Guys take it from me who owns a Mooney, I think y'all will be ok. If Vans doesn't make it some investor will come in a buy the company. I think parts will still be available as the fleet is too large. At the end of the day the most important thing is who Melissa is holding in her arms. Stay positive.
It's not a matter of them surviving. They easily will. The problem is they sold a bunch of crap parts and now they are screwing over all their customers.
I'm in a similar situation. I've ordered all kits, engine and prop for my -14A. I think the odds of Vans folding are 5% at best (for too many reasons to list here). This news will slow down our builds and may cost us a little more but we will finish our planes! Hang in there!
People keep talking about scratch building, and how all you need to do to finish your RV-14 is start making your own parts from raw materials. The problem is that THERE ARE NO PLANS, only a construction manual, so there are no dimensions or other details that are needed to make these parts. Still trying to stay positive...
Gotta say this news made my heart hurt. Van's Aircraft made airplane ownership possible for me. I built and flew the first RV8 in the state of New Mexico. It's still out there, different paint, upgraded panel, but MY name is on the data plate and always will be. It's something that Richard Van Grunsven made possible for me to give to myself, my family and now several owners since me. I cannot understate my respect for Van. He greeted me once personally at the parts desk and we chatted like we'd known each other for years and we only just met. He's a world-class gentleman, an old school engineer absolutely on par with the likes of Kelly Johnson, Curtis Pitts, the Wrights and so many other masters of aeronautical design. Van's will survive and it will likely be painful for a while but they will survive.
I wish you the best. I was one of the very last Glasair kits to ship out nearly complete. Many after me just got a letter saying no kit, and a monthly payment to their bank. I suspect Van's will be back, or someone will buy them and get it rolling again. It is a great selling kit and has a good future.
This is an old problem. Going all the way back to the infamous BD-5 fiasco. I saw this with Glasair. It ended up being sold off, and now parts are available again. But someone usually steps in to sell parts. That can take years though. It's always a risk with a kit. Says a lot about scratch built planes, they never have to worry about some kit company going belly up. Glasair got sold off, but the Glastar/Sportsman survived in the New Glasair company. But that took a while. I suspect something like a "New Van's" may spring up, but who owns and runs it is a question. Depends on what the bankruptcy judge does. When Glasair filed for protection, I had smelled that coming, and bought all the parts I thought I'd ever need. You can always fabricate the missing parts yourself. Since technically you are the manufacturer. Not Van's. Don't get the mindset that it's unbuildable. There are companies who make spring gears. The Pitts guys and others have bought those for years. You can have an engine mount welded up. Someone will step up and offer those. There are places that make blown canopies. I'd search that out. Plus the subcontractors who made those parts for Van's may be able to sell direct now since Van's is out of the picture. I'd say Van's is gone. If it comes back, it will under new ownership. Van is old, he's probably ready to retire anyway.
As an LAME who has worked structures for the last decade this should be the top comment, there is not a single piece of sheet metal I couldn't fabricate on this aircraft, provided I can get my hands on the drawings. There are thousands of guys out there just like me who are in the industry and passionate about this sort of stuff, at the end of the day these are homebuilt aircraft, you absolutely can build them at home, as always leveraging a bit of help from the friends you have and friends you are yet to make along the way.
It is an all-aluminum simple airplane. At worst case, you can manufacture any parts you need. That will not be easy but will still result in your existing project not being a total loss.
If Van's wants to stay in the game, they'll find a way, and I'm positive that they want to stay in the game. 11,000+ COMPLETED kits WORLDWIDE flying. What is the ratio of kits sold to kits completed? 50:50? 80:20? 95:5? Yeah, Van's is a player. And, their models are in a league of their own. I agree with those opining that shedding down their offerings to the -10, -12, and -14 may be a way of "shrinking to profitability." We'll see. Quick-build goes to Build-Assist, the builder taking on the 51% Rule considerations. It's a holding pattern for now, folks. Calculate your bingo fuel and alternate plans to the level of your comfort. That's the only control we have control over at this time. My skin in the game: RV-14 Tail/Empennage Kit: Build in progress, no laser-cut parts. RV14 Wing Kit: Not started, 22 laser-cut parts, ALL laser-cut parts to be replaced - either by Van's, or on my dime.
