Morality Without God 

Someone should of said congratulations steve, you just played yourself.

I used to like him back then. I majorly lose respect for him.

A lot of Christian "morality" is nothing but PRUDISM, which I think people are better off without anyway.

@@linklawson5633 Prudism was probably what caused him to go for other women behind his wives' backs.

Still he is right. The fact that you guys see's him as a hypocrite, wich he is, shows us that there is a moral barometer and we are all not able to keep it perfectly. Otherwise who cares if someone did what he did?

Absolutely

Yes

AND...a god who could create the universe would certainly know that!

Saphi Izcool You have no control on your life. What makes you belive you have? You can think on your own? Very proud of you. I also think on my own. I have my doubts, but even i have them, i still believe in God. Wanna know why? Because i don't believe in religion, i believe in God. Yes religion is the biggest lie of our world. Don't judge God because of people. You don't really know Him. He is out of time and space. He is the greatest entity from univers.I'm not trying make you believe in Him. I just want you to know this, your freedom is a lie ;). Our mind actually is the real cage.

+Radu Baias OK, so you are a deist; common now, just one more step and you will be free.

he will probably be agnostic first then free so 2 steps

+Al. C. That was the case for me. It is amazing that this indoctrination is so huge that you need to take small steps to free from it.

You should ask your mom if the pastor's wife does breastfeeding for free? The reason mom is this which is more important doctrine or giving babies breastmilk or baby food?Biology wins everytime.

Proud to a member of the select group of critical thinkers!

"Proud to be an atheist, and proud to separate myself from the "justified" insanity we see every day." Me too.

yep. Most Christians don't even try to wrap their head around what the flood story ACTUALLY means: Little children, new born, drowning. Pregnant women, drowning. Little cute baby puppies that couldn't even hurt a fly, drowning. And they tell this to little children as a happy story with lions and gazelles living peacefully on the ark and the rainbow and whatnot and they don't even blink when speaking about EVERYTHING dying on the whole planet. Sheer insanity.

God has the right to all life, all things are His and he could lawfully end all life and the world yet not sin or do evil, for it is by right His! If we kill another it is so horrible because we are taking something that is not ours, but God has created all things, and therefore can never do such a thing.

@@iansmith9103 God gets a special privilege and how dare we hold HIM accountable to OUR moral standard! Yet, if ANY human behaved as God does in the Bible, they would be guilty of the most monstrous, barbaric atrocities ever conceived. If God is your moral compass, then you are aligning your morality to a tyrant whose reign is bloodier than that of any mortal dictator in our history. If you don't see the problem with that, then you have no right to claim atheism is a morally bankrupt religion that leads to genocide. Just because your God supposedly wrote the rule book, doesn't give him an automatic free pass to order the massacre of innocents.

why cant we hold him accountable, he made us in his image right so why does her get different standards?@@iansmith9103

It's truly sad to see people base their morals from opinions and personal feelings. Just... wow.

Kzar Antila but if there is not god it’s only subjective based on who the person is For example Ur belief can be different from mines If there is no god to set the standards of what is objectively Then it’s only a taste of what we believe is right or wrong So that means nothing is right or wrong only what the person group of people or gov thinks

I think we can all agree morality at least means to support the well being of other humans. That is a subjective opinion but if you don’t agree with it then to put it simply, your a dick and this conversation is hopeless because you lack empathy. But if you do agree with my definition of morality, then I will ask you, how the fuck is Old Testament god supporting the well being of humans?

@@octaneswagg You can have objective morality without God. If you can't, then I can ask you the same question. If morality is subjective, why is God good? On what objective scale do you find him to be good? Does he choose his laws randomly, since there is no objective morality to take from? People have different subjective opinions on global warming, flat Earth etc., that doesn't mean one side is not objectively correct and other is objectively wrong.

@@goranmilic442 no u can’t have objective morality u idiot if there is no god it’s only subjective morality meaning ur opinion vs mine when u say objective it’s no longer you’re opinion vs mine vs a group it is something out of the human moral like a god that states doing this is objectively wrong bruhhh all the great atheist say the same thing I say just read the books they write

Atheism is dangerous. It has no beliefs (they say) and is therefore without guidelines or boundaries that are definable. Atheists understand power and have no scruples about applying it to an end they see as desirable, what ever that end may be. To the atheist, power makes right. What else is there?

I beg to differ!

