I ordered the Duo with the original price. A few weeks later I got an email that they would like to offer me a partial refund for the 2 burr set model that I had ordered. I think this says a lot about the company! Looking forward to having it delivered! ^^
What nobody is saying about the Duo: the interior of the Duo is incredibly easy to keep clean (of stale coffee bits and rancid coffee oils) because the burrs come out in about two seconds with an Allen wrench. I think of mine as the 'Niche Uno, EZ-clean Five Million'.
Bingo. NO machine is that easy to maintenance and clean. THAT matters. Niche has a stellar track record and great customer service. They're not into trends and influencer bullshit.
That's also one of the main reasons I'm looking for: easy cleaning of the machine because I'm lazy. (My perfect mill would be dish washer safe, but that will not happen in 100 years. 😀)
cant wait for the comparison of the df83 and the 078s. I backed the 78s because the kickstarter price for 510 euros all included was just a bargain. the df83 would be 700 euros, same for the niche zero duo. I feel like the 78s has the best of both worlds. Flexible for espresso and filter without needing to change burrs while having probably the best workflow from what i have seen in videos and reviews. Switching burrs like with the niche duo seems like such a hassle. At the moment i am only drinking espressos but I am keen in trying filter. I can not imagine switching burrs everytime I wanna do a filter or buying another machine specifically for filter is a little over the line for me lol. Loved the video btw
Exactly the same thoughts and the same purchase decision here. I‘m really looking forward to my 78s as a dual purpose grinder and my gateway to Espresso brewing. The price is just unbeatable and I really dig the design as well.
I know this is a Niche review but just wanted to say your Pink Lemonade was the first espresso on the DF83 that I really enjoyed and my favorite light roast espresso. Keep up the good work Kyle!
This definitely makes the choice between a df83 v2 and a niche duo more difficult. I was hoping the duo would blow it out of the water! The ionizer makes the 83 so much more attractive to me, and rocking the duo seems a bit like a hassle. At the same time if Niche ends up selling the burr carriers separately, that itself would be amazing.
The rocking is the same as the zero. If you’ve used that grinder you’ll be familiar with its workflow. Some never did this but I’m fussy about retention.
@@cnbjornsen They also removed the 20% additional surcharges… however without VAT it’s almost as expensive as a DF83 v2 and Sculpture 078 with VAT so it’s still about 25% higher in price. While it might be worth a little more over the DF83, It probably isn’t compared too the Sculpture 078(s)
I greatly appreciate that you make the effort to actually speak to the creators behind the products that you review, I think it leads to insight rather than hot takes.
I've got 2 DF83s v2s, one with each of the SSP HU and MP burrs. After a couple basic mods (mostly just the chute and declumper), I get basically zero retention and excellent cups for both espresso and filter. I really like the massive motor and the all-metal construction, so the choice was a no-brainer for me over the Niche. And I didn't consider the Sculptor because I wanted SSP burrs.
Even with the price drop, i still feel good about my Sculptor 78S although i can't say for sure until i get my hands on it. Looking forward the that big comparison video! Tamp Squad!
Well, I'm honestly surprised you weren't one of the earlier reviews haha. Glad to see you're not completely buried under September right now and still getting your hands on neat new stuff! Finally decided to go for a Niche Zero after all these years lol
Kyle, when you compare the grinders, please talk about off factory alignment! Also It would be great if you could make a kind of tutorial on how to align the burrs on the sculptors! I think you would get many views, especially when people start getting them!
I've seen tons of grinders, imo, it's one of the best looking grinder. I'm saving my money to buy one. Shipping to Vancouver might cost me a lot of money but I want one.
TAMP SQUAD! Always here to watch every minute of the hard work you put into these videos. Great work Kyle. I am still a HUGE fan of my Niche Zero, and your comments here about the DUO are certainly appreciated.
Thanks Kyle! It would be really cool if Niche sold just the burr holder. Then you could get just one of the burr sets (espresso or filter), a holder, and some SSP burrs. You could then easily switch between any burrs you like without having to calibrate every time. Also, Tamp Squad!
