Race was not good. 4 wide, 50% throttle is a glorified parade lap. When they really get to racing it's just locked 2 by 2 and no one can go anywhere. The race sucked, the calls just made it suck worse
@idkIamBORED what he is saying.... if the 9 is involved. Everyone gets towed/pushed back to pit lane. If 9 is not involved(Josh berry last week) you go to the garage.
Logano at pocono? Blaney bad broke car parts out side of a toe link. Something that takes longer than the 5 minute clock policy…..”if Eliott does it” they’ve done it countless times for drivers who couldn’t make it back they haven’t just towed people to the garage for having flat tires with damages. “HOOK THE FUCKIN TRUCK TO THE FUCKIN”…..that’s Logano screaming at officals faced backwards in turn one not able to move. Respectfully shut the fuck up.
Keep in mind that 23XI and Front Row drive different manufacturers and are rivals. This lawsuit that they came up with and their teaming up for this off track activity is interesting.
@@alexbuchanan4087 I Agree; But I Believe NASAR Has Overreached And I Believe All Teams, Manufacturer's Should Have SHUT THIS DOWN. I Believe As Fans We Can Agree With This....
@Zoni26 only 3 cars got towed. That argument is asinine. The 3 extra cars had no effect on the quality of the finish. Not much difference between 8 and 11
Getting out from under a legal and binding contract signed under duress is a winnable case in the hands of a savvy attorney. The old Michael Corleone quote from 'The Godfather' is NASCAR'S unwritten rule: "(my father) assured him, either his brains or his signature would be on that contract." Ps: Having Elton Sawyer - a prime example of a 7-Up'er ('never had it, never will') as the VP of Competition is as useful as a screen door on a submarine.
Bottom line is what Kyle Larson was told to do was against the rules. Last year when Cole Custer was told to back off and let someone else finish higher there was massive penalties. Yes that was affecting a playoff spot, but the rule states that you must try 100 percent at all times. To back off intentionally is against the rules.
NASCAR can't get out of its own way. I mean the PR department is absolutely garbage in terms of trying to protect its name. All eyeballs on the sport and they come out looking like fools with a rule change no one even knew about. I need to get a committee of successful former drivers, crew Chiefs and so on to govern the sport.
hence why they need to be sued. at this point it's a literal disgrace and the favoritism is palpable. no other real sport would codone such malignant practices
Today on Law & Order: Organized Charters, more teams regret that they didn't stand up to the bullies of NASCAR with 23XI and FRM and were afraid of losing their valuable charters.
No. More like, a couple of disingenuous teams are changing their tune to try and help the case of 23xi and Front Row in the event it might benefit them as well. Nobody was forced to do anything and they got a decent deal.
@@jscott9360Please, tell us all of your vast knowledge of this new charter deal and the insider details you have that aren’t public knowledge and how less than six hours to review and sign under threat of losing their charters is a completely professional and fair business practice.
7:08 but here's the thing. Seriously. Gambling is now legal. the NBA just banned a dude FOR LIFE because he was betting on his own stats. A clip like this could absolutely be taken as the sport isn't on the up and up. How much money did this cost #6 car bettors? How much did it win #47 car bettors? Millions of dollars are on the line now, so this isn't just a question of manufacturers' loyalty, but one of competitive fairness. Am I blowing this up too much? Possibly. But it's a bad look when legal gambling is now a real thing
If i remember correctly, someone sued the NBA after the rigging games scandal and the case was dismissed because you arent guaranteed integrity and a fair game, its essentially just entertainment. That argument kinda goes out the window though when betting is wide-open. Curious how long it takes until someone loses a big sum and presses the issue again.
@sipock97 is absolutely right. The issue is not the gamblers. If Vegas gets hosed enough times with situations like this (the 47 was a longer shot than the 6), then Vegas will stop sponsoring, let be disinclined to sponsor in the future. That costs Nascar money.
@@sipock97 Sure, but you have to have some integrity to the odds offered. Otherwise it's just fraud. I imagine that you won't see a lawsuit simply because the wealthiest parties (gambling companies, casinos) will make their cut either way. But, eventually you'll get a degenerate gambler with just enough money left to throw a fit.
Here are the biggest questiosn for everyone, including you Eric, to answer. Also might make an appearance for Out of the Crowd. If NASCAR doesn't want to take good cars out of the race when they are just stopped on the track and are able to continue, then why the hell take charge of deciding which car is out and which isn't? And if you don't know why a car can't continue, then how does that justify you taking cars like Josh Berry out of the race when they are literally stopped and just need flat tires? I said it yesterday and I'll say it again. NASCAR officiating is getting worse, not better.
