(Apparently I just leave four hundred comments on these now) The idea of Kelsier remaining a normal person but attaining the power and notoriety of the shards is hilarious, because it sets him up as a parallel to Hoid, which both of them would hate.
Haha, you can definitely tell Alyx is the hater of the group. She interprets everything about Kelsier in the worst possible light. That's not a complaint, it's a fun contrast to Evgeni.
A Kelsier episode with Alyx? This is going to be fun... Although, yeah, while I definitely lean more towards Evgeni's perception of Kelsier - I think labels such as good or bad are too difficult to place on the man, he's a third party who's willing to do what it takes to save his planet, even if it means breaking a few skulls or doing things that could be unsavory (like, if you have heinous criminals in prison for first-degree murder or other similar terrible crimes, is it so wrong to use them for Hemalurgy experiments? Is it wrong to use people on death row for Hemalurgy experiments? I think there are arguments for both sides there). I also agree with David that Kelsier is definitely putting on a bit of a front for Marasi - he's acting more selfless/benign/helpful than he actually is, when in reality he's more morally gray.
And it's my longest *comment* ever! Argent: ... genuine affection toward Twinsoul. Me: ... who is a noble, apparently a king! Kelsier seems to have lost some of his prejudice against aristocrats. 0:42, Jess talks about how Cognitive Shadows who are worshiped can have their Cognitive aspect (which is all they normally are!) affected. Two things; -Marsh is literally worshiped as Death! Granted, we don't know if a hemalurgic construct is the same as a Cognitive Shadow. -Vasher/Warbreaker/Peacegiver/Kalad/Strifelover/Talaxin is worshiped in many aspects. Would coming to Roshar and being Zahel also shield him from the distorting effects of worship? Does having multiple worshipped identities on Nalthis help him not lose his identity (or Identity)? And note that Vasher "hate[s] gods". That would include Kelsier as the Survivor, of course. Brandon says Kelsier has changed "slightly" over the centuries: wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15840 0:48 Harmony says lerasium won't work for Kelsier in his current state. Harmony has also been lying to Kelsier about other things, going back to literally the first time they spoke after the Ascension of Harmony. 1:10 You forgot that Hoid has also burned lerasium. 02:36 Alyx on "pure" atium ... remember how in The Hero of Ages, we learn that burning atium can weaken Ruin? What if Sazed hopes to hoard lerasium (thus not weakening Preservation) while having allomancers and Marsh burn some of the atium (thus weakening Ruin), which would free him to act and Preserve. And then Kelsier ruins it by stealing the lerasium and making a bunch of Mistborn, forcing Discord unintentionally. I think that Brandon has a real problem with extreme versions of Jeremy Bentham's utilitarianism. (Yes, I think Professor Sanderson is intellectual enough to be thinking of Bentham.) Utilitarianism is encapsulated as "Greatest good for the greatest number." Taken to the extremes favored by some on the American right these days, it means that the suffering of the few doesn't matter, if it is good for a large enough majority. Kelsier is an extreme utilitarian. Raboniel is slightly (but only slightly) more extreme. Taravangian is bizarrely extreme, even worse than Raboniel. Note: this means I think Kelsier was always meant to be the ubervillain of the Cosmere. Note that Hrathen justifies his atrocities by utilitarianism, but is redeemed when he abandons it to protect an individual person. Hoid tries to be a utilitarian, but fails because he is too compassionate to actually stand by and watch people suffer (most of the time).
I probably wouldn’t say he has a problem with utilitarianism, more I think it’s very deliberate on Brandon’s part and is just something he likes exploring. Excellent points about Marsh and Vasher!
2:12:10 I think part of the problem is that Brandon wrote a world where eugenics is a valid mechanism to create ubermensch, which was probably just not a good idea from a meta writing standpoint as it relates to real world themes we take from his stories into the real world. It puts kelsier in a position where he has to admit that eugenics is fundamentally evil, but he also has to concede that it works within the logic of this story. I think it’s gross in a way Sanderson wasn’t anticipating.
Ok. What if, Harmonium as etmetal is capable of using feruchemy but DISCORDIUM as etmetal is capable of using allomancy. Feruchemy has always been described as balance whereas allomancy requires the consumption of metal. And that’s why it’s Called harmonium instead of Sazedium or something so we’ll be able to more easily distinguish between the two
Kelsier is not bad, i don't know why people picture him like the worst character in the cosmere. He is manipulative and utilitarian, but has good ideals and morals, he will do whatever necessary for what he believes and part of it for sure is for himself but a small part
Kelsier is both good and bad in equal parts, he's always had more Ruin then Preservation in him but he's always wanted to presurve not ruin. Will this get him in trouble? Probably and it already has several times but his intentions are good. In other ways he's someone who wants to be good and others to see him as good but is often very bad.
