IMHO this is really only worth it for larger diameter nozzles. 0.6mm nozzles can still achieve very comparable results in quality and can take much better advantage of the higher flow rates. 0.8mm quality will suffer quite a bit, but for things like shelf brackets or other functional prints, this might not matter. I think you maybe focused a little too much on 0.4mm nozzles, so maybe a follow-up with some larger diameter nozzle slicing times and test prints would be nice. Also it would be great to compare this to the drop-in ObXidian nozzle for 0.4mm printing, because I personally think it's a better choice for that use case since it maintains the hardened nozzle, can achieve nearly the same flow rate, and costs a fraction as much. Thanks for taking the time to make the review.
I recently got the obXidian nozzle. I've noticed better looking prints from having a higher flow nozzle even though I'm not getting close to that actual flow rate because I don't print very large prints. Not sure why higher flow would print better when not actually printing at higher flow rates but the proof is in the pudding. Need someone smarter than I am to look into it
@@Bennett_Lab It would be from getting a more consistent and thorough melt for your filament as it's passing through the melt zone. The ObXidian nozzle has the internal CHT-style split chambers that allow way more contact area and therefore better thermal conductivity to your filament. You can expect to see a more glossy finish if you're using a filament that would support that. Also the ObXidian moves the thermistor to the opposite side of the nozzle, so the nozzle may also be getting a few degrees hotter than it would stock.
@@legacyofbobYes, I am going to run some flow tests to see what I can maintain at 210c nozzle. Currently running 220c and 34 volumetric set with no underextrusions. 30 volumetric is the magic number so I hope it can hit it.
The price is holding me back. I really like the fact that you can quickly swap nozzles, so printing a larger object that doesn't require fine detail, can be done with .6 or .8 nozzle. But I don't have multiple printers to benefit even more from the investment. I realize that however easy it is to change out a Bambu Lab hotend, the Revo is way more easy. But paying €300 for a hotend and 2 extra nozzles makes me think a bit harder about the investment...
It's definitely a steep investment. As you pointed out, it's not that difficult to change the default hotend, but it's just inconvenient enough that I don't do it. With the Revo setup I feel that I'll be more likely to slice for bigger or smaller nozzles as the application requires.
Honestly, you save like 30 seconds, maybe, turning out 2 screws and then putting them back in. Most of the time is waiting for it to cool which you will do with the Revo. The bigger issue is their build quality and CS. I received one with the connections under the heat shrink not even connected. They asked me to solder them myself. Others get miss aligned mounting holes or just none at all. For $130 these are just unacceptable issues and the lack of support from their CS is an added insult. Save your money.
I fully expect the X2C (or whatever they call it) to adopt a lot of the A1 advancements, such as moving the filament select to the head and the hot-swap nozzles.
Do those last tests with a .6mm nozzle and the accompanying profiles. The accelerations and linear speeds are dramatically decreased while still maintaining massive flow rates, you longer hit those other physical walls.
Totally agree with lowering the temp by 10C. I did and I am now getting the same performance as before. For those wondering, Revo is an ecosystem which I could use the same nozzle with any printer brand with a Revo. So, the main point is the ease of swapping nozzles.
There are revo diamondback nozzles :) Can't link, cause RU-vid, but if you google them, they exist. Now, it costs $180 for a single one, so up to you if you think it's worth that...
I have had the E3D Bambu nozzle for a week now and I am running 30 volumetric because I only saw print quality decline as speed ramped up to meet the flow. I also saw no time savings. There is barely time savings compared to stock 0.4mm with Bambu filament. I am seeing maybe 15% faster in overall print times. Which means I can up the quality levels and finish a 0.16 layer in the time of a stock 0.20 layer height. I also increased my line width to 0.5mm and it's been working well. My recommendation is to avoid the cheap CHT nozzle. I had so many issues I stopped using it after 2 days.
This happened to me just yesterday and yesterday. With HS TZ2.0 I went back to the original because they didn't work well for me, material came off, a lot of threads and so on. I think I will buy a Revo later, but only for the quick change issue. While it is better to buy the original 0.6 and have the 2 0.4 that the standard machines come with.
Personally I only very rarely print big objects, so the quick change ability is the seller for me. Plus I'm worried that the plugs they use for connecting the hotend and fan to the circuit board aren't designed for hundreds of potential changeouts - most circuit board plugs are pretty fragile and can only handle this maybe a few dozen times before failing. Also, the temperature analysis was super helpful! I couldn't for the life of me figure out why my prints were stringing with the new hotend regardless of what retraction settings I used.
