great job at answering the questions with their personalities in full force. Thanks for the vid, I appreciate everything you guys do. Y'all are awesome.
Why are people who use proper arguments using facts, logic and reason vilified with ad hominem attacks like being called an attack dog but give no valid argument to dispute what they have said? @@khemingw
On my mission, my companion and I bible bashed a Jehovah Witness elder. After several sessions he said to me you might have won an argument but lost a friend’. 45 years later, I so wished I hadn’t done that. His friendship would have been of greater value than taking away his own faith and possibly leaving him with nothing. The biggest regret of my mission.
I am a Jehovahs witness and I'm more than willing for you to discuss with me, depending on who you spoke to depends on how much they knew how about your religion.. He probably wasn't really fully aware of what you believed... I doubt you could bash me like you did him, as you put it... And I doubt he ended up LDS.... RFM's brother is a Jehovahs witness
Nah! It was over 45 years ago. I don’t need the hassle. You guys just need to learn that the word ‘Elohim’ is plural. If your translation of the Greek scriptures was a little more accurate then maybe you would have a case. Sorry bro, I am off to do something more meaningful with my life like removing fluff from my naval.
I was there live in person! It was fun. I think it's pretty cool for everyone to make this happen. The best part was briefly meeting them all afterwards.
Your opinion, please. The stream mood was MM overall tone = love; Corbin overall tone = hate. And what was audience mood? Better for MM or better for Corbin? Thanks.
@@BlueHalfVision the audience was no less than 90% with the post Mormon view. You can probably infer the audience mood from that. I believe that people perceive how it went based on what side they were on. Even though I'm a former member, I don't really care about points from either side. I like to see good dialogue from both sides. There were good moments where I think I was able to understand where the mm are coming from a little more and there were some tense, not so good moments. Being in the room really amplified the mood.
You're right. It was frustrating. I would have prefer more concise questions with shorter responses. Long questions with buffet answers were not effective.
@@Mike_Rottchburns You're right, it doesn't make sense. That's why a lot of people are questioning the church, because there is so much stuff even beyond the seer stone issue that absolutely doesn't make sense.
I went to 4 years of seminary and never once was a seer stone mentioned. The church hid it until it couldn’t hide the truth any longer, because a seer stone in a hat is absurd and embarrassing.
I'm a post mormon... I just wanted to thank you three for your answers to the questions, sharing your stories, and offering your heartfelt comments in the debate.
RFM made some super rude and blasphemous statements about church history, temples, and the prophet, and then as soon as Kwaku and the others started to bring the same energy, RFM started interrupting and getting aggressive. RFM, if you don’t like the heat, get out of the kitchen.
I've watched dozens of religious debates. This was by far the worst. I felt real hatred here, and had to turn it off mid way. I think anti-mormons really hate the Church - deeply - to the point of violence.
First I want to say thank you so much to midnight Mormons for being part of this. I watch both your channel and Mormonism live most weeks. I am on the other side of the fence on many issues. But I still remember clearly what is was like to be all in. I really want to be part of a new culture in the church. I spiritually am in a different place, but I am still a member and plan to continue to be. And I have so much respect for these guys for In their own way moving all of us forward. there were things in the debate on both sides that could have been better, but there were so many more awesome moments. I loved the passion from midnight Mormons, and I loved the logic and humor from RFM. I really hope we can all get to a place where both sides are seen as legitimate, and we can love each other without needing to be right. The non-believing side needs to do way better at being respectful. Faith is sacred no matter what it is, and we need to have decency. So from one non believer, I say that I want a world in which you are completely able to not feel pressured or threatened by those on the outside. The vandalism and threats Cardon witnessed in California and the arson of meeting houses is inexcusable. We have to own that to some degree, in that we need to condemn it. At the same time I get where RFM was coming from with feeling like he didn’t need to provide another spiritual framework for those who experience change in their faith. What would that look like exactly? I don’t think secularism is the threat it was presented to be, because secularism isn’t necessarily a culture, -if it is hostile secularism, in that people are actively trying to destroy religion, I agree that is a force that we should oppose. But being able to criticize respectfully is crucial to freedom of thought, and is not the same as trying to tear down religion. We can criticize Islamic terrorism and be completely justified in doing so, and at the same time recognize the beauty that is also in Islam, and most Muslims are peaceful. I get that atheism is an absence of belief, but I think most people are still spiritual, in the sense that they believe there is meaning in life. Like RFM expressed, spirituality can simply be an unknown. There is a lot of beauty in the uncertainty, because we get to see life as a journey. I think the meaning in life is self evident, in the beauty of moments and relationships we can experience. In that sense there is real spiritual value to life regardless of a metaphysical backdrop. I look forward to the day when we can all focus on the common ground, and everyone feels like they have a place. It’s not easy being the only non-believing member of my family, but I want to help create a culture where I feel welcome in the church, and what you all have been doing In my view is moving us all in the right direction, so once again I sincerely thank you and look forward to more content, and when the hostile idiot antis are making life difficult, know that there are so many people that support you, and that your making the world a better place.
The culture REALLY has changed from RFM’s formative years. The restoration is ongoing and the church gets purer and outer… hope that makes sense. I don’t mean that in a braggy way… just thought there has been a huge shift toward love, acceptance, tolerance. People are done with the toxic perfectionism stuff. We are evolving and it is amazing to watch and be a part of.
@@JennieFur47 Yeah they don't say restored anymore. They say the restoration is a process. That's not what I was taught growing up, I'm 35. But it's essential as the church has a ton of changing to do.
@ Jen F, Christianity has been an open book since day 1, why waste your time with a $120,000,000,000 corporation that’s only now discovering Jesus and the New Testament?
Cardon, I’ve been playing your comments about “I will be my brothers keeper” on repeat. That was one of the best snippets of faithful debate on any video I’ve ever seen.