What if, after the catacendre, there were a bunch of hemalurgic spikes lying around that used to belong to steel inquisitors. A spike doesn't lose it's power when the host dies, Wax and Wayne could reuse spikes. Inquisitors used both allomantic and feruchemical spikes, so perhaps Kelsier and Spook forged the bands of mourning from leftover spikes. Real waste to just leave them, especially after Harmony removed the possibility for mistborn and full feruchemists to be born. Over 50-100 years it should've been possible to find a nicrosil ferring to charge the bands with investiture and other ferrings to charge all the other metalminds. I'm also curious of why they chose the shape of a spearhead, could the bands of mourning be a huge combined hemalurgic spike? And Kelsier sneaked around and stabbed people to steal their power xD
What if Sazed is the opposite of predictions and that’s the twist. He might become Discord or…he preps for Roshars fall and plans to help defeat Odium along with the rest of the Cosmere.
25:00 Kelsier is a Mistborn. No Mistborn will see himself or herself as an equal to the Muggels. And in a sense he is not. Scadrial lacks the prerequisites for true egalitarianism. 25:30 Leras was not Scadrian. 29:00 Kelsier held Preservation. He _was_ a god. 42:00 They are preserving him. Kelsier _ought_ to change. He saw 90% of his world die. He got half his crew killed. He triggered his surrogate daughter's death. He lives in a totally different environment. He died. He spent years in solitary isolation. He was tortured. The man should be a case of PTSD. 48:30 If you take him literally in the epilogue his soul is stapled to his bones. Not to his whole body. 1:13:30 Taken literally again the epilogue does not rule out that Kelsier is a feruchemist. He can't burn metals. If you cannot do that the Bands are useless to you. 1:29:30 If I take this to the logical conclusion, I'd have to assume that his loss of powers is recent, really recent. 1:50:00 You can see protecting Scadrial as an ideological goal, putting the Ghostbloods into the place of agents of man _against_ the Shards. 1:53:00 Lift is old enough to be a Knight Radiant. She is ligteyed in a sense. A noble. Not necessarily a member of a protected class in his view. 2:02:00 That was a competent military decision to make. The Ghostbloods are paramilitary. Dalinar or Jasnah would have made the same decision. Marasi almost botched the mission, if not for capabilities of a member she did not know about. It was a mistake objectively. A noble mistake, bu a mistake. 2:07:00 Breeding Metalborn is an obvious idea. Straff Venture had it. The Terris did it. Rashek knew he had to prevent it. 2:15:30 Sazed may complain now. But when they faced the choice between a breeding program and extinction, they chose survival. Even Tyndwyl herself did not question it. 2:21:00 That ship sailed with what the Gostbloods did in RoW. 2:23:00 Straff succeeded. #TeamKelsier
Regarding shallans never having heard the tenets while pretty much being a full member I honestly think it's far more simple than what's presented on the podcast. I believe brandon just didn't have them created at the time and once it came time to write lost metal he was thinking more along the line of what happened previously on bands and scadrial overall rather than asking what happened previous on with the ghost bloods. I think it's just an irl reason where it was overlooked by himself and the team.
19:00 Kelsier sent his black ops to Roshar with concise objectives using any means necessary. It makes sense from Military viewpoint. Because he probably couldn't send that many people, and a very dangerous shard had Scadrial in its sights. I can see Moraise and Kelsier having a falling out in the future for Moraise's unit creating bad public relations with Roshar, when the main objective was probably to undermine Odium and to gather intel and technology regarding moving investiture through the Cosmere.
Can’t remember what time stamp got me the idea, but one of the cyberpunk stories should be about a shadow council controlling the government called the ghostbloods (that also is the ghostbloods the weird wording was me being dramatic)
Also: I think that the steel spike that puts his souls back into his body also gives the mistwraith he’s spiked to (yes I’m making that assumption as well) the ability to steelpush, and thereby him as well. We already know that it lets him see metals (and also like something quantum as well, that’s something we know nothing about), so it would make sense that it would give him the same package. Since his body is a mistwraith, he can only have 1 spike otherwise Sazed could control the body.
The only reason Kelsier made people think he was godlike was to inspire hope in them. The Lord Ruler was considered to be god himself and the only way to give the Skaa hope was for them to think there was something divine fighting for their freedom.
