100%. I’m kicking myself because I’ve used that example many times to show Jesus wasn’t afraid to engage in political speech. The thought crossed my mind that it was Jesus, but in the moment It didn’t even occur to me Ligon, the head of a seminary for years, would be wrong about something as basic as that! I figured I must have been mistaken. And for Sean Demars to not even catch it! I’m kind of still shocked he got that wrong and made it so central to his argument.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast I'm not in the reformed-contra-Big Eva loop. So, I have no idea who Duncan is. He may be as crummy as you say. But everyone makes mistakes on the fly. I've done it. I don't know why someone making a verbal slip-up causes so much sturm und drang.
@@RecalledtoLife I feel like this is more than just a verbal slip up. 🤷♂️ It's the theological basis for his argument of the character of Jesus, and using that against a group he says are not even Christians because of their attitude that he claims: "Jesus would never". But He did. I mean, come on. That's hysterical. And yes, we've all messed up like this before in one way or another.
@@RecalledtoLifeI agree with this, everyone slips up. But this slip up was actually a very pivotal moment in the argument Ligon was making. AKA this slip up turns his argument on its head. That’s why it is so ironic.
On Sunday I was reminded of how easier it is sing to hymns as opposed to some of these new songs. I felt my voice straining to sing the new songs and then we sang It Is Well With My Soul and I really noticed how much easier it is to sing.
Oh my, yes!!! The hymns l grew up with are understandable and sing-able.....they are a joy to sing.....the ''new'' stuff is a chore to sing.....or just mindless repeating the same phrase over and over......they become a performance, rather than believer's raising their voice in songs of reverence and joy to our LORD.
One reason you sing the old hymn better is that you know it, have sung it many times, and have the song in your muscle memory. That may seem too technical, but when you learn and grow into a new song, the same thing happens over time. That's why it's good to know and sing great songs that teach theological truth, because the music actually becomes physically and spiritually a part of who you are.
@@JesseDavis7373 What you say is true....to a point. l love all kinds of music..come from a musical family.....but the newer hymns l have heard don't seem to ''teach theological truth'', as you say. Perhaps it is the exposure l have had, but they seem to repeat the same phrases over and over ...and over again....they seem empty of real meaning to me.
@@barbaravickroy7563 there are some really bright spots out there: Matt Papa, Gettys, specific songs by popular Christian artists that proclaim the gospel, Sovereign Grace, etc...
"Kevin did a service to us writing on that..... it is a good warning...." The thing that gets me so worked up about what DeYoung did (and those who have come to his defense and agree with him) was his charge that the "Moscow Mood" is just so much about "lobbing grenades" when in fact they threw some of their own as well. And now that they've thrown their grenades, they refuse to sit down and discuss this with Mr. Wilson even though he has made it quite plain that he is willing to sit down anytime and in any place, that of their own choosing and with whomever they choose to bring along to discuss the issues that Deyoung and his Big Eva supporters have raised. What Mr. DeYoung did is, in my opinion very siilar to what Rush Limbaugh often said about the tactics that the secular media establishement uses - he described them as the "drive-by media". And the same thing can be said about what Mr. DeYoung has done.
@@RecalledtoLife - Don't get your shorts in a bunch - no one's going to ask you to sit down and chat anyway. Besides, Mr. Wilson would be more than magnanious to the most undeserving.
@@RecalledtoLifejust shows you aren’t walking in the truth, you are too busy playing political games. A Christian brother shouldn’t have any problem sitting down with another Christian brother, especially when you are going to start a debate like Kevin has, and throw accusations and then be unwilling to have an honest discussion on the issues he raised. Sounds like the move of a coward, and possibly a disingenuous “Christian”
I'm so weary of Christian interaction on social media. Maybe one day we'll start having productive and edifying conversations again, but it is not this day. Lord have mercy.
People aren't going to quit calling out wolves because you told them it wasn't edifying to you. People tried being "nice" now states are taking away people's children for not affirming their gender. Things need to be said and evil needs to be challenged.
@@person6768 But it seems that podcasting and social media posts have taken the place of actually challenging evil. Let's face it. This is the Laodicean church age. We just blather and blather on the internet about what we are "going" to do.
@@person6768 Totally agree with you. The stakes are high. The days are evil. Evil needs to be confronted by a strong, resolute church. So, considering the evil we face today, you'd think we would be more interested in having productive conversations instead of just talking past each other online. Social media is simply an inefficient and unhelpful medium for discussing the kinds of complicated and serious issues you mentioned. More often than not, it seems to lead to Christians bickering among themselves about foolish things instead of uniting to fight the common enemy. It's counter productive, because that kind of childish interaction does more to discourage the saints than encourage them. It's not about being "nice". I agree niceness is not the standard. The standard should be the biblical principles for wise and helpful communication laid out in Scripture, principles that seem to be completely ignored online. I'm not saying there isn't a proper and responsible Christian use of social media. I'm sure that exists, I just almost never see it.
