He really did Captain Braxton a disservice by taking over his command, Braxton was clearly still invested in capturing his future version and doing his job. By taking away his command and putting him in the brig for crimes he has not yet committed, he basically just replaced Janeway as the cause of his misery. And armed with the knowledge of future problems they could have taken steps to prevent the crime from ever taking place. It's a complicated matter but for an advanced society that prides itself on science and co-operation, they really dropped the ball on proper procedures and guidelines on how to handle these issues.
Holding someone responsible in perpetuity for the actions of a possible future version of themselves obliterates the notions of free will and justice. Generally I like this episode, but that always bothered me. A lot.
@@acmenipponair Braxton being informed of the fall now has a choice, one that would play out in another timeline - as depicted literally everywhere else in Star Trek. Star Trek is deeply inconsistent, but for some reason, this episode alone adheres to a deterministic, single-history universe, and its annoying.
Okay but i kind of hate that they instantly turned on the "present" Braxton. He was right,nhe hadnt done anything, and as time agents they should have known that it didn't mean he was definitely going to do it. In fact, his arrest probably assured the fact that he would do this, if they'd let present Braxton apprehend himself it might have been different
No. Even the Future Braxton says BOTH of them are responsible. The whole point of the investigation was to see who planted the weapon. It is/was Braxton.
@@mrpyu8397 Future Braxton was insane at this point though, that feels like him making sure he gets to continue to exist rather than Present Braxton deciding not to do any of that shit.
@@mrpyu8397 Ordinarily I'd agree, but intentional or not, they kind of solved the paradox, the time ship is essentially unaffected by time, so Future Braxton can still and will have done all that, Janeway and 7 can and will stop him, but if they didn't re-integrate him, Present Braxton could have continued his life choosing not to do it , and Future Braxton could be detained, leaving them as separate entities
time cops generally could be considered as being outside of time. So anything they do and will have ever done will be fate. also, basically even if you try to stop him, the very act of doing so is what initiate the process so in the end he will always do exactly what he did. that's why they arrested him. It was basically a forgone conclusion.
"You are under arrest for crimes you are going to commit." Forget about the temporal mechanics for a moment. This is an INSANELY bad direction for a society to go in. What are you going to bring to the jury? Things that never happened? Testimony from a version of a person you erased? How is the accused supposed to defend himself? Relieving the man of duty due to conflict of interest with the temporal violation is understandable and should be part of procedure. Criminal arrest goes much too far.
Why do you think no one in their right mind is trying to work out how to time travel lets forget the fact that the act alone would change history in unforeseen ways but no one with a sliver of humanity would allow things like the holocaust for the trail of tears to happen
@@Argusthecat In Minority report though the future crimes weren't necessarily forgone conclusions - they were only predictions. Whereas the timeship can see what actually occurs in the future and in this case caught Braxton red-handed doing it. I still think it feels very off to arrest someone for crimes they haven't done, but it's not really like the situation in Minority Report.
He lists 2 not three this was probably the third and it was the fact that janway and her crew lead to him being arrested and losing his rank and career the triggered him
I look at them jumping here and there through time, and I remember one of the favorite statements of the Vulcans: - it has been proven that time travel is impossible! 😂
Can we talk about how fucked up it is to force someone to "integrate" with a potential future self that has gone mad in order to punish them? Like, holy shit... that could happen to ANYONE. Imagine finding out you have an alternate self who became a mass murderer and suddenly having to become them and pay for their crimes? That's so fucking wrong.
That's only if they came back to the same time that their original self was already in. Would be easier to just off the duplicate in whatever alternate timeframe and solve the problem that way.
"My name is 7 of 9. You must act quickly! I am a time traveler. In 9 years on 9/7 you will be 97 and I will be 79. If we don't jump 9 times left and 7 times right in precisely 7.9 seconds cats will no longer have 9 lives. They will only have 7, and Earth will be doomed."
