Optimize Melee in Dnd 5E 

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If archers are even further away, you can dash and then drop prone at the end, to get the same effect of move and dodge, but cover more ground

One thing that isnt mentioned here is a pretty niche tactic i like to use myself. The easiest way to optimize the effect you have as a melee, is to drop dead so your spell casters start panicking and whip out their spells instead of going to bed with 7 Spell slots left over.

the fact that the DM has forgotten to give one bandits a healthbar makes this far to accurate

Kobold: "Why would else would you watch optimization videos?" Me who's a DM: I just want to challenge my players' abilities by knowing what they do effectively.

Fun thing about shoving people prone! It can be a very fun way to tackle flying enemies without hover! If your caster friends are nice enough to cast fly on you as well you can shove your flying opponents to the ground as flying creatures when knocked prone fall. Great video as always Kobold!

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="180">3:00</a> dodging is also good instead of disengage, sure disengage removes op attacks entirely but dodge is almost as good, drains reactions, and protects you during the rest of the round.

Good solution for a Strength-based martial character who is facing a foe that's Doorway Dodging... just shove them back, or grapple them and pull them out of the doorway. Dodge doesn't give them advantage on Dexterity based Ability Checks, only Saving Throws. If you are a raging barbarian, chances are you'll easily grab that enemy and drag them out of the doorway, or even shove them forward with your movement if you DM allows that. Likewise, look out for this if a DM attempts it against you. Probably unlikely, but it could happen. Edit: This also works fine on any character, so long as you take proficiency/expertise as needed in Athletics. A rogue can be just as good at grappling as a raging barbarian, if they build for it.

Pedantic correction, but in <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="93">1:33</a> you cannot use “extra attack” in a reaction. “Multiattack” is an action exclusively to NPC creatures such as bears, bandit captains, etc.

Tabaxi are amazing at giving movement options in situations like these. If you're 35ft away, you can get in range for a polearm attack, then get out of enemy move + melee range again with no dash action required. My favourite tabaxi combo is ranger and zephyr strike. Zephyr stops opportunity attacks, so you can sprint into the enemy backline, hit their caster with a boosted melee attack, and gain another 30ft movement speed to make your escape. Definitely not optimal, but it's fun as hell.

I have to argue that the shove attack is actually really viable for combat when knocking them prone It only takes one attack action and gives you advantage on the rest of your attack actions. It's even better if you have the shield master feat. Not only that but it gives your enemy disadvantage on attack rolls and makes them less able to run away. You can knock an enemy prone attack , and run away to give your allie spellcasters the chance to use AOE dmg spells like fireball . Sword and board with shield master is an amazing combo

Surprised you didn’t mention shoving prone and grappling. The enemy is prone with 0 movement until they break grapple, at least for goons or when you have expertise. It’s dodge and advantage for you and the team

Doorway dodging can be countered with forced movement using spells or a grappler. It is indeed very fun to see a DM uno-reverse our tactics!

Yes, preach the truth about Javelins! If your DM is especially cheap you can even use Darts since they're ranged weapons with the Finesse property, so you can use DEX or STR as you choose. If only 5e had a Thrown Weapon-based Sharpshooter (SS's first bullet point only works on attack rolls with ranged weapons, which melee weapons with the Thrown property are not) to ignore disadvantage outside of that measly 30ft range, or double both ranges, would be amazingly viable for STR martials. Even spears with 20/60 range would be a decent ranged option at 40/120, let alone javelins if they were bumped up to 60/240. Really the Martials have two jobs: protect the people with fewer hit points, use the terrain effectively. Everything else is roleplay. Jumping in front of the Bugbears harassing your mages, and getting KO'd and killed, if they can Revivify you or otherwise avoid a TPK it was worth it. If there's a lava pool nearby, or a bottomless pit, or hell even a Cloud of Daggers spell, don't wait for your DM to send their bruiser in to Shove your entire party into 10d10 damage at the start of your turn. Do it first for way more damage, if not an instant-kill! When compared to one or two hits from a 1d8+2+STR longsword, the risk is the same (missing the attack) but the reward is way better (extra damage/removing an enemy from the fight entirely) If a melee character finds a situation where they can effectively have an upcasted Inflict Wounds and not have to spend a spell slot for it, take it, and it'll flex your creative muscles. Casters, see if you can't Shatter someone off a cliff by doing damage to the ground under him, dropping him off the side Avatar Kyoshi-style.

Grapple Grapple Grapple always Grapple never stop grappling, Grapple main action Grapple second attack Grapple bonus action, Grapple item interaction, Grapple free action.

