A note from a Japanese person here: when Chihiro "nods" to No Face for the bath tokens, she’s actually just bowing to be polite. So she isn’t even asking him to do her a favor.
@Miro Kai While that's true, in the instance of "a head or body gesture made to indicate politeness" a nod functions the same as a bow and is often just a term used to indicate bowing your head briefly. So while the nuance is cool, I don't really think CJ was that wrong for saying nod, it *is* a casual word for bowing your head in English. In fact, in this context the Japanese would view the bow with exactly the same basic expectation as an English speaker would view a polite nod. If anything, calling it a nod highlights the casual politeness of the interaction for an audience that doesn't understand the Japanese context.
I think it is...also the Great Gatsby kind of is too. If you think about it. Buying a mansion and throwing giant ass parties across the river to impress your crush...that's using capitalism to simp 101.
I don't think capitalism is an advanced enough system to look for things like "meaning". Maybe the people who subscribe to that mindset, but not the abstract system in itself.
tbh i think the fact that chihiro and no-face aren't friends makes the way she behaves toward him even more significant, from a storytelling and character-building standpoint. throughout the movie, chihiro never really comes to like or even dislike no-face in any particular way, yet she still treats him with a basic level of respect, not out of any affection for him, but because on some level she understands that everyone deserves to be treated with dignity. no one else at the bathhouse even acknowledges no-face unless they think they can gain something from him, but chihiro is polite to him even when there's no obvious benefit to herself (a common feature of folktale protagonists, whose kindness is offered without an expectation of reciprocation and is only repaid later in the narrative.) even when no-face goes on a rampage through the bathhouse, chihiro isn't just trying to get away from him-- she's trying to lead him outside, because she recognizes that the greed inherent in the running of the bathhouse is causing him harm. she doesn't do this because she likes him, but because helping another being who's in pain is the right thing to do, and that says more about her character than if she was helping him because they were friends.
It's also a great step in Chihiro's character development. Throughout the movie, she becomes more assertive, selfless, and mature in general. This is especially apparent in how she treats him and the courageous lengths she goes to to rescue Kohaku.
I've rarely been this validated with regards to treating living organisms w basic respect and dignity. prriod. especially in conflict. thank you. seriously, this makes me feel less alone.
It speaks volumes that her young, gendered, hàted self is the one responsible for politely handling the existentially threatening incel, without question. She is there to be hated and useful.
The fact that we misconstrue Chihiro's kindness and fearful, formal tolerance of No Face as friendship in the first place tells us a lot about the expectations we hold for women in relationships (platonic or otherwise). I find it interesting that even within a context where this point is (possibly) being made, we're still like "omg!! They became best friends :))"
I think the reason I assumed that they were pals is because I still can’t help but be pretty kind to people who have been really not chill towards me, and dudes assume I like them because I can’t help but be encouraging to others. Even when they take it the wrong way and are rude, I am still kind to them. I am willing to be sort of “friends” with anyone as long as they are not going to hurt me atm. I can’t believe I have never realized these things about the movie when I’ve seen it so many times and relate to that topic so much! I also relate to noface tho, because I have idealized people for showing me kindness as I grew up and have now learned not to do that!
At first when I watched the movie I also almost saw Haku and Noface as the sort of angel and devil on your shoulders. Like... Haku was there telling her to be brave and pay attention to her goals, while noface was like “HERE just indulge here with me and don’t solve any of your problems!” At first he tried to do it in an innocent and cute looking way, and then he revealed himself as kind of a selfish monster with never ending desires.
@@pneuma6202 You are right with the Zeniba scene, she refers to them as Chihiro's friends. However, it's actually just Buo (baby) as a hamster and the little bird she calls her friends, I assume you mean in the scene where noface turned greedy in the bath house, and Sen was called to help. The working partner lady (I forgot her name:() asks who the two animals on her shoulder are, it's those two she calls her friends. Unless I am mistaken and you meant another scene! :)
Interesting thing to note: When Chihiro asks Noface what he wants, he doesn’t respond “you,” he responds with “Sen.” To me, this indicates that Noface’s internal model of who Chihiro is has grown far beyond who she actually is and left him struggling to fully recognize her in person.
Hm, that might actually be wrong though. In japanese saying someone's name directly doesn't have the same connotation as far as I'm aware. That's me not knowing japanese more than through anime though, just saying to be cautious with interpretations like that when it can be a cultural difference thing (though it does fit).
@@Laezar1 I'm no Japanese expert, but I am a translator. Ghibli movies usually get close to perfect translations in my country, and he still says «Sen», not you. He doesn't have a mouth animation there, so sounds don't need to sync with animation. I'd like to remind that translation goes beyond words, but seek intent. What I mean by this, is that if him calling her Sen this way was just like that because it's a Japanese structure and cultural thing, it would've been translated into «you», because that's how my language works and what finds polite. By taking about her in third person in front of her, in my culture it sounds like he's otherising her and being rude. Keeping it like it is ("I want Sen, I want Sen...") is a conscious choice. Moreover, no other character does this, si it's clearly not a "Japanese thing", but something only No Face does. I hope this can shed some light onto the matter! :) PS: You do well taking different cultures into account when interpreting media, I just wanted to add my two cents.
You make a good point, you could even say that he doesn't want her, he wants work her. I know he doesn't know her real name is Chihiro, but it really shows just how little he knows her.
In Japanese culture, the nod is just that-it’s a small bow to show respect and politeness, esp bc when she met no-face, it was as “customer” and “employee,” and bc in many Japanese myths, it’s customary to treat spirits politely out of respect and to prevent them from becoming angry or vengeful. So you’re absolutely right!!