Fun fact, in ST:Picard series finale "The Last Generation" The neo conny becomes rebranded USS Enterprise, making it the 9th ship in the line to bare the name its also the Enterprise G, G being the 7th letter in the alphabet so uh yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, all that just to push th e fact the ship is commanded by 7 of 9 or something along those lines.
Glad to see I'm not the only one pissed with how they treated Braxton. I feel that arresting someone in the present because you learned from time travel means that they're apparently going to commit, should be a violation of the Temporal Prime Directive. Though really, I have to imagine it already is because letting knowledge of the future change your present to avoid that future seems just as bad as using knowledge of the present to go back and change the past. In Braxton's case, since the reason he was trying to destroy Voyager was because in the future, he was going to suffer from temporal psychosis due to being sent to fix so many of Voyager's temporal violations, the simple fix for the 29th people is to just simply not send Braxton to fix any of them. Then he won't suffer from temporal psychosis and won't try to sabotage Voyager. Sure, this would also technically be a violation of the TPD but since what they actually do is basically the same thing (arresting him for future actions vs changing his job for future actions).
My comment was, how do you have a crewman running down a corridor with a phaser, past a fleet admiral and NO ONE attempts to apprehend him??? They all cower like BABIES. It was pathetic.
They had control of the transporters, as well as forcefields integrated. He had no real chance of escaping as far as they knew, and they're probably not trained for hand to hand combat.
@@ReallyRealBenMills They are military officers. They must be trained for hand-to-hand combat. There's totally no excuse no matter how it gets rationalized.
@@stratfordbaby8572 There's trained for combat, like it's your job, and trained for combat like you took a mandatory credit at the Academy and forgot it all as soon as time was up in the final exam.
@@stratfordbaby8572 They're not "military officers". I'm sure there are combat courses at starfleet academy or whatever, but they don't consider themselves a military nor their vessels military vessels so I don't think they'd consider themselves military officers. I think it's highly likely many graduates didn't even need to take a token hand to hand combat class depending on their role/division. And even if they did take a course at the academy, that's a far cry from being trained for hand-to-hand combat. Probably only the security/tactical officers had any *real* combat training and even then whether it was closer to security guard or genuine soldier training isn't really known.
The Lt. is an idiot. By taking command he's already upset the timeline, so he could have just waited until AFTER the incident and taken steps to either make sure he never gets stranded on Earth or gets his future self help.
Unfortunately the not being stranded on earth would further change the timeliness because without braxton timeship, the boom in computers wouldnt have occured. So he couldn't have done that, and without braxton on earth janeway wouldn't have been able to find the timeship and stop starling. Basically braxton got the O'brien treatment
@@1993bahamutThat's what I mean, they're vague on the "integrating them in to the timeline" thing. Capt. Braxton is clearly willing to do his duty and arrest his future self. So he would most likely go along with whatever steps it takes to ensure the future(most likely erasing his memory of this incident). Then focus on rehabilitating/helping the future(crazy) Braxton.
(Dutch's reaction to this, a muttered "You've got to be shitting me!" quickly became a popular catchphrase for fans of the show and has become a running gag during the show's run, used by various characters when they witness something shocking.)
This is the STAR TREK version of ' Time After Time ' . In fact, someone should compile All the STAR TREK episodes from All the series that deal with Time Travel.
Depends on how you found out about the future crime. If someone or some thing from the present (or past) predicted that you were going to commit a crime, then yes, you could possibly prevent it from happening, depending on the particulars. However, if it's like it is in this clip, where a future version of yourself is caught in the present committing a crime, then no, you are _definitely_ going to commit that crime and preventing it is completely impossible. The crime has already happened/is in the process of happening. That means any attempt at preventing it has already failed or the future you wouldn't even be there to commit the crime.