Those were the giants from the nephalim, They were cannibals, and they were very evil and wicked.And they were eating people alive.Even the animals ride ridge from the nephalim
The points on the singing were wayy off. The song was lowered from its original key, it's a song written by a man for men to sing as a chorus, and the men weren't straining or trying to go an octave lower in the next verse-the video starts in the middle of the chorus where there's a climax, and then goes into the verse where the melody starts low. There's nothing feminine about men singing a ballad. This is just such a bad take on so many levels.
Exactly! And it is beyond parody that he said this in response to the interviewer asking Ligon’s response to people saying he doesn’t know his Bible 😂😂. What a she-fox Ligon is
Mike is a good guy and actually a worship leader as well in the past. I disagree with saying it sounded effeminate. Yes it was too high but that doesn't equate to effeminate. Some men could hit the notes no problem. Are they effeminate bc they have higher range? Are the women masculine when they have to drop the octave lower bc the male worship leader has such a high range? This is ridiculous.
The high melody argument is a ridiculous argument for saying that it is feminine. Have you ever tried to sing a tenor part (which are written for men) in most hymns is quite high. And the written melody of many hyms in published hymnals are high and hard for men to hit the notes, many of those hyms having very strong manly lyrics. So calling something a feminine vibe just because it is written kind of high is ridiculous. Not all mem sing in the basment. Some have higher tenor voices. Mike Winger was right in relating this to the pharasies. This was an actual correct use of the illustration, because the person writing this article is placing extra biblical requirements on people that are not in scripture. I dont know if it was this article or another one, but one was saying this is why you should not attend Shepherd's Conference. Maybe you should listen to some of Mike Wingers stuff. He just got done with his series on women in ministry, over 40 hours of video! He exposes just how bad the scholarship is on the egalitarian side. Winger takes a strong stance on masculinity and the role of men to protect their families and society.
This is why I don't get excited about someone in a state of pain leaping of the "anxious seat" and doing an alter call. The Christian life is a daily grind of faithful persistence.
I agree that the song was pitched too high, but I would not go so far as to use the term "effeminate" for it. That word has a definite meaning, and to use it in comparison with this situation is a violation. It would have been better to say that it was pitched to feminine vocals, which would be true. Another alternative would be to say that it was pitched for an alto or high tenor, which would have also communicated that the pitch was off. The pianist should have transposed the key, or the person leading the singing should have paused the music to instruct that a new key be enjoined. That being said to describe the music as effeminate is an unexcusable calumny. An example of "effeminate music" would be "We'll Convert Your Children" by that gay men's chorus in California. There, you have a deffinite set of high, lispy vocalists that are effeminate in behavior and vocalization. These are two very different compositions and participants, all of which show that it is unspeakably inaccurate to describe the unfortunate pitching of a song at Shepherd's Conference "effiminate".
I'm a musically illiterate buffoon who still can't tell what the issue is with what i heard. Yeah i can hear the pitch drop for the second verse or chorus but im failing to see how that's an error of some sort
I felt like ligon Duncan was projecting like he was on msnbc…if he and Kevin deyoung are so bold, I implore them to have an open discussion with Doug Wilson instead of lobbing grenades behind a keyboard. Better yet, why doesn’t he take Q and A at the conferences he attends?
"Squirrel"! hahahahhahahahahahha Seriously though, liked today's podcast. The 'News Roundup' format is interesting and I appreciate the link-breaks (or whatever they're called).
More churches should take control in music and actually teach their congregations how to sing and the basics of music theory. God commands us to sing, let's teach how. I think it was Brian Sauvé who mentioned what he does at his church, where they take time once a month to learn a new hymn and teach the parts. It's a potluck dinner, too, maybe on a Tuesday evening, if I'm not mistaken.
I think churches should be teaching the bible. It just tells us to make a joyful noise (Psalm 100:1). Yet another case in point on why women are not allowed to teach or have authority over men (1 Timothy 2:12).
@@RecalledtoLifewhen he’s serious, he’s good. When he tries to be funny and laugh/mock others voices it’s awful. Hence the lack of growth in his channel.
One of our songs is Psalm 3...the music is a Scottish melody...speaking of God breaking His enemies' teeth...I can hardly sing it, it's written so low...it's gorgeous, hearing the men sing it! Nothing gives me chills like a group of men singing!
Jon, Mike is correct about Pastor Armen's criticism, it really isnt warranted. Armen seems to have very strong opinions about a lot of things and seems to spend a great deal of time on twitter, this is totally blown out of proportion. What other songs were sung there? Is he cherry picking one? There are so many better ways to bring awareness to issues like male and female melodies and how to be wise and sensible in music selection for a congregation without trying to blast Shepherds and Bob as being effeminate in their selections. Com on, really? this is dumb infighting, making much of little.