The situation is tough all around. Appreciate, while you have a huge investment, you are staying positive. We all need Vans viable and in operation for decades to come. I’m hoping Vans will communicate frequently as they build the way forward. The infrequent messages over the last few months just fuels rampant speculation which we don’t need right now. Hang in there!
Start by tracing and documenting parts, Builders get together and do this, Eventually, all parts will be documented to be able to replace parts and finish kits
You'll all be fine. Advanced manufacturing is all about having an accurate BOM (Bill of Materials) or parts list and using simple maths to manage that process and know exactly how much each component is worth. The Vans designs are well engineered and well respected so that in itself is their major asset. I assume COVID has affected the kit plane marketplace and created the opportunity to scale up and expand the production quantities. I'm confident that Vans will engage knowledgeable people to help identify the key production problems and create improvements within the next 6 months.
The aircraft industry is such a difficult industry to be successful in. And Vans being the 'most' successful experimental company proves it. The costs are just too high (many times because of the govt) and not enough people can afford to buy the product.
I've owned and built Vans aircraft since 1997. Two major observations #1 aviation will go on with or without Vans. #2 Vans "change" is almost certainly for the better, they haven't been the company they were for a long time. Finally.. there's a huge ecosystem around homebuilding, your kit will get finished with or without Vans parts
Seeing that announcement has really made my heart sink. I'm in the planning stages for my build and I may never get a chance to build one. My friend is building a -9 that he may never be able to get the fuse/finish for. It's torture.
I think this bad situation that Van's is in now snuck up on them rather quickley. Remember that Van's has multiple years of R&D and design costs developing the RV-15. I'm sure that they are going to want to see their investment in this new airplane succeed. Ken ... I'm in your camp; I believe Van's will get through this dark period, albeit there will most certainly be some major changes at Van's. It's not all bad news ... Congratulations on your new baby!
Keep your “positive” attitude. I agree with a lot of your commenters. Van’s kits/parts in time will continue. I’m fairly sure Van’s will file bankruptcy and close. I am also fairly sure someone will buy the rights to Van’s and reopen operations. Yes this will take time. But it looks like you have more time added to your build due to your new little family member(congratulations). Give it some time. I think Van’s will be sorted out one way or another.
The Vans community is HUGE! Someone has these parts in the shelf. Reverse engineering wouldn’t be that tough. Landing gear and engine mounts. Easy fab work when you just have to duplicate Does Vans do the blow mold in house? Some guy is in his garage shop planning to provide these parts.
Without a finish kit it won't be easy. Considering the engine and the mount, I installed a ULPower 520iS in my RV-7 and I know ULPower supplies an Engine mount for the RV-7. Probably they will also be able to deliver an RV-14 engine mount (for the ULPower 520iS. This does NOT solve the other parts of the Finish kit though.
How sad this is happening to Van's and the customers. Generally corporate financials are closely watched, but it appears that they were not closely watching, and taking action for adjustments in pricing. Van's aircraft grew from a small company and today its a big airplane company and it takes talent and skills to manage financing, product lines, and supply. This is a truthful notice by the owner that additional management experts are needed going forward. Today's financial climate is very tough especially for lenders that do not fully understand your industry and products to make lending possible. If Van's was a very small company I would consider this might be the end for the company, but with over 10,000 aircraft built, and a very strong customer base I fully expect they will survive. There will be fewer models offered that will help streamline the manufacture and inventory of parts, and a major price changes. I'm expecting they will resolve the problem, and I will be able to build a RV-15.
You guys can finish it without Vans. I'm sure they don't make the plexiglass canopy, just need to find out who molds it for them. The engine mount can be built in place, tack welded and then you can take it to a professional welder to finish it Aircraft Spruce sell the dynafocal ring, that is the tough part. Wheel covers and stuff like that can be bought on aircraft spruce. The cowl is the toughest part. Might be able to buy another Lycoming cowling and fit it to the RV. It appears you folks paid for it already. Sorry that sucks. Hope they pull out. Im not currently waiting for anything but I wanted to order my fast build wings.
I think they will end up cutting the line down to the 10, 12, and 14, and probably cancel the 15. Not sure quick build will survive either, it has opened them up to a lot of liability first through primer situation and now in laser cut parts in QB.