Bill Asbury Besides federal laws, there are many moral guidelines that are genetically inhibited and are even observable in apes. For example, empathy, teamwork and general behavior toward the greater good. These deeply based morals that are not "taught" in church are not as easily corruptible as "religious" values. Religion on the other hand can be used to justify everything. People murder, rape, torture and mistreat other human beings in the name of their religion to this day. The USA is the most religious developed country of the world. On the other side, most people in Norway or Sweden are Atheists. The USA have more people in prisons per capita then any other country in the world. Sweden has one of the lowest crime rates and one of the highest standards of living.

largo303 Largo, I think we mean two different things by morality. From my stand point there is no morality apart from a Lawgiver. By morality we have always meant something that involves real, free, moral choice, a choosing of good over evil. If morality is as you say, genetically caused, then it is not morality at all but bio-chemical response along the line of B.F. Skinner's stimulus and response studies. There can be no moral behavior unless there is a standard to follow and a free choice to follow it or not. Another way to say the same thing is that if there is no posted speed limit on a highway, one cannot be charged of course with speeding. Without a moral standard under which we all stand and which none of us wrote, there is no direction as to what "the greater good" actually is. Consistent atheists have always correctly maintained there is no such thing as morality, there is only action and choice. See Skinner, Nietzsche, Peter Singer and others. Religious values are easily corruptible, if we decide to put them aside and do what we wish. The fact that a priest molests a child doesn't make it a religious act performed in accordance with the teachings of Christ. If your distaste is directed towards Christians (or anyone else for that matter) I have no objection. If you find fault with say, the Sermon on the Mount, that is another matter. Religion can be used to justify anything only to those who know nothing about their religion. When I listen to serious Christians teach, they in large tell me to do what mankind in general and Christianity in specific, has always held as "right". When I listen to atheists, they tell me to do what I wish. I don't know if the USA is a religious country or not but our leaders are thoroughly secular. Many religious people are Christian in name only and live in ways identical to the secular world (see abortion rates, divorce, low charitable giving etc. at my church it is a mere 2.5% of estimated income). No, America is secular with a religious gloss. If and when persecution comes to the USA church, you will (or will not) see a genuine authentic "Body of Christ" living out the life of Jesus.

I think any sane grown man(or woman) can decide for himself what is good and evil. You don't need religion for that. People that grow up in a non-religious environment also know, that murder and stealing and hostility is bad. If morality is inhibited in us by our genes, our actions (what you call morality) are predetermined. And when I do something wrong I get a bad conscience. Not because of religion, but because of empathy. If I lack empathy and can't differ between good and evil, religion is no use either. If anything, religion can act like laws on you. If you decide to do the right thing because religion taught you so, you only do it to avoid punishment (e.g. going to hell) and that is the same as doing something because the federal law tells you so to avoid going to prison. I guess what I mean to say is that religion is not the origin of morality but more of an enforcer of the same, just like laws. Your government is pretty bias to Christianity. And many leaders, especially Republicans and Tea-Partyiers are outspoken Christian Fundamentalists. Just take Sarah Palin for example. Most Republicans that ran for the last presidency claimed, God had told them to run for President. Your military is deeply Christian as well. I just read about an Atheist soldier suing the US Military because he was discriminated by his colleagues and superiors. Last but not least take your dollar. It says "In God we trust" on it. How is that secular??

I will only argue that morality must be based in God. Once we have agreed on that we can discuss His nature and name.

Bill Asbury You would be wrong to argue that, otherwise we would all own slaves and would turn a blind eye to rape. Nice try though the facts and evidence are on my side.

truebinx Binx, First you are talking to Christians and these are not people bound by the Old Testament ritual or cultural law (though there is much more to be said about that). Second, nowhere is anyone commanded to buy a slave anymore than you are required to own a one because you (perhaps) live in the South (or North for that matter, they had them too). To take it a bit further, are you required to have an abortion because it is legal in America? Apparently, THAT is a Constitutional Right! and we have slaughtered millions upon millions. Third, talk about rape, this culture percolates in rape. Whether it be good old police blotter type rape, college Rohypnol rape or the unprecedented Human Trafficking (where children are sold by their parents into prostitution) that is flooding this country and the world for that matter. Not much said in the media objecting to it all. Are you on a campaign to stop this? Atheists seem to be having fun with this "Beat em up with their own Bible" approach. It is fun and easy to do as long as you don't know too much about the culture and history involved or consider progressive revelation. Morality progresses in the Bible ["eye for eye" (which was itself a limit on the traditional "blood feud" that went on for generations, previous to the eye-for-eye limit) progressed into "love your neighbor as yourself"] as God reveals more of himself to us and ultimately so in Christ. You guys seem to think you are the first to read the text in the last 2000 years and all believers and scholars have just missed what you see so plainly. Do some homework and you will understand, ............no on the other hand don't, it's a lot of work and requires an open mind. "Fugetta 'bout it!" I think you would do better to worry about the performance of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot and other notable atheists of the 20th century such as Margaret Sanger and the Eugenics movement and a host of others. None of this is to mention your garden variety atheist who robs banks or your basic embezzling type atheist or your desert your kids so you can have another chick for a wife type atheist. You should understand that atheists can engage in these actions without violation of ANY basic tenet of atheism. Some may engage such behavior or not but there is nothing in the "I have no belief in God" system of living that forbids it. An atheist may denounce such behavior for some reason but it is not atheism that requires him to do so. If an atheist does put on his black robe and denounce society's evils, he can do so not on the authority of a Lawgiver (remember he is only another man like you or me) but merely on the basis of emotion-of-the-moment. In days gone by it was immoral to abort your children, to day it is fine if for no other reason than you want to play in a tennis tournament. Atheists of yesterday agreed with the larger society that homosexual intercourse was wrong, to day it is cool and stars today are rushing to be gay whether they are or not. Oh, what will they tell us next? Maybe they will tell me it is wrong to drink Coke in sizes larger than 12 oz (thanks Mayor Bloomberg). As Mary Eberstadt pointed out, in Puritan days is was wrong to have sex outside of marriage but you could eat anything you wanted. Today you can have sex with anything living or dead, but you had better be eating the right foods!!! Such is morality with atheism.