They forced Berry out of the race because he drives for Stewart Haas. NASCAR doesn't like TS because he can think for himself and isn't afraid to speak out. There is no freedom of speech in a crooked monopoly.
The lack of consistency is annoying and unprofessional. It makes the sport look bad and illegitimate compared to other forms of motorsports. If NASCAR doesn’t like a rule they have the whole off season to make the change, not in the middle of the Playoffs.
How about those overtime restart violations, that's probably the one that irks me the most, especially since the sport's stance now is just cheat the restarts in overtime, we won't stop you
Elton Sawyer's wishy-washy lack of backbone about any issue whatsoever is destroying trust in NASCAR. The officiating has always been a little iffy, but now it's downright bad. Not even sure if it's Elton or if Elton is a puppet, but whatever the case, the flip flopping of everything based on weekly opinions has gotten f'n ridiculous.
There is nothing that Elton will say about this to change my mind about the inconsistent DVP rules. As a Blaney fan that witnessed what happened at Watkins Glen. It just saddens me. I wish you can just forget the DVP and just go back to the garage and fix up these cars. If a driver goes back out on the track and alters a race by intentionally wrecking someone. Suspend them. It's that easy
@@MichaelWilliams-vb6wr your correct but where it was lap 1. Let the crews TRY to fix it. Let the crews be as useful as they used to be back 10 years ago. They probably wouldn't be able to for that specific issue but we won't know now.
@@MichaelWilliams-vb6wr NASCAR specifically lengthened the time you get to work on the car on pit road from 5 to 7 minutes because they clocked the time to replace a toe link at 6 and a half.
@@chaney22 Exactly! I was at Dover in June 1990 for the race where Dale Sr. broke a camshaft early, pulled into the garage, and the team and Dale, pulled the engine out, replaced the cam, put it back in and was back on the track at halfway (lap 250 for those that remember 500 mile races at almost every track). Dale won the championship that year by the number of points he saved by finishing that race.
I miss Mike Helton he was so much better than Steve Phelps and if the commentary booth was confused by officiating calls he'd personally stop in and explain why that call was made, Steve Phelps never has done this.
You mean like it used to always be? Don't let too many of those new age fans hear you say that...they'll call you boomer and to get with the new way, because the old way sucked. Yet the old way drew a TON more fans...
I don't mind the thing with Kyle Larson being reminded it's not a great look to push the Ford to the win when doing so doesn't give him any shot to win himself. Like when he pushed Brad clear on the backstretch, had he cleared as well and then made a move, that is his ideal situation. I don't think him nor pushing Brad to the win is really much different than Brad choosing not to move up in front of Stenhouse for fear that Ricky would split high and Kyle would stay low and get the win. Brad felt his best shot was to prevent Kyle from having a shot at the win. It's a non-troversy. The spotters do need to learn to shut up though. Come up with some sort of code the relay such messages at least.
Yeah but what if you push the ford, and it eliminates another good driver in the playoffs ford, Chevy Toyota whatever, stuff it then push the bloody ford
@@derektitch the only other people in the first two rows that really could have won was Byron (who locked in on points anyways) and Stenhouse, who isn't a playoff driver. Your scenario doesn't even apply
Pushing him clear probably would not have helped Larson very much. The cars have so much drag I doubt he could have pulled out and passed Brad on his own.
That race sucked. Idc what anybody says 4 wide is ridiculous. We need a system where every lap matters because right now these guys just putt around at 90% throttle holding formation until the end of the stage. It looks like these cars have governors on them
Imagine NASCAR revoked the charters. Gives 75% of the tv deal money to the race tracks and requires monumental payouts for race results. Hendrick, Gibbs, Sense get richer, everyone else fights for the crumbs and superspeedway lottery races. Road courses get diminished so Trackhouse and Kaulig don't get too powerful. And the Champions Purse is $20 million easy. Drivers pay is tied to race results and winning$, and 3 or 4 see huge pay increases over the current amounts.
Scrap the DVP. If a car needs a push to pit road or tow to the garage, DO IT! Then allow the teams time to work on the car, whether it takes 2 laps or 200. Let teams send cars back out, and set a minimum lap count for making speed, and if they don’t, DNF that driver/team. Not difficult in my opinion.
NASCAR/Jim France's official response or motion to dismiss is due by December 2. We may hear from them earlier if 23XI/FRM file their motion for preliminary injunction in the very near future.
The teams should definitely be able to decide if they want to continue the race or not. It would piss me off so bad if I got took out and there was a little or very easily fixable problem on the car.