On the lack of knocker, it seems like an aesthetic/continuity choice consistent with the Zero. That said, Introvertmakes has some fantastic silicone bellows for the zero that also fit the duo
Ordered the Duo last week. NO ONE makes a dedicated filter bur grinder but Niche. So for me, it's absolutely worth it. Innovation... really? It works just as well today as in 2019, no need to make anything that looks like its for sterilizing dental tools with. I love the look and am glad they kept it. Trends are for fools.
Thanks Kyle for buying it and making this film. Honest opinion is that it is not the gold standard. Good to know. But then, is there a gold standard at all today? Lol!
Thanks for the awesome video as always Kyle! I would be really interested in a comparison how the 078s fairs against the Duo for espresso and filter double-duty, as the 078s has potential for both without swapping burrs.
Coffee world is insane with the constant latest/greatest coming out every other day. Espresso is delicious today as it was 40 years ago. But hear I am watching all these videos lol. I guess all the reviewers need constant content and I need something to watch.
Thanks for the video! As you did some comparison against the df83 already, would you mind giving some words of the comparison between the ND and the Sculptor 078s?
Just very curious ;) not because it will influence my decision, i opted for the 078s, but just to hear your thoughts as the df83, ND and 078s seem to become the go to grinders for the forseable future (
@@coenwouters6808 No one can answer that. We don’t know what might come, let’s not forget there dozen of brands yet to react on the home market, both among major electronics companies as well as traditional grinder manufacturers. I think there is a good chance Mazzer eventually will launch something especially as they went into hand grinders recently. Eureka, Mahlkonig and Fiorenzato are already starting to move on the market and Ceado & Compak have already released up market SD grinders. We still have macap and Anfim yet to move on it and Baratza can’t possibly afford letting this pass by much longer. My point is we are going to see lots more grinders in next few years… also more affordable ones.
@@mikni4069 you are correct, hence my remark about forceable future. With the hype around these 3 grinders and the amount of units ordered via kickstarter (for the sculptor that is) a lot of people will be satisfied for a while. But this will also spread the grinderupgraditus amongst more people. Knowing myself I probably switch grinders from time to time to keep things interesting. I just hope that there will be a grinder I will keep as "benchmark".
@@coenwouters6808 There plenty good benchmarks already, unfortunately and as one would expect these are just expensive; like Kafatek, Titus, Option-O , Weber and Zerno will probably be the next one in line, as I doubt they stop with the Z1. None of those are the use and throw away or something you get tired off because these don’t have the flaws and annoyance of the cheaper grinder, in fact these are far more enjoyable to use. I hope it’s true that Zerno has an 80mm on drawing board, because that would be my dream grinder that would make all my dreams come true… I already had an 98mm beast and it’s frankly too much of a good thing. EG-1 is fantastic but price and size of it kinda puts me off.
I’m kinda excited for this grinder. I’ve been using a Zero exclusively for grinding needs and I like the idea of having a similar looking grinder. I also like the idea of having 2 burrs that are easy enough to switch out. For me, not being a professional, having a grinder set that can give me cone and flat burr options for filter and espresso. The cons that are mentioned are one of the reason that I’m rarely an early adopter on these grinders in case Niche makes a change for future models.
Thanks for watching! The duo is very much the flat burr niche we all were hoping for. Every grinder has cons. These are very similar to the cons we shared with the zero. That doesn’t change that it’s a great grinder.
@@KyleRowsell For sure. Whenever I have the $750+ in the budget for new coffee gear it will be a tough decision between a Duo or a DF grinder. Always love your videos and your insights.
I started my coffee journey with the Niche Zero and a Decent Espresso machine. At the time (1 1/2 years ago) the "Niche Killer" grinders were just getting introduced to the market. Buckman's videos and endorsement kind of sealed my choice. Since Jan I've been thinking of getting a flat burr grinder. I was leaning towards the DF83 but didn't pull the trigger because I wanted to wait for more SSP options (i.e. really the 83mm Lab Sweet clone) and that purchase would be an increment over the DF83 base price. After watching the "Wired Gourmet" youtube review I felt comfortable enough with the decision to go with Niche. I'm still working on my tasting skills and in addition to the Niche Zero, I have a 1Zpresso JX-Pro. I suspect that the Duo Espresso burrs will be similar to the 1Zpresso or maybe even offer more clarity and separation. I also expect that I will be about 90% expresso and 10% filter and am planning at some point to experiment with other burrs in the grinder.