@@celoratz if you take it at surface level, it's the difference between selfish and selfless affection. Acting on the "I want you to be happy" can harm you in the process, and acting on "I want your happiness" can harm them. Though there's also the fact that you can involuntarily hurt people through selfless acts, and my belief that if you trace the reason for your actions far enough back they're all selfish
To me no-face represents profound emptiness. He's not a spirit, he doesn't have a name, and he takes on the negative characteristics of those around him. If you try to feed him he becomes a monster, a bottomless pit of need. But if you quietly acknowledge him and get on with life he become just a faint shadow.
It also makes sense why grannie is capable of keeping him. She feeds him appropriately and realized that when utilized he can be a "great worker" (good motivator), shes older and wiser and knows how to handle emptiness
No Face could be seen as symbolic of a person whose suffered neglect and corruption with no real experience with love or care: he’s locked out of the bathhouse despite being relatively un assuming, and when he gets in, he’s corrupted by the greed and selfishness of the people around him. He’s literally a product of his environment, and could be compared to a child, being a blank slate with no formed identity. This kind of puts him on the same level of emotional maturity as Chihiro, at least for me, since their character development is parallel to one another’s. No Face isn’t really evil or good, but he’s definitely easily corruptible, selfish, and lonely, which present themselves in the worst way when he’s surrounded by enablers. His obsession with Chihiro stems from him seeing genuine decency (which was her simply LETTING HIM IN THROUGH THE DOOR, a minor thing most people do for each other without thinking), and him immediately conflating that with friendship. Then, No Face tries to repay the “friendship” in the same way as he did with everyone else in the bathhouse; giving her gifts and money. Chihiro, meanwhile, doesn’t know the guy from a hole in the wall, but she was kind of forced to deal with him because he became her problem, so she kindly rejects the gift. When she rejects his gifts, he takes it as a personal attack; because he has grown to tie money and material things to how “loved” he is, he sees it as her rejecting HIM, not her merely rejecting his gift or friendship. Him trying to eat her is a culmination of his frustration and entitlement, as it doesn’t make sense to No Face when he’s been told what to give to people in order to win them over, and sees Chihiro’s refusal as an issue with HER. Chihiro doesn’t hate No Face, she just doesn’t actually know him. In the end, I like how No Face ended up. Chihiro doesn’t really become the best of friends, but his experience with her allowed him to develop in a more healthy way after she gave him the medicine, and, unknowingly, a route of escape. Eventually, he unlearns the toxicity he was so entrenched in, and lives with Zeniba in a place separate from the corruption of the bathhouse. It shows that people can overcome their circumstances if they divorce from the toxicity. I don’t think No Face’s obsession with Chihiro is really romantic, since Chihiro is a child and No Face is a bit too emotionally naive, but I think his obsession can be applied to all types of relationships, platonic, romantic, familial, etc.
I agree with most of this comment 🙌 however I think it's important to notice that while no face has the maturity of an impressionable child, he actually has access to power that the actual human child does not. He has "money" and "physical power" that she does not and it's clearly a huge gap.
Ever considered that they wouldn't let him trough because he is a murderer? I feel like people forget that it murdered multiple people the moment they paid it any kind of attention. "genuine compassion" or not, but refusing service to dangerous and volatile individuals is a right for any establishment owner.
@@lexa2310 we don’t know what he did before the movie though, it very well could be that he ate people before- but it could also be that he just wasnt allowed in.
@@lexa2310Murderers, sure. "Volatile"? No, that's just an excuse for discriminating against people you don't like, anyone that isn't performing a perfect whte calmness in this perfectly calm whte world we live in, as has been lived and reported on by countless people for simply being disabled in public. "Volatile" is the same argument used to justify the public m*rder of #JordanNeely ffs. Get that sht out of your vocabulary.
The misinterpretation that Chihiro is friends with no face has the same energy as the misinterpretation that Steven forgave the diamonds in Steven universe. Chihiro is being polite and kind out of a sense of basic decency and respect for others, but not from any personal connection. And Steven is only civil with the diamonds because he acknowledges that it’s the best way to keep the peace and make actual, significant change, along with his personal ideas about compassion and respect, like Chihiro. He only is able to get through to the diamonds by showing understanding for their situation and by seeing them as people who have been hurt, but that doesn’t mean he “forgives” them or wants to be friends with them, and he shows visible discomfort whenever he has to interact with them. It says a lot about how politeness or basic decency are consistently interpreted as personal relationships or indication of a connection. I think it says a lot about how common it is to not think that other people inherently deserve that civility, that they have to “earn” it, so if someone is polite or kind, it somehow means you’ve made an impact on them personally to earn that kindness. And on the flip side, it means that people misinterpret any politeness as complete acceptance and/or forgiveness of someone’s actions/behaviors.