I thought that part of the debate was the most ridiculously hypocritical part of it! You have these idiots upset that someone is being truthful about their religion and this may cause distress. That the person telling them the truth should somehow be able to offer them something else and let them down easy. I call them idiots because any rational person would see that the problem was the church lying to them in the first place! It's the Mormon church that has been immoral, not RFM!
I really appreciate that everyone involved in this conversation was able to play a respectable role. This is perhaps the most difficult topic to discuss without emotion taking the wheel and directing it in a negative, nonproductive direction. I think that leaving the expectations that you will somehow manage to persuade others to change what they deeply believe, is important. The best you can hope for is that both parties gain a little more perspective of how and why the other side believes as they do. In hopes that each person possibly gave the other something to think about. More so the hope would be, that you yourself opened your mind to the possibility of now having something to think about.
I don’t think this was a respectful debate at all! Just look at those three men wearing body armor! The personal attacks were awful, especially when ganged up three to one. I don’t know what the hell those guys were thinking, but if I were a neutral party, I’d say the Mormons were the bad guys.
@@AJ-ib4oy I hope you’ll allow me to redact my comment. I guess what I was trying to say was, this was the most respectful I have seen the “Midnight Mormons” be. If you’ve ever seen them before, I think you’ll agree. I do agree with your reply.
I loved this guys! I cheered for both sides at different point in time. when kwaku said at the end really touched me when he said let the bitterness go. Last year I was struggling with my faith. For about a month I took my anger out on Exmo Reddit. I was really sad and then having hate on Reddit, really put me in a dark place. After a month, it struck me that I wasn’t any better. I slowly accepted the church for the good it does. The bitterness was let go and I enjoy church and life more. I still have questions but I strive for Christ like attributes instead of hate.
My summation of the MM positions on the whole - If we abandon the notion of the absolute truth of our faith, having nothing to replace it with is too frightening to contemplate
Which for the majority, could not be further from the truth. Just like most mormons are good people. Leaving mormonism, for most people, turns out perfectly fine
Yeah... that's the fear that's fostered in the church causing members to be terrified of raising their children outside of it. I also know multiple people who are still scared to leave or have their records removed in case it's all real and they can't get into celestial glory without their valid saving ordinances... the conditioning is heavy. If God doesn't give us the spirit of fear, why are so many afraid to leave? People say they could leave at any time, but see what happens when you stop paying your tithing... you lose your family for eternity unless you get back on track and pay for that premium, exclusive package.
@@CrustyRusty366that’s a good comment. LDS theology is insane but I know a ton of Mormons and they are legit great hearted people. Most of them anyway.
Ex-mo here. I appreciated this debate, and i appreciated listening to the midnight Mormons side of things, and understanding a little better where you're coming from. I thought Brad was the most likable person in the stage, and i want to be friends with him. I hope everybody watching this could understand the other side a little better and at the end of the day, be kind and love each other
Well thought out response. How long were you in the Church and how long have you been out of the church. Do you have another faith or agnostic now, or atheist? Just curious about your journey, since the comment is very thoughtful. I would have a ton more questions for you, so maybe don't awnser since I'll just ask more :)
@@clearstonewindows i truly love talking about my faith journey from the stance of being better understood and not from the stance of converting anyone. I was born in the church, and only really started questioning about 2 years ago. I'm agnostic now. I'd welcome any other questions you have!
@@clearstonewindows being agnostic simply means you are willing to admit that you don't know what happens after death. There could be a creator or creators, or there could not. And coming to terms with that reality. For some people, they need a religion to deal with their mortality. And for others, coming to terms with not knowing can be just as freeing. Religions have always existed of all kinds, most of which have people who deeply believe in them because of elevation emotion. Which is totally fine. Each individuals journey is different. My only beef with Mormonism and many other religions is the claim to be the one. In my opinion, if there is a creator, there is insurmountable evidence indicating he doesn't actually care what religious beliefs humans hold.
@@CrustyRusty366 Do you think you have free will? Also about the claim of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints... hypothetically speaking do let's say God did come down and talk to Joseph Smith, would you have a problem with him making that claim if it actually did happen?
I was going to say the same thing but exactly the opposite. Trying to turn a buddy on his friends by complimenting him and then revoking the complement is dirty. It is a bait of false unity with himself to ultimately leave Brad unified with no one. The more I think about it the sicker I get.
@@thomasveech7456 no his friends couldn’t help themselves and they attacked Corbin in such disturbing ways that Brad was as respectable as Corbin who just shared truths not attacks with the others.
Good stuff 👍everyone shone bright at least once. You guys look like you're being held hostage on a wacky 70s game show with your vests and the background colors. Just had a thought, you ever thought of having Cwic on your show?
Questions for Midnight Mormons: will you do a podcast about the debate? Was there any drama the day of? How was mingling with the crowd and eating after the debate? How was rfm after the debate? How was bill and what was your conversations with him? How did he receive being called out? Is there any plans of going on bills podcast or him going on your podcast? How did you feel the debate went? Cardon looked tense, where cardon is real loose on the podcast. Was there a reason? What did you feel went good and what went bad? Rfm what was a good view point and what went poorly for him? Rfm joke about someone being aroused. Haha you got to love rfm. Another way to break a awkward hug!!!!! Haha Love this debate!!!! Well done brethren!
Cardon wasn’t tense. He was asked a deeply spiritual question about faith and gave his testimony while reliving a moment he held his baby girl in his arms not knowing which breath would be her last. I won’t judge you for being snippy but if you have never been there, you haven’t been there.
@@kingster99me it was a different cardon I never saw before. His passion came out and I felt it. He did an amazing job. Kwaku, Brad, rfm, and the moderator also did an amazing job.