I do hope they keep the 8 it is what I'm not building due to all the delays and laser cut part. Look up the history of the CEO that is coming in, if they continue with "quick build" it will be in the form of "build assist" where the customer assumes all the liability and the risk by being on site. Their risk profile with the current QB are just too high and have burned them twice.
@@jvtaylor3 Im thinking something similar, offshoring these kits to the Phillipines was a huge mistake and it shocks me that whoever works quality in this company allowed it to happen.
Per Van's website: ..." Stated simply: without realizing it, we were selling kits below our cost." I would guess some options are: Reduce product offerings, increase prices substantially, cut staff, increase lead times substantially, no refunds, billionaire buyout and re-organization. Cash flow problems and now they have to deal with loads of bad parts. Toss in the coming legal bills. Things are not looking good. Good chance for bankruptcy filing. Hard to sell stuff when you can't pay your vendors supplying you. They will cut you off. Only payment in full and in advance will then be the terms. Not workable when you don't have the cash.
I feel for all current builders and I respect the hell out of Vans. Unfortunately, bankruptcy is a virtual certainty to afford the company the time necessary to restructure their debt and assess their operations. Shipping new parts is the lowest priority for the company now. Which also presents a unique and temporary opportunity for current builders to sell their parts at higher than historical market value. Current builders are afraid of part availability, and fear creates a tremendous opportunity for sellers to make $.
I expect ... Bankruptcy reorganization so they can cancel all pre-order at the old price and hold off lenders in the short term Kits price to go up 35%. No more off shore quick build. They will make good to all of their customers.
People always say that. But making our own Canopy, Engine Mount and Landing gear is huge leap from assembling a Kit. Even if we did try and make our own first Engine Mount, trusting it would be very hard.
Will be interesting to see if the insurance companies cover planes potentially impacted. Also would think this will have a impact on resale value. How would a buyer know if inferior parts were included in the build?
This comment keeps coming up, but what example in aviation insurance do you base this on? I’ve never seen an insurance company look at issues with an airframe construction as a variable. If a specific type starts falling out of the sky often then yes. But that isn’t going to happen here.
@@PalmForgebut give me one example or a specific aircraft type that insurance companies charge more for based on a serial number range or a specific issue that applies to some tail numbers but not others? I know insurance charges more for retract and high performance, but I’ve never seen an insurance company say, oh you have that specific type so you get charged more.
IMHO wrt the extra shipping costs incurred with pre builts (which made profit here 0 or even negative) was bad management. The primer & laser story might be less so.
Prices should have gone up a lot early... 18 months ago, a 10-20% increase would most likely have avoided all of this. And I think most builders would have not had a big problem with it.
We are doing our best to remain optimistic, but not knowing when or if our Finish kit will come is a real struggle for us. We will most likely come to a complete halt in our build pretty soon if we don't have the finish kit. And we will have an engine in a box that we can't do anything with. That is a lot of money tied up that makes it frustrating.
I think that somebody's going to come in and buy it. When that happens, you better have a kit, because they're probably going to double, like gasoline. Gasoline is at the bottom of the supply chain.
Like many of these comments have said I doubt they will fold just as many airlines have and looking at the crazy amount of vans that come to osh every year there’s no way they close out
It really does look like Vans will be sticking around and hopefully very strong once the dust settles. Kits are starting to ship, and I have made and received a couple parts orders since the Chapter 11 filing. So a lot of things seem to be getting back to normal. Now... We just need to get the date that our Finish Kit will be ready. That is the thing we need the most.
As a total outsider to the business, I suspect that if Van's were to really go under, someone in the aftermarket would probably, eventually though, start supplying parts to finish out builds. (As was referred to about the final 1/4 of the video) But that might be both very slow and very expensive, even versus what's already been happening. And also as an outsider, this is a bit slow-motion nerve-wracking to see. I'd hoped to start on a -12is or maybe a -7 or -9 someday, hopefully in the next five-ish years. We'll see if that can even happen, I guess.
Vans aircraft has everything to keep going. All of the manufacturing equipment and processes. The worst case IMHO, someone comes in a buys the company and all the goods. Prices will go up, but parts will keep coming. What I think will happen. Vans will get an investor, make some major changes. They will get back to basics and keep the popular kits going. Rv-15 will be delayed for 5 plus years. The Rv 10, 12, 14 and probably 8 will keep going.