Ok, so. I DO think Kelsier was correct in thinking that the skaa needed an idea of divine inspiration to rise up against the Final Empire, and that his intentional establishment of Survivorism was instrumental to the rebellion's success. HOWEVER, I strongly disagree that necessity was the only reason he did it. I ORIGINALLY believed this was the case (and I liked Kelsier more when I thought it was) but I think the fact that we've seen that almost immediately after the Catacendre, he turned around and did the same exact thing to the Southern Scadrians, went down there, told them he was a god and convinced them to worship him, to me indicates that actually... this is just something Kelsier seems to enjoy, deceiving people in matters of faith this way. And that's a lot of what I find kind of reprehensible about his arrogance and the way he plays with the hearts and minds of people, telling himself it's necessary but enjoying it at the same time. Even after he was CLEARLY called out for doing so and promised he'd do better! Has he? Doesn't seem like it to me. Was it the only way for the skaa? Probably. But was it ALSO the only way for the Southern Scadrians? Mmmmmmmmmmmmm... pressing X to doubt on that one. One of those things like, if I had a nickel for every time Kelsier established himself as a deity over a group of vulnerable people as a way of "helping" them, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it sure is suspicious as RUST that it happened twice.
@@FeatherWriters he helped the southern scadrians survive and gave them knowledge about metals, he didnt go there so he could be a god to them. he also did ascend to godhood at 1 point. Kelsier is like Dalinar in the sense that they are natural leaders, its wat they do, its my way or the high way. its just who they are and they have very good reason and justification to be that way. i dunno maybe we are literally reading different books but whenever i read a Kelsier POV, villainous is never the take away. in SH Kelsier is in a very specific position, he dies and finds out hes spent his entire life being manipulated by an invisible god. finding out these shards exist and can cause the amount of harm that they can is an eye opening experience. Kel became a symbol for people and after going through what he did he rightfully feels responsible for the planet and the people on it. A being who has lived for hundreds of years and ascended to godhood at one point and is considered by a very large number of people as god thinking himself as an authority is not atall strange. i dont think u can read a character more wrong then you do Kelsier, honestly just feels personal rather then whats on the actual page. my entire time reading fiction as a whole, the 2 biggest wasted potentional deaths in the moment were Kelsier and Jasnah and thankfully brandon knew that and brought them both back because ive never seen/felt more wasted potencial in a story before or since those 2 moments. this is a long ass comment but this topic really gets to me because its so dumb.
Yes, people can read things differently. It's very subjective, and that's okay! But that doesn't mean either reading is wrong. It's wrong to you, but someone else could say the same to you! I don't agree with Alyx, but I do think you really don't understand what she said here. Especially the villain aspect: Alyx very clearly said that he isn't, and that isn't the issue. -Eric
@@17thShard Actually, according to Annalee Newitz and Charlie Jane Anders, you are wrong about neither meaning being wrong. (Note: their podcast is "our opinions are correct", lowercase theirs.)
@Carl Fink Haven't heard of them, and your comment doesn't really elaborate why. I'm probably not going to listen to a thing for that purpose. I just mean that people's readings are their own, and it is true that they read it this way. -Eric
I was really surprised by the idea that Kel was the one who came up with the breeding program idea….I think it’s way way off, other than the obvious it’s an easy idea for anyone searching for power to think of, in a world where power is genetically passed. Leaving that aside the final empire was a eugenic society that Kel grew up in too. The idea that Harmony would try to shame Kel for a practice that has been going on in world for well over a thousand years is silly, I think it dates back to classical times but that’s a different thing. Yes Harmony’s people suffered way worse than the skaa but it was still terrible and something Kel had first hand knowledge of it. Eugenics is a ‘fact of life’ on scadrial because of the way the power was ‘gifted’. If anyone in that conversation should be shamed it’s Harmony since he presumably (maybe…) could have changed how it worked much more significantly and he didn’t.
alyx has god tier hater behaviour here in that kelsier rant: "i think perhaps the most aggravating that kelsier did in this book, was that he didn't give me enough to be annoyed by" bahahashgasbdkfgnjfd
I made the dough for and placed 3 oven trays worth of individually cut cookies in the time it took you to decide if kelsier likes putting kids in cages 10/10 podcast experience
I think a lot of the "Kelsier is evil" vibes are a symptom of the fact that he views Roshar / the radiants as an existential threat to Scadrial, and his primary motives there are to exploit/extract stormlight at best, and eliminate the threat at worst. It's as if so far, all we've seen/heard of Kelsier post Catacendre are from his era 1 "kill all nobles" persona, and we've missed his crew leader, empathetic, paternal side. Obviously that dual personality is a little concerning psychologically, but I think in era 3 we'll get a much more balanced view of his psyche. ...Also I've just talked myself into Kelsier taking up Harmony's shards. He's the perfect balance of "Preserve those I care about" and "Ruin my enemies"
I suspect that kelsier will take over harmony in an attempt to avoid it flipping to discord but I think his ascension will actually be the final nail to change the shard into discord fully
Him getting the shards would be horrible. When talking about Roshar, the radiants have no intention to threaten scadrial. Until he started an organization of amoral murder's that have been threatening radiants. Even then I think the radiants would limit any fighting to him not his whole planet. I definetly see the seeds of any conflict up into the space age being a direct result of his dispicable behavior.