Thought it was hilarious when Kwaku forced his own side to disagree with him. Like, RFM is a bad guy for being a defense attorney who defends people's rights to a fair trial and due process... 2:07:53 LOL...
to: @Jeremy Robinson ... even Perry Mason was discriminating when he chose clients. nothing wrong with using your valuable time to help the people who deserve it the most. ... peace
Kwaku is literally the kind of person who would burn you at the stake for believing in science if he had grown up in the 1400's. It's honestly terrifying to see
@@harryabelpotter9630 In case you aren't aware, sometimes lawyers are forced to defend certain clients as public defenders. Every American has the right to a fair trial, no matter how obviously guilty they are.
Yeah… I was stunned he said that out loud. Anti-Mormons do not refute scripture but fulfill it, and he literally fulfilled the exact phraseology of CAIN when he slew Anel.
Just because RFM doesn’t give them the answer doesn’t mean he doesn’t care. I don’t think he articulated it as well as he could have but I think the point of coming out of Mormonism is to not have some other person tell you the path to take but that you get to figure out and decide what path to take. When you’ve been told your whole life that this “one prophet of god” has all the answers only to find out they don’t, it makes sense then to follow your own path and recognize there really are no prophets but each person needs to do their own journey. RFM. Is setting out the facts as he sees them and people can decide if they agree or disagree. But I think we need to get away from this idea that there is “only one” right way for people to live. It’s a difficult exercise when you’re taught in Mormonism that’s how life is.
Cardon, you were awesome. Srsly. All 3 of you were excellent. Half way thru you saw the crazy come thru RFM. Underneath, he's just fighting against a romanticized Hollywoodian church that doesn't exist. You three did great. I was nervous but you did great. Hostile opponent, hostile moderator, hostile crowd, and you nailed it. Don't you dare reign Kwaku in. He needs to be the guns. Loved it. You entered the lions den and slew the lion.
@@CJ-oc2ff I don't think anyone said that the Prophet has all the answers including the prophets. He is guided by God but he's still just a normal person. Anyone that believes otherwise is lying to themself.
@@danascully7358 So was the prophet guided by God when they put forth the policy of exclusion and then again by rescinding that policy only 3 years later after they lost thousands of members by resignation and several other of our LGBT brothers and sisters by suicide? The question is really what answers does the prophet today have? Other than minor policy changes and the huge policy of exclusion debacle there hasn't been a single new revelation in the church in over 100 years. But again they act like they do know all the answers. I was taught in primary, "Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, he knows the way!"
The Midnight Mormons used some surprisingly heterodox arguments which was interesting. Radio Free Mormon was also more compassionate than many ex-Mormons I've run into. Overall, I think this was a refreshing and helpful discussion.
People who don’t know the backstory to this “debate” don’t realize that RFM never claimed to represent the ExMo’s. This was really a personal throw down between the two podcasts as personalities.
THANK GOD!!! some else who calls it "row sham bo!" 😂 Instead of 'rock paper scissors"!!!! for the last few years of my life i thought i was crazy 😆😂😂😂✌️
Cardon, with respect to your answer on the first vision and creeds, how do you think the proclamation to the world on the family was created? It was drafted and then voted on by the Q15.
The difference between church councils and Catholic councils is that there may be a conflicting vote in councils of the Catholic church. All councils in the church of Jesus Christ are decided unanimously and by much prayer and fasting. If you knew anything about the Catholic church councils you would know this. Such notable examples of differences are the occurrence of formalistic debates. Most popularly, St Nicolas of Myra actually slapped someone during the council of Nice.
@@kohelet2446 I would look into correlation and how the modern doctrine of the church came into being. Now we have this practice of unanimity but it wasn't always so. For example, Brigham Young and Orson Pratt publicly debated the nature of intelligences. There was also public disagreement among the 12 on the practice of polygamy. Research the undertaking James Talmage had at trying to unify all the sometimes conflicting statements of past leaders.
I appreciate Brad’s clear cut answer to the Plural Marriage question. They follow mainstream interpretation so, wasn’t expecting a black & white response.
Speaking of RFM's biggest take-a-way - Here's an idea for you guys to talk on an upcoming podcast - "am i my brother's keeper?" Followed by in-depth discussions with questions such as "why should I care what anyone else does or believe in?" or "are we to do only what's right for us and forget everyone else?". 99 and 1. Love thy neighbor as thyself. When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. "I'm not responsible for others". Family. Secular and non-secular families talk about "family" and caring for each other, but why can't (or don't) show that to others? Lots of juicy stuff in that possible podcast.
I'm post faith crisis, active, hold a calling, but I no longer believe any of the truth claims that make the church "the one and only true" church. I make room for the church to be inspired tho. With that context, this debate pulled me in many directions. I would say it was a draw. Most of the debate did not address the biggest problems- Like epistemology, does being "good" matter more than truth, and the ethics of speaking for God. When it started to go that direction, RFM steered it back to the surface level issues and it deteriorated into ad hominem and "our side vs your side". I like RFM but I don't think he should have been the one to represent exmos. I find RFM's humor misplaced in many cases and in this debate it was no exception. It really detracted from the debate. With the MM- for the love of all that is good, get Kwaku off the stage. His rant on the history of seer stones was the most tangental non-starter I've ever heard around that subject.
I'm not and I've never been a Mormon, but I also keep myself open to accept that the Mormon Church might be inspired at some level. The problem is that the Church itself will never take this position and they seem to hold to the idea that their history, what the BoM is, and how it came to be, is 100% true, which has come to bite them in the past when people have found out that they were lying or hiding things.
As popular as that position might be, there really is no middle ground. It's either true, or it's filled with a multitude of conspirators. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that the entire Smith family was in on it, along with the 3 and 8 witnesses. I can't even get my brothers together for Thanksgiving, let alone for a religious movement/lifestyle.
(protestant Christian here) I'd suggest that there is a truth that the LDS church falsely built upon. Therefore, there are some truths about the LDS church - however those are the truths that historic Christianity stands firmly upon. There is only one "true church" out there, and it's the universal body of believers who believe and have faith in Jesus Christ (LDS Jesus is different than the Jesus of the Bible)
Brad at approx. 2:18:19 ALL revelations to the prophets and apostles have to be agreed on by all of the members of the top 15. So LDS doctrine is voted on and no revelation can be announced unless all agree. What is the point of having a prophet who can receive revelation about his church if he then has to go and meet with the others and they have to agree that it is a revelation. If you are in doubt about this go back and review the conference talk(s) where they say that it can take years for a revelation to be announced to the church. NOT revelation in my view and one of the many factors that caused me to become a non-believer in the restored gospel of the LDS church.