Race car driver salaries have gone down because television viewership and in person attendance is down. I believe viewership, and attendance has trended up for NFL, major league, baseball, NBA, and probably hockey. That is economics.
Ooof Eric, I feel you, having a love for toxic slime candy and ooey gooey butter cakes will get you cavities. No but jokes aside, I hope you recover soon from your cavity/getting it filled man. Appreciate your openness and honesty even when talking about something personally you are dealing with/going through.
I really hope they change the rules this off season. All they really need to do is bring all cars back to the pit stall (as long as they are leaking fluids). This would give every team a chance to try and fix the car under dvp. If a team doesn’t think it can be fixed then they just radio NASCAR and tell them to take it to the garage. I honestly don’t even know why that already isn’t the case. Many cars in the next gen era have been retired even though they could have been fixed within the dvp.
The thing with Larson’s onboard and spotter “don’t push Brad” cause of OEM stuff, it’s nothing really to be surprised about. Whenever the cameras go to the aerial view u see times where certain manufacturers won’t push someone of another OEM to help their fellow OEM get up front. It’s been happening since late Gen 6. But lawsuit wise, I don’t blame Childress for signing it forcefully, in the end he runs a company and he’s gotta do what he’s gotta do for his company. And ik the teams and drivers aren’t completely on the 23XI and FRM lawsuit against NASCAR bandwagon for probably the same reasons, but even just the little bit of what Childress and Larson said is gonna make a big impact in this case and NASCAR is gonna have to be EXTRA careful with what they say since all this can be used against them. And even Larson’s statement of Sprint Car drivers making more money than a NASCAR Cup Series driver is just absolutely mind blowing. Like take like World of Outlaws for example. The top premier dirt racing series, a series that gets way less views than NASCAR, a Sprint Car driver there is making more money than a driver in NASCAR’s top division. That’d be like if a driver in IMSA, say like Jack Aitken whose a full time driver for Action Express Racing Whelen Engineering Cadillac, is making less money than a driver racing in GT World Challenge America.
Team orders still affect the outcome of the race. They should go back and look at smt data and dq Larson. But this is a sport that the rule book is wrote in pencil
Brad K was the only ford left in the top 10, ofc Chevy isn’t gonna work with him. After what happened at Daytona the Chevy manufacturer was mad and they expect Chevy to help each other. It’s just how manufacture goes it’s been this way all along and it’s just the way it is
NASCAR’s leadership has favorites. 12 Blaney & 4 Berry given DNFs. 9 Elliott (fan favorite) & 14 Briscoe given a free pass. Favoritism at its best! …and NASCAR keeps wondering why they are losing fans. Huh…
Team orders suck. I guess the SMT data would confirm/refute whether or not Larson backed off, but based upon his questions after the flag, I suspect he was afraid he pushed too much.
More money does not mean you have a binding contract. Let’s say I have a house going into foreclosure that I’m trying to sell for $500k. A buyer offers to buy for $100k and I say no. The foreclose deadline is tomorrow. Just because the buyer comes back and says here’s $300k cash if you accept within 6 hours does not mean we have a deal.
Actually all your arguments really say is that charters were a bad idea from the start. Salaries going down while charter prices going through the roof.
20 years ago, even after Dale Earnhardt died, the grandstands were packed at every track; hell, Daytona used to have packed grandstands on the backstretch that are now no longer there! Bottom line is the product is garbage and the new car is a complete, over engineered piece of shit! It's effin RIDICULOUS that they cannot drive back to the pits on four flat tires!
Yeah NASCAR was HUGE up until around 2010 really, 2007 was when the drop off started, but it was still pretty good then, 2010 is the last year I can remember getting driver shirts in Walmart and Meijer, after that diecasts were gone from stores until the 2011 season was done over with, and the next few years was just a big decline, and I stopped watching NASCAR the first time in 2013.
These new "fans" that NASCAR is trying to appeal to will try to say that its sooooo much better than the old way. There's a reason that races were sold out a year in advance. Bristol had a years-long waiting list to buy tickets. Tracks were adding seats every off season. TV ratings rivaled NFL every week, even surpassing them on some. Fans in campers came rolling into town along with the haulers every week, setting up camp, and following the series from track to track. Every establishment in town had a driver autograph session at least one time during the week leading up to the race. Brand loyalty was in full effect. Fans made their decision at the grocery stores, tire shops, auto parts stores, department stores, and restaurants based on what brands sponsored the sport, and their favorite driver(s) and/or team(s). Every week 50+ cars would show up attempting to qualify for the race. Tell me again how the new NASCAR is so much better? One of the many sayings that ole DW used to use was "Dance with the one who brung ya" NASCAR needs to follow that advice. It was a much better product then.