Tbh I didn't read this but you mentioned Steven Universe and I literally just a few seconds ago learned that the english voice actor for Lin in Spirited Away is LITERALLY ROSE QUARTZ
Why do we do this to ourselves?? I have to do so much yoga to overcompensate how often I sit with my spine oddly contorted for hours for NO GODDAMN REASON! uhg
Me: (taking note of how I currently look like M.C. Escher posed me on my couch) I'm... _fairly_ certain that's less of a bi thing and more of an aggressively non-conformist thing; though I suppose that demographic Venn diagram probably has a lot of overlap XD
I remember reading something about how Freud actually had a theory that women were largely being abused due to their position in society but simply suggesting that idea got him so far removed from social circles (all of which were men because that's how society was structured then) that he ended up canning it and made up his crazy theories instead which were much more welcomed cuz patriarchy
yes that's correct, he backed himself into a corner when he claimed that pretty much all mental illness was a product of sexual abuse ( sexual abuse rates at that time were probably insanely high but it wasn't really spoken of in polite society) , so Freud started questioning his theories as trusted colleagues expressed their disapproval and the numbers didn't seem to add up ( although they probably did)
A lot of Freud's Freud-isms translate weirdly well to modern progressive thinking when pushed through the filter of history, personal context and extreme cocaine use. Penis envy, taken literally, is utter nonsense. Penis envy when seen as a metaphorical recognition of men's societal power and sexual aggressiveness as symbolised through the phallus? That's something we can talk about. A girl does not literally want to take her father's penis, but on some level, she recognises that her father has been granted status and power based entirely on the fact that he's a man, and that realisation will be profound and potentially traumatic for her. In "Dora", there's this incredibly frustrating sequence where he's talking about a female patient of his who got triggered by a dog barking at her in a stairwell and had an intense panic attack. Her peers just thought she was being hysterical, but through her work with Freud she managed to piece it together with a time when she was assaulted by a man in a similar stairwell, and Freud inferred that the resulting trauma of this led to a heightened sensitivity in such situations and increased need to feel comfortable when in unfamiliar surroundings. This was very important stuff, and frankly, very empathetic and healing of him. AND THEN HE JUST HAD TO GO AND SAY THAT THE DEEPER REASON WAS BECAUSE SHE WAS ASHAMED OF BEING TURNED ON BY HER ATTACKER. This is what makes Freud so incredibly compelling in my opinion. Because psychoanalysis was so new and so singular, it was entirely dependant on the opinions of a mere handful of people, Freud most prominent among them. Which meant that any personal hangups Freud had, psychoanalysis had too. But at its core, the theories he posited about dreams, the unconscious, trauma and sexuality were actually revolutionary, and a lot of them have aged well. Unfortunately, as well as being quite brilliant, he was also a weird and misogynistic man - not misogynistic in the same way as his contemporaries, but it still seeped its way into his work, and it didn't get filtered out in the same way a lot of other ideas in similar fields have because psychoanalysis is still relatively new and unexplored.
To be fair, the movie explicitly calls No Face, Boh, and Yubaba's bird her friends. At the end of the movie when Zeniba gives her the hair tie she says it'll protect her because it was "...made from the threads your friends wove together"
@@MikusDad39 You could take that line to only be directed at the baby and the bird since she does befriend those. It doesn't specify that all who made the thread are her friends, just that multiple friends helped create the thread
@@sokumachi729 that's kind of nitpicky though, there's not really much point in getting so in the weeds about what is at its core a children's movie that you end up debating the semantics of who's included in a line about friendship. the movie doesn't do a good job of establishing no face as her friend but that's still most likely what was intended and it's not a leap for viewers to make that assumption after a casual viewing
@@MikusDad39 just cuss it's a piece of kids media doesn't mean there can't be any depth? The best kids media can be enjoyed by anyone, even those finding depth in scenes and words. Semantics are what makes any character study. Never said people can't come to one conclusion, just adding on that semantics can bring you to any other conclusion
@@sokumachi729 I specified there's no reason to get into semantics about *a line about friendship in a children's movie* specifically regarding who is and is not being referred to as one of Chihiro's friends. I'm not making any commentary about the depth of children's movies or the usefulness of semantics discussions, I'm saying in this particular case the person writing the dialogue in that scene probably wasn't thinking "okay, so Yu-bird and Boh are her friends but No Face isn't" and that the intention of the line was likely to indicate the entire group as being friends of hers; I'm fully aware of the fact that other readings of this line, as evidenced by the fact that my original comment is directed at someone who expressed confusion at the idea of people reading the relationship between Chihiro and No Face as being friendship. If you want to get really in the weeds about the semantics of this movie, we're trying to discuss the meaning of the dialogue in a movie using the English localization despite the movie originally being written and produced in Japanese- any inferences we make based on anything other than the original dialogue are moot because the meaning may well have been distorted due to anything from how long a line has to be to sync the new dialogue with the existing animation to a variety of untranslatable phrases and culture-specific idioms and other turns of phrase that are drastically changed and/or simplified for the sake of allowing the new audience to understand what's going on. 日本語が話せますか?
I never really read anything romantic into it, because Chihiro is like 12, but the rest is totally true. No Face wants a friend, to feel wanted, and to feel seen. That’s why he’s called No Face. Because he’s basically invisible to everyone. No one gives him the time of day because on first impression he seems scary and mysterious. Chihiro was the first person who payed attention to him. She didn’t like him. She wasn’t his friend. But she noticed him and was kind to him and that was all he needed to project. He really is kind of a simp lol. But I still feel a bit bad for him. And I like his character arc of learning positive attention vs negative attention.
I don't think he meant to express the idea that No Face had romantic feelings, I think all that was just a metaphor, with the whole incel comparison and all.
Yes, I believe the romantic comparison in the video is mostly a joke. There's some validity and truth to it, because Incel's behaviour is just a variation of this very same idea, but twisted to be about sex.