Bill Asbury Alright dude I used to be a 'born again' Christian and I understand ancient Hebrew culture quite well. Apologetics like you though invented an ancient Hebrew culture to try and justify the horrible atrocities condoned and commanded by God throughout the bible. So here is your whole false dichotomy point by point. "First you are talking to Christians and these are not people bound by the Old Testament ritual or cultural law (though there is much more to be said about that)." Lol well except I can contradict that statement by simply quoting Matthew 5: 17-19 "17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…" Anyone looking at this can only logically conclude that Jesus confirmed the teachings of the OT with all it's draconian rules. "Second, nowhere is anyone commanded to buy a slave anymore than you are required to own a one because you (perhaps) live in the South (or North for that matter, they had them too). To take it a bit further, are you required to have an abortion because it is legal in America? Apparently, THAT is a Constitutional Right! and we have slaughtered millions upon millions." I don't understand what your trying to prove here since no one was ever REQUIRED to buy a slave. I'm not sure how allowing them to is any less worse though. But here's a few verses for you to ponder. "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." Leviticus 25:44-46 Note it said you may not you must. "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." Exodus 21:7-11 There are thousands of verses that regard women as property by default. "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21 That doesn't leave a whole lot for interpretation. Here's one from the New Testament "1Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven." Colossians 1:4 Don't you think that granting your slaves justice means freeing them? Even in the zombie hippie doesn't have an issue with owning people. Disgusting. "Third, talk about rape, this culture percolates in rape. Whether it be good old police blotter type rape, college Rohypnol rape or the unprecedented Human Trafficking (where children are sold by their parents into prostitution) that is flooding this country and the world for that matter. Not much said in the media objecting to it all. Are you on a campaign to stop this?" Actually if there was a cause I would find worthy of my full attention the slave trade is it. It's also the reason I tell everyone I know never to buy a street hooker because she is likely a slave. I have spent hours trying to match photo's of missing women with underground porn actresses but to no avail. I suspect that typically they end up in prostitution because that's harder to track than porn. I am quite appalled with rape whenever I hear about it regardless the form. Now fake feminist rape that's different. As much as I hate actual rape I despise the act of lieing about being raped because that will ruin the life of an innocent person. These are not morals I got from the bible mind you, if I where to get my morals from the bible this is how I would view rape. "23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death-the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you. 25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her. 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22-23-29 You see in the bible rape is a crime about property rights, not emotional damage and trauma inflicted on it's victim. "Atheists seem to be having fun with this "Beat em up with their own Bible" approach. It is fun and easy to do as long as you don't know too much about the culture and history involved or consider progressive revelation. Morality progresses in the Bible ["eye for eye" (which was itself a limit on the traditional "blood feud" that went on for generations, previous to the eye-for-eye limit) progressed into "love your neighbor as yourself"] as God reveals more of himself to us and ultimately so in Christ. You guys seem to think you are the first to read the text in the last 2000 years and all believers and scholars have just missed what you see so plainly. Do some homework and you will understand, ............no on the other hand don't, it's a lot of work and requires an open mind. "Fugetta 'bout it!"" Considering that religion is such a profitable business I'm not surprised that 'scholars' have left these verses out. Why do you think the Catholic Church outlawed printing the bible in modern languages back in the day? As for the eye for an eye thing they borrowed that from the Hammurabi. Get your history straight. "I think you would do better to worry about the performance of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot and other notable atheists of the 20th century such as Margaret Sanger and the Eugenics movement and a host of others. None of this is to mention your garden variety atheist who robs banks or your basic embezzling type atheist or your desert your kids so you can have another chick for a wife type atheist. You should understand that atheists can engage in these actions without violation of ANY basic tenet of atheism. Some may engage such behavior or not but there is nothing in the "I have no belief in God" system of living that forbids it. An atheist may denounce such behavior for some reason but it is not atheism that requires him to do so." Yet another false dichotomy. First off Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot all followed and ideology that is in it's own right a religion. I could do the same thing to you by mentioning the Crusades, Catholic Protestant Wars, and Hitler. If you think most atheists rob banks and embezzle you are living in a land of delusion. Also atheism is just a lack of belief in a deity. It in no way instructs us how we shall live our lives. No we have empathy for that. Buddhism is the most peaceful religion in the world and it's atheistic in nature. Here's a few quotes for you to chew on. “A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.” - Albert Einstein “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg "If an atheist does put on his black robe and denounce society's evils, he can do so not on the authority of a Lawgiver (remember he is only another man like you or me) but merely on the basis of emotion-of-the-moment. In days gone by it was immoral to abort your children, to day it is fine if for no other reason than you want to play in a tennis tournament. Atheists of yesterday agreed with the larger society that homosexual intercourse was wrong, to day it is cool and stars today are rushing to be gay whether they are or not. Oh, what will they tell us next? Maybe they will tell me it is wrong to drink Coke in sizes larger than 12 oz (thanks Mayor Bloomberg). As Mary Eberstadt pointed out, in Puritan days is was wrong to have sex outside of marriage but you could eat anything you wanted. Today you can have sex with anything living or dead, but you had better be eating the right foods!!!" LMFAO Well I don't know anybody who thinks it's ok to have sex with family, beasts, or dead things. Morality does evolve as time and civilization progresses. Something you fail to understand. If morality came from anything divine would be exactly the same throughout all of history. But guess what, it doesn't and ancient religious texts stand as a true testimony of that fact. Animal psychologists have witnessed moral behavior among creatures. So you can't even logically argue that morality is unique to humans which only helps to further dent your proverbial armor. Arguing that morality must come from a magical sky daddy is like arguing that all marinara sauce must come from the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