The conical shaped hopper isn't steep enough to let very juicy / sticky beans fall into the grinder - beans get stuck and you have to tickle them in . This was an issue with the Zero so i'm pissed off they haven't addressed this issue. The splash of water with beans solves static .
This has convinced me to get a duo and SSP to replace my Niche. It answered all of the questions I had. Looking forward to the next comparison. Thank you, Kyle.
Tampsquad I kind of agree though that grinders have gotten to the point even the Niche Zero can't keep that "gold standard" anymore. Both of them are both still grinders with wonderful workflow and if you like the workflow and want it, the Niche family is a great option.
Honestly, I still have eyes set on the Zero. But the sculptor is on my radar too. I am still using a hand grinder to pull eight shots a day for my wife and me. It is getting a bit cumbersome. It isn't difficult but sometimes I just don't want to. As an aside, I'd love to see a video on partner friendly grinders. (Partner friendly espresso equipment in general.) My wife has no desire to single dose, use a bellows, RDT and all that jazz. Volumetric dosing would be her jam. I suppose something like the Sette 270 or Eureka Mingon would be the best compromise. Then again, I'd be hopper dosing at that point, which is fine because we normally use the same coffee for the week. Anyway, as always, I enjoyed the content so thank you for bringing it to us.
I'm single origin only these days so I've been eyeing this as an upgrade from my Niche Zero. I find it amusing the takes on price considering the cost of something like the P64 or the Weber, Mahlkonig, Levercraft, Titus etc. I likely would have bought a P64 a year ago if they were available without a forever preorder. Now I look at the Niche and think with the right burrs this should be good enough. But I'll check out the comparison video first.
Which coffee grinder would you recommend for someone just getting into coffee and espresso at home? I'm moving to a new place and will look to be buying a coffee setup! At the moment I am thinking of getting the Breville Bambino but I'm so confused with which grinder to use.
Great production value and charming presentation as always. Also slightly confusing, if I'm honest. While I don't understand how people who have problems with bellows are okay with flicking/dropping/tapping the plastic lid on the Niche, but people probably just prefer different tactile feedbacks, so be it; but in the brief comparison between the Duo and the DF83, Kyle mentions their prices as similar, while the Duo is the better fit if you switch between filter and espresso, and there in lies the problem for me: the Duo requires two sets of burrs to perform well in both situations. With two sets of burrs it is $800 to the DF83's $699, so not exactly similar. I also can't fathom how anyone who switches between filter and espresso daily can use the Duo as the only grinder, even though it "only takes a minute" to swap the burrs.
Hey, thanks for watching. It really depends on your preferred brew method. If you like bodied and darker roasts, I believe the espresso burrs can be a one and done option. But for others it becomes more difficult.
@@KyleRowsell Thanks for the reply. Judging from the other reviews I was under the impression that filer on the espresso burrs wasn't worth trying, thanks for the info on darker roast filters. Can't wait for the 078s and DF83 comparison!
Key Kyle, thanks for the review. If not the Niche Duo, what one grinder would you recommend for home use for both filter (moccamaster, v60) and espresso?
Thanks for the video. Could you elaborate a bit on your stance that 83mm are the future compared to 64mm when talking about home use? Do you see a difference enough in the cup to justify the price difference between the SSP variations?
Yeah would love to. Saying they’re the future isn’t disqualifying the current quality of 64mm. I’m simply stating the excitement and adaptation of the newer burr size including aftermarket options etc. For me the cup results are there but I have yet to taste the new aftermarket burrs. That will be done in a follow up video.
I just received my Niche Duo, and it's performed well so far. I wonder if you have a recommended grind setting for a drip machine. I've been trying different settings, between 20 - 25. That was just a ballpark guess because there isn't any information online, or anything in the manual, about grind settings.
Thanks on a thorough review on the Duo. I’ve been debating on the Duo for a while…still not sure but if I were to get it, it would be with the espresso burr. (And the Zero would become my filter grinder.)