@@BigBadWolframio most peoples theory is that no face represents a child latching onto people and how they are effected by their environment, aka capitalism in this case i guess, his hot takes were so good though like damn
15:35 It dawns on me that right here Chihiro is acting as No-Face’s impromptu therapist. Seeing what is clearly making him suffer and believing that he needs to get away from it. Not because she cares for him as a friend, but because Chihiro is a kind person that doesn’t like seeing other beings suffer. Aside from that, he really is nothing to her. THIS VIDEO ESSAY IS SO FLIPPIN’ WELL DONE!!!
there is also the clinical material he collected through years of interacting with patients and colleagues, as well as reading papers in a wide variety of humanities ( but most importantly perhaps anthropology) but except from that meticulous research yes, pop-culture Freud is probably like that but not the actual man
I think it makes sense if you think about the geography... maybe the species started in that area? I mean, are there African bears? South American? There aren't polar bears in the South / Antarctic...
@@JanaeSmith TL:DR, there _are_ bears native South America, there _were_ bears in Africa, and it's weird that _anything_ that's not heavily aquatic or flight capable and migratory lives in the Antarctic (I'm looking at you, penguin freaks). The longer version: Africa _had_ the Atlas Bear, before the romans hunted them to extinction for use in their colosseums and gladiatorial games, which was considered native to Africa, as well as smaller cave bears in the fossil record that seem to have died out due to competition with other native species. Whether you _truly_ consider them native depends on how far back you'd prefer to look, but it would go against accepted convention to claim they weren't; you'd have to disqualify a majority of 'native species' world wide if you did so. We currently believe the earliest known ancestor to _all_ modern bears came from Asia during the Miocene epoch before migrating to the rest of the world and evolving into the various species of bear we know now, and while I'm not sure exactly _where_ in Asia it originated (fucking academic paywalls prevent me from double checking and I don't want to provide false information) there _is_ a non-zero chance that they originated in Russia as modern Russia spans both the Asian and European continents. So... this joke _might_ actually be on the money, though I couldn't say with any certainty that they didn't come from china instead; where much of the immediately available(to me rn) fossil record for Ursavus seems to come from. That said, the climate in the Miocene was quite different then today, and the Ursavus would have evolved in a humid forest biome so the connection between bears as we know them today and climate that you make is far more tenuous then one might suspect; especially when one considers Tremarctos ornatus, the last surviving species of a family of bears native to South America, is actually _older_ then the polar bear. It's believed the lack of prolific bear presence in Africa was due to the difficulty in crossing the Sahara and potentially the presence of native super predators. The cave bear fossils found are notable in that they _were_ found south of the desert with a harder to pinpoint origin, where as the Atlas bear was found to it's north and is _believed_ to have come from Spain at some unknown point. As for a lack of bears in the Antarctic, that's a matter of 'How the hell would they even get there?' Like, seriously, the Antarctic is so damn isolated from the rest of the world that it's practically an ecological dead zone for _most_ species. It has whales and seals, a couple mostly seasonal birds, and of course a few species of non-seasonal penguins, but the region is practically uninhabitable for other species. That bears live in the _arctic_ is a surprise that makes much more sense when you realize Polar Bears are the _youngest_ existent species of bear, but with most bears being omnivorous yet leaning more towards herbivorous diets it _shouldn't_ come as a surprise that they took a while to adjust to cooler climates with less vegetation. Sorry for the long ass info dump. Now that I've written it all out it seems like a bit much considering this is a convo spawned by a joke. I just watch too many documentaries, so I get a little over excited when I get a chance to share... Now that I've noticed the length of my little rant I've added a TL:DR to the start of the comment. If you've read this far, cheers, thanks for sticking with me :)
15:29 even as a kid I saw this as No-Face pathetically following her, hoping to get her, but he's too weak to manage it. He can't beat her, he knows it, but he follows along because he still *wants* her. Granny doesn't keep him around because she likes him, she does it *to protect Sen.* Granny is old, she's wise and she's strong. He is no threat to her. Granny sees a reason to keep him there and keep him away from Sen, and she seizes on it immediately. No-Face then uses that opportunity in his own right to try and become a better person, the person people want to be around. Granny is defending Chihiro from a weird guy, in a subtle way, and the weird guy sort of understands what's going on and works to grow. It doesn't always work, but when a creeper becomes less creepy this is how it works.
Since you mentioned Freud can we talk about the fact that, upon discovering a huge amount of his patients trauma was rooted in sexual abuse he just decided (with no reasoning or evidence ofc ofc) that they were just making it up? All my homies hate Freud
Freud being 90% of time wrong, noticed that the children reporting being sexually abused by their governesses had copied the stories from paper. Can give him that. The rest is history. One once said he wasn’t a psychiatrist but a novelist, however, none of those g-damn analysts after him figure that out either.
As an abuse victim when I learned that it actually made me rage for months thinking that if this esteemed dude had just given ALL those reports SOME credibility things might have been different sooner. But he was only one guy in the end and likely his choice to dismiss them was based on how he and his peers worked collectively. Still I feel terrible for the people who shared with him only to be so utterly let down.
"Thanks;" "I don't need that;" and "I got somewhere to be." Then she ignores him completely while saying goodbye to her friend. Every woman in a customer service job that requires arguably "sexy" clothing understands this. Yes, this includes 99% of waitresses.
An old-usual asked if he could take a picture of me "as a memory" since I had to stop working at a café, last winter. Sir- The word only got out to the usuals because some of them were nice, old, retired people- And I wanted them to know where I went, because they often asked about the other people that left(got fired/quit), other waiters and waitresses. And yes, I had formed a bond with some of them. Like a lady with a pet bird she gushed about, she loved animals! But that guy- The guy that talked bad about other waitresses TO ME? The guy that talked WEIRD about other waitresses TO ME? UM- I literally didn't have a single personable conversation with that man💀
I'm so glad it's not just me that read No-Face's approach to Sen as sexual! When I was younger, I got so many icky feelings from the way he talks to her in the bathhouse, and as I got older, I realized he felt super predatory. I tried seeing if other people shared my opinion, through articles and essays, but I could never find any that argued the same thing. Thanks for validating what my 12 year old self instinctively knew, lol.