Im glad you mentioned the Frank Turek statement and addressed that he needed to qualify his statement. Im sure he had a qualification in mind when posting that, but he may have forgotten to post that portion.
Can Ligon Duncan be more inappropriate as a so-called Christian leader?????!!!!! I guess that if anyone disagrees with Big Eva, then one must be a LARP!
Honestly the picking at the music thing is cringe. At worst, Bob Kauflin made a mistake not lowering the key, chill. The most effeminate thing is making a twitter post about it.
Yep. Seems pretty effeminate to me to stir up drama on social media for no big reason. Also, “effeminate vibe” is very squishy and subjective. That said, I’m also a musician and I tend to disagree with Jon quite a bit on musical preference stuff in his past episodes.
I personally have not enjoyed much of the music in church for many years now. The men used to be able to join in and connect, but for the last 10-15 years, it’s been quite off putting. I’ve given up on trying to sing anymore. I just stand there with all the other men and wait for it to end.
@@solideomusical Sure. Not only is much of what they call “worship” nowadays difficult to hit the notes, but the lyrics lack the substance and depth. The lyrics are more about “me,” than about Him. Trust me, I focus enough about me, I need to focus on Him. The old hymns are filled with good theology and hold to a high view of God. Today’s “worship” music is mostly about my “experience” with Jesus. No thanks.
Kanye, like many false celebrity converts, never learned humility. He probably thought that becoming a Christian was to become equal to Christ. It's definitely possible to be attracted to the personality of Jesus but wish to enter the fold as a partner in essence and not a humble servant. Kanye obviously thinks that his achievements and celebrity make him a superior person. It's deluded and sad to see.
Big Eva types are upset with anyone who doesn't come to them for instruction and approval. The word "Pharisee" is so overused but they really exemplify it.
… the singing is fine. It’s worship to our God. Neither feminine or masculine to me. It’s the heart that worships, it doesn’t matter if a dude cries like a girl in absolute worship to God, that is still masculine to me.
Probably shouldn't have chosen that song for a gathering of just men, but we sing it often at our church for communion. And we SING it! Men, women, children, all belting out their parts, full throttle on the chorus. It's amazing to hear. It took nearly 10 years of Sunday night voice training to get our people to this point, but here we are- beautiful harmony and a glorious sound. Side note- our Music minister actually changed the words to "Savior of our soul" and I notice he does that often, to make some of the modern songs more theologically accurate.
The assessment of the Jesus Thank You song melody is kind of silly to me. They're singing in the key of F, and the highest note in that melody is Bb, which is completely reasonable even for bass singers to hit easily.
Do I think the song choices were not ideal for a men's conference? Yes! Do I think that has anything to do with promoting femininity? Probably not... Heck, some of the old hymns strain men's voices - that doesn't mean anything to me.
@@allensharp6876 I agree but it takes knowledge about music to drop it down. My volunteer worship leader doesn’t know how but my daughter who has an ear for music and took music performance in school knows how. The volunteer at our church has most songs very high cuz that’s what her voice does. I can’t even sing them.
@@allensharp6876There is “dropping it down” that worship leaders do. The congregation can also sing lower too but I usually need my daughter standing beside me telling me to do that. It’s hard too.
Winger was on point, there is literally nothing wrong with singing “Jesus Thank You”. Insulting a huge swath of men’s masculinity by saying that singing “Jesus Thank You” is feminine is drawing lines where the Bible doesn’t (Pharasaical).
The critique wasn't about the phrase "Jesus thank you" it was about the octave or key that the song was sung in. Octaves are distinctly masculine or feminine.
@@johnathanl8396 I agree with you...To bring up a beautiful song with all these great men singing to God and calling it feminine...is just one of the craziest things I have heard yet and you are right it is very Pharisaical...this is what gives Christianity such a bad name...at no point in the video did I hear anybody straining but only a great bunch of guys singing a beautiful song...and honestly it gave me chills! Can you imagine this pastor being the head of a music department at his church and calling this song and the men singing effeminate...Wow...it's not only the left losing it big time but the right is not far behind...Apparently this man doesn't know that some men can sing 3 and 4 octaves in range...in fact the person that has the record for the largest range Tim Storms has 10 octaves...and he can go lower than any man you put him up against and higher...It makes me so mad when I see people take up something this trivial and unimportant and bring it to the forefront and then label it effeminate...apparently this music director has not heard of an all-man's professional choir where some men sing alto and soprano, and it sounds like angels are singing... Makes me sad to see how small and mean spirited someone can be. Some people are gifted with incredible range don't stifle it enjoy it!
@@JW-tg1nn Original poster was right and here we have a perfect example. You’ve neutered and redefined what a Pharisee was in their historical context and made it anyone that doesn’t agree with you. You’re just the Christian version of the woke labeling everyone nazis.