I feel that the geometry of 83mm(the center hole is quite large) isn't offering that much longer paths for cutting each bean. Yes, it sure can offer faster speed(under the same wattage) due to the larger total cutting area when compared to much smaller burrs. Whereas something like 80mm or 78mm especially if with lesser screw-hole (or even blind) will offer better grind quality and overall efficiency. The larger burrs cost more, putting more stress on the motor/gearbox, and bearings(alignment). The same degree of error/weaknesses on smaller burrs will get magnified.
If you take a look at the 78mm burrs from Timemore. They have a much longer cutting path and only two screw holes, it prob offers more actual cutting area than 83mm. The screws only occupy a small portion of the pre-breakers on 78mm, whereas the screws on 83mm are a significant part of the pre-breakers and the secondary teeth.
Another great video Kyle, thanks. I'm at the point where I want to get my first electric grinder for espresso (currently using a Comandante C40), and at the moment it seems likes a choice between the DF83 and the Duo. I'm very much looking forward to your comparison video. Any idea when we'll get that? Thanks again.
I have DF83, with Duo price drop, it is a no brainer. DF83 has quite a few design flaws. I will continue to use DF83 until next year. I hope Niche will sell only burr carrier so I can put and swap burrs. This swapping feature is perfect for me.
I was hoping for a time setting. I don’t want to turn it on and then off again. That’s a huge benefit of my Sette that I’ve grown to love. I’ve never used the niche so I could be wrong.
Thank you you say that there are better grinders than the Niche Duo on the market; can you give some examples, or at least say which ones you have in mind?
Great review man. I think a lot of people will appreciate this and hopefully lead to a more informed purchase! Shame it's been released a bit too late but still looks great. Thanks for the video! #tampsquad
After much agonising I eventually pulled out from the kickstarter for the Timemore 078s at the last minute and opted for the Niche duo (at the original price). To their credit Niche kindly alerted me once the price dropped and let me take advantage of the single burr espresso option.
@@KyleRowsell good to know! Part of my thinking was that 83mm has replacement options where 78mm you don’t (yet). But overall it also reflected that I still think the niche design has an enduring appeal beyond its functional performance
It's a better machine. It's likely be more reliable, easier to maintain and MUCH MUCH easier to clean on a weekly basis. I also almost went for the influencer hype of the Timemore. I got the single filter burr.
I actually think the Duo is a really cool product. Filter burrs for brew or perhaps turbo shots. Espresso burrs for milk drinks. If you want one grinder body to try out multiple burrs - then this could be a good option. The Timemore Sculptor 78 has its advantages but sems much less flexible?
Haha now all of the crazy fomo people with 64mm grinders will rush towards 83mm as it seems to be newest trend and „gold standard“. (Plz not. Enjoy your coffee without fomo) Nice review BTW. Seems pretty spot on!
I would be curious to know what the total was with taxes to Canada as i am cross-shopping the Duo and a DF83 ($983 + taxes is the best price i found so far for the DF83 her ein Canada)
Now with new price drop and option to buy single burrs. I am really struggling to choose this new niche duo with espresso burr and p64. According to James H the p64 are better than zero. Now really want to know will the duo getting closer to p64. Still p64 are more expensive than duo. My espresso I just ordered the La M mini, it was not an hard decision when I was about to buy r58 or La m mini. But stacked with grinder choice now.
Does anyone here know, whether these plastic burr inserts fit other 83 mm flat grinders, say mazzer major? There are annoying empty spaces between the burrs and carriers that catch a lot of coffee that needs cleaning now and then. Duo solution looks great for me in two ways - less retention and longer service intervals.
Could it be that the less power is compensated with gearing’s? Low power motor with high rpms could easy translate in much force with lower rpms with gearing.
Niche ZERO was the original IndiGoGo grinder that paved the way for all these Single dose low retention home grinders out there, without the Niche Zero we wouldn't have the DF64 and all their spinoffs, actually the Option-O P64 was first, then DF64, but for most people the P64 was too high of an investment and possibly a risk since there also wasn't such a big RU-vid and social media coffee community back then I don't think! I was thinking they were over-priced initially vs the competition with the DF83 v2 out, and at the same time the Timemore kickstarter was going where you paid NO TAX / Shipping! Which is huge for Canadians (and they have technically larger burrs in the 078 models for less $$$) So dropping the price and allowing a cheaper single burrs options is a great and smart move for them. I wish they would also include an EMPTY extra burr carrier for those who want to try another SSP burr or something else, and take advantage of the quick swap options but they don't seem to want to do that. If Niche Came out with an 83mm flat burr grinder like a year ago it would have been HUGE! I'm guessing us Canadians will still have to pay the import fee's and duties, but overall the price reduction is a big win except for those who purchased it earlier, some people were pissed they paid more for pre-ordering the same thing! Apparently they're refunding people back the price difference, so make sure to ask them / complain! :D
Mine comes in July. And niche is awesome. They discounted prices and sent me an email and refunded me the difference between what I paid and new price. What a company ❤.