OK... So I feel a little silly, since it has been 8 months since this video posted.... but I have nowhere else to put this. Thank you to Feather and Argent for the inspiration. I reached a conclusion while driving home and listening to the back-and-forth over Kelsier's personality and morals (or lack thereof). Kelsier is the most human human who ever humaned, at least as far as the Cosmere is concerned. 1. He DOES have morals, although they change over time and situation. He adapts to situations in ways that he thinks fit the "big picture" of his morality. Let's face it--- most of us operate this way in everyday life. Our morality is important to us, but it's not so set-in-stone that we cannot find justifications for minor discrepancies with our actions. And if we experience something really critical or earth-shattering, we often bend our perceptions of morality around that thing we've experienced. It's super common. 2. Kelsier is limited in scope. No matter what kind of magic mayhem Kelsier pulls from here on out, he will always be more limited in terms of what he can see and understand, than Sazed is. This is his tragic flaw, honestly, and it's not entirely his fault. He has ascended (lowercase 'a') further than most humans, become a quasi-immortal, and punched a couple of gods in the face, but he is STILL incapable of seeing what they were able to see-- the meta big picture, if you will. One of the criticisms of Kelsier is that he only cares about Scadrial. Well, I would answer that with "Of COURSE he does." Why would you not prioritize the place you live over other places? That's a cornerstone of humanity... right down to you, sitting wherever you are. I guarantee that you care more about what happens to your nation, than what happens to some nation you've barely heard of. Can we call that deliberate ignorance? I suppose... but it's also a selective process that allows us to prioritize, with limited scope. 3. Kelsier does not neatly fit one archetype alone, like Kaladin. I love Kaladin- he's one of my favorite characters of all time- but he's very clearly a singular, extraordinary person. Most people are NOT Kaladins. We fold occasionally. We make assumptions sometimes. We cave sometimes. It happens. We prioritize ourselves and our friends and family above "others". Maybe that's unfortunate, but it's true. We're not all on some noble calling to protect everyone, down to the last hobo. I think Brandon writes Kel (and Kal) like this on purpose. Kel is set up like the average neutral person given power--you never know. It could go either way-- and is very likely to go both ways-- some good, some bad. Kal is an outlier given power, the selfless one who will always turn out to be the aspirational hero. 3. Kelsier's chief power is BS. It trumps even Allomancy. The guy can convince people to do anything that he wants done. We all know this person. We have met this person. And we have no earthly idea how they are able to get away with the things that they get away with. They have a gift for reading and understanding people, and thus, for collecting friends and forging ongoing relationships with groups. 4. Kelsier's character is all over the place. He's simultaneously the best person you know, and one of the worst. He's cool and cringe rolled into one. He thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread, but occasionally he comes face to face with the fact that he's a bit of an ass. He has his fatherly moments, his bro moments, his hero moments, and his villain moments. He not-so-secretly wants to be in charge, wants people to love him and trust him. He loves secrets and gossip and hoarding information. He likes holding all the cards, and playing different roles for different situations. He thinks he is so damn smart, and that's how we know it's all about to go to hell in a handbasket. There are tons of characters in the Cosmere, but none of them rival Kelsier, in my opinion for sheer ....humanity.
I always liked Kelsier, I don’t see him as a villain or potential villain. He’s just a bit chaotic, which I find so entertaining. Also, your podcasts get me through work so thanks for a longer one. Happy holidays :)
I agree; I think Kelsier (even The Lord Ruler and others) are interesting characters. Kelsier’s motives get highlighted in The Lost Metal which also shows him in a more redeeming light, even if he still has an “ends justify the means” approach).
One thought about Sazed lying to Kelsier - Could he have done it because getting Trellium/Bavadinium was actually the harder piece in splitting harmonium? We know Autonomy is a fan of Kelsier - maybe Sazed thinks that if Kelsier knows that you need Trellium, Kel will go to Autonomy and she'll be able to manipulate him?