truebinx Binx First, The Old Testament Law was fulfilled in Christ. Christians never looked to the OT for moral guidance, they looked to Christ. See the Parable of the Wine skins and Peter's rejection of OT unclean animals. Second, you are judging one culture by another culture's time. Let's do make the difference between chattal slavery and slavery which brought a foreigner into another family's protection and care (and work!). I don't mean to minimize the second type of slavery, it was no fun, but in that day and culture, to have lost a war/battle was to face death or become a "slave" in the conquering nations society. The alternative was death and Israel was given limits on how they could treat such slaves. It was Christ who gave new status to women. The first universal statement of the equality of the sexes came from St. Paul (in Christ we are neither male nor female) and it fell on Roman and Jewish ears like a bombshell. Third, I admire your effort to help women of abuse. thank you. My only real point here is that Western society is deeply mired in flagrant wrong that it doesn't even recognize and stands in no place to judge another culture of any time or place. Fourth, making money is not evil but good and I commend anyone who does it honestly be he priest, preacher or stockbroker. The point however is that these points made by the New Atheists have been discussed by scholars for thousands of years and reasonable answers have been given. Regarding Hammurabi, it matters nothing to me the source, its limit on the blood feud was a step forward. Christ's further advance on the code goes to the heart of the matter, mercy is better yet than justice. Fifth, Yes the atheists mentioned did follow their ideology and their atheism provided no brake on it. Regarding the Crusades, thank God for them. If it were not for the Crusades you and I would be speaking Farsi. Europe was almost lost to the onslaught of the Muslim invasion and it was the Crusades and the Battle of Tours that finally brought it to a halt. Spain was lost, Constantinople was almost lost, Europe was hanging by a thread. Catholic Protestant wars, shameful but largely instigated by the local princes jousting for power using religion as a pretense as did Hitler. Most murder, rape, extortion, marital infidelity, lying cheating stealing etc ad nauseum, is committed by atheists (practical atheists to be exact). It is not the one who says "Lord ! Lord!" who believes but the one who does the right. Are there people who believe in no god who live morally exemplary lives? Of course. Wish they all did. Don't think think that someone who labels himself "Christian" and doesn't walk the walk, means it. Also, I am not arguing for the perfection of myself or Christians in general but the believer who doesn't desire to follow the life of Christ is not one. However, the atheist who robs the bank voids no tenet of atheism. The assumption that if morality derives from God, it must always be the same is just that: an assumption and it is one that theologians don't share with you in fact the whole "plan of God" is an evolving one. The most notable evolution being the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31) and the cessation of the Old Testament sacrifice system and the reversal of the command "Come ye out and be ye separate" to Christs "Go into all the world....". Morality is uniquely human. The existence of "moral" behavior among animals is not morality in the sense we speak of it. If it were, we would be holding trials for errant animals........ and we don't.

mohamed khan he forgot to say transphobic and anti-semitic because there are transphobic and anti-semitic verses in the bible

Coming from an atheist, he has no grounds to say anything about God

@@warriorsofchrist1_342 Why Because, Dawson got all of his information from your so called holy book?

Why?

Why indeed not!?

Whatever floats your boat.

I make a conscious effort to refrain from using the word god in my language. I now say "oh my goodness" however, it's just an expression even if I say god. Like saying "oh shit!" Doesn't mean I am referring to actual shit.