Hi, so first of all thank you. I was considering getting the Panda only for speed and you've answered that question so well, thank you for that. Now the only question I have is would I be changing nozzle heads regularly, the answer is no for now. but in the future if it changes then I would consider this. It is exactly for this reason that I came on and you answered it unbiasedly, well done.
I upgraded my E3D Hemera hot ends to Revo nozzles, so the biggest benefit for me to upgrade my Bambu Lab machines is the compatibility. It is tempting.
Oooh and here I was trying to buy the E3D high flow Bambu hotend … I really liked the Revo nozzle swapping on my old Ender3 (converted to BTT/Revo hotend), so I think I’m gonna have to buy this instead (-8
I pre-ordered one too... knew it'd be more expensive, but as I use Revo's elsewhere I reckoned the convenience was worth it. I'm still waiting but nice to see a review.
Has this been approved by Bambu? I am not sure if the extruder board was designed to give more wattage. They just mentioned this in a bambu blog post. E3d's bambuXobsidian nozzle page is missing for me, and I can't buy from the website. Did they have a legal falling out over this Panda Revo?
The motion speed and flow rate of the Bambu Lab P1/X1 printers work quite nicely with the default 0.4mm nozzle diameters. Once you start increasing the flow rate with hotends like the Panda Revo, you also have to increase nozzle diameter, layer thickness, and print width correspondingly. Otherwise, you'll just run into the speed constraints of your motion system. Beyond that, shoriening your print time often comes from effects like printing two walls @ 0.6mm width instead of three walls @ 0.4mm -- and doing that at the same print head speed requires an increased hot end performance...
Max flow rate is proportional to nozzle size. Larger nozzles will flow better. I would have done more testing of it but I only had the 0.4 mm HF on hand. I tested the 0.6 and 0.8 non-HF versions and found that the 0.4 mm HF flowed as well as the 0.8 mm non-HF. So that shows you just how much better the CHT is. I imagine with a 0.6 HF you'd be able to hit the advertised 40 mm^3/s. However, they specifically said it could do 40 mm^3/s with the 0.4 mm, which I was only able to accomplish with excessively high temperatures. The redeeming factor is my finding that we don't actually require that much flow with a 0.4 mm nozzle. Larger nozzles will require a higher flow rate because of the wider extrusion width, but that will come naturally because the orifice size is larger so there is less back pressure.
Nope, it's not proportional to nozzle size -- the main factors are the power of your hotend heater (the Panda Revo has 60 Watt instead of the Bambu heater with 48 Watt) and the nozzle design (classic vs. multi-channel CHT designs) that determines how to get the energy from the heater into the filament to actually melt the material. Once the material is sufficiently viscous, both a stronger extruder and a wider nozzle make it easier to get it out onto the print bed.
@@janmartin1501 thanks. I should clarify. I didn’t mean to say it is directly proportional, regardless of other variables. A 0.6 CHT will have a higher max flow rate than a 0.4 CHT but a 0.4 CHT has more flow than a 0.6 non-CHT (based on my testing). So the increase of flow rate with nozzle size only holds true if you’re comparing apples to apples (CHT to CHT).
On sale right now, I just got the hot end with high flow brass nozzle for $120 and a 3 pack of brass nozzles (0.25 , 0.6 0.8) for $55. Can’t wait to get it!
I don't change my X1C hotend often but it's just easy enough that if I've a project that will really work better with a larger or especially smaller nozzle, I'll do it. But I've started to run into periodic problems with the hotend fan failing mid print. After some digging, the most likely culprit is that wear on those little JHT connectors for the wires mean the plugs are vibrating themselves loose over time. Plus, a couple of them are difficult to really get firmly seated, which makes them more likely to work loose. Using this setup would avoid all those potential damage/failure points. I just wish BTT would offer the hotend with a choice of nozzles. I print slow for extra detail and layer adhesion, so the high-flow hotend is a waste for me. I'd much prefer to have the option to save some money and get just a simple nozzle.
I’ve heard that a lot lately about damaging the hotend PCB by plugging / unplugging too many times. I agree with you on the hotend choice. I’d like to see them offer ObXidian as an option and perhaps a multi-pack of nozzles.
This is even worse of an issue if the P series because of the much smaller pins compared to the JST (I believe) connectors on the X series. I bent the pins twice and I was lucky enough to be able to bend them back in place but it's not an easy task to accomplish.