Only after a deluge of negative publicity and customer complaints, though. I think it's more damage control than proactive customer-friendly behavior - they saw the market had changed and they were no longer competitive, and that their shady pricing scheme had alienated potential buyers.
In my opinion the Duo loses a little bit of the main reason buying a Niche. Beeing one of the best grinders in workflow and a do it all grinder I think the choice of switching burrs for filter and espresso is just a lack of innovation. It completely destroys the workflow if you want to switch up your brewing methods. With the Zero its just adjusting the grind and thanks to the zero retention you can easily switch between methods and beans. I was hoping to see some innovation here like baratza did with the encore esp and not just two sets of burrs you have to switch out.
I think they are a little late, But I don’t think its irrelevant right now. But with SSP putting out cast, MP, and HU, for 83mm I think it’s a good platform to invest in. They could take the cake by making it available to 80mm. It’s not much different in size to 83mm.
Would have loved them to come out with this a minute ago. Went another direction because the Zero was conical burr, flat burrs are my preference. Such is the game…
You said SSPMP, but then showed HU burrs. Were you talking about the 64mm MPs or the 83mm HUs, or did you show 83mm HUs but have been testing 83mm MPs (which were recently released... or I heard about... maybe SSP told you you can't show them and comments still apply? Thanks for clarification. I have HUs and am curious about MPs and weren't sure which you were referring to.
@@KyleRowsell thanks for the clarifying reply! The more folks like you talk about these burrs, the more I realize I'd try them and think, "Ah MAN!" and I'm best sticking with my HUs!
On power, have you ever tried to run 20 gms of green beans through and seeing if the grinder you are testing will grind or stall (from a standing start!)
Great video! In the comparison video, can you also compare the Duo to some of the higher end grinders like p64 or p100? It would be helpful for those of us who are willing to spend the money to get the best coffee, but don't want to waste money (as in if it's an unnoticable difference then I might as well get the Duo/78s over the P100). Thanks!
Definitely more excited about the DF64V than the Duo. Niche screwed their customers for too long, forcing everyone to pay the UK tax just because they wanted more money/didn't want to do two different prices. They outlasted their own popularity and are late to the flat burr game, there's just too many other good options now.
Niche just announced they are no longer doing that. Also in flight orders seem to be getting some money back. Still a lot of steamed people out there. PR damage done will they be able to recover, I don’t know 🤷🏻♂️
Hey guys, I ordered the duo and am having second thoughts. I have a question that people seem to be avoiding to answer. Putting aside work flow, aesthetics, and price, I really want to know the best flat bur grinder. I simply want to know what makes the best balanced espresso. I’m considering either the niche duo or the Lagom P64 (that’s my price max). Perhaps there’s others in the run for that price range, but I’d love input. Any help is much appreciated!
Great video! Lot's of info Coffee noob here, hello, question. If you swap out Burrs, what separates grinders from each other if you can swap out burrs? is it the RPM, is it anti-static tech.... Any feedback is appreciated.
Great question! I’m assuming you’re asking this as if you had two grinders with the same burrs? First off not all grinders can share the same burrs. Assuming you had two grinders that could than build tolerances, alignment, speed, vibrations, and other build elements play a factor into the final cup. Workflow is your interaction with the grinder, which is equally important.
Yeah you do wander why they came out this late… Some of us asked them to do this years ago but now the design look bit dated, not just in terms of usage but also purely aesthetically. I just think they kinda missed the mark instead of innovation bringing something future proof they brought something that doesn’t bring anything new. Although I’m sure there things still to like, it just seem a misses opportunity for a fresh new design of out time, the lack of knocker or ioniser is a clear example, not being able to improve the lid and adjust finer while running the grinder just seem odd. I’m sure it will be popular enough due to brand love, but I think Timemore really have taken much of the steam, it’s not a flawless product either but they did move it onwards, while this seem to be a bit backward looking.