The only way I get Kelsier's powers to make sense, is that he used to have powers, and no longer has them. I could see a situation where he notices that belief in "The Survivor" and "The Sovereign" changes him, so he starts experimenting with Identity and Connection to insulate himself from these changes. Maybe this backfired and separated him from his powers as well, since they are so integral to belief in "The Survivor" and "The Sovereign". Edit: This explains the memory medallion, as he had powers back then. It also explains why Lerasium wouldn't work. He has the power already, he just can't access it.
I can see a scenario where he can use powers, but can't burn metals. So ... he needs "purified Dor" to activate his allomantic abilities, and it's super expensive. Among other things, this would explain why he wants what I'll call "purified Stormlight" so badly. Hm, I'm starting to like this crack theory, now.
What irks me the most about Sazed and Kelsier's final confrontation (and makes the Kelsier bashing that came from it all the worst for it) is the fact that _Sazed actually chose_ to keep Allomancy and Feruchemy working the way they do. Sazed _could_ have turned every human into a Mistborn there and then. He _could_ have altered the way the power is attained. Instead, Sazed altered the way Allomancy and Feruchemy works so that they are both infinitely weaker and rarer than they were before. He also chose to make his god metal absolutely unusable for Allomancy. He also also chose to leave the half of the population who had semi-regular access to Feruchemy to slowly die on their own, and would have genocided them entirely out of existence had Kelsier not rescued them. He also also also chose to not help the planet whatsoever in matters of Cosmere-wide threats and invasions. Well, he _did_ decide that instead of all the godly things that could make a difference, he _would_ get one single lawman to do his work for him; then he proceeded to traumatize this person nearly to the point of breaking so that he was barely useful enough to stop Autonomy in the end. Now, after royally fucking things up for Scadrial (perhaps permanently), Sazed has the gall to criticize how horrible other people are for trying to find a way to fix his mess. Yeah, breeding programs to strengthen Allomancy are horrible things Sazed. _Sure would have been wonderful if someone had made the magic no longer genetic based huh._ And yeah, it's possibly awful that the Ghostbloods are out there stealing Investiture to power their fight to save Scadrial. _If only someone had decided to make Investiture more readily available in Scadrial instead of making it exponentially rarer, that would have helped a lot!_ How dare Kelsier even think about using Hemalurgy to steal Feruchemical powers from criminals and give them to people willing to do good. _If only, boy if ONLY someone hadn't decided that Feruchemy would basically stop existing for literally no reason._ You know how everyone despises Amaram because he had the audacity of pretending he got Helaran's blade to "better protect Roshar" all the while conveniently forgetting to mention the fact that he spent the last 20 years actively trying his best to cause the threat to Roshar in the first place? To me, in TLM, Sazed became the asshole that Amaram wishes he could be. There isn't a single issue in Era 2 that wasn't literally caused by him, most of them with absolute intent of actually causing that issue. Hadn't it been for Kelsier's crew being there to stop the army, he'd be splintered or shoved into a new System, everyone in Scadrial would be either dead or a slave to Autonomy... And he still manages to pretend he was on the right all along ¬¬
I will say I believe magic systems can be limited but I thought that magic systems develop depending on the shard and the world so unsure how much he could change how the magic system is passed on now. Also he didn’t change the magics to make them weaker that was just a natural occurrence from the powers being passed through genetically being diluted and ruin killing the full feruchemists. Also making everyone mistborn would put more preservation in them making his imbalance even worse. However making people Feruchemists has definite possibility tbh! 100% agree on the more recent stuff with Sazed though how much is caused by the shards we have yet to see. However distinguishing between shard and vessel at this point May be pedantic
I really like Jess' idea of the different personalities being worshipped and thus Kelsiers himself not being affect like the heralds. But still think there is more to it, like Hoid suggested that the Heralds could avoid madness by storing memories like he does. So perhaps Kelsier has a stash of copperminds somewhere (but apparently he can't use metals for magic so idk). I also think part of it is because of how he became a cognitive shadow. He was made using Preservation's power and also held Preservation so I feel like that has to have a role to play in terms of his longevity. Also he isn't as old as the heralds. The heralds have been around for like 10 times as long as he has and went through a lot worse circumstances.
If anything is going to make Kelsier realize that his actions have unwanted, negative consequences it would be his oldest friend turning into a dark god that he has to personally murder.