I heard about an atheist named Joseph Stalin. They say he killed over 100 million of his own people and thousands and thousands of Germans too. Some people think he was violent. Oh yeah, there was this other guy in the news the other day. Some commie named Kim Jung IL from North Korea. They said he and his dad killed a bunch too. And Mao and Pol Pot and quite a few others I think.

I've heard that what you're trying to imply (Stalin was an Atheist, and Stalin was a tyrannical nutjob, therefore atheists are tyrannical nutjobs) is known as Guilt by Association, a logical fallacy where you try to conclude that because a few people are bad, then all people with the common attribute are bad. Basically, your logic is bad and your intent is to make atheism look bad, not Stalin/Kim Jong Il/Pol Pot themselves. To prove a point, I can spew bullshit like that too. You know this guy named Fred Phelps? He was a Christian. He went around America picketing funerals of grieving soldiers and their families. He put up signs like GOD HATES FAGS and blamed the 9/11 attacks on America having bad policies. He abused his children horribly and was branded as 'the most hated family in America'. In the end, even his own sons left him and he was excommunicated by the very church he founded. Oh, and there was this televangelist named Pat Robertson. He scammed millions of dollars off people who couldn't afford anything and sold people 'divine water' that was thought to be able to cure any disease but had no real medical approval. He blamed Hurricane Katrina on America's abortion rights and Haiti's earthquakes, which killed hundreds of thousands, because they worshiped the devil. Do you see how bad that logic is? Now compare it to your own. Though, to help justify your actions, you did it in a response to someone who used the same logic, so I won't give you too much flak. However, I will introduce to you Godwin's Law, which says that if on any discussion the comparison to Hitler or a Hitler-like figure appears, the person who brings Hitler and/or co. up instantly loses the debate due to sheer inappropriateness or absurdity. So please don't use it. It's just absurd.

Well, they are rude because they are ignorant brainwashed zombies who do not think for themselves, and that in essence ir very ironic because they are supposed to be better than us Agnostics and Atheists, solely because of their believes, but morality like it says in the video, is not a church but a decision.....

Bill Asbury Well then we are equal... People of god have killed more people than any other people on earth, your arguments?

Daniel Eikefjord People of god have killed more people than any other people on earth I don't feel the need to defend all religions any more than you feel the need to defend every robber, liar, adulterer, drunk and murder who was an atheist. I do try to defend first century Christianity (orthodoxy) but am unmoved to defend actions by so called (or otherwise) Christians who commit their acts in opposition to Christ's teachings. Let give up on this "I am more moral than you" nonsense and agree that all of us are moral failures as indicated by the Old and New Testaments and in particular St. Paul in Romans 1-3. You believe you will ultimately answer to no one, we believe we will answer to Christ and have therefore solid reason to seek to adhere to what he says.

If morality is subject to change then why are the Israelites condemned for what they did? Why is a different culture thousands of years old bound by our moral code of 2016?

A lot of Christian "morality" is nothing but PRUDISM, which I think people are better off without anyway.

Well Kevin I guess you are right, she should have taken the call but this doesn't seem to be the foundation for much of a discussion. A Christian did something wrong. Being a Christian is not the same thing as saying "My practice of morality is unsurpassed". Who has ever claimed Christians can do no evil and atheists can do no good? I've never heard that but thank you for helping this lady out.

Bill Asbury Hi Bill. Thanks for your comment. From the videos I've watched and people I've encountered, I've seen/heard frequently that all morality comes from god, and that if someone does not believe in god, they can have no morality. I can't speak for all religious people, but only for the ones I've encountered, or seen online. And an argument that I as an atheist have encountered, as have many others, is that religious morality is superior and that atheists can have no morality. And at times, it has felt condescending, and almost arrogant. So if my initial comment is a bit biting, that's why. Again, I can't speak for all religious people. I try to do right by people and try to cause the least harm. I'm not perfect, (nor do I think anyone else claims to be), and I will never claim to be, I just try to do right by people and help those who need it.

Kevin Kurtz Kevin, Thanks for your thoughtful response. Morality appears to be ingrained in human nature or at least the knowledge of it. This appears to be so universal that we Christians have used this as an argument for God's existence. I find it compelling others may not. The problem has always been: We all know 'the good' but often choose 'the wrong', whether we are religious or not. In fact this is St. Paul's argument in the early chapters of Romans. This is not to say atheists don't do good things, they certainly do. Had a friend at work who was an atheist and a very nice guy. My problem with atheism (or so I see it) is that it destroys the BASIS for morality (again, this is NOT to say this must result in bad actions). One way of putting this is: Can one be moral without God? NO Can one be immoral with God? NO The point is: If we live in a world where there is no Law Giver, there can be no Law. If there is no Law, one certainly cannot break it. All moral judgement then devolves to human opinion and the human opinion of one man is no greater than the opinion of another. I can't write rules for you and you cannot do so for me because we don't have authority over each other. It seems to me, genuine morality can only be grounded in a Being of a higher order than a created man, a Being with authority above and beyond man's opinions. Of course to me. this Being is the Biblical God. What say you? Regards,