When tasting the filter coffee, you said "One of these is the Duo. One of them is the Zero." But I don't think you mentioned whether you used the filter burr or espresso burr in the Duo. I think that detail matters, because as easy as it is to switch the burr sets, I think folks will likely want to leave the espresso burrs in and run both programs (or even only order the espresso burrs).
@@jeffmattel7867 even now as you say that, it isn’t obvious to me. Are you suggesting that he switched to the filter burr set when doing the filter comparison between Duo and Zero? An explicit answer would be great. As a potential buyer I would want to know whether I can expect a better filter cup with the espresso burrs on the Duo than on the Zero, because if I can only have one grinder, I want to know if I can run both programs without switching burr sets.
I've seen people TRY and destroy the lid on the Niche and fail, I never was bothered by it. I always thought grinder wattage was mostly a marketing tactic, It's crazy how an Eureka Atom is like 800w! Does it really NEED to use that much power to grind coffee? It is super quiet and fast though :D The DF83 I think uses a 450w Motor and I just saw SSP post on their Instagram that they didn't recommend using their Cast burrs for light roasted espresso on the DF83 because it could stall, not having enough power. He also had similar cautions for putting those burrs in a Niche Duo, although I have seen people grind raw / green coffee on the Niche Duo! (maybe not at espresso size?). I think the gearing engineering on the Niche works some magic. So when you talk about the SSP MP Burrs are you talking about the 64mm? Curious how the 83mm version compares with the 64mm SSP MP. 16:00 that would be pretty embarrassing if it turned out the higher clarity one you preferred was actually from the Zero :D Filter on the Niche everyone always says is not so great, so eeaaaasy win especially with your fancy coffees :D
@@cuprajake1 Wow, nice espresso setting too! How'd you know it would work and wouldn't start smoking? :D I'm curious how the DF83 would do with that test, but don't wanna risk it, despite it's supposed 450w power! It does seem powerful though.
Very different grinders at different prices. I think the duo is better value. The zerno is very high quality but I’ll talk about that in the near future
Is retention requiring RDt more a localised problem than world wide? Having had a Zero since they were launched, and being a beta tester of the Duo since October 2022 I can safely say that I have never experienced static problems
@@KyleRowsell If it was environmental, then why not say so as opposed to informing those who watch you, that RDT is needed which in my experience, it certainly is not
@@dfk41 because I’m confident in my statement as the niche zero beside it didn’t need RDT in the same environment. Maybe you’re using a different style of coffee? But I stay consistent with my testing. With respect, if you had a unit from the fall what me think that you’re statement isn’t bias?
@@KyleRowsell My brief, for clarity, was simply to use the grinder in a home environment, as a consumer would, but as much as possible. I am not an influencer, I have no audience to address. I used many different coffees over a 7 month period. Yes, it was winter time so it was cooler but also the central heating was more likely to be on. I am not showing any bias as who would listen. I am merely stating, that in the time I have spent with the Duo, on all of the different coffees I have tried, I have not needed to use RDT. It is true, that some coffees behave differently in the grinds cup, but none have been problematical
First of all you cannot just look at the numbers on the motor. The one unit that determine the crushing of beans is the torque. Though it's not written. But with a gearbox/tranmission, it reduces the speed but it increases the torque proportionally with the speed it reduces. This is the difference reducing the speed mechanically compare to electronically. Electronically, when u reduce the speed, u reduce the torque. In ODE and Sculptor, there is no tranmission/gearbox. Which is why when u reduce the speed, u'll have stalling problem.
@@KyleRowsell Well, for the same beans, with transmission to increase torque means it reduces the effort of the motor to overcome the resistance of the beans. Thus, drawing much lesser current. Less heat on the motor. Should be better compare to a 150w with no gearbox.
The aesthetics of the Duo are off. The shape of the original fits the size, whereas the Duo is basically a chonky XL-sized Zero. They should have developed a new shape for the Duo.