@DiamondPaintWithDiamondDave I'm only 31 and been called a boomer by these newer fans online, one told me he didn't like short tracks at all (that's blasphemy!) And the going back to how it used to be would kill it then one of his zoomer buddies managed to go on a longwinded rant how horrible the old NASCAR was and how boring it was and how us "boomers" are so stupid we don't just love the new because we can't let go
@@DiamondPaintWithDiamondDave and these new "fans" will abandon NASCAR as soon as something else shiny gets their attention...same way with F1 Drive to Survive got their attention but as soon as they figured out not every season was like 2021 they left and found NASCAR and they'll leave NASCAR too.
I think this OEM thing is just ridiculous in a spec sport. Sure, don't push another team to the win because it can hurt you in the standings, but not pushing another OEM at any and all costs??? The only difference of the cars in NASCAR are the decals, and maybe a minimal design choice of the body shape, which still has to conform to NASCAR rules.
I wish they were more spread out at plate tracks these days. The runs are too big and when you're being pushed by four cars back (who can't see anything) you simply can't not drive thru the guy in front of you when there's a big gap. Lift and you're the one getting wrecked. Don't lift and everyone blames you. Was the two car tandem better?
The way that the officials handled Briscoe and Elliott this week is the way it should always be handled. If a driver or crew decide that they want the car brought back to the pits to have a better look to see if the damage is race ending or not then go from there. That gives NASCAR officials an up close look at the damage on the vehicle as well, then a quick discussion could be had about whether or not they can continue. I realize this wouldnt always work, especially of its a huge wreck like that one and there's only a few tow trucks available. Still something like this feels like it could be worked out. You can usually tell visually if a car can continue or not on tv when they show the wreck. If they decide from visual the car looks okay enough then get the tow trucks to bring them back to the pits, then figure it out. I dont think its something that would be hard to figure out at all if they really wanted too but hey i don't get paid the millions to make those decisions
Nothing new about the manufacturers wanting to boost their own brands while avoiding help to the competition. As far as the lawsuit again, the France's have been greedy and sometimes borderline incompetent in their management of the sport. The world was their oyster in the early 2000s and they squandered all of that through stupid decisions. The teams deserve more control.
Dale Jr admitted to not pushing Mike Skinner because his dad didn't like Mike and he didn't want to make his dad mad. With Byron on the outside, it wasn't just a manufacturer call, Hendrick had another car in a better position to win the race..
13:10 the vagueness of the "Teams making more, and having the largest share of the pie" sounds like the teams should be making "way more", but realistically if it went from 65% track, 25% teams, 10% Nascar, to a 34% Track, 36%Teams, and 30% nascar(shifting their portion from the track to themselves in the break down). yes the teams are making "more money" but is it really "way more money". The Vagueness bothers me. Someone should have leaked the % by now.
I think your question about money vs. control is valid. Whenever I look at this lawsuit I keep thinking "are we looking at a battle between two evils here?" I don't think 23XI's argument is invalid, but the lawsuit seems to be a bit on the extreme side *if* the end goal of the lawsuit was for the teams to get more money and a bigger slice of the pie in NASCAR's decision making. I'm almost not wondering if we'll end up on the opposite spectrum of what the lawsuit is implying if we do end with permanent charters, intellectual property rights, and teams having a bigger seat at the table. I don't want NASCAR to become an illegal monopoly, but I also don't want the teams to become that way, either. That said, it's still early and I don't think there's enough imformation for anyone besides the people on the inside to make an informed decision. My suggestion would be to just "wait and see" as they say, but man... this could turn into a nightmare for fans of the sport.
It already is. Fans pay more for tickets yet the show is not as good. TV coverage has way too many ads. Side by side coverage is absurd unless you have an 80 inch screen.
hence why they need to be sued. at this point it's a literal disgrace and the favoritism is palpable. no other real sport would codone such malignant practices
To me, if you're going to pit together as teams and OEMs, try to draft together as teams and OEMs, it's fine to try to win together as teams and OEMS on the last lap of the race.
Yeah even waaaaaay back when Smokey Yunick got sick of the France's BS and left and went IndyCar racing...crazy thing is the man somehow predicted that eventually NASCAR would switch to a playoffs for the championship...he said this in an interview with Diecast Digest magazine.
7:05 "Code blue" was mentioned several times in the restart. Into 3 on the last lap Mond says something to the effect of "get the 6 clear so he can slide up. If he doesnt, remember code blue." Not opposed to the team orders happening, but its fair to highlight that it happened more than just the trioval
Just say it like it is, sawyer is a liar and he makes it up as he goes along. They didn’t get berry’s call wrong, they should have been consistent and they weren’t. Sawyer is just slinging Bull Shit!!!!!!