I've been reading the Sing-Song Girls of Shanghai (a late 19th century Chinese novel about the courtesans and lower class sex workers in then-contemporary Shanghai) and there's a scene that reminded me of Yubaba's contract near the beginning: One of the sing-song house madames presents a girl she recently bought (not hired, bought) for the house to one of the clients there. This girl only just arrived, they still needed to set up a room for her, and she knows that she'll be stuck there working until she can find someone to pay off her debts to the house. The madame doesn't talk to her at all, just shows her to the client and asks him what he thinks they should name her. The madame and the client treat this as light-hearted and good-humored conversation, but I think the audience is supposed to feel it as wrong and dehumanizing. The work and its author, Han Bangqing, are considered notable for how sympathetically they portray the courtesans and other sex workers and how unsensationalized the subject matter is compared to similar works published before and since. I love Spirited Away, but I've learned to not talk about it because people treat me like some kind of pervert for commenting on subtext I thought was obvious.
@@seraphinasullivan4849 im pretty sure the bath house can be read as some kind of sex work at least i have read that interpretation before so you are not alone
@@maca76 yep. Some bathhouse attendants would moonlight as sex workers to make ends meet, and if i'm not mistaken, the term for them (can't remember the exact word) was also Chihiro's job title in the original Japanese audio. There's also the yukaku, historical Japanese red light districts, were girls could be sent to work as punishment for their parents crimes. Let's Ask Shogo made a very informative video on the topic There's another neat little fact like this too, but I don't want to get into conspiracy theory territory. Basically, it's very easy to read it that way, even if a complete one to one allegory was not intended
theres this weird feeling when you know something is complex and you cant understand it like you only know surface level shit and you wanna understand it deeper but you just dont know. its like your brain is just itching to know and to understand and when somebody explains it, when they break it down perfectly, you just think FINALLY THIS IS IT. THIS. IS. IT. PEACE AT LAST.
Now, now, Freud gave us exactly one useful term in his body of work; Projecting. Ironically, it seems to be what he was doing with practically his entire body of work XD As for being a fraud, well, _all_ "science" from his time period was rather sketchy, as scientific method wasn't really a thing that was properly codified or widely respected so... he did what he could with the tools he was given, and more seriously he at least he pointed us in the _vague_ direction of modern therapy; which is commendable, even if they guy's ideas were rather... self-reflective.
@@lucqq3792 Yup, scientific method totally existed as a concept, but like I said it "wasn't really a thing that was properly codified or widely respected". While Robert Boyle was advocating for reproducibility of experiments in the mid 17th century, his philosophy on the mater was slow to catch on and he certainly didn't aim to instruct others on how to perform experiments, outside of those conducted with his own vacuum air pump, or even _touch_ on the concept of statistical significance. The book "The Design of Experiments" by Ronald Fisher is widely considered to have been the basis for hypothesis testing and statistical significance. Before it's release and the proliferation of it's specific methodologies and ideas scientists had been exploring the _philosophy_ of scientific method, but quite often ran very flawed experiments wherein any result, no matter how insignificant or specific the circumstances required for it's replication, they tried to draw conclusions from. "The Design of Experiments" came out in 1935, a full five years _after_ Freud had already been awarded for his lifetime of work and only four years _before_ his death at the age of 83. _Functionally_ speaking, the dude was pre-scientific method, because what in his day was accepted as 'good science' was very different then our modern conception. It wasn't just a matter of having more to falsify, it was a mater of not understanding _how_ to properly falsify; especially in a field of soft science like psychology. And pedantic is such a _negative_ word, I prefer 'compulsively attentive to detail'. :P
I always viewed No-Face as essentially a mirror of his surroundings. He was in a hyper-capitalist jail so he becomes a hyper-capitalist abuser. He moves to a modest cottage so he again changes to fit his surroundings. I really like this different perspective!
Im pretty sure your interpretation is closer to the truth. Thats why Chihiro specifically mentions he has to get out of the bath house. He's essentially a mirror imitating the behaviour of his surroundings, the consumption driven market place environment of the bathhouse is what turned him into a monster.
@@pindaenbeer that and the "I'm lonely..." thing is clearly an attempt to manipulate, but is also probably true. No-Face more or less does what he figures will make him liked and accepted. Well, and eats frog-men.
I think it's a rather layered character and your interpretation is also part of the truth. But like, the video talks more about what the character represents, while you're talking about how it manifest in a concrete manner in the movie. They aren't exclusive at all.
I agree with this interpretation that he is like a mirror and also like a sponge. I think he is drawn as translucent because he absorbs, as if by osmosis, the energy around him. His temperament changes based on different surroundings.
@@pindaenbeer Potentially why they made a point of calling him "no face". He has no real identity of his own, and so becomes a reflection of his surroundings. I think it's telling that when he comes back to his original shape everyone he eats comes out unharmed, implying no face doesn't actually need to eat for any functional reason, he's just mimicking what people come to the bathhouse to do. It's a kids film so they can't lean on this subtext, but in classical Japan bathhouses were often also brothels so when no face literally consumes other people to satiate his loneliness he's doing what a lot of men throughout history came to bathhouses to do figuratively.