Kelsier's worldview is incredibly immature, which is a big part of what makes it hard for me to support him. The way he treats crewmembers and cares about their agency and wellbeing is in conflict with the black-and-white sociopathy he uses for everybody else. Discovering that people beyond his crew have lives and agency and matter is always so close to his reach, but so far. Hemalurgy reminds me a lot of "Battlefield Medicine" in history, where removing a limb was a harsh, violent procedure that often resulted in death itself. To get better at amputating limbs, you need limbs to amputate. To get better at Hemalurgy, you need invested people to spike. The Set's experiments with forced breeding and spiking would be like a doctor starting wars to maintain a steady influx of patients to study on. Kelsier's would be closer to a doctor who kidnaps criminals to experiment on. The people getting sacrificed might be less innocent, but the deliberate torture and murder required for these experiments to continue apace still happens. If the Set only kidnapped people Kelsier actively disliked, I don't think he'd have much of an issue with their plans.
I'm not surprised Feather assumes the worst out of every Kelsier appearance on screen. Lol. It's fun seeing that perspective. I'm 100% with Argent though.
With Kelsier not being able to use lerasium (and potentially medallions), my mind keeps going to the fact that Kel is a sliver of Preservation, and also he's a cognitive shadow sustained by being a sliver+his dip into the Well of Ascension (which at this point is probably superceded by the sliver status) so it seems like his soul is probably super-saturared with Connection to Preservation, so trying to increase it with lerasium just wouldn't take. It's like trying to fill an already full cup. Now, as for why being a sliver doesn't automatically make him a Mistborn, that I have to suspect is due to him being a cognitive shadow.
That is a great point, but I also don't trust Harmony's words to be honest. Like he is already lying to Kelsier about there being no Lerasium, so who knows what other information he is fudging at this point. Also, if you are right, then he shouldn't even need metals to use Allomancy. The metals are only a key to use Allomantic abilities, the investiture comes from Preservation. Perhaps Kelsier just needs to change his thinking to arrive at the right Intent in order to use Allomancy instead of using the metals as a key. May be his situation is similar to the Heralds when they were able to get Stormlight directly from Honor instead of using gems.
@@Haxerous It's definitely possible. But I'm also thinking about Kel's weird condition. He was a Shard without a connection to the physical realm. While allomancy without a doubt has a lot to do with one's spiritweb, its also very physical, as shown by Kelsier's inability to burn metals in secret history. The point I was trying to get to in my first comment is that Kelsier at a spiritual level seems to lack a body. Now that might not be an issue if he could grant that body allomancy with lerasium, but he can't, because his soul is so saturated with Connection, heck, he is essentially Preservation's investiture at this point, that the lerasium doesn't take hold, even on the body. Now I fully admit, I'm guessing at mechanics we don't fully understand here, so I actually assume I'm wrong. But I'm proposing the idea on the off chance I might be right.
@@HSuper_Lee Yeah I am not disagreeing with you, I was only adding further to your point about him being a Sliver of Preservation. I just think there should be a way for him to tap into Preservation and access the investiture of the shard directly given his Connection to the shard.
@@Haxerous I don't know if Sanderson has ever been asked about whether or not slivers get innate access to their Shard's magic system. We've seen so few that it's never really come up. But you're making me think that it's definitely a question that should be asked, even if it just results in a RAFO.
I am so glad Alyx is on this video. #teamalyx I don’t hate Kelsier as a character. Interesting things happen because of him. But I really don’t like him as a person and how his actions continue to affect characters I love more. He has been rightfully called out by the people who know him best as not actually understanding relationships and having poor motives even if he is accomplishing good things. He seems to center himself in everything and seems to really lack the ability to be introspective. And doesn’t truly care about the consequences of his actions. And I don’t think he’s changed. Everything he has going on on Roshar: trying to figure out how to get around his connection to Scadrial so he can meddle in more places. Pushing Sazed to want to develop technology and eventually interstellar travel: maybe also selfishly trying to work around his Scadrial connection because if the spa ship is Scadrian maybe he can leave on it. I think Sazed lying to him about things says a lot about how little he trusts Kelsier. Which is sad because they were such good friends, but honestly, I get it. Kelsier, you’ve done good things for the cosmere. You aren’t the only one who can do good things. Go retire now. Thanks. And something else I thought of when discussing his cognitive shadow/powers aspect. The Heralds, Returned, and Fused all gained bodies again through Shardic intervention. I think Kelsier found a hack to do it without a shard’s help since Sazed doesn’t seem too inclined to have helped him do it. Which leaves him limited. As always, love the discussion, love being a part of this fandom where I can be #teamalyx and still think everything Evgeni has to say about Kelsier is possible and interesting. Thanks for all you do!
Completely agree. I feel like Ayx has successfully picked up on how we’re supposed to view Kelsier. Like you said ppl even close to him have called him out. He’s not a bad person but he can be so self serving and i picked up on it from the first book
"Rayse is bound, and we care not for his prison." Feels so bad when you remember that Dalinar could've inverted that and just let Odium leave, making Roshar the one safe haven from his wrath, but Dalinar has too much honor to do it.