Don’t be naive about “too important to fail”. In 2008 AIG was “too big to fail”. The situations are vastly different, however AIG at the time was the largest municipal bond holder in the world. Vans is an airplane company not involved in any defense sector or “vital” infra structure. They will probability be ok, but don’t be naive.
I don't think they are "Too Big to Fail" in terms of they need a bail out. That would be crazy. I do feel it is in General Aviation's best interest if Vans Aircraft is able to continue strong. There are more Vans Aircraft completed and entering into the GA Market than any other Certified GA Manufacturer. This is helping keep the cost of flying low. Without vans we would have to step up our purchase price quite a bit to do the same kind of flying we can do with vans.
@@N14VEHelping keep the cost of flying low? LOL, GA needs more accountants. Nobody seems to factor-in financing charges and reserves correctly. Do this, and you will quickly realize that $300-$500/hr is what it costs to keep a well maintained single piston in operation. Make friends with someone who owns a good plane and offer them $200/hr to share it with you. I just saved you $250k.
Its not a product or economic issue. Its just a cash issue. All Vans needs is cash to get caught up. Anyone who has enough cash can fix this issue. The price will go up some but people will buy Vans products forever. This isn't a big deal. Someone will invest or purchase Vans. Either way they aren't going away
Just met a retired couple at my local FBO. They are on the hanger waiting list. They originally planned to build an RV12. They were in Oregon last October visiting the Van’s factory, took a demo ride then placed a $5,000 deposit on a kit. One week later after they got home they got the extortion letter from Vans. Since the deposit was done on an American Express card, they filed a claim with Amex and walked away. I hope the Vans family files for bankruptcy and someone else takes over. No integrity.
Although we certainly understand how frustrating this whole thing as been. But we disagree with the No Integrity claim. Vans Aircraft has 50+ years of being very High Integrity. In the last couple of years they have gone through some hard times and made some pretty big mistakes that they shouldn't have. But they have never treated us without integrity. They have delivered on every promise since the Chapter 11 Filing they have made to us. Finish Kit Arrived, Back Ordered Parts have arrived, even our Laser Cut Parts arrived. If some mega Corp like Textron were to take over for the Vans Family, it would be a lot worse than it is today. We don't want that!
@@N14VE I respectfully disagree. Offering a contract to a customer, customer agrees and confirms the contract with a deposit. Then ONE week later send a letter saying that the deposit will not only not be refunded but also must accept a plus 30% increase in price or submit a claim in bankruptcy. I will call that many things but certainly not integrity. What would integrity look like in action? Suspending orders until the audit was complete for starters. I could go on. I really feel sorry for the customers who got caught up in this mess and I do wish them the best. I, however, do not have good feelings for the owner of Vans.
Don't you wish they were completely transparent? How many months before they said there was a problem did they know? How long before we were told, did they get with their lawyers and make sure the monies they said they loaned their company, would be returned in full with no loss to them? They raised the prices as they said more money was needed to continue. That may be correct but it was due to their greed and failure. They already were making a good deal of money or they would not have the millions that they loaned themselfs! There was profit already. They only needed the 38% raise to pay for the mistakes they made trying to get more profit by farming parts out. I would like to know when their engineers told them the parts are not a problem. Since they no longer need to replace the parts, why do they still need the increase in price? Just more profit. Remember when people complained about Cessna prices? Cessna got congress to limit their liability to 15 years implying the monies that they already held to pay damages could be moved to cover new aircraft to hold the price down. Did not happen. They said they did not say that and took that money and continued to charge more and more for planes. Many will not agree legitimately, and others will not agree only so that the monies they have spent will go to waste and be lost as aircraft associated with the name will be less valuable. Do as everyone else seems to do, DENY, DENY,DENY.
I'm just thankful we got most of our kits before prices went up. It is just the finish kit that I bet we will end up paying a higher price for,. But I am pretty sure most builders will pay higher prices if that is what it takes. I know some will not and won't build because of it. But hey, prices everywhere go up, it will to at Vans
@@N14VE wonder how much it goes up. I haven’t bought any kits. Think in about locking in those good prices with a down payment before crap hits the fan but I don’t want to do anything rash before they announce what they r going to do.