RFM is the ultimate troll ..... I am a boomer and a few years older than RFM, Corbin Volluz, and I joined the Church one year before Mr. Volluz did and I can tell you that Corgin V. does not know what he is talking about ~ all Volluz had to do was read the Church magazine the Ensign and Volluz would have know about the rock in the hat way back in 1977. Same for the rest of Volluz's false accusations.
It’s so sad to witness the continued ridiculousness and hypocrisy and ignorance.... but hey … keep responding .. your doing so well proving the Mormon “self inflicted” blindness and deafness. The Mormon church literally has resulted in 400+ denominations over its 180+ history - a fragmentation rate that will easily surpass Non-Mormon, mainstream Christian denominationalism!! (see, “List of Denominations in the Latter Day Saint Movement”; also Steven L. Shields, “Divergent Paths of the Restoration”) ... but of course you’ll just do the usual... ignore and excuse... ignore and excuse. So so sad. We have researched and spoken personally to many “church of the first born Mormons”, “fundamentalist Mormons”, “reorganized LDS Mormons”, “Elijah message Mormons”, independent Mormon fundamentalists, centennial park Mormons, “LDS Mormons” and many other Mormon denominations and sects ... amazingly ALL with the same testimony as yours ... what the??? All of them literally saying “their prophet is the only true and living prophet on earth today”, and “their church is the only true church.” Yet they are ALL completely different Mormon denominations ... ALL using the Book of Mormon as their main scripture... And you know the really sad thing? They ALL say that each of the other “Mormon” churches are “apostate” churches that are led by Satan. Again … What the? So tell us ... which “Mormon church” is the “one true church” with the “one true prophet”??? Seriously ... they all have the glorious Book of Mormon.. so which one is true? Oh ya ... it’s of course yours right ? Oh boy ... so so hypocritical … yet so so revealing. The hypocrisy is literally breathtaking ... and not only that ... the statistics show Mormonism’s rate of fragmentation has been so high over the past 180 years - that in 2000 years (if the fragmentation rate continues) there will be easily over 100,000 different Mormon denominations! Far surpassing all the different Christian denominations ... what the? Again ... Mormonism is proven ... time and time again ... to be a totally and completely “another gospel” (Gal 1:8-9) teaching a “false christ” by “false prophets” who “deceive the elect with great signs and wonders.” (Matt 24:24) Wake up ... Mormonism is a “Quasi Christian Cult” and Mormons don’t even know it. So sad. Yet so revealing!
59:47 Witbeck: "I do find it interesting... you said so little about polygamy, I feel like there's a ton to say" RFM: "None of it's any good" - audience laughs Kwaku: "Hey, uh, I'm a product of polygamy. I think I'm pretty good" - audience groans
Kwaku is so utterly self-absorbed that he thinks being a product of polygamy is sufficient evidence of its goodness. Women are not even remotely satisfied with that ridiculous answer to a very harmful practice.
@@bradwitbeck Questions maybe you could address on the show. Do you believe other people can have spiritual or emotional experiences outside mormonism. I will guess your answer is yes. Do you believe these experiences always have to do with the BOM, Jesus, or anything Christianity related? I will guess your answer is no. Could believers in Islam have spiritual experiences related to Allah? Could Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans have spiritual or emotional experiences relating to their beliefs in Osiris, Zeus, or Jupiter? I don't know what your answer will be. The point that i am trying to make is that the spirit most likely does not have anything to do with truth and certainly does not testify of one uniform truth in the world. Maybe it could be and guide to each individual personally? But that would imply that all the other religions and Gods are also true and real. The spirit, or emotional moments when we watch movies, or hear sad or heroic stories, should just be appreciated for what it is. In my opinion, it is silly to attach uniform world and universal truth to emotional experiences. And people who say they don't know what is going to happen after death, are just being more honest than you. Don't pretend to know because you an emotional experience. Sure, accept it as your personal truth, but limit it to that.
That ending filled me with so much love. I couldn't help but get emotional. Gave my dad a really long hug afterwards, and it's inspired me to be more Christ like. I'm sure we all will be wrong in certain areas when we die and meet Christ, but I believe that when we are most Christ like at the end of the video, we will know his Gospel better, and any LGBTQ+ issues that might not be entirely understood yet and though we as people make alot of assumptions based off of very little knowledge at times, those issues will be made okay as we live like Jesus in the end of this video. Every answer will be solved eventually especially revelation whyse the more we really and earnestly act like Jesus would act. That is the answer to most problems. I've seen angels and I've felt Christ's physical hands in the church of Jesus Christ, I've heard heavenly father's voice and I've experienced so many blessings in his church, but that was when I was really living a Christ centered life and only then. Theirs many controversial things, but I do know that we do live after this life, I know because of my grandparents who died, and because Jesus Christ taught me that. The most important thing to Christ is that we love like Jesus loved and that will direct all doctrine to it's rightful place that we may have misunderstood and other churches may have understood or misunderstood. We all have growing to do, but the most important thing to Christ is that we are loving each other ❤️ and he's willing to help us through the eternitys, through our understanding and all if we will let him. Jesus works with other churches as well, and even angels who have authority through someone who has a body who might not have authority can help do ordinances in other churches, Jesus Christ answers their prayers to. But I do have a strong belief in the foundation and preisthood that the church of Jesus Christ has authority of for sure, for sure, and like Joseph Smith said before he died, the church of Jesus Christ is part of the body of Christ with all of the other churches in Jesus Christs Name. I love church history, and I especially love the part before Joseph Smith died where he said those things, and the Christ like love Joseph Smith often showed. I understand the perspective of the critic, and I understand the perspective of the believer. But from my experience Joseph Smith wasnt perfect but he was really striving to be like Jesus Christ and thats what I am for to, Joseph Smith though he can easily be perceived as many things cause of the complications of history and records helped point me to Jesus Christ and taught me many precious truths Jesus Christ and the holy ghost In personage have taught me and many others. I say all of these things in the sacred name of Jesus Christ Amen.