All due respect, and I certainly don't stand on everything Mike Winger says (for example, he's not persuaded by calvanism and I am), but Winger is worth checking out. He recently did a study on the role of women in the church, nearly 15 videos totaling OVER 43 HOURS of content that was well grounded, well articulated, and very clearly held to biblical convictions about what the bible says about the matter. I bring all that up to say that it's a bit of an over-reach if, by your own admission you don't know the guy, to read context into an x post and assume the guy is offended. Quite the contrary, I would argue his tone here sounds much like his tone in his videos, which is anything but offended. Again, I would even fall on the side of saying effeminate singing is more of an issue than given credit, and would argue against Winger's position here for the points made below his post. Just do a bit of research before assuming someone's tone on an x post.
I was not at all impressed with his teaching on women. He is very soft on the subject. I can't take anyone who teaches complementarianism seriously. You might benefit from reading the book "Masculine Christianity" by Zachary Garris and learn what the Bible really teaches on the subject.
@@j.p.5716I agree that he was soft on his women in ministry series. Although I think he did a great job at refuting egalitarianism. He admitted to being more of a feminist and how he struggled to get through it because he wanted the Bible to be egalitarian, but he couldn’t just get there with scripture. I appreciated his honesty and his thorough refutation of egalitarianism even if he was still too soft on complemenarianism.
@@j.p.5716 You are entitled to that opinion, and I'll be happy to check the book out, but without some specific examples of how you think he messed up the exegesis on a particular verse that critique rings kind of hollow.
Regarding the "effeminate" music segment: The man who took offense to this song didn't say anything about its pitch; he said it was effeminate--which are two different things. I don't think the music sounded feminine or masculine; rather, I think it was just insipid--which is a problem with a lot of this music. Even if the words are okay theologically, they are often undercut by the bland, meandering music. I have been a church pianist since 1970 and have never wondered if the music we were using was masculine or feminine; nor have I ever heard someone say that it was. The original post of the man complaining about the conference and the person leading the music is just silly. I wonder if women sit around wondering if something is feminine enough so they don't get offended. I once read an article that said men were turned off in church by certain arrangements of chairs in study groups and having to sit still and listen to preaching or teaching. My thought was, "What a bunch of big babies! Any excuse to not come to church." It's a cliche, but I'm going to say it anyway: "Grow up and get a life!" As regarding Mike Winger, he is an humble servant of God who gives major time studying subjects and connecting all the dots of scripture when he's ready to discuss a topic or book of the Bible. He doesn't just grab the low-hanging fruit and make his commentary from that. He is also a musician himself and has written and sung some worship songs. Most weeks, he takes 10 to 20 questions people submit about theology and the Bible and answers them with breathtaking (to me) wisdom, carefulness, and clarity. He is really being used by God, and He puts in the work in prayer and Bible study to arrive at his conclusions. Check him out.
Music can be both masculine and feminine simultaneously, think duet... Also, in classical music sonata from, the first theme is almost always masculine, the second theme is nearly always contrasting and feminine, while the development section works out the tension.
So, I have a comment on the song. That song was a perfect example of why we should be using traditional worship music (hymns) instead of KLOVE music. Songs that are written in a man's natural range are either too high or too low for a woman's natural range. I have to sing harmony to most male written and performed songs on KLOVE. Likewise, songs written for a woman's natural range are just too high for most men to sing. The traditional hymns are written for four part harmony, for the most part, and the melody line is usually somewhere in the middle where both men and women can sing without straining, for those congregants who can't read music and harmonize. (BTW, I'm a natural alto, but I can sing all four parts, including the bass line).
Around the 52 minute mark, the video of Duncan shows him saying that mockery is not a Christian principle. A very entertaining sermon would just be quotes of the prophets, Jesus, and the Apostles using mockery as a way to shame their opponents.
Im not a pastor or the son of a pastor, but I'm moved to write sermons in my free time now. I like the idea of explaining Jesus' insults because people don't realize for example when he says to the Pharisees that they are gods, that's a sick burn. And so forth
@@cosmictreason2242 To be fair, I don't think Jesus did call them gods, nevertheless, the text he quotes about God's judgment on the 'gods' speaks of God killing them. Not necessarily a 'god' I'd want to be.
Yeah, i was once attending a Calvary Chapel church and the worship is not balanced for the congregation, but the feminine lyrics and vibes set the tone for the entire service.
There's a dark history with Doug Wilson and the false teaching of the Federal Vision that nearly destroyed the PCA several years ago. Ligon and his Mississippi presbytery were one of the few presbyteries that took a bold stand against Doug Wilson's Federal Vision and N.T. Wright's New Perspective on Paul. Today's noisy social media environment has made it impossible to have any clarity on important doctrinal issues.
I've tried to look into this and couldn't find any clear teaching on that controversy, from either side. Everything I've heard from Doug Wilson has been 2020 or later, and all has been orthodox.