This was hilarious and true. Note how incels dislike older married women yet No Face finds comfort in staying with Granny who's probably been married at one time. Personally I liked Granny & Obaa-san because they are different sides of the same coin: Industry. Obaa-san just wanted to provide & care for her "kid" yet ended up spoiling him rotten with luxury thus stunting his maturity. She worked long hard hours away from her kid in her bathhouse business. Granny is the chill cottagecore lady who accepts things. She does cottage/home industry skills like spinning and knitting. People, especially women had to learn these skills to make clothes for their family. This changed when the Industrial Revolution started. Granny ended up being forgotten about until visited by the Crush Couple.
I feel like you could say that to invalidate being sad about literally anything thought. Like even if something doesn’t mean you should kill yourself that doesn’t take away from how much it can truly suck.
@@ataraxia7439 Yes, but that's outside of the context in wich it's said. They propose the idea of sex being an optional activity in a hypersexual society who barely acknowledge ace people exist, in this context it just brings light to a more inclusive perspective of sex. Ofc the same logic in other situation can be harmful, but here that's not the case
@@thesaddestdude3575 I'm really sorry to hear that. That's a very serious thing to be feeling and I really hope you get what ever help or support you need to not feel that way anymore. You matter just as much as anyone else and I really hope things get easier for you.
@@thiswillnotdo6027 It was a pretty typical homemade No Face costume, but then the schtick was that I was handing out "gold" to people (I used gold chocolate coins), to do so I had to pick up the bottom of the outfit, thus showing I had black leather short shorts and thigh high heeled boots underneath. Basically *I'm* sexy and I dressed as No Face
one time i got bored, got a Freud book from my local library, opened it, first page i opened to said that seeing a bolo tie in one's dream represents male genitalia. my man was bullshitting his way through his medical and scientific career and somehow still is relevant in our media today and makes me unreasonably upset about a dead man
I’m procrastinating on my sociology homework by watching this and cartoons at the same time and I feel like my ADHD brain is ascending to another plane of existence. We live in a society.
@@liziren1983 Yeah I don't think No Face on his own can talk, he kinda makes noises similar to a baby, but after he consumed some of the people, he talked using their voices (i feel like there was one point where he was kinds switching between the frog and the other guy he swallowed but I could be wrong)
@@liziren1983 omg "using the frog's voice" is so much like incels just using the words/arguments they found online and spewing those voices out of their own hollow mouths 🧐
I actually didn't realize NoFace even spoke. Granted, I saw it as a kid who hardly understood English and was so damn traumatized by the whole parents turning into pigs thing.
My interpretation was that No Face preys on the greedy. He lets people have a little (a single bath token for Chihiro and a gold piece for the frog) and if they try to take more (extra tokens and fistfuls of gold) he eats them as punishment. He was trying to get Chihiro to give in to greed before she gave him the medicine. But I like your interpretation as well
I mean there is clearly a bit of that, and actually that also works with the capitalistic interpretation in that if you become greedy under capitalism you get metaphorically "swallowed" by it. Or said in more contemporary term "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism". You can't break capitalism by being a bigger capitalist etc etc. But also there is definitely some amount of... not that. Like, when no face tries to swallow chihiro because she refuses his offers that's clearly not part of a "punisher of the greedy" thing. Also I really like the incel interpretation cause there is a lot of that "nice guy" entitlement in no face. Like "I wasn't a dick to her why doesn't she want to fuck me?" is basically at the core of a lot of incel thoughts (or similar behaviors). The idea that by offering something to someone you are entitled to get something in exchange wether or not they agreed to the exchange. (there again it's very layered cause it works both as a man/woman relationship interpretation, but also as a capitalism metaphor in that capitalism makes everything into a trade, nothing is free, and when it's free you're the product etc etc.)
I think this evaluation of this relationship (or lack thereof) is really interesting since it's quite clear from the beginning that they can't really get close, he's a spirit not a human, and doesn't have a human form like Haku does... So Chihiro and he never really could communicate and she does exactly what you're supposed to do with spirits, i.e. Be polite and help them out if necessary--it's a responsibility rather than a relationship
this is the vibe that i got watching the movie! i saw him kinda like a big dangerous animal that's hard to handle but he's acting on instinct instead of being consciously good/evil
@@lulucool45 Not gonna lie, big dangerous animals that are hard to handle, acting on instinct instead of being consciously good or evil is _essentially_ how I'd describe most of our species. Depending on the day I might add that sometimes, if you don't put us in too large groups, we can be sorta clever.
I just came from The Take's video and getting to understand the deeper meaning of No Face character is truly fascinating. To read Zen's lack of interest in No Face is so symbolic: a full rejection of the empty promises of money and modern society idealisms. They never got to her, she didn't even care for its existence. Thank you for sharing and helping reinterpreting our childhood, much love. ♡
No-Face in many ways is a spirit that represents like ..an empty empath spirit. He is a reflection of what's around him. He is never allowed into the bathhouse - because he is just a rogue wandering spirit. Chihiro letting him into the bath house and empathising with him, allows him to begin engaging with the other inhabitants there, when all he wanted was to be around Chihiro as she gave him some empathy. I totally see how you can read 'incel' into that, at least metaphorically. In many ways No-Face - as a masked 'no(h)-theatre' actor spirit is a reflection and mirror (like an actor mirrors characters/people). He needs something healthy to mirror , kind of like we all do in society in a way. note: He literally absorbs people to, that's an important thing, he also reflects their desire for gold and food etc. He is a reflection, and the bathhouse can be linked to prostitution (the taking away of your name etc.) - so you can definitely metaphorically see the incel vibe.
okay but the “sen what did you do to me, I’ll get you for this sen” hits so much deeper now that you brought this all up. they create this imaginary idealized version of whoever they’re fixated on, even an idealized version of a nowhere near existent version. when they don’t meet those made up expectations and ideas, that they created themselves in their head, it’s the other person’s fault
gaslighting in a nutshell. its as if they've already planned out a relationship and cling onto it as if there is no other way a relationship could flourish
I agree with you, though in the context of the movie it's because she fed him that weird magic ball from the river god, and it made him throw everything up
Hmm... So I'm two years on testosterone and three years post top-surgery, right Seeing you for the first time, I feel like Dante at the gates of Gender Expression and I think my Virgil just appeared
THIS IS SO POETIC? also good for you my guy :) im praying to every god i get top surgery soon so i can explore finally explore every type of clothing i want!!!!