Oh man, I just know Sando is cooking up something crazy with Kelsier. Weirdly enough, I don't think he's going to be a villain type of character (at least by the end of his arc) particularly because of that scene with Preservation when Leras tells him to do better. I think that hit Kelsier hard. He may be up to some mischief for a little bit, but I believe (and hope) by the end of his story, he's going to be ACTUALLY selfless, resulting in him becoming one of the greatest forces in saving the Cosmere. Oof, ya'll got a lot of thoughts flowing in my head after this one, great podcast as always guys!
Discord: I definitely agree we're headed for a Sazed-Kelsier battle that could end in the death of Sazed. This may be way off, but part of me wonders if Discord refers not to Harmony but to Kelsier who takes up Harmony's two powers but uses them in a very different, discordant way. Nothing about Sazed has ever struck me as discordant, but that's pretty much the definition of Kelsier and his Ghostbloods. “He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it.” Sanderson, Brandon. Mistborn Trilogy (The Mistborn Saga) (p. 181). Tor Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I'm part way through the episode so maybe one of you address it later on, but on the whole "Can kandra use medallions?" question: MeLaan was one of the people storing her weight on the skimmer in Bands of Mourning.
If Saze wanted to add allomancers he could also just spike a brewery with lerasium dust. Giving a small amount of lerasium to a somewhat random group of people dodges the issues with picking and choosing individuals while still increasing allomancy at a population level
A+ Kelsier hate, love that Feather is on this episode. I like Era 1 Kel but after he just nopes out of death I'm like meh, and I actively hate the Ghostbloods and all things related to them. They are so detestable, and to find out Kelsier founded them - Ugh.
You can tell which of them listen to the audiobooks! The different ways they pronounce Marasi is all over the place! Most impressive - they don't let the other pronunciations change what they know is the right way, lol! 😁
I’m re-reading Mistborn era 1 and in the first chapter with Sazed there’s this awesome exchange between Saze and Vin: "“Kelsier,” Vin said quietly. “He’s a good man, isn’t he?” Sazed smiled. “A very good man, Mistress. One of the best I’ve known.”" Knowing what we know today… well, things sure have changed 😂
Didn't Kelsier imply he was attached to his own bones? I know Brandon has previously said they were still around in era 2 after ten soon stashed them somewhere. Then in his head in his epilogue he thinks to himself that "His spiked eye pinned his soul to his bones...", or am I just reading too much into this?
Just some food for thought: Who’s personality as a human best fits Discord’s nature? It is not Sazed. He probably has an unwillingness to ruin things and because of that he cannot act, because by preserving he would have to ruin to keep it balanced. Guess who is perfectly fine ruining whatever in order to preserve? Kelsier. His personality is perfect to be Discords vessel. I think Kelsier is going to do his friend Sazed a big favor and save him. By stealing his powers and becoming discord in an epic heist. His crew? The Ghostbloods.
Speaking of the Fused vs Kelsier being stapled, there's probably also some Intent shenanigans. Like the singers willingly give up their bodies to the Fused. Don't think Kelsier did the same thing
Kelsier not being able to use any magic at all both makes a ton of sense and is very strange. I feel like he should be able to use Unsealed Metalminds cause even machines can use them, but I agree that his inability to use Allomancy comes from the fact that when he was just a Cognitive Shadow he couldn't use any either.
This was a fun episode! Regarding what Kelsier would and wouldn't approve of, I think he MIGHT have allowed what happened to Lift to happen, but only if he was presented with a compelling rationale. He'd have to see that it would lead to a significant, meaningful gain. "You can't crack an omlette without breaking a few skulls" yes, but at the end of the cracking, Kelsier is going to want that omlette. I think Kelsier will allow a lot of terrible things, but the worse the thing, the more solid the gain has to be. He's not going to throw away lives on a longshot bet, for one thing. So I do think that he'd disapprove of Mraize caging Lift because he might not think thatthe gain was really worth it.
Im almost starting a 3th read of secret histories because i juat can't remember anything bad Kelsier made in tha storie.... Like, I totally agree he did some evil shit, but people keap saying it was in secret histories... What... did he do that I'm not remembering?
I am not sure about all the topic of PROTECTING SCADRIAL. I think that you believe him too much. Maybe Rosharian ghostbloods don't tell Shallan about that goal because... well, that is not the goal of Rosharian Ghostbloods, only what Kelsier says in Scadrial. He wants to be able to leave Scadrial, and that is why he tells Sazed that scadrians need to build spaceships, because he can't travel via Shadesmar like normal people. Furthermore, he is interested in moving Investiture between worlds, what is also consistent with this goal. I believe that they are just not telling Shallan that the goal is to protect Scadrial because it is not the goal, or at least, not all of the goals, and each branch has a different objective. Furthermore, rosharian ghostbloods being independent is something that Brandon needs to avoid Stormlight spoilers in Era 3.