A dodger might have to deal with being grappled, since dodge states ‘ You lose this benefit if you are incapacitated or if your speed drops to 0’ and that happens with a grapple. Also two doorway dodgers facing off is possible in which case you can grapple the other guy one turn then dodge from then on for instance

Another super underrated tactic: Grappling your enemy. This has a bunch of advantages. The grappled target has a movement of zero, you can drag them around at half speed, and you now occupy the same square. That last feature is especially useful since it means that your grappled target can no longer hit you with AoE effects without hitting themselves as well. Cool GMs may even let you interrupt somatic or even verbal spellcasting

Doorway dodging is broken based on the exact topography of the room you're in and the one the defender(-s) are in (divination spells are very helpful for identifying the room structure behind). Usually, you should take cover from ranged attacker on the other side of the door and use forced movement to pull the doorway dodger inside so they can be isolated and you can get in. Otherwise, the doorway dodger is now wide open to the focus attacked. Command is perhaps the most reliable and economic way to move a doorway dodger out of position. Knowing the map may also reveal ways how you can circumvent the chokepoint, especially if you have particularly useful movement abilities.

This really helped me as a new player. Playing a barbarian felt very dull. Thank you 🙏

Optimise melee by staying out of it as long as possible

One day before the first session of my friend's campaign, thank you Kobold!

I will definitely use these tips as both a DM and a lover of melee builds. ^^

I love the fact that prone halves movement speed essentially. I made a rogue bar Ian that could zone enemies by action shoving then bonus action dashing or disengaging. Better yet. Shove one enemy grapple another and dash to make good distance. Then the enemies are very confused

Fantastic stuff man

another thing I don't see a lot of people mention is that if you a martial class and you see a mage? GRAB THEM FIRST and be sure to specify the arms. Quite a few spells require a somatic component, aka they have to a make a gesture with their hands, while it's up to the DM the mage will probably have to make a strength save or check to force the somatic component out. Another thing is Mages will rarely break out of your grapple and will usually have to burn a spell slot to get away from you which is burning up their spells slots. Sure it's a 2nd level... until they run out, will they burn a 3rd or 4th level just to get away from you? Of course, if the DM allows it, you can always grapple their mouth shut...

"If you doorway dodge there, your DM and the other players are going to be surprised because you're thinking." Damn :(

Using Shield Master to shove prone is a lot of fun, though, especially when it's an enemy that is trying to escape!

One thing worth mentioning is that spellcasters basically don't have opertunity attacks and have far weaker prepared actions due to needing concentration and gambling spell slots in order to ready a spell, making cover and doors extremely useful if you're a martial going up against a caster.

I recently introduced a small set of house rules on my table to make positioning more important. Essentially, flanking from the sides becomes important and backstabbing becomes deadly, but you can stop opponents from just walking around you. It is quite intuitive but forces people to position with care

Just joined a new campaign with a full party of casters and and half-casters. I'm playing a barbarian/rogue because of that, so this couldn't have come out at a better time. Thank you mister kobold.

I like to ready an action in times when I suspect combat will happen. Makes total sense when deep in enemy territory. In a game where the side that takes the most turns in action economy usually wins, being able to attack or react before combat starts can make a difference

I have no idea how I never thought about defaulting to the dodge action

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="557">9:17</a> Dm: barbarian it is you turn Barbarian: I rage and move the wood over so it blocks the door

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="131">2:11</a> I could just about hear Piccolo from DBZ Abridged giving this same talk to Gohan.

I love that Kobold is here giving a basic tutorial on how to play because it noticeable other DM's didn't teach this from my own experiences... Since I had players question why as a Minotaur fighter I was a using a Pike and Javelins when "I would do better with a Greataxe." Then I had to tell them at level 4 I can get the piercer feat with affects my pike, my javes and my horns so now I have short, mid and long range covered.

You speak of dms doorwaydodging, actually this points me to one of the most important dm tools to handle optimized players: intelligent opposition. The oposition, atleast its leadership and midleadership shoukd be intelligent, crafty and competent. They should learn from what the players are doing. Make it part of the story: make some enemy run away or have bystanders that can observe, have the pcs come across correspondance between levels of leadership in the opposition describing the pcs ractics and how effective they are, then later on hear rumors or evidence of new troops being obtained by the enemy to coubter this. E.G: the players use cheesegrating (spikegrowth+forced movement) after the 3rd encounter they do this, have the pcs come across a letter where a luitennant complains about these dangerous adventurers and their deadly tactics, then next session hear rumors of how the bbeg has hired the araacockra legion (flying enemies counter cheesegrating)