I heard someone say frued actually originally said dads were sexually abusing their daughters and it was wrong, then the dads threatened him and he changed it to say the daughters wanted it? which if thats true hes awful either way, since thats all people know now.
My sociology, anthropology and psychology teacher had a HUGE obsession with Freud and that is just one (1) of the very suspicious things he did. Everyone who took his class is afraid of him because of what he said.
Man these videos are like a fever dream. Nothing makes sense but everything does and I think I learned the meaning of life somewhere in there? But I got distracted by the fun colors and now I've forgotten it
I honestly feel bad for No-Face. Because he looks lonely, and desperate for attention. And people who crave attention are usually very isolated. That’s what makes me sad about No-Face, he seems invisible to everyone. I think the people of the spirit world either feared him or just ignored him. That is why, Chihiro noticing him made him think she cared about him. But the problem with No-Face is that he gets attached to people the wrong way…and people ignoring him made him think that the only way to get people to love him was by rewarding them. Giving them what they want and basically buying their attention.
When we're starved of the basic elements we need for life, whether water, air, or love, our survival instincts kick in. After a day without water, a human body doesn't typically react to the first sip with slowness, they chug down every drop immediately. After holding your breath underwater or intense exercise, a human body doesn't typically return to a normal breathing rate immediately, it tends to gasp for as much air as quickly as it can to return to stasis. I see the same happening with love in people subjected to western societies -- gasping, flailing, anything for just a breath, and not out of true intention but simply out of a profound starvation.
no-face’s obsession with chihiro reads more a lot like a parasocial relationship to me, you compared it to guys drooling over girls online who will never notice or give a shit about them, i think of adolescents/teens who will go to any lengths to talk to and defend their favorite streamers, no matter how many terrible things they do and say openly. these people love the idea of this person so much, they love the personality this person shows (and usually their appearance as well), and so any criticism of this person or any perceived rejection from them will make them aggressive, much like no-face. just my take on it though, very entertaining video as always :)
No, his analogy fits much better, as the fans take out their aggression on 8ther people more than streamers, while incels do what no face did to chihiro. Anyways, the reasoning is still the same, it's just that the appearances are a little different.
No Face always made me uncomfortable and I never knew why he always made me so. You though have pinpointed all the reasons why he made me uncomfortable and I thank you sir.
why is no one talking about this persons bombastic personality. i love it. i was expecting a quirky lil deep thought about a ghibli movie that gotten outta hand and was turned into a video idea but this is so much more thab that wtf.
Thanks so much for this! I never understood why Noface became the caricature of this movie. It makes sense that the character who is epitomized as a symbol for overconsumption is the one that's most consumed. Their "relationship" was never appealing??
THANK you for acknowledging how Fraud ignored aces. I tried to tell my film teacher because I’m ace and was uncomfortable with how he treated Freud’s theory as fine for seeing everything through a sexual lense. While criticizing every other aspect, he basically said, “you have to admit he has a point” about how sexual the world is and all I have to say is No!
OOF. Exact same boat for me, except my teacher actually did acknowledge asexuals and critiqued a lot of his points. I'm sorry your teacher said that that's so wack. It's not even just him saying he agrees, he's telling you you HAVE to admit that he has a point when- I? I don't? I don't actually think sex is that important and I think it has little to no effect on my life! So yeah I am feeling for you. I am just so tired of people acting like sex is the determining factor in life and "if you disagree, no you don't".
Freud's blantant and persistent need to view EVERYTHING in a sexual light never sat right with me. Not then when I first learned about him, and definitely not now.
@Who Whoo Well, no, I don't think so. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to say Freud was sort-of-right just because of that. This conversation isn't even about that, no one said we disagree with human contact as a whole. One, cuddling is not a form of sex. It's a form of affection, either romantic or even platonic, there is nothing sexual about the act of cuddling alone. Parents cuddle their children, siblings cuddle each other, owners cuddle their dogs, characters cuddle in the tamest of children's movies, it'd be plain wrong if it was sexual. Yes there are a lot of asexuals who like cuddling, but cuddling is not a form of sex (if cuddling was a form of sex, then why would asexuals like it? Like I know it's a spectrum but it only makes sense), and it's pretty clear that Freud's theories are specifically sexual. I have nothing against the theory that humans are driven by human contact, even just emotionally- lots of psychologists believe that we're driven by human connections, in direct disagreement with Freud's theories. Yes, if you replace sex with human contact, Freud would be right in my opinion, but Freud *didn't* say that. I'm just saying, it's a huge leap to say that cuddling is a form of sex and that Freud would have accepted that.