@@filmmakerdude hey man thats just what they said. You're welcome to think whatever but to think Latter-day Saints aren't a persecuted group in modern times just doesn't reflect whats actually happening. It was either this november or the october that just passed 70 missionaries were held hostage at a zone conference in (I want to say) mexico by guys with guns. To my knowledge everyone survived. And chapels get burned down more often than the news will tell you, and that goes for a lot of religions, not just the saints.
@@Sunshine-eo2sp Of course thats what they said...I bet you don't even believe they really had valid death threats to warrant bullet proof vests. I'm LDS for 55 years now, I assume you know LDS history that LDS are guilty of their own fair share of persecution to the black people and LGBTQ. LDS arent guiltless of persecution. Try being black or gay. LDS are the ones with the guns and believe they are right and everyone else is wrong...that's why the missionaries are out to try and convert the non believers correct?
I think this really allowed everyone to open up and expose what they truly believe. Some beliefs were heartwarming and sweet while others were cringeworthy and bitter. I was on the edge of my seat the WHOLE TIME. Great entertainment. My favorite quote was the description of a lack of belief or belief in nothing aka Nihilism being "scorched f*cking earth". So many emotions. I'll probably watch it again.
it was entertaining I suppose, but sharing what you believe isn't the purpose of a debate; that's for testimony meetings. Debates are to share WHY you think your position is the correct one, and I think the Midnight Mormons completely failed on that front. Their arguments all seemed to boil down to hope. If you disagree with that assessment, let me know what you think was their best argument explaining who one should conclude the church is true.
@@kenhilker2507 I'll have to watch it again and get back to you. Honestly, I didn't watch it to be convinced, rather to see how it would all go down. It was a spectacular show.
You sound jealous Dan. Also, you accidentally copied and pasted the same criticism you’ve given every person that ever disagreed with you… these computer keyboards are a lot tougher than typewriters aren’t they?
@@danvogel6802 I hope you can at least agree we answered the questions asked? I don’t think fallacious appeals to emotion, moralizing, or sermonizing properly characterizes our responses. We were asked for our personal thoughts and reasons multiple times, not for documents and evidence. If we had been, perhaps the debate would have been more to your liking. I actually tried to address this by asking to adjust the structure to be for or against certain resolutions so that we could get more deeply into specific topics, but RFM said I was just trying to monkey with things. In the end, I’m grateful for the conversation Shawn started here. I think it’s actually really productive. It certainly wasn’t a traditional debate, so I understand the disappointment if that’s what you were looking for coming into this, but I think it was refreshing. Perhaps another time we can have a more traditional debate where we aren’t asked for our personal thoughts and feeling about things, and then we can have a more direct conversation about truth claims and specific points of history.
Did you expect this to be of any real substance, Dan? This was a foolish idea from the start. The second these attention whores showed up in vests, I knew this was going to be a farce, and it was.
Man, so much to comment on this video! RFM's last remark about, "if you want to stay in the church, don't study," got me thinking: Don Bradley could've DESTROYED this guy during the debate!
This debate was actually quite entertaining and interesting. Overall, both sides did great job representing themselves. Props to all 4 and the moderator. My concerns for the MMs: Being skeptical of extraordinary claims is not cynicism. Cynicism is toxic, agreed. Skepticism is foundational to agency, knowledge and protection against believing in false things (ie magic.) Anyone who suggests you doubt your conscience and reason (aka your doubts) - beware. Agnostics and atheists are not more sad or immoral. Saying so is a fragile, false fear tactic. Ask the google and see what the data has to say on the topic. My agnostic life as a devoted husband and father and friend also says otherwise. For RFM: When people are faced with disturbing truths about their belief system and leave it, they often do need to reconstruct a healthy, new world view. Though it isn’t RFM’s responsibility to provide this, acknowledging the importance and highlighting some resources would have been helpful. Though he did make me laugh out loud many times, the ‘don’t drop the soap’ joke was poor taste and should be apologized for, IMO.
Well done. Thought this went well. Cardon normally acts as discussion facilitator as the host of the show and it was really cool to see him use personal experiences to tie to his defense arguments. I thought his responses were all well said. Brad kept RFM's logical flaws honest and wouldn't let him get away with poor arguments. It's also clear the exmos want to pull Brad away from the other two because they see Brad as they saw fair: a person who will always turn the other cheek to the exmo punches. But now that the three of you are punching back they are calling foul and will attempt to divide you. Don't let them. Kwaku did an awesome job connecting the dots between religion and spirituality. RFM loves the idea of younger people losing their faith in droves, but the younger generation is actually very spiritual and are searching for authenticity. Loved that. Kudos to the four of you for having this discussion. Hope to see more of these.
I am a member. I loved this debate especially the part where you talk about knowing and how you were getting somewhere with that and he try to turn it off. Also about critizing the church he apprantly has never met a Mormon or a Latter day Saint that is a Democrate we critize all the time.
This debate means so much to me. I see something that reminds me of something I know. It’s hard to share and explain with others who don’t but when you see the MM guy on the far right talking, you can see someone who has gone through it and still painstakingly stands and fights while you see the RFM guy just waiting to sink his teeth in. Lol this isn’t easy to explain, but the MM guy is me and the RFM guy is my ex landlord, a Protestant pastor who presumed to assert what he believed was his authority over me and my life and condescend to me and guilt trip me. That was a battle. As his tenant it was extremely uncomfortably but I stood my shaky ground none the less. I got out of there as well, but there is a certain loneliness that can set in when a grown man stands before and presumes to assert his dominance. I knew I was right though. This guy was trying to rule me and bully me but I knew better than to take it because God has given us all agency and there is no way in heck that it is mandatory to take what someone is dishing out. That was a pivotal moment in my life when I told him that he didn’t have that kind of authority over me. He didn’t know what to say.