Bill Asbury Hi Bill. Thank you as well, for a thoughtful reply. I guess I would take issue with you saying that people cannot be moral without God. I do good things often and I do right by others when I can, I do right by my 11 year old son, as well as my ex-wife (and that's a tough one, lol), and God has nothing to do with it, it's what I believe is right. I myself believe that people deserve to be treated respectfully and that people should do right by each other, just because it's proper, and for no other reason. And I have done my share of bad, but I try to go to the offended party to try and make things right. I'm not always successful, but I do try. You said yourself, that you had an Atheist friend, who was, "a nice guy". I'm sorry, and I don't meant to offend, please know that, but to say that people cannot be immoral with god just shows a lack of knowing, or a desire to live in denial. The headlines are, and have been replete with the many, many transgressions of religious people, many of them actual pastors. And a cursory look at history reveals many immoral and cruel things done in the name of God, including the South justifying slavery with the Bible, which they did. And as a former believer, I can attest that three different times, a pastor of a church I was going to, was defrocked for adultery, and with a congregation member, and one of them took advantage of multiple emotionally fragile women he was counseling. That sounds immoral to me, and it is in the ten commandments. As a social worker I would lose my license and face prosecution if I had sex with a client. Those are my thoughts, thanks for reading them.

Bill Asbury Just one more thought. The whole basis of 9/11 was religious. People willing to die and kill other in the name of their God

That is because before all else, you should love the God who created you and obey his commands. That is what Jesus told his disciples was the highest commandment in the New Testament. All of these examples are from the Old Testament. The world was different then, as were God's instructions to the Israelites.

Sam Rice So, here's the next troll. Now, before I even begin, let me tell you, I am an atheist, I am a moral, hard-working person of society, I am an ex-Christian, and I've dealt with people like you before. If you want to argue someone, don't waste anybody else's time and just go against me. I'll expect your reply within this month. You can contact me through the notifications on the top right of your screen (regular computer).

Yeah! Now we can live like we want to!!!! yeah! right? I mean it's the way to go isn't it? Yeah! wait a minute I lost my car keys, and what was that password? shoot I can't remember that combination to my safety box at the bank. Damn! somebody's gonna get my stuff!

i meant that if u can only get your morals from a book you are a failure as a human beign. not that a note is useless.

Alex Popp Alex, I just don't get what you are saying. Is it fine with you that we obey The 10 as long as we don't write them down? wazup with that? We don't really "get our morals from a book" (I know its not worth mentioning that people write books), we get them from somewhere else and then write them in books so we have a common standard. When we adopt the idea of radical freedom, that every man can do "whatever is right in his own eyes", civilizations collapse. So where do we get morals from Alex? Is it just what the biggest number of people say? If that is all it is, then it is just a matter of power ("might makes right"). If that is the case then the powerful can write any law they want and the rest of it must then agree that it IS right (because the Powerful said so). Neither you nor I can live with that. In our depths we know certain things are right or wrong and it doesn't make a bit of difference whether a lot of people say the opposite or not. Living so is called courage.

It's a man-made construct.

Forgotten Baguette i disagree, i believe that we evolved to be obligated towards behaviors that benefit our species. that makes more sense to me than any other argument concerning the origin or morality.

Zenthex I agree that with you.Evolution has played a part in developing our morality but i don't think it is the only factor.Just my opinion.

@@thegreekpirate4090 we all have a inner sense of right or wrong, which makes us more valuable of animals since we know better. pretty damn simple

A lot of Christian "morality" is nothing but PRUDISM, which I think people are better off without anyway.

exactly human nature

A lot of Christian "morality" is nothing but PRUDISM, which I think people are better off without anyway.

Thats presuposing, that surivial is a good thing, why is it a good thing if there's no God? why not monkeys? Or antelope? Or spiders? Flawed argument

@@warriorsofchrist1_342 when did I say that survival is a good thing ? I said that my morality in part comes from the will to survive. It means that I already have the will to survive and I form my moral groundings partly from that will. I never said that this will is a good/bad thing, only that I have it and form my morality from it. And what about monkeys, antelopes, spiders ? You are talking about flawed logic, learn to construct a proper question first before you expect an answer.

@@SC-zq6cu you said Morality comes from "Logic and will to survive"- let's assume that's true , your presupposing, that survival is a good thing. "do stuff I want to do"- which is your personal opinion. "your logic is flawed"- how so? If there is no Objective, authoritative, unchanging refrence beyond us, then humans aren't any better than animals or insects, and everything is just a matter of opinion. So if u tell me Murder is wrong, there must be a standard above you which says it wrong, or else its your opinion against mine. That's my point. But there is objective truth, otherwise an atheist couldn't be true that there was no God.