Im waiting to see what the X2 printer is going to be before dropping the dough on this. I suspect it will have the same nozzle setup as the A series. While the full nozzle assembly isn’t hard to change, like yourself, it’s enough of a pain to avoid slicing in larger diameters or CF filaments.
I showed this briefly in the video but didn't talk about it. The Revo seemed to perform considerably better at the higher temperature. I was able to get nearly 40 mm^3/s at 260C with the 0.4 mm HF Revo nozzle, but only got around 22 mm^3/s with the stock nozzle at 260C (v.s. 19 at 230). There must be a non-linear relationship between temperature and flow with the CHT.
obviously with 1.4mm nozzle, it's like adding a 1.8mm fillet on every corner. For some models it's fine, for others it's a disaster. the key benefit is in being able to lay 0.7mm thick lines tho, and the saving of time.
I miss having Revo since upgrading from Prusa MK3S+ to P1P & P1S machines. I have other size hotends but never bother to switch them. I used to switch them all the time when I had Revo
I thought about this, because I use REVO in other PRUSA printers, but ultimately went with the E3D HF ObXidian replacement. Not only a fair bit cheaper, but I think more purposely built. I don't change nozzle sizes that often, and if I need it I have other printers. The HF REVO ObXidian is not that impressive to me and way expensive.
I had an absolute nightmare with this hotend. I received it in January and installed it on my printer, but surprise surprise, it was wired wrong from the factory and fried my toolhead board. My fault I guess for expecting it to be delivered ready to install. Contacted support, and they said they would ship me a replacement heater… in 3 months. They told me that in January. It’s now June and I still haven’t gotten it. Took a heater from one of my other Revo’s and wired that up to plug into the Bambu (after they sent me a new toolhead board) and got it running. With the nozzle tightened fully, the nozzle hangs lower than the stock nozzle by about a millimeter or two. Doesn’t sound like much but it threw off cooling quite a bit. And on top of all of that, nothing would stick to the bed while I was using it. I never troubleshot that, I just pulled it out and put it aside. I might try again when I get the new heater from BIQU, but at this moment I’ve had a much worse experience with the Panda Revo than the Aliexpress hotends.
I might do this upgrade with the Diamondback revo tips when they come out, that will make the life of the tip a lot longer and can print carbon fiber without destroying the tip. Diamonds are forever, isn't that the saying? Until then I'll just use the cheap bambu tips. Also, maybe they will get the temp reading fixed in a revision, if that is possible since the thermistor can't be placed the same.
In light of the costs I have had to endure for replacement toolhead parts from the wear and tear of changing nozzles on Bambu the Revo would probably have been a cheaper way to go.
The Plateu from the flow isnt from the flow its from the motion system and the speed in the slicer not being set high enough or being able to go high enough to be able to use that extra max flow
Nah. I get a complete hotend assembly for 36€ from Bambu. Changing the hotend takes around 1min if already cold. I have 0.2-0.6 Hotends and change them when necessary but 90% of the time I print with 0.4mm anyway.
This is the truth. IF you already have the Revo ecosystem than it might be an ok move. But the quality of these Panda Revos is awful. I still don't have a working nozzle, and their CS is telling me to just fix it myself... so bad. Lots of people with nozzles without fan mounting holes or they are in the wrong spot. Mine had broken slices under the heat shrink, was told by their CS to just solder them... clown company wants me to fix their $130 nozzle?
Thanks for the review. The price is too rich for me and will stick with the OEM hot end. Being retired, I have ample time to spend swapping the hot end.
for timing nozzle heater, the most accurate way is set temperature to 260 or more, and make timing from 0 to 200C, because when temperature closing in to target pid kick in, not in 100% cycle power... and you mentioned the hotend heater PID can't be tuned so timing with different heater is not valid... sorry for bad english...
can you make a video for using panda jet and with panda revo setup? And then to see again what was the result. I just curious it might be the air blower cooling will increase the performance, maybe.
Same, the Panda Revos seem to be way lower quality than their other offerings. So many issues with this, something was rushed, or they fired their QA team. IDK but for the price its really bad all around.
2 months later and the revo hotend for x1 isnt available from their site. they have changed the status to "pre order" meaning this is not finished or there are issues?
I’m hoping now that there’s an official collab we’ll get a cheaper AliExpress clone like we’ve gotten with the CHT kits. Currently that’s what I use and I’ve had great success with flow rates up to 35 flow rate.
The revo doesn’t seem to have been cloned yet. Not sure why. You might see the revo compatible heater block on AliExpress with the spring, heater core and nozzle still needing to be purchased from E3D.