Hee hee hee, this is an interesting vid as my plans are usually "run in and hit a bunch". I'mma melee focused player, I LOVE playing the Melee DPS and Tank, but these are some good tactics. I'm currently playing a Tortle Barbarian Artificer with an AC of 22 thanks to DM Ruling of Natrual AC adding Constitution, and some Magical tinkering giving me a modified "Bracers of Defense". My main thing is that my party consists of a lot of ranged focused squishies. Me and a Paladin are the only Melee people out of 7 characters. Our job is to hold the line, keeping them backed up and away from the squishies. I've done that with my Maul and Sentinal, able to crush foes relatively quickly in a single round, and when htey try to retreat to get away from me, I knock their legs out. Javelins have been a life saver for me when I'm not reaching my foe or they're out of reach. Spells have helped too but I'm very limited since I just started going into Artificer. Once I get to Artillerist, it'll make range foes MUCH easier

That's why I love the swashbuckler rogue

My only fear of not just running to the enemies in melee as a player that loves tanking is that the enemies may just ignore you or spread their numbers out rather than focus on you, which they would if the rest of your party is much further away from you A lot of tank builds suffer from enemies just ignoring you and building distance with your team while threatening opportunity attacks is a great way to encourage them attacking you instead

Dig the video but I was surprised there wasn't more discussion of grapple, since we are talking specifically about strategizing for STR-based melee characters. It is not always an efficient move but it is one of the few ways that a martial (who probably would prefer to tank anyway) can lockdown or control the aggro of a creature.

Counter to doorway dodging: Attempt to shove the creature who's blocking the door prone. It will still be "doging" but since its a skill contest it won't have advantage. If you knock it prone you'll have advantage to beat it on the ground, negating the dodge and you can also step over it. In short: shove the creature who is doorway dodging. Always shove something that is dodging.

Great video thanks kobold

Nice video! When the DM doorway dodges, just grapple the creature and drag them out of the door. No longer blocked! Don't do this in a tunnel though if you have a caster. Let them line attack with a spell.

you tackle doorway dodging by using "shape stone" and create a larger door on (possibly a flanking) wall or you just find a way to break the wall and create more space for the enemy to care about, or ,even better, you throw your barbarian in the midst of the fight charging and jumping on the doorway dodger while raging and having a caster support him with advantage.

Grapple the doorway dodger :3 advantage and disadvantage cancel out! You can also shove, I believe that’s an athletics check? Not certain.

I actually have been trying to build an echo knight dragon-themed tiefling for a few days now, and while I'm still struggling for a backstory, I started making the character in order to spice up melee combat with my favorite subclass. Dodging in perticular is one thing I wanted to do more so I added a bit of a cautious dirty fighting personality to her. Combined with her starting weapons being a longbow, halberd, and a pair of fists and I think she'll be pretty fun when I get to play her.

I'm no strategist in tabletop because I'm trying to have stupid fun but this channel has given me good tactics for when I play Solasta

This is really entertaining to watch after some time in Baldur's Gate 3, knowing a lot of people probably discovered how useful flexibility and versatility on a martial really is. Even though there are a lot of enemies with range.

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="560">9:20</a> you give the enemy disadvantage, with web for example (you love it), stunning strike with a monk, blocking they're vision, etc

Lol, that dragon is hilarious.

Lol I had a DM try and doorway Dodge as well as abuse cover, nothing like a non Dex saving throw spell to ruin that. My favorite was where he had archers shooting from an arrow slit. Casting shatter there worked wonderfully.

Guess it should be noted that you're not technically allowed to draw more than one weapon per turn since there's only one Free action, so the Extra Attack javelin opener requires you to start with one in your hand already.

Player: I will dogde the door NPC: it is shove time!

I watch optimization content because I find it fascinating.

Funny thing is I can use these tactics with theater of the mind- just by using math! Ranges can be specific when needed. Compare your actions out of combat and when you’ve got an enemy with comparable maneuverability to what you trained for, you don’t even have to do the math. You did it already!

Good points

Been doing a lot of fun combat stuff in Pathfinder using this similar philosophy. You can really stretch a lot out of a round in both 5e and Pathfinder if you're smart and creative

Good luck with playing with your friends bagpipes!

"Why else would you watch optimization content?" Because I love the dulcet tone of bagpipes and kobolds, of course!

1st lesson, do not move in. Okay. I'm listening.

Actually in my last session shove prone was super optimal. We were lv2 party of 4 martials fighting three creatures i was able to shove one down and action surge grapple it, causing it to have disadvantage or burn it's action to break the grapple in that time we were able to gang up on the other orc then dispatch the third. Very effective.

Funny thing is starter Aragorn build is actually a good starter build. A lot of fantasy builds are. Medium armor long bow (actually a recurve but same same) with long sword secondary dagger tertiary with an attuned spell storing accessory that auto casts revivify once.