I don’t think that Christ would intimidate people into belief, so don’t listen to people like that. I don’t believe in believing someone just because they have a big name or big credentials.
This was unreal. YOU survived prop 8? Prop 8 was a disgusting, propaganda filled movement that was trying to legally disenfranchise gay people whether they be in the church or not. If you supported it, you are a bigot. People left bad yelp reviews? That’s being “brutalized”? LOOK AT WHAT YOUR OWN FUCKING CHURCH IS DOING. I hope any business where the leaders supported prop 8 went under. I don’t want bigots like that, willing to go the state and federal level to disenfranchise their existence, in my community, period.
Gays have ALL of the cultural (and now governmental) support. Standing up against gay marriage was brave then and it's even more brave now. Being gay isn't brave. It's celebrated.
Yeah, he said that he had to help clean up after the Prop 8 protests, while not saying that the church's position on that issue contributed to the reasons for the protests in the first place. And the church's stance on the issue lost the debate.
Gaynor Wells, you mad me so thankful I am no longer a member with your comment. Why is personal insult so often the first refuge of the those who constantly prattle on about being Christlike?
@@wesanderikaoneal9930 Not all of the Lord's champions are prophets. Their just great warriors (like Teacum) who are the young men at the gates who do not tolerate attacks against the people they love. So as far as I'm concerned, Kwaku rocks the socks off of the enemies of the faith. Go get em Kwaku.
@@khemingw I would assume that, unless god is an awful being, he would want more level-headed/compassionate types to defend his “faith” Less personal attacks and more listening/understanding
I made a comment two days ago that might have been deleted. I congratulated Kwaku on apparently expressing his view that there might be LGBT couples in the celestial kingdom. I'm just curious if MM deleted it, or if I accidentally deleted it myself. Oh, just found I made the comment on "The Heart of the Matter Post which used the same background.
It very well may be. But If you read section 132, people that don't marry don't have increased. Also isn't it crazy how frenzied everyone is right now about LGBTQX right now?
Wow I gained my testimony of the Book of Mormon the same day Brad! Same thing happened to me too! I put off the challenge until that day too and gained my testimony as I read Ether 12.
The only part I didn’t like was when ‘Kwakiutl said all the vitriol was coming from your side. Brother that goes both ways. He exhibited it while accusing them of it.
@@swaneespeedramsey6080 We (my side) may grant Kwaku's vitriol since you appear to grant Corbin's vitriol. Bro. Shawn attained detente from MM, but RFM refused pause. Bummer for goodness, huh?
I just listened to this whole debate, if you want to call it that, on a drive up to coast. I was shocked ho how much church history RFM is mixed up with. He wouldn't last too long with a real LDS church historian. For example he brings up the "seer stone" problem. And that the church never mentions the "seer stone". Doctrines of Salvation Volume 3 Page 225 Jospeh Field Smith discusses the seer stone and that Joseph Smith used this to continue to translate the BOM after the 116 pages went missing and the Urim and Thumin were returned to Moroni. That's just one thing that stood out. The is no official story of JFS discovering the alternative first vision accounts then "Hidding" them. It's an assumption at best. And so on and so on. Towards the end his whole rant about "how to stay mormon" Is just so terrible condescending and aroagant. As if ALL LDS who study the gospel or who ever had a faith crisis leave the church. It's just unreal. "And if they are not interested in Mormonism they move onto the next target" Isn't that all of life works? If a person isn't interested in something you don't keep shoving it down their throats? What's funny is the applause that that sound bite got RFM. What strikes me the most, again, is the arrogance of this man. I find the LDS Temple one of my most precious places on earth to visit and yet he admitted he could never feel to purpose of the temple. This tells me, his demons began early on. He thinks the LDS church is false and admits he's completely agnostic. His issue is not with The Book of Mormon, it's with God. It was Christ who first declared in John Ch 10, one shperherd one fold NOT Jospeh Smith in 1820. RFM has one goal and one goal only which is to tear down. He can't observe or admit that there have been hundreds of thousands of fartiful LDS members (if not millions) who have lived on this planet, who are much more learned and smarter than him that know the LDS church is the one true restored gospel on this earth today. So how dare he RANT on "how to stay mormon" when his whole rant is terribly flawed.
I really enjoyed this debate. I’m a faithful member of the Church and I feel like I’ve come across and digested basically all of the commonest attacks against the Church. I find the truth claims of the church more compelling than the counter arguments in general. I will say that it was great to hear someone come up with their most important attacks, or what they feel is most persuasive. What stood out to me most was what RFM said about not feeling any responsibility to provide a “so now what” for those who leave Christianity, or even theism. It really is scorched earth. Anyway, loved the debate and the moderator did an excellent job. So many good arguments for and against were presented.