+Uranium Morality is doing what is right regardless of what is told. Really ??? What has happened in contemporary Western society is the promotion of democratic ideas beyond reason. It's often been noted that democracy carries within itself the seeds of its own destruction. Your brain is dieing..so dont rely on it to much broo

@@pasainchina97 "Dieng" 😂 Yeah, sure... saying he is brain sick while you yourself can't even spell such a simple word

Obviously there has to be some give and take though also. Things must die for things to live. The strongest most adaptable survive. Even the smallest second of life means more then any possible injustice within the life. It is better to have lived a "horrible" life by comparison to others then to have never lived at all.

Paul, It isn't made up. If it were made up, it still deserves your critical attention as it is the foundational document of Western Civilization. If we do come to the decision it is a myth, we are in dangerous territory. If there is no God (like ZERO God) then we cannot speak of morality any more than we would speak morality to a spider who mates with her husband and then kills and eats him. If morality is a human construct, then any human can construct one and we all lose the ability to rationally critique one behavior over another. Go ahead and molest those little boys if it brings you gratification, who is to say NO? no one. My construct is as good as yours....... unless you believe there is an over arching moral code which all men know, which no man wrote and and no man completely adheres but to which we are all accountable. Sound familiar?

No! you idiot,it is your crowd that molests little boys,( I know!) And it is plain that these sick buggers also knew they were not being watched by their god while they do it...repeatedly F...you are seriously deluded All morality is man made, obviously not all of it good, We/ I define what is good as much as the next man/woman. Concensus rules for example some dangerous idiots think cutting the cunts off their daughters,is moral, good and necessary it has been woven into their equally perverse religious beliefs.(Islam+ others!) I do not. I trust we agree on this! I used to think Homosexuality was a mental illness, now I think countries that put them to death are mentally ill., Even though I dont get it, it is none of my business But if you choose to have all your thinking done for you by ancient ignorant wankers from the desert, then live by the 10 commandments, and all the nonsense that comes in the OT Who do you think created the spider that eats it mate? How did we come to refine our morality ? to throw out the obviously insane stuff in Deuteronomy and Leviticus, by using what we learned from the old golden rule of not doing to others that which we would not want done to us. or do you yearn for bringing back the stoning to death of willful children and the owning of slaves? I think perhaps you do. It is the morality of the utterly insane God you have selected to believe in The one invented by some Inferior desert demagogue/ despot to try and get control over fools and women. My version of events makes far more sense than yours and I trust my abilllity to think for myself, whenever moral distinctions are called for, I dont need a book so far removed from reallity

Bill Asbury We only have man made ideas at all times. That is why many of them are no good ! The "morals" in the bible are no better than our other ideas, because they all come from the same place. the human mind. The persecution of the Jews came from the church, Only retracted in 1964 ! the Jews provided the book,the messiah and the vital crucifixion without which there could be no church, do you not see the hideous flaw in this "Divine" thinking If there really was a god behind the Morals in the book it would be obviously superior to the rubbish that drove our history so far! It was an attempt to pass evil ideas off as Good ones, ie (1 Misogyny,2 Genital mutilation,3 Slavery, 4 Stupidity,5 Worship, 6 Genocide, 7 Blind obedience, 8 Infanticide, 9 Priests, 10 Scapegoats,11 Bullshit, Life AFTER death, 12 Unquestionable Authority), need I go on? Look at Islam ALL mysteriously dictated by a Convenient and Imaginary Super Authority that happened to demand whatever the Prophet (s) wanted ! I on the other hand have to take responsibility & make sure I am not badly wrong ,or no one will ever take me seriously again. It s simple, be sensible, think for yourself, challenge your own assumptions, be the best you can and try for a better future. Because the blood soaked God Bullshit Past was crap !

Paul J Paul, I am more concerned about all that Man made Bullship Past that we have lived through for all or recorded history. That evil people take religious belief and use it as a tool for their own ends doesn't make be mad at God but at Man who is the distorter of all that is good. I am of course a Christian and I too despise much of what has been done IN THE NAME of Christianity but that isn't Christianity and surely we can tell the difference when we study Christ and when we study people like Joseph Goebbels who used facism to manipulate the German church into accepting atrocities. However, anyone who seriously wants to tell the difference between Goebbels and Jesus can do so. The church doesn't define Christianity, Christ does and at times the Church can go horribly wrong but don't mistake that as a flaw in the Designer but rather in the Operator. Again, listen to what you are saying: "The "morals" in the bible are no better than our other ideas,because they all come from the same place. the human mind." Somewhere in your conscientiousness you seem to be able to discern ideas, all which come from human minds, to be either "good or bad". But if these moral ideas come only from human minds how is it that you are able to judge one act from another? You seem to be aware of a standard that is beyond human minds and to that standard you compare the thoughts of human minds and conclude some acts are evil and some are good. You were clearly able to do so in your comments above and identified good and evil. Can you really envision a society where WE merely define theft as "good" or murder is acceptable if I need it to be so, or lying is the basis of law? We know that societies such as this cannot survive. We recognize we were BUILT to behave a certain way and that no other way of living can be merely declared to be "right". I understand and respect your anger but direct it at the proper culprit (please).