There are more Vans Aircraft completed each year than Cirrus Aircraft. So this would result in a vastly smaller number of GA Aircraft entering the market every year. Cost of AV Gas, MX, and everything could be impacted. It is my belief that Vans Aircraft (and other kit airplanes) is one of the best tools we have for controlling the insane rising costs of aviation. A RV-10 for $325k vs an SR-22 for $800k+
Ok let me get this straight. Vans, built or subcontracted parts that have shown to have cracking issues. Why was this not caught during the manufacturing process. So to make this right, Vans should replace these parts. This would most likely bankrupt Vans. If they do not the lawsuits will most likely bankrupt the company. Vans is in a no win situation and their only hope is bankruptcy can prevent both situations from happening where the kit owners will be screwed.
Honestly as a Van's Customer I don't feel "Screwed" at all. Inconvenienced by the delays this caused, yes. But Vans has really fixed a lot of the issues they were facing in the last 4-6 weeks and a lot of progress is happening. Kits are being shipped to customers, Parts orders are shipping and arriving quickly. And I am in process of having what LCP I need (very few) added to my next shipment from them free of charge. None of this has left me feeling "Screwed."
Yes it does sting to pay a little more than we were originally quoted/planning on for our Finish kit. But the extra cost really isn't that much. I look at it as: The 1st 3 kits they sold me at under market value. So I got a deal!
They made choices to operate with no little or no cash reserves which was fine when money was cheap, now its not. Combine that with sudden reduction in cash flow from poor manufacturing decisions (and other decisions) and they cannot survive without a lifeline. Nobody will give them that lifeline unless they can show a decisive, verifiable shift in how they will handle financials moving forward. Even then, it will not be cheap simply from a borrowing cost standpoint.
My personal opinion is going to be the end of customers trusting manufacturers by depositing any money over 20% of the cost and pay the rest before delivery. The manufacturers should sell the kits as cash and carry. So they should invest the money in at minimum 20 kits complete and have them as COD.
The prices of everything is going higher and higher seems like everyday... This isn't good for anybody going forward... Whether you are a hotrodder or boater and fisherman... I'm a pilot and enjoyed owning and flying my airplane.. the cost of ownership is reaching my limit.. paint jobs running 20,000, overhauls pushing 50,000(for my plane).. unless you are making 150,000 plus a year I see a collapse in general aviation.. I see when I go into an airport customer service is lacking, no smiles and laughter with employees.. I'll take your money now leave... Especially in the last 3 yrs... So everyone is under pressure...
Exactly the way Van's started out - with detailed plans that included the necessary dimensions to fabricate all the necessary parts/components. Out of the models they offer now, I think the RV-3 is the only model that comes with such detailed plans.
What's the point of this video? Just one more to add to the over 100 you made on building an erector set RV-14? All this speculation,conjecture and hand wringing will not add to the completion of your airplane. Use the time for producing videos to handbuild parts and finish the project. Hand build is what it was like in the early RV days!
We have a lot of respect for the people who have done the true Home Built route. One day we might even try something like that. But we knew going into this project we were doing a "Home Assembly" project which is very different than a "Home Built" project. It is not as easy to switch to fabricating your own critical airframe parts like Engine Mount, Canopy, and Landing gear when there are no plans or resources to help you do it.
Vans pushed the experimental 51% rule to the absolute limit, far outside the original concept of building your own aircraft. Now you have people who are only capaple of finishing the assembly of a factory built plane with Ikea style, step by step plans. They are crying in their rivets because they lack the skills to build an airplane without constant hand holding and premade parts. The only thing experimental about Vans planes is the business model.
It doesn’t take the average person five to ten years to build an ikea bed so not sure that the ikea analogy fully works. Have you built one or something that meets your definition of the spirit of home building Mark?
@@jamesroberts7137 maybe your taking me too literally and missing the point. I keep seeing Vans builders thinking the world will end if they can't get supplies from Vans. People built planes for many decades before kits came along but it took some thinking and skill development. These people seem to think if Vans dies their plane won't get finished because they can't buy a cowl or engine mount. Yes, I have built a plane from scratch. Not knocking kit planes, just lamenting the swing away from the can do attitude.