@@michaellautermilch9185the first sweater vest dialogue features James White explicitly asking for Doug's position on all the major aspects of FV which were heretical, and Doug affirming orthodoxy. Nobody has any valid reason to still be accusing Doug of FV today. Op has not done his research, or has ulterior motives
”And He said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.’“ Luke 13:32 (Jesus)
I think using the term 'effeminate' is a problem as it is tinged with so much negativity for men. Some men can sing higher than others, some men should know when to stop singing and some men should stop thinking only hymns are spiritual songs. Matt Papa, Matt Boswell, the Gettys and many others sing higher than me, but i change the key so that when i choose songs for the church, everyone has an opportunity to join in and sing praise comfortably.
That’s the problem with singing melodies in octaves (women on the upper and men on the lower). It’s difficult to find melodies that don’t go too high or too low for someone when it’s all the same part. The 4-part harmonies are conceived to highlight the particular voice ranges: women with higher, lighter sounding voices=soprano; women with lower, huskier voices=alto; men with higher sounding voices=tenor; men who have a lower range and can hit these lower notes with resonance=bass.
Jon, it sounded like the TGC writer was poking fun at “Swifties” that think Taylor is a Christian and are looking to her as a good Christian role model. I took it that way anyway as you read it. 🤷🏻♀️
Okay, perhaps this is a language barrier thing, but when you say "gendered melody", what it communicates to me is that melodies, ie. sequences of notes, have gender to them. To me that's not the same as different vocal ranges (soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, bass). Do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do is a melody. I have never ever heard that it has a gender. Both a bass and a soprano, any voice really, can sing it, just in a different register. But the melody is the same. In vocal arrangements harmonies may be arranged for different voices in a choir. But congregational singing is mostly in unison. Many hymns go higher than the highest note in the clip played from ShepCon. To reach the higher notes you must sing loudly. In order to sing loudly, you must have confidence in your own voice and what you sing. It could be that since the song was rather modern-sounding and not a hymn, the congregation did not feel confident singing it, which made it sound like that. I prefer hymns.
This goes two full steps higher: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-WDyTzv3gwUE.html It's a men's choir (you'll have to excuse me, they're mormons but I couldn't find a better example of a men's choir singing my favorite hymn), so granted it is a more professional performance. But it sounds magnificent and not effeminate at all. So in plain Finnish: maybe the song was just crap and they didn't really want to sing it and that's why it sounded like crap too. Sing hymns.
I don’t think a higher vocal range necessarily equates to an effeminate worship song but you get much more male participation in a lower range song. Our worship pastor is a true tenor so most of our songs are in a higher range. I song on the worship team and he has to re-write parts for me to be able to sing them. Mamby pamby lyrics can definitely make a song effeminate though.
I thought I couldn't have a lower opinion of Ligon Duncan and then this interview comes along. He, himself, is a mocker and a slanderer. He doesn't even realize that it was Jesus who called Herod "that fox." Like Russell Moore, Duncan talks bad about "those people" without ever identifying them. He's a woke weasel.
Even as a woman, I have trouble reaching the high notes and I can sing the upper part of the bass cleff.-does that make me masculine! I am also tired of hearing why men don't want to go to church. Most people who don't want to go to church is that they don't like hearing they need to change-other things are just an excuse.
Word words regarding men and church are foolish and ignorant. You should educate yourself by reading the book " Why Men Hate Going to Church" by David Murrow This book was written 13 years ago and it's gotten 100X worse since then.
Our church is full of men and no one is complaining about the music except for some older people who have difficulty with volume. I am 68 and I have been hearing why men don't go to church all my life. I found it interesting that Shepherd's conference singing was attacked right after MC had come out strongly against Christian Nationalism. Finally, I am sorry that a person I assume is a believer in Christ would assign derogatory terms to another person they do not even know.
Recently watched Justin Peters Ministries video w/Virgil Walker & Darryl Harrison (Episode 133), titled John MacArthur, Christianity Today and MLK: Was Martin Luther King Jr. a Christian? Very well done & researched by Virgil & Darryl & well worth watching…
About the shepherds conference singing - the music isn't female-centric so much as it is tenor-centric! The music minister at an in-law's church is a 1st tenor, and he favors the high range too. Whenever I visit, I (as an alto) can't sing the songs either.
Good worship advice: get a good key for congregational singing. (Of course, old hymn books, if as is typical everyone is singing melody, have MUCH bigger issue with being too high than most contemporary hymns). Silly and non-Biblical non-issue: we need more war songs, commitment songs, self-referential declarations of our personal or corporate militancy to attract men or they’ll just check out and not come to church. So we should focus on law and works, and sing about ourselves or in imperatives to ourselves and others, rather than express praise, delight and supreme joy in God’s grace directly to God in worship? I’d say if you can find the “feeling” or “mood” or whatever in Psalms, you’re on pretty solid Biblical ground. Don’t let modern-day Michals hijack God-centered worship for some sociological agenda.