@Who Whoo @Who Whoo I think you may be confused. In your final sentance you state ' if you replace sex with human contact Freud was right' which means you are acknowledging that human contact isn't inheritly sexual. But yet you say that cuddling is a form of sex. Cuddling is the most basic form of human affection, and is expressed through nearly all types of relationships, platonic or otherwise. Of course, for individuals they may enjoy it less the others, but it is not sexual. Is it sex when a parent cuddles their child? Is it sex when someone and their dog cuddles? Is it sex when close friends or family members cuddle? No its not, and if you think so I think you should look into it more. Maybe you need a platonic hug from someone. You might argue, 'oh but I mean full body cuddling, spooning, not just a hug' and sadly that is still incorrect because many people who have a bond, a platonic bond may cuddle like that. People who are asexual don't experience sexual attraction, (this can be on a scale from no sexual attraction to experiencing some. But for this argument we will focus on an overall lack of attraction) but many asexuals are very affectionate people. Many asexuals, even sex replused ones may adore cuddling. There are even types of relationships that are a commitment type of relationship simular to a typical romantic one that just isn't sexual, or maybe even not romantic. Cuddling isn't sexual unless you make it. Anything can be sexual if the parties involved both consent. But, you may have just been confused. Human contact is an important thing. But even some people thrive without it. Human contact typically is an important part in someones well being. This doesn't have to by physical, but if people make everything out to be sexual then nothing will ever be comfortable for those who aren't attracted that way you know? People tend to normalize female and feminine presenting people's friendships with being more affectionate, but rarely do we see male and masculine presenting friendships be allowd to show affection. I think society needs to normalize cuddling and affecton between friends, of all genders. Its not sexual. And it doesn't define you. Most people want a hug once in a while. Watching a movie with a friend, even with just your legs tanged up can be nice. - sincerely, An asexual
Btw, by "no matter what kind it is", I know people have preferences and some forms of sex people don't like, I just mean arousal is what characterizes all forms of sex. Also, I'm sorry if I accidentally sent a bunch of the same comment, I think RU-vid is glitching out rn
@@cyborgsaiko with Hal! The incel type that won’t give up and ends up putting their interest in danger, I think there was other things too but I can’t remember.
I never realized til now how similar the dynamic is between this and Phantom. He fetishized Christine to the point of lying & manipulation and kidnapping but it was only when she put up boundaries, said NO, and made it clear she wants to leave, that the Phantom truly learns to love healthily by *letting her go.*
And then the whole meaning gets fucked up by the second musical, in which the phantom threatens Christine and it's TrUE LoVE. While her best friend turns HySteRIC and stuff.
“Why did Robert Downey Jr. follow up EndGame with Dr Doolittle?” Oh the questions that will always remain answered in my life lol thanks for putting THAT in my head...
Okay, I'm just 4 minutes in but the whole "nod" scene feels very funny when you describe it like that, cuz that's not what I see at all. That isn't a "please help me" nod, it's just a greeting, Sen is in the middle of work and she thinks No-Face is a customer. If she was asking for the ticket, she would have at least moved her eyes to show it, animation is usually not subtle about things like that. (I don't wanna come across as "ur wrong lol", I like hearing other people's interpretations, that's the fun of watching video essays after all. I just wanted to give my own cuz I love this movie a lot.)
Yeah, Sen doesn’t even try to get No-Face to _do_ anything for her. All she does is give _him_ the bare decency of letting him in out of the rain. She still owes him nothing either way, of course, but yeah, it feels like it extra-hammers in the point that she never once asked for any favors. Just like she didn’t ask for his tokens, or gold, or attention, or obsession.
oh this is based, I'm just a cel but used to have that in in front and man that was a trip. The big realization it took for me was it's not that nice guys finish last it's that losers convince themselves they were nice. Also that niceness only affects so much of any given situation and you still need to be a complete person even if you do say please and thank you
Additionally, its canon that no face absorbs the emotions and feelings of those around him, which is also an explanation as to why he became so greedy in the bathhouse
The algorithm blessed me today lmao this was great. “It’s romantic as FUCK right infront of No Face’s non-face” mystic river boyfriend jfc 😂😂😂 thanks for the serotonin
Earned a sub for somehow following through on the title in a thoughtful way and simping for Haku-that dragon bf set the standard and I never recovered.
This video showed up in my suggestions at the perfect moment for me. Unironically, thanks for making this. I don't feel happier after this, but I think you helped me see some of my own emotionally unhealthy habits printed onto No Face.
This feels like a 2am existential crisis and I didn’t understand half of it, but somehow the main point got across to me so 10/10 would experience this content again
Interesting perspective. I saw an interview with Miyazaki once about how Sen means girl and is often a name given to new girls at whore houses and if that was intentional. He just said it was interesting. I'm probably projecting here, but I always looked at no face as a representation of depression and the ability to find your way out of the dark. You want to be around people who have been kind to you. You try to do what you think will make others happy. It resonated a lot with me, but then again, projecting.
what interview? i sincerely doubt someone would ask miyazaki, who is very vocal about how he wants to give young girls role models, if the main character of spirited away is a prostitute.
@@letsichigo Maybe that's why the film doesn't bring it above subtext and criticizes the exploitative condition the character's in. Chihiro doesn't suceed for working in that place, she suceeds despite working there.
bathing house was a synonym for brothel actually and yubaba means "hot water old woman" which basically means she's liker the owner of the brothel. just a theory. you can google it.
you know... for the longest time i just enjoyed the aesthetic and wholesome aspects of spirited away without thinking too hard about the deeper meaning, and now considering the plot of the show and the artistic choices and everything this feels like a scarily accurate analysis. i will never be able to watch this movie the same way again, thank you good sir.