Bill Asbury Sherlock Holmes said,eliminate everything that is false and whatever is left, however unlikely, will be the truth. this kind of philosophy /truth wrapped in fiction is as good as anything in the bible.Little dashes of common sense, woven into the fiction But it does not prove that Sherlock Holmes or Jesus was ever real. The culprits are whoever invented/ wrote it and the charlatans who promote it And the tedious idiots who Quote it as the indisputable word of god. Which bit of "It is all bollocks" are you struggling to not understand? Belief is just wishful or fearful thinking, either you want it to be true. and are a psychopath or you fear it is true,and need rescuing from the eternal nightmare of uncertainty. Read, or listen to Christopher Hitchens reading, God is not Great., and get free

william johnson Good point. But people still try to bring up slavery in the bible to prove God was evil.

Thanks. People try to bring up anything in an effort to prove God as evil, but nothing will work. There is always a reason why God punished people.

william johnson So please indulge me, if you will, what sins did the infant children of solom and gomora commit to deserve to be drowned?

"Solom and Gomora?" The correct spelling is Sodom and Gomorrah. The infant children of Sodom and Gomorrah did not commit sin. Also, the cities were consumed by fire and brimstone, not water (drowned) as you suggest (Genesis 19). What's your point?

william johnson no point of debating with Priximus225 he doesnt know what he's talking about.

Matthew 34-36 Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Who said that?

sickofwashington Sick, We both know that Jesus said that and the is precisely what has happened. There will always be an estrangement when two people have different foundational beliefs. We all make choices and choices have consequences. It is true in my case as I have two daughters, one is a believer the other is not. I love them both and we are all close but there is a measure of estrangement with the one who doesn't believe. There are certain issue we dance around and we know there is a divide of some consequence between us. Such will always be the case when deeply held beliefs differ. Though I don't know you SOW, I would imagine we could have interesting conversations and be cordial but we would know there is a divide between us. I do hope you read the New and Old Testaments allowing authors (and speakers) to use every literary device for effect that is at their command. If one chooses to read literature in a wooden legalistic fashion when it wasn't written in that way, you will find outrages but the bucket load. We do have the ability to interpret the Bible as we would any literature using the author's intent as a guide. When we look at the character of Christ we know violence was not his character. He was silent before his accusers, He told Peter to put away his sword after Peter chopped off a man named Malchus' ear, he preached forgiveness and love etc etc. I hope you will allow Him to use hyperbole when appropriate. I believe it was in this spirit that Jesus said what he did. I am aware of many friends who have been rejected by their families when they embraced Christianity. Yes, Christ said He came to bring a sword but it wasn't for the believer to pick it up and use it but rather for his accusers. It has been the character of the Christian church to be non violent and when it has not done so, everyone recognizes that it has acted out of character with its Founder. So called Christians have done reprehensible things but when they have done so they have done it not in accordance with his teaching but in spite of it. You often hear it in the accusation "you say you're a Christian but you don't act like one!!". The recognition of course is that the accused is acting in opposition to his stated way of behavior. I think we see this in our contemporary culture in that it seem acceptable to publicly disdain Christians for to do so is rather safe. To do so with Jihadists is another story.

Bill Asbury Did it just take that whole wall of text to justify those three verses? It's amazing the mental acrobatics you had to perform in doing so. You'd think an omnipotent being would have better communication skills. Anyways, bravo! Well done! That had to take a hell of a lot of practice!

grow up and learn from life dood ... you are so fucking spoiled by the bullshit they fed you ... there is no god, PERIOD! no loki, no apollo, no mars, no thor ... you have been fooled - hopefully not beyond cure

18dot7 I don't think so 18, Thomas Aquinas' "Five Ways" is a good place to begin if you want to know there is something beyond the material world. I have grown up and I have seen the path of Christianity offers and it seems wise to me. I see a society that has largely rejected the belief that formed it, and the results aren't pretty. Lokey Mars and Thor aren't really in play as they lacked the intellectual underpinnings required to support belief. There are really only two religions in the world today (if you don't count animism) and they are Judeo Christianity and Hinduism. All the rest are derivative.

hahaha good joke

God is the only moral reason we all don't kill. We might fear being caught but that's not a moral reason. Basically humans are opportunistic and so society has spent centuries building up fortifications against the opportunistic. Those fortifications are so ingrained into our behavior by our society, that atheists think they were born good.

@@matthewtenney2898 if you raise a baby and told him that killing and stealing is morally right would his morals be good? It would be good for him since killing and stealing is morally good for him does that mean his morals also come from god?

but its the word of god, how can it be wrong?

And I can see that you keep up to love and truth all through the history. The Inquisition was sure founded in love and truth. The crusades sure as hell were a proof of love and truth. Even nowadays, priests show their love to little boys...

Common sense aka your conscience, which comes from God.

Happy anniversary!