Thank you for your explanation of big eva. I wasn't confused about it, I just enjoyed how you described it. The singing conversation to me, it's just 🥱 I don't care. But I learned something new about it being so gendered I suppose. Ligan Duncan is practicing exactly what he condemns Doug Wilson of doing. And it's like 5 seconds after condemning Doug. 😂
I really didn’t like how you antagonized Mike Winger, here. I agree that the choice of “Jesus Thank You” at a Men’s Conference wouldn’t work as well due to Mens’ lower register - but Winger isn’t wrong for arguing against describing the whole congregation and tone as “effeminate”. We should all be conscious of how we’re building masculine men in Church and in Worship music, but posting a vid of the guys at shephards conf with the lead singer and practically calling them gay is not the way to do it😂
I think the Sons of Korah reply hits what the original poster was getting at. Denying that men and women, in general, like different music is not helping men in the church. Not only can the men in the video not sing the song, they are not too enthusiastic about singing it.
Alto women exist. I can get up pretty high with my voice and I usually take the soprano when we sing old-fashioned, 4-part hymns.... but I *often* find contemporary praise songs either too high, or too big of a range.
@@JW-tg1nn - I also noted that you posted something about complementarianism being biblical and patriarchy was not. My friend. You have been so deceived. The word (and teaching of) complementarianism did not even exist before about 50 years ago. What is the world do you think was taught before that? I strongly encourage you to read the book "Masculine Christianity" by Zachary Garris. It will open you eyes to the truth. Eric Conn also has some good podcast on complementarianism and Christian Patriarchy. You should look those up also.
Hey, is there anyway you could explore that Room for Nuance Podcast a bit more? I had just watched Rosaria Butterfield and Alisa Childers, who I find extremely biblically minded and wise, and I was greatly edified when I watched them. Specifically Rosaria mentioned not liking the name of the podcast and he clarified what HE meant by that. Thanks
Mike Winger is a pretty solid guy, and a Calvary Chapel guy. He's also a musician, though.I can't speak for his training. I found you starting with him a year or two ago. The algorithm is an interesting thing. Mike Winger > Neil Shenvi > Ad Robles > You.
I agree with your conclusion about the worship- tailor tunes so your congregation can sing them- that shouldn’t be controversial. But I think you misunderstood Mike’s tone. It’s easy online to assume everyone is attacking, but I don’t think that’s how Mike meant that. I’m guessing Mike would agree with your conclusion too, but it’s not like we need to criticize every off-key worship leader.
I listened to another podcast on this interview…and Jesus is actually the one who made the fox comment! I think it was Right Response Ministries. Thank you for all your work. Stay true to the word…be humble. Blessings.
I have a question for Ligon since he claims that "mocking and slander is not a Christian way". What did he mean by "and"? Was that conjunctive or disjunctive? If disjunctive did his "Jesus" ever mock anyone? If so, then what does he mean by "Christian way"? Personally, the "Christian way" is to follow Jesus and my Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible who DID mock others. He insulted others. He resorted to name-calling at times. He never slandered in the sense of telling a falsehood but he was slanderous in the sense of being malicious as defined by willfully intending to cause harm. That said I would not be surprised if he claims to have a Jesus who did none of those things. MANY do.
Regarding the song, "Jesus, Thank You," it was written and recorded by Sovereign Grace Music. The lead singer on the recording happens to be a female (the girl that used to sing for Norton Hall Band). We play this song at Church (I play the piano) and we have our ladies sing the melody lead parts. It is a great song, and the lyrics are God honoring. Sovereign Grace is a great God honoring music group. And, they give away their sheet music for free on their website, which most do not do today. Just thought I would throw that out there.
Lingon Duncan is correct that there are so many discernment ministries and others who do not speak the truth in love. When one gets older one realizes the foolishness of it. If you want an example? James White often goes after other Christians by sometimes strawman them or ridiculing them like in the past debate with Flowers. And I do not like Flowers and I am reformed in my theological views.
The rule for congregational singing should generally be from the middle C and an octave up. If you notice, many contemporary singers have been tenors, and so music leaders, picking these songs up, seem to just use the same range. Sopranos also have a hard time with these ranges. This means that many, women as well, sing an octave lower. You then lose the rich sounding congregational singing with its wonderful blend of men and women. Yes, as long as this problem exist, worship leaders should transpose the music.
I had heard someone already speaking on the Gospel Coalition and the Taylor Swift lyrics and it reminded me of another music artist who made a song and the title of that song was “My Sweet Lord” by George Harrison and at the time was not a Christian and because of my ignorance tried to use it as an example of this artist believing in a god. The fact this writer holds a Taylor Swift song in such reverence allows those of us to see quite clearly the falsehood of that article. Since the Ravi Zacharis scandal it taught me to be more critical of those who acclaim to understand the word of God and hold up their explanation as quite correct and it is akin to walking through a theologically minefield and as with Ravi Zacharis scandal it will blow up in your face and if not biblically grounded it could destroy one’s faith.