2:01:50 I think that was more a case of triage and less to do with not caring about them. Like the most immediate concern over there was stopping Autonomy's army.
What if Kelsier had the Bands made by some other people that did have powers so that people would eventually as a whole BELIEVE Kelsier to be a Mistborn so that in turn he could BECOME one by having his Cognitive Shadow self altered by popular belief???
The idea of Kelsier having an issue with locking a child in a cage for a few days is really funny when he's probably killed children before and justified it as "they were nobles." Like I think if Kelsier had seen a crib with a baby in it in Tresting Manor he still would've burned it. Also yeah I'm with Alyx on Kelsier being ok with eugenics. The line of "maybe Ruin and Preservation should've thought about that" is blaming the Shards for the eugenics. He probably tried to avoid creating a breeding program, but he didn't realize that eugenics always goes bad. I also think his insistence on "we need metalborn" is him trying to justify it maybe more to himself than to anyone else, but also he's talking to the guy who made a shared acquaintance into a Mistborn, so there's probably an aspect of trying to seed an idea in Sazed's mind of making Mistborn.* *And maybe Sazed tries that with one Mistborn at first and they turn out to be the serial killer and Sazed's conclusion from that is "this is a terrible idea Mistborn are essentially living weapons of mass destruction" and Kelsier's gonna go the Syndrome route of "when everyone's super, no one is" and concludes that being the only Mistborn will drive a person mad with power (which I think he would think because he's not that great with empathy and he's go mad with power if he was the only Mistborn in the world, but his brother (fittingly) is counterevidence as an immortal Steel Inquisitor who seems mostly just tired)
It's like Kelsier was watching The Dark Knight, heard the line "you either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain" and he was like "why not both? YOLT!".
Would hemalurgy (with Kandra blessings) combined with a fabrial (to bind, stabilize, and maintain a cognitive shadow) be able to do something similar to a gem heart in a Singer? You could give sentience, but have the shadow control the mind.
I find it hilarious that Kelsier wants to go after the secrets of the Heralds, when Vasher exists. He was a religious figure that as a Returned is a cognitive shadow inhabiting a body, but hasn't gone insane, and is now a world hopper. He is quite literally everything Kelsier wants to be. I mean, aside from him not being the savior of the universe.
Wait, the idea that people worshipping a cognitive shadow changes the shadow because of how it is percieved is fascinating, Do you think that that is the reason for Shalash slashing depictions of her? That she wants to erase her image from history so that peoples worship no longer affects her?
(1:09:38) Maybe he's also saying that if it was possible to create Lerasium, he would theoretically have an endless supply of charged hemalurgic spikes?
I think Kelsier might be lying to give the other Ghostbloods additional hope and faith in him. Idk if thats good or bad, but i do t think its simply ego.
SPOILERS!!!! I think we have almost a confirmation that Kelsier has spiked himself to his own original bones. As opposed to Ishar that is trying to do something similar, but he does not have the luxury of such bones
I really want a "I wanted this but not at this cost!" Moment for Kelsier. For his character to grow one of his plans needs to succeed but with such a high cost that it shakes him to his core. Harmony shifting to Discord comes to mind. I consider him ruthless but with a moral compass. He always goes following his conscience but jumps/smashes/sneaks through everything in his way.
@@Kabissz Bigger than accidentally almost destroying his home world? What do you want? Kelsier's shade standing on the airless husk of Scadrial turning back into mist, as he has splintered the last Shard of Adonalsium, burning cadmium and watching the stars of the Cosmere going black one after an other. And he whispers:"At last we are free."
@@oneukum ok, ok I'll try and explain myself better. With that (destruction of homeworld) he could argue to himself that he couldn't have known, I think. By 'bigger' I mean the effect on HIM. I'd like a situation where he realizes that he SHOULD'VE known the unwanted cost of his actions, he was just too focused on completing his masterplan that he didn't. Something that would make him question. Self reflection is not something I strongly associate with Kelsier and it would be fascinating to see him engage in some. Thanks for bugging me about this, couldn't quite put this properly to words before ☺️
@@Kabissz At the risk of repeating myself: He has had that moment in Secret History. Kelsier is a results before methods guy. But he is fair enough to apply it to himself, too. He almost destroyed Scadrial. Excuses do not count.