It’s so sad to witness the continued ridiculousness and hypocrisy and ignorance.... but hey … keep responding .. your doing so well proving the Mormon “self inflicted” blindness and deafness. The Mormon church literally has resulted in 400+ denominations over its 180+ history - a fragmentation rate that will easily surpass Non-Mormon, mainstream Christian denominationalism!! (see, “List of Denominations in the Latter Day Saint Movement”; also Steven L. Shields, “Divergent Paths of the Restoration”) ... but of course you’ll just do the usual... ignore and excuse... ignore and excuse. So so sad. We have researched and spoken personally to many “church of the first born Mormons”, “fundamentalist Mormons”, “reorganized LDS Mormons”, “Elijah message Mormons”, independent Mormon fundamentalists, centennial park Mormons, “LDS Mormons” and many other Mormon denominations and sects ... amazingly ALL with the same testimony as yours ... what the??? All of them literally saying “their prophet is the only true and living prophet on earth today”, and “their church is the only true church.” Yet they are ALL completely different Mormon denominations ... ALL using the Book of Mormon as their main scripture... And you know the really sad thing? They ALL say that each of the other “Mormon” churches are “apostate” churches that are led by Satan. Again … What the? So tell us ... which “Mormon church” is the “one true church” with the “one true prophet”??? Seriously ... they all have the glorious Book of Mormon.. so which one is true? Oh ya ... it’s of course yours right ? Oh boy ... so so hypocritical … yet so so revealing. The hypocrisy is literally breathtaking ... and not only that ... the statistics show Mormonism’s rate of fragmentation has been so high over the past 180 years - that in 2000 years (if the fragmentation rate continues) there will be easily over 100,000 different Mormon denominations! Far surpassing all the different Christian denominations ... what the? Again ... Mormonism is proven ... time and time again ... to be a totally and completely “another gospel” (Gal 1:8-9) teaching a “false christ” by “false prophets” who “deceive the elect with great signs and wonders.” (Matt 24:24) Wake up ... Mormonism is a “Quasi Christian Cult” and Mormons don’t even know it. So sad. Yet so revealing!
This was the very first “Mormon” content I ever saw on RU-vid and the first part where Midnight Mormons appealed to spirituality, rather than empirical evidence, had me HOOKED. Thank you for sharing
Almost every religion appeals to spirituality or emotions. An Evangelical Christian can bear you his testimony that his brand of Christianity is the correct one, just as you can that Mormonism is the true one. A Scientologist or a Jehovah's Witness can do the same thing. I've heard fundamentalist Mormon polygamists bear their testimonies that their version of Mormonism is the "one true" one. That being the case, it's far more rational to consider the actual facts of religious claims and premises, rather than relying on "spirituality" or emotional feelings.
@@randyjordan5521 agreed that the appeal to spirituality isn’t unique. However, appealing to spirituality rather than empiricism or rationalism is not common in the Latter-Day Saint debate space-that’s what caught my attention. Your claim about an epistemology being “far more rational to consider the actual facts” remains to be seen but seems like it’s a common opinion
OMGosh Guys! I am SO enjoying your content! Just got through listening to this episode. RFO may have "graduated" from Mormonism, but he's flunking exaltation.😆
Hey, a great idea for a show: Muslims and Mormons. What we have in common. I have a couple of Muslim buddies and we talk religion all the time. Get a mullah on the show and go at it. Trust me. They will be really cool on the show! If you can't get a Muslim, see if Dan Peterson isn't busy.
Anyone that knows true doctrine knows that the ultimate One World religion will include Muslims and mormon alongside with the catholics in the united under the abrahamic religions. The true church will be persecuted and raptured. But the whore and those that will "unite" but not in His name will follow the antichrist. Any of these religions are not through the Son and are not true it has nothing to do with works.
In my view one of the most dangerous things in the world is one-sidedness, because usually that means that real and authentic experiences of others get overseen... I know people who's lifes were saved by discovering their faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints, and I have seen the opposite happening.. and so that leaves the question what can be done about it? I think the answer will and should always be to take a honest look at both sides and be honest about things... Personally I dont think it would harm the church to adress the rather difficult topics, admitting that not everything every leader of the church ever did was without error.. rather the opposite, I think that it would strengthen the faith of many.. I loved how my mission president even wrote a book for us missionaries that adressed many of the things many members never heard of... Most of all, thank you guys for doing this great work...
The Church embraced the term “Mormon” for many many years… they even ran nationwide commercials in the 90’s literally saying “we’re the Mormon’s”. Now they have turned away from the word Mormons for reasons I’m not aware of. Just another change the church has done, like so many others
@@dannyutah3859 I know the history of the term, however I’m curious why the dude who uses his platform to bash the LDS church uses the term in the actual title of his channel … deceptive and disrespectful
I like the comment that we should know European history. I know European history very well, including the part of European history where people were killed by the christian church if they didn’t leave their cultural/native religion behind and convert to christianity.
Few of questions for the MM trio. 1. Is your concern for your safety so great that you always go around in armored vests? And if not why? 2. Does Kuaku think people convicted of crimes or that are petitioning the court are entitled to competent defense council? 3. Has Kwaku every expressed an issue with Mormon church friendly law firms defending accused sexual abusers? 4. Should Mormon church leaders be called out when they blatantly lie or as Brad once called it, "represented things as they saw it from their perspective". 5. Is belief in any religion, even though it may be false, better than no religious belief at all.
1. I believe it was joke because they are walking into a war zone during the debate. 2. I would assume so. Because you are innocent until found guilty. 3. If there wasn't ppl trying to get a free dollar from the church and ppl trying to destroy the church we wouldn't be talking about it also the church or doctrine is perfect but the people in it not and those that become abuser will be judged by God and very sad for them in the next life. Why is the church being held responsible for peoples dumb choices 4. I don't think leaders blatantly lie. Can't believe what some people say. 5. I would say yes a religion is better than no religion but on the same breath it could be toxic depending what that religion teaches. Hope I don't step on toes answer these
I definitely prefer the dialogue approach over debate. That bit in the middle where you were just talk was great! But because of the format, there were some really cringe worthy moments from both parties. Dialogue allows both parties to talk about the issue and find common ground. Debate is all about attack and defense.
this is why Bill Reel declined the offer to debate. He is a long format, one topic at a time, conversation-centric type of person. He wasn't "chickening out" he wanted to do exactly what the segment did, but with a focused topic
@@corystephens1703 if that’s what he wanted, we might have agreed, but what he offered was much more of an interrogation, where he asks all of the questions. Not really a conversation.