I don't get the part when there is a big crash with like 8 laps to go, and the race just turns in its head, how can we lose that much of racing that we immediately go to overtime. I would have loved 8 more laps of racing, especially cuz the race was stopped by a red flag. I think Stenhouse couldn't maintain first if there were actual racing left with the damaged car. It would have been good from a sporting and show perspective. Also if there is a red flag, it should allow NASCAR to make the right decisions in the meantime about Stenhouse, Elliott and Briscoe as well so... Or use the 8 minute rule. At least it's like that in Europe, that red flag allows the stewards to catch up with everything and make sure that everything is proper for the restart, now it seemed rushed. We just had the biggest crash, audiences are glued to the screens, we can have 10 more minutes of break.
I argue that the call to Larson to not push Brad to a win violates the rule regarding drivers driving and racing for the best position they can. I forgot what exact rule that is. But it would also invoke actions detrimental to stock car racing if I'm not wrong. Last I heard there is a written rule that requires drivers to give it 100% in terms of trying to achieve the best finishing position it can. While we know sandbagging is a thing and 90% of the time it can't be proven, this can. And radio monitoring happens on all drivers now. So it should be damn easy to catch this sort of thing now
Sprint car drivers making more than some CUP drivers! That’s literally like a part time security gate guard making more money than an fbi agent! NASCAR really needs to get their sh!t together!
Not necessarily. If he pushed harder the 6 would still have barely won and he likely would have still finished behind Stenhouse and Byron who went to the third lane.
Cheatrolet tactics are don't push other mfg. - but I remember a daytona race where Gordon won because a FORD CONSTANTLY PUSHED HIM, WITHOUT GORDO EVER HELPING PUSH THE FORD BACK - ASSCAR/SHITROLLING HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OF EVERYTHING IN THIS PIECE OF SH-T PRETEND TO BE COMPETITIVE/EQUAL RACE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!! SHITBOYS ON THE WAY TO WINNING 40 OF LAST 50 YEARS MFG. TITLES( 2/3 OF TOTAL NASCRAP HISTORY) SAYS IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CORRUPT ASSCAR/SHITCAR PACT TO ARRANGE, FIX, RIGGING OUTCOMES FOR OVER FIFTY YEARS IS COMPLETE BULLSH-T!!!!!!!! ULTIMATE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!
Richard Childress and all the other teams should have done what 23XI and front row did. band together and sue NASCAR because it’s true it’s not fair that at a time where NASCAR is making big money deals the teams that put all the money to put on a show and compete can’t survive even with sponsorship money. Remember back in the day that teams with no sponsors raced and survived by purse money alone. And now NASCAR doesn’t want to share its profits or even what is fair
I'm thinking that they should not have signed that bogus contract and should probably have gone on strike. Even if we didn't get to see races for a month or two, it would help the teams and employees. I agree with both of those teams that did not sign
I agree, I can't say if NASCAR didn't hold races a while with other racing leagues existing I'd really miss them as much, this has been the worst season in my 20 years as a race fan.
The revenue increase while also seizing some control over the teams feels almost bribe like. I know these obviously are different things and scenarios but it feels like a temptation to get them to shut up and sign the deal while NASCAR still gets the upper hand. Sweetening the deal I suppose, making it *just* good enough with money that they don’t realize that the 3 other things they want are either not included or being worked against as well. The idea of being profitable finally just being too good for them
People act like Gibbs, Hendrick, and Penske are made of money. They are made of assets. I’d bet without looking at their balance sheet it’s a lot of fixed assets. I mean IMS is a pretty large fixed asset. Yes I’m sure a lot is income producing but the idea they can just roll the dice without tying up these assets on a lawsuit they might lose, they had no choice to sign. MJ doesn’t have to worry about that as much.
Back in the day, the value of a race team that went out of business was a bunch of equipment and cars that would sell for 20 cents on the dollar. No significant IP since Nascar owned the number and the race shop was usually rented. Gibbs, Penske, and Hendrick definitely have nicer hard assets now and some IP associated with the design of the car number / merch sales but the charter is really what creates long-term, perpetual value.
@@23lacross He said that early this year as the charter talks started up. Jeff didn’t clarify if it was strictly the race operations or the entire organization (i.e. the gift shop and engine program definitely make money).
Im sick of the stage separation making it a partial throttle race. 70%. Come on, thats insanely wrong. Drop the cautions or change the fuel tank. Its supposed to be racing not saving.