“Frilly keyboard”? I’m much more concerned that not one man had the courage to raise his hands in praise to the Lord. If we can’t get men to have courage to do such a simple act of worship -while in church- how can we expect the church at large to have courage to speak up against the tide of evil upon us. 😑
Why does one need to explain or justify Yahweh’s judgments ? The God of the universe does as He pleases and owes no justification to His creatures for what He does. ❤
I'm not much of a fan of MacArthur (his Calvinism, how he treated that woman who had an abusive husband, and seeming arrogance to name a few), but I agree with him about MLK
Brother, I hear this all the time from critics of preachers I like to listen to… I’m not attacking you. I’m offering a suggestion. Men who preach like men, who are bold, who don’t qualify a sermon by reminding you first that “I love you and before I say this I will first take 10 minutes to express how much I love you”… men who preach and HERALD the Good News AND the bad news for the sinner, I often see as labeled as “he sounded arrogant”. My suggestion is rethink first, what preaching is. How sure a man who has been called by God should be about what he is preaching, which means everyone else is wrong and they should come to Scripture, (even if he is wrong it is his conviction of Scripture and SHOULD be preached that way, like I think he is about dispensationalism) and rethink manhood. Because as men, we should be this way with each other too. I rarely rarely ever think of anyone as arrogant. I say this coming from a journey of, when I first heard the Gospel preached and started listening to conservatives. I thought they were all arrogant.
Jon did a couple of podcasts on that case of the divorce situation that Julie Roys tried to use to clobber John MacArthur. I would recommend you check them out.
As far a Kanye, he seems more typical of many professions in this generation. Though I've been through grievous soul searching (Scripture Study ) on my own Salvation, I can recall that it wasn't until I was confronted with the Judgment of GOD that there was any desire to Trust JESUS CHRIST for Eternal Salvation. Perhaps Kanye received a mere 'This Life Now' ( earthly happiness, prosperity, or earthly 'purpose' like MLK , Wokeness, make this 'world' which is passing away the end all of Christian Virtue ) I pray for Kanye, along with other celebrities, many who are getting older, ie Herb Albert, Robert Colbert, James Darren, Frankie Avalon, Liza Minnelli, Jery Mathers, Rick Wakeman, Mel Gibson, Gary Sinese, Clint Eastwood, Sabastian Gorka, Dick Morris, Greta Van sustran, Mark Levin, Micheal Savage, Dennis Prager, James Clapper, Tina Cole, Kathy Garver, Johnny Witaker, JJ Walker, Helen Reddy, Anthony Hopkins , Ann Murray, Roy Thinnes, Monte Markham... Donald, Melania and Barron Trump
“The most serious cardinal sin as an evangelical you could ever do is to make some statement that is critical of Billy Graham. I know because I’ve done it. ‘How dare you criticize Billy Graham’. I say because I think Billy Graham is wrong on that point and because of the enormous trustworthiness he has in the evangelical world can do a world of damage when he talks like that. And he says it in the public domain then we enter into debate in the public domain.” Spoken by RC Sproul in a conference from 2000. He names names and is willing to call out even his friend for uttering dangerous teaching. You aren’t going to find that in the evangelical world of today. Especially not The Gospel Coalition.
The problem with modern hymns and songs is that they are guitar driven. The songs were composed by guitarists on guitars. That is explains the melodic lines and also why they are so repetitious.
You're exactly right John. Younkin is not conservative nor is the majority of Republicans. Trump is in the same category. People that call themselves Christian yet vote for Youngkin, Trump, etc are voting as pagan pragmatist not principled Christians.
So Jon, it sounds to me like Mike Winger was defending the men singing "Jesus Thank You" and saying that people can go too far in delineating masculinity and femininity. Just saying. Although, I haven't read his whole comment.....
Great thoughts Jon! As much as Ligon deeply bothers me, he had an excellent point about some immature mockers on our side almost certainly not being regenerate. I wish you would have engaged with that point instead of brushing it off.
In my opinion, guys like Doctrinal Watchdog or JD Hall are so dishonest, graceless, brash & hateful that it's difficult to imagine the Spirit of Christ within them. Other guys like AD Robles (which I love in a lot of ways) at the very least sometimes excessively mocks & slanders other brothers. Believe me, I'm on you and AD's team every day of the week. The vast majority of what Ligon said was ridiculous, yet I think he had a point there about how our side could act in a matter more befitting of Christ.@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast
@JesseStevenPollom I've noticed that too, and I don't think I've seen many verses saying mocking is good either and just because Jesus did something does not give me the ability either he is also 100% God and can be the one to cast the stone
I hear you. There are definitely multiple biblical examples of godly mockery (Pastor Douglas Wilson has outlined this several times), but we certainly don't want the predominate aroma of our ministry to be one of mockery. 2 Cor 2:15 shows we ought to show the aroma of Christ!@@MisertheWizer
@@JesseStevenPollom I don't agree about AD. I don't think he slanders and I don't have a problem with him going falsetto to mock the effeminancy of woke evangelicalism because I think it is a deeply disordered movement.