There was some rough patches (especially in the beginning), but overall I thought you guys did a great job. You took the time to answer the questions with sincerity, whereas I felt RFM was just going through the CES Letter
I’m returning to the church after being away for 39 years and have struggled with much in my life. I often wonder about, if I had remained active, would I have had a more joyful life. The answer is yes. What stands out most to me about this debate is that those that seek to destroy the church and its members take no responsibility or do they offer a better alternative. The church is not perfect because of man’s imperfections but because of this it has the ability to become more like what are Heavenly Father wants us to be. Watching this debate underscores that there is no such room for growth on the other side.
Wishing you the very best. Leaving the exmo community can be very traumatic. If you weren’t part of it good for you. I’m battling with a belief in god at all so I see the side of RFM but don’t agree with his cynicism and anger and desire to only bring down people of faith. This is my first time hearing about and of RFM and because of his sourness and rancor and conniving spirit I won’t ever listen to more from him. Please pray for me, I don’t want to become what I saw on display from RFM and what I see from most exmo community cult members.
@@dcarts5616 Leaving the MORMON community can be very traumatic. Also, I don't see how you can call out RFM being upset when Kwaiko (or however you spell his name) was using ad hominem attacks. Why is Kwaiko's cynicism valid and RFM's isn't?
@@halcyon2017 a simple Google search can teach you how to spell Kwaku El, nice dismissal of him though, really nice lol. The fighting is silly. Nothing that RFM, JD, JH, MS or any of the faith deconstructionist grifters do is new, just differs tactics and periods of success. I see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary in those who leave any types of faith, any type of community, or groups where there are standards of ANY sort. I just watched a video about leaving college and the abuses and stresses and demands and trauma suffered while at the university level institution. It was interesting to see the similarities and the pettiness.
@@dcarts5616 And look at how you dismiss the deconstruction community. Do you look at the Mormon community with the same lenses? Or is that only reserved for people who don't think the way you do? Do people not need support after leaving abusive relationships?
A question for those that sided with Midnight Mormons in this debate; What's more important to you? A: Believing a historical claim is true because the claim is the best reconstruction of what most likely happened in the past, based on the available empirical evidence. B: believing a historical claim is true because that belief provides value in your daily life, regardless of what the empirical evidence indicates.
I think A matters. But if I'm being honest, I want the Church to be True. No other faith, including standard Christianity, has such a wonderful narrative about life and its purpose. I will also say that while I wish I was more spiritual, the thing that attracts me the most is Logos. Logic and Reason bring me to God. There is no tenable position outside of faith.
@@nwkitesurfer Thanks for the response! Hypothetically, you were to become convinced that the empirical evidence pointed to the BoM claims being untrue, would the narrative of the church be sufficient to sustain your belief? Faith can be a tricky word. Can you elaborate what you mean by 'faith' in that last sentence?
@@kenhilker2507 I wrote a considerable answer, then lost it. So I'm going to shorten this a bit. The answer is Yes, the narrative of the Church would sustain me. I find empiricism, materialism, and atheism self-refuting. I question the self-awareness of any who embark on these paths of fast-food religion. To reference Dune, in this life, we all have the gom jabber at our necks, and we are proving by our choices of thought and deed whether or not we are animals or children of God. Guess who's holding the gom jabber? We are! We are holding it to our own necks. Listen to how RFM describes the relationship of father, mother, and child, and you tell me if he's about to prick his neck. Simply put, we all get to decide our faith (or lack thereof), and even if a bunch of scammers ran this Church, everything I have learned has been good. I will only ever believe in a religion that tells me to "prove all things and hold fast to that which is good" and where the fundamental tenant of our faith is to embrace ALL truth, "come whence it may." (JS)
@@nwkitesurfer Can you help me understand what appears to be a contradiction? You said you'll only follow a religion which says to "prove all things", but you also said yes, you'd stay in a religion even if its historical claims were to be proven false. How do you reconcile those two statements?
Watched the whole debate. First of all: stellar moderator. Very fair and situated between both positions. I've read the comments and am appalled at how many people don't know what ad hominem is. Kwaku was simply holding RFM to his own standard. This is a tactic that I call "holding up a mirror". When RFM would express phony umbrage, Kwaku would say "Oh really? That's your standard is it? What about when you said/did. . ." and proceeded to expose the hypocrisy. This is one thing I loved about pres Trump. He'd mirror the very behavior used against him, and his attackers would gasp and harrumph upon receiving the very treatment they dish out. People who are accustomed to attacking without receiving reprisals tend to get uppity when their victims throw it right back at them. Sadly, they're usually blind to the irony.
They sure lean forward and stick out their heads for people wearing a bulletproof vest in fear. Notice the lack of security too; that overkill gives off incredibly poor optics.
@@cabbagebaker I think they align. He wasn’t talking about temple sealings here, at least the way I understood it. The two statements seemed in agreement to me.
@@bradwitbeck Hmmm, that could be a reasonable distinction I suppose. Maybe a tad generous. But I've come to expect that from you, Brad (that might sound like a dig but it's a compliment! 😆)
@@cabbagebaker Oh I totally get it haha. And I'll take it as a compliment lol. I get called a lot of things that could either be a compliment or a dig - sensitive, nice, etc. haha. And you know what, sometimes they're valid criticisms :D But yeah, most of the people who I know that also know Kwaku understood what he meant there, but there were others who thought he was being contradictory. Maybe we can do an episode on it to help clear it up.
What a shame that the Mormons could not put up a united front. One says marriage extends to same sex couples, another says he is proud of his polygamous roots. The other says it is a truly weird flaw that needs to be repented of.
I was looking into RFM's claim, about how "difficult" it is to find the church's gospel topics essays. So I decided to use the search bar on the church's website. I typed "polygamy". The gospel topics essay was the 2nd link. Rather easy to find. Nice try RFM.
One of the biggest problems is that the immaturity of certain members and non members is usually the loudest and gets the most attention the fastest and this immaturity says " why aren't things going the way I want them to and why did this happen this way!?" RFM is giving that immaturity a voice and saying that that immaturity is actually right when clearly it isn't.