Yes and no you know the effect you comment a crime you do not know the cause what triggers you to do so in this case his arrest was finally the straw that broke the camel’s back and set him on the course to try to destroy the ship knowing if he was successful no one would know it was him and he creat a different future if he failed his younger self would be arrested and that version of him would try a different route
@@julien4327 That's not the point. They had a fleet admiral there and the escorts that are with him provided zero protection. They can see an unknown crewman with a weapon running down the corridor with another officer in pursuit. That's all they needed to know. Weapons are not to be out in the open, they are heavily controled and only in the possession of the security personnel. They were in Space Dock at this time. Remind me never to put you into a position of having to stop a bad guy in a public place. There are protocols. This is a military ship. This isn't a streetcorner Julien.
@@stratfordbaby Again, they have no idea that it is a bad guy or what the situation is. Plus the crewman was holding a unknown object, what if it was something sensitive that would explose if its is dropped ? To many unknown for anyone to make a rash decision like tripping they guy. And the all thing happens so fast as well... It's easy to analyse the thing after the fact... But when you have only a second to react, you're not gonna have time to analyse everything like that. And you can see him getting trap in force field right after. A much better way to apprehend him than trying to trip him. And starfleet isn't "military". Hasn't been since Star Trek VI.
Branching time lines this version of him is not the one we see at the end of that ep it’s the version that was trapped in the past that got recovered likewise the one trying to destroy the ship dosent care if he gets found out or not if he dosent he changes his past if he dose he triggers the events leading to his creation but his younger self knows where he went wrong and can try again
Now that's an interesting question. You find out without a shadow of a doubt that someone is going to commit a crime but as of now not only have they not but they have no intention of doing so. Is it right to arrest them?
If they arrested the captain on the bridge in the past, would his future self not disappear immediately, as would the need for 7 of 9 to even be there?
@@mynamejeff785 it's self-fulfilling, Future braxton mentioned "rehabilitation" and "years of exile"(something that might result from being arrested), incidentally this Future Braxton's decisions cause Present Braxton from his point to be arrested for no justifiable reason, this causes "rehabilitation" and "years of exile", with his whole life and career ruined he decides to go back in time to destroy voyager, because if voyager didn't exist then none of what happened would have happened. He has temporal psychosis because he's stuck in a time loop.
If you suddenly had to break through an armored castle wall from 1000 years ago, without any specialized tools prepared in advance for that kind of situation, do you think it would be easy?
1:40 "30 years of exile on 20th century earth" It wasnt that bad, he wound up joining Delta Tau Chi House, which gets placed in double secret probation
It would have been much more sensible, on Braxton's part, to prevent Voyager from reaching the Delta Quadrant, rather than causing its destruction *after* he'd met it. If he'd prevented it from leaving the Alpha Quadrant, Janeway would have had no motivation to do any sort of time travel. In his psychosis, he seems more motivated by vengence than by actually preventing the events that caused all those problems for him
This is some Minority Report shit here. Can they really arrest Braxton for "future crimes"? Now that he's aware of it, he can avoid it. So much paradox 😂
@@Tommy92gunner1. You're not too bright if you've already forgotten the context provided by the video. 2. Do you really think that no one in the world has ever heard of a crime being planned? Jesus Christ.
Braxton got what he deserved. If he had not gone back to destroy Voyager in delta quadrant the temporal explosion he saw would not have happened as it was HIS ship that caused it when he crashed on earth in the 70s and was stolen then taken up in space again and the time ship malfuctioned. Voyager had nothing to do with it
@@fefnireindraer144 Well you can't say for sure when he was actually compromised, and even if he wasn't, forcing him to deal with himself is an automatic conflict of interest. Yeah, pulling the phaser on him and calling him a criminal was a bit far, but he still should have been relieved of command at that point.
@@rafsolo You are all wrong, the LT taking command instead of letting present Braxton take care of the case creates a new loophole, everything Janeway was responsible for will now be the LT 's fault, he now has reason to commit, don't even presume, THAT's literally how wars were started.
Somewhat off-topic, but what's the point in subtitling on-screen actions in the closed captions? If a person can read the subtitles, then surely they can also see the actions being subtitled, right? It just seems redundant.