Are you gonna take guests... loved the topics you dealt with but I would love to see you get some pushback in real- time. Have Ligon or a few of the other people on your show
Ligon Duncan and Russell Moore and David Platt and people like that do not go on podcasts of intelligent people who have the capacity to show them up. It's just a fact.
LOL! ARE YOU SMART ENOUGH TO COME ON PODCAST ORE ARE TALKING FOR SOMONE ELSE ... ERSKIN MUSIC SHOW LOOK IT UP IF YOU WANT THAT SMOKE @@conceptualclarity
Well... sometimes its good to have community discussions I don't just platform celebrities I platform ideas so if you have something you want to bring the invitation is open@@conceptualclarity
Regarding the singing, I couldn’t understand what the words to the song were. It sounded like an emotional Disney song at the end of one of their kids movies.
Look up “Jesus Thank You”. If that song is too “emotional Disney” for you, then I guess you’d be ok with getting rid of “When I behold the Wondrous Cross” and “It is Well with My Soul”.
@@johnathanl8396 It’s not the words or emotions. It’s the uniformity of the modern sound. My 85 year old father in law who spent a career on the mission field says that to him much of the music today sounds whiny. Even some of the old hymns we sing have been tweaked to add minor notes that make the song sound depressing.
@@marshallalbritton9521 It's because modern hymns are guitar driven. They are composed on guitars by guitar players. That is why the melodic lines are so weak and repetitious.
I watched because of "Effeminate Singing" which sounded funny. The segment also seemed funny to me, lol, though your points were valid imo. Then Kanye.. my first reaction was to say he's not a Christian. The more I see these recent clips of him, though, I think to myself that he is either extremely mentally ill or on drugs (which can make one say crazy things, depending on the drug/person) or BOTH. How would that apply to this? Is this truly the sower parable of the sun beating down? Maybe. Seems like it. But he has always sounded pretty crazy, like severely mentally messed up imo. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm not forming a solid opinion about him, though it really doesn't look good at all.
I’m not sure exactly what Frank is getting at by saying that the judgement commands aren’t literal, but as a postmillennial and partial preterist myself, I take some of the passages against Babylon in Isaiah (for example), as not as 100% literal. God uses cosmic judgment language often as a hyperbole, and when He says the sun will be darkened and the stars will fall from heaven doesn’t mean that the massive stars are going to fall to earth to judge Babylon but it’s more meant to signify that their universe will be turned upside down when God destroys their city.
I don't think the Jews in Israel 2,000 years ago wanted Jesus to "act like John" because Jesus did preach very harsh words like John. John preached to Jews and also spoke out against Herod. Jesus made it clear that His ministry was toward the Jews first. But the Jesus who called Pharisees a "brood of vipers" and cleansed the Temple with a whip was a very harsh preacher to a very specific audience in His day. So no one would have wanted Jesus to "act like John" because in a comparative or stylistic way, He did. Ligon Duncan is sounding like one of those Christians that thinks Jesus was that effeminate version in renaissance paintings.
Everything Kanye was saying was based on a wordly understanding of God, and not the spiritual. And it isn't like the Bible addresses exactly what he said was wrong. Fear of the Lord, understanding that God cares more for the heart of a man and will use the circumstances surrounding him to as a fire to refine a man's heart. It's a shame he didn't get that deep enough, and it probably stems from being propped up as someone who had already arrived, perfect, when we know that salvation is only the beginning of the journey. Sounds exactly like the seeds thrown among the rocks. Pray for him indeed.
Turek's take on the literal Genesis account would make a new translation of the Bible necessary. He describes the Bible as "inspired", but not inerrant. He gives more weight to " science" than he does scripture. I refers back to the resurrection iof Christ. Was that literal, or just figurative. Scientific concensus would say that is not possible.😮😮
What Duncan said about fake Christians larping on social media is so vague that he is sort of correct. You can see my point in people like Kanye, he may be faithful to God but his lifestyle and music is on the verge of degeneracy. If he rejected God, it makes you question if he is a Christian that lost his way or if he was making it up to sell albums. You could also point to a section of the "trad" anti-feminist crowd who think that a man cheating on every woman he meets with is normal and healthy. I personally think a lot of "trad" social media celebrities are just grifters in it for money and fame. Though Duncan probably was referring to channels like this one as the larpers. (Is it weird that Kanye has a sweatshirt that says "Black Dogs" in Russian?)