"Reject swords, return to cutlery." -The Gourmêt. (a player I DM)

DM, doorway doges Wizard, casts earth tremor

I have a monk variant of many enemies for that first kiting situation. Better speed to catch them off guard and then stunning strike. Good strategy is good, but being able to improvise when things go super badly is even better.

DM: * has npc doorway dodge * Barbarian: I would like to dodge the doorway. DM: ...? Barbarian: * crashes through the wall next to it *

Doorway/Stair actions: Have your caster, or anyone with Magic Initiate cast Grease. I love this spell on stairs going up. Your melee character with a reach weapon keeps them all in the area and everyone just waits for the guy at the top to knock everyone else down the stairs.

True story: In our game tonight I failed a save and was forced to just move forward and attack and it was the most uncomfortable thing ever as a melee. Another point for the first open field example, if you move forward instead of waiting for them to come to you, the bandits will immediately collapse on you. You'll be surrounded and unable to move and the rest will head to your allies. You are no longer the front line, you are now a liability.

My battlemaster fighter always carries three weapons a glaive,long sword and a crossbow a weapon for every situation.

Good ideas. My next run I'll make the enemy have to work to me instead of the other way around

“[MELEE MARTIAL, you’re not the best at doorway dodging]” It hursts… but it’s true 😔

The best way to wait for your enemy to dash into melee range is to cast a spell..Clerics can cast bless/spirit guardians, paladins can casts heroism/bless/aid or throw a javelin and cast shield of faith, the hexblade can cast darkness, etc..

Wonder what Kobold and Gator's thoughts are on the 3 action system of Pathfinder 2nd Edition... Or even Pathfinder 2nd Edition in general. Might be a good watch for the future once I get back into playing it.

There actually is a highly effective way to use shove that I never see ANYONE try. You can’t get up from the prone position if you have less than half your movement remaining. So if you’re grappled while you’re prone, you cannot get back up until you break the grapple. Which means you have disadvantage on pretty much everything, including the athletics check to break the grapple, while everything but ranged attacks has advantage against you while you’re unable to do pretty much anything about it. Pretty much every martial class in the game has extra attack and both a grapple and a shove only takes up ONE of these attacks. So you can potentially grapple and enemy and then shove them prone in ONE TURN. Costing you only one round of attacks (assuming you’re not a fighter with 3-4 attacks) and your off hand while imposing incredibly significant disadvantages on your opponent.

I have a Bugbear Barbarian that has a +4 in Strength and Dexterity (currently 4th level) that is a beast in melee and ranged combat. I use a pike so I basically have 15 foot melee, and grabbed Tasha's Piercer feat at 4th level so I can reroll low damage once a turn and add dice whenever I crit. This feat also translates well into my longbow attacks. Also, my high Dex and ranged weapons make it very easy for me to activate my bugbear's surprise attack damage for even higher damage. My Totem subclass gave me the bear of near invincibility and I'm looking to snag the Eagle next so I can really become an eagle eyed archer. I've considered multi-classing, but I'm afraid that my DM would not tolerate me becoming deadlier than I already am. Despite being kinda OP, he has done a good job not being the center of attention for the group or make combat too trivial. Our group even learned to utilize my bugbear's boogieman tactics to wipe out as many weaklings as we can so we can fight the big bads with full strength. DM even allowed me to have a pet wolf so that I have something else to do during my turn because those turns were too short. This also led the DM to be a bit more confident at throwing hordes of tougher enemies at us because we can clearly take care of them without needing a short or long rest after every fight. Over all, we have been having a ton of fun.

Shoving prone can be optimal if combined with a feature that sets a creature's speed to zero but doesn't give them disadvantage on their attack rolls, such as being grappled or because it can give them disadvantage on outgoing attacks. Or advantage on attacks against them for multiple turns

Any advice on optimizing specifically for dual wielders, sword and board (not spear PAM), or unarmed brawlers (monks or not)? Cause all melee optimization seems to be focused on GWM/PAM (just like tabletopbuilds would do), but you can't just 'flavor is free' empty hands, two separate weapons or a suddenly throwable sword. Sometimes it feels like playing at a mid-high/high optimization table makes it unfeasible to play certain melee archetypes than don't just bonk with a big or long weapon.

Also if you have a mount your mount can disengage for you. This is why a quarterstaff is one of the best weapons for paladin since they don't benefit as much from great weapon master and have the find steed spell, which gives you a mount that can disengage for you.

Coffee with fennel,rutabaga,vanilla bean and cream.

If the monster goes into some sort of invincibility rage where it has 1 hit point but can't take any more damage and you have guards surrounding it you can use their actions to shove the monster or even give each-other advantage on shoving it if you also have one unit that's stronger than the others.

In the case of threatening melee monsters that will do anything to rush your casters, shoving them prone to slow them down can be the move. Casters can still be effective against a prone opponent via spells that force a saving throw rather than an attack. It's your ally archers and Warlocks that might have a problem, but even they can focus on another target in the meantime. Grappling is better, but you need a free hand, and I'm assuming your example is a sword and board fighter. Against melee flyers, or even ranged ones if your have a climbing speed and favorable terrain, readying a shove or jumping at them and shoving can be a great way to shut them down. Against huge+ creatures you can't shove and they can just go through you, you can use the Climbing onto a Bigger Creature optional rule from the DMG to at least move with them when they move, and get advantage on your attacks against them.

The shove action is why I *adore* the telekinetic feat. Flying enemy? Get grounded.

i wanna see more martials tying rope to their throwable weapons and keeping hold of the other side. this makes some easy difficult terraign that can recharge by picking it up. plus you could use it as a teather to pull enemies closer. also dont forget casting enlarged/reduce on ally martials to make them bigger and because of weapon size rules that increases their damage.

"like your spiderman" i fucking wish, Spiderman is impossible to do justice to RAW.

now I miss my 3.5 barbarian pining enemies to tree with javelins while raging.

Move+Dodge may be less good if closing onto smart enemies, who may focus the squishy backline instead, or simply back of themselves.

This is a great video. My only comment is that I heard SKIMITAR.

about making target prone its also good idea to do that if enemy is trying to stay up... if enemy creature is ending its turn standing up that means he wants to be up and not prone(Or dm is not thinking :D ) he gets disadvantage at attacking too so if you push him prone and then grapple him on ground you can disable a heavy damage dealing enemy as a tank for long time while party is clearing other threats. Creature attacking with disadvantage miss more than hit and this gives you security. Also if rogue switch to dagger from bow he can one shot the target easly with an easy crit (around %9 chance) or just double tap with reaction attack from a haste or commanding strike from you if you are a battlemaster. yes ranged dps is better but thats because flying enemies are a thing and if you fail to kill the enemy its dangerious, prone target dies almost allways if dps switches to melee for that. Better so if you are crossbow expert you don't even need to swap weapons you can just shoot point blank with any ranged weapon including cantrips as wizard yes that works you don't get disadvantage. Combining this with sharpshooter you can one shot prone targets easly from point blank range if barbarian shoved them. ALLWAYS SHOVE THE BIG DRAGON THAT IS FLYING! Prone will make them fall to ground! After that its a bloodbath. I am sure for a tank build grappling and shoving is very important! You are not expected to deal dmg so helping others deal more damage or forcing enemies to deal less dmg or even better making them attack you to be free is amazing!

Strength with an Int dump checks out.

"Barbarian took the smart move" okay

Doorway dodging is not that huge an issue when the DM does it because fe monsters are proficient in Athletics or Acrobatics, plus a few spells/abilities require saving throws as opposed to skill contests (like the awesome Telekinetic feat). Same reason why a caster can doorway dodge as long as they're proficient in Acrobatics.

I like your voice! It's really nice

had a monk throw the same cultist off of the same balcony 3 times in one fight in tyranny of dragons. he was out of ki points so he could only attack once each turn and it only did 1d4+3 damage so the 3d6 damage from falling was higher than his unarmed attack or even his shortsword. sometimes shoving is very effective

I once doorway dodged while the bard cast grease so that the enemies kept slipping and falling. The DM was... unimpressed as my low HP high AC war cleric repeatedly dodged while waiting for the rest of my party to catch up and actually help so that I didn't die lol.

I've now upgraded my Armorer Artificer watching this. Having a returning javelin that also is a magical weapon is something I'd seriously want to talk to my DM about: Lightning returning javelin for the win!!

"Your DM and the other players will be surprised because you're thinking". Ouch.

I love this clip because it is literally using common sense inside roling

Dastardly DM doorway dodging? Damn, Doom that Dangerous Disparity by grappling and Dragging the enemy inside!

To deal with a Doorway Dodger, anyone can attempt to either Overrun (opposed Athletics) or Tumble (opposed Acrobatics) as a Bonus Action to get past them (DMG pg 272). Though in this instance, the "dealing with" is more "ignoring the tank to get at the other PCs they're trying to protect".

Kobold. Not sure if you or gator would be interested, but I'd love to hear your opinion on bless vs faire fire. 2 super strong spells that I've been struggling to understand which one is better and when.