Hey, great comparison and explanations, like that approach with the details, makes things clear. Thanks sharing. I'm preparing a new nozzle type and heat block approach that should bring some great changes in matter of heat efficiency and flow... impatient to have it tested to confirm it...
how much faster can it make using a 0.8mm nozzle as i have purchased a 0.8mm nozzle from bambu only to realise it doesnt really reduce the print time due to it slowing the speed down, i assume because it isnt possible to push the filament any quicker at this size nozzle. so would be interesting to know how it effects printing times with 0.8mm nozzle. can it make 0.8mm prints much quicker?
How exactly do you manage to print with .25 on the X1C. The X1C requires matching the print file nozzle diameter with the nozzle diameter set under "print options" via the printer LCD. The printer firmware (LCD) only has 4 options .2, .4, .6 and .8mm (the first 2 being under stainless steel option, the hardended has the last 3). There is no .25 nozzle diameter, so by default the printer will refuse to print a .25 nozzle diameter sliced file, unless you modified "line width" under print quality
@@ygk3d because the printer must have been set to .2mm too, ofc that setup would work if you sliced for .2mm. you wouldn't be using the full nozzle diameter. Try making a printer profile with a .25 diameter, ain't gonna print. Printer will complain about nozzle size mismatch. The only way to use .25 or .15 is by modifying line with
Hey Taylor. Love the video! And the testing and rabbit hole exploring. Did you happen to test the stock hot end at 260-270° (whatever you figured the Panda hot end equals in the real world) with the eSUN fast PLA or whichever they said they got the best flow results, with the Bambu hot ends and their nozzle sizes. I’m curious how much you can push the flow rate on the X1C with higher temps. I got one of these nozzles and it broke day 1. Assuming just a lemon. I’m still waiting for resolution 6 weeks later, w the holiday breaks. That said, I loooove the idea of quick-change nozzles on the X1C. It could be worth it for those! I really don’t like all the hassle with stock hot ends, having to unscrew, unplug, and the reverse, aaand sometimes reuse the heater and thermistor with the Bambu hot ends. And like you guys have said, that can wear/break the PCB. Yikes. Looking forward to more A1 mini style nozzles!
Thanks! Yes, I did do that test. I showed it briefly in the video @4:47 but didn't talk about it. The result with the stock hotend at 260C was much worse than the Revo HF at the same temperature. It seems that there's a non-linear relationship between temperature and flow on the Revo. At higher temperatures, the flow is considerably better on the Revo than stock. Whereas at lower temperatures the flow is only marginally better. I only have this one data point so I can't say for certain whether that's a global trend, but I thought it was interesting.
No way id pay that. I just bought a full hardened replacement from bambu labs site for AUD$59 and swapped it out in minutes. And that was my first time. Itll only get easier and quicker and i run an etsy shop. I dont find all this necessary, especially for that money.
OK now swap to a 0.6 nozzle and check volumetric flow, it doubled. a 0.6 nozzle is perfect for cutting printing time with minimal to no loss in quality. The only place where detail is lost is on features that are less than about the diameter of the nozzle so 0.6, and even then only some detail is lost. In reality if 90% of the printing you do is functional a 0.6 nozzle with better flow to boot can cut printing time by nearly half from a 0.4 nozzle
You are wrong about anything over 15mm3/s being diminishing returns.. I but over 3 hours off my print time using filament I maxed out at 30mm3/s over a different brand using 16mm3/s
In a 0.6 pound for pound. Ali express 0.6 CHT harden steet nozzle Vs 0.6 revo Obsidian High flow Which one can produce more flow? I just care about the bottom line max flow number. Which can produce more (i ONLY make large blocky prints and will 100% benefit from flow and higher temp as i ramp up my tempe pretty high so they are somewhat strong) max speed max output is my only interest. If its not yours. Please ignore this comment. If anyone knows please let me know
I really like the idea of picking up a panda revo just so I can also grab some diamondback nozzles for my x1c. I think thats worth noting. Buy that's yet another money sink thar costs even more than the panda
I haven't experimented with those myself. Not sure what benefit they would have over something like the ObXidian which is already a wear-resistant nozzle.
@ygk3d doc down there Saud it pretty well, but yeah the diamondbacks are essentially wear proof with great thermals. Watched an interview where diamondback has up to 10k hours printing cf-nylon with virtually no wear.
So silly for bambu to leave money on the table by not providing such individual item upgrades themselves. I would drop 150-200 on a new print head for the p1s with A1 features.
no idea why so expensive is it, becomes just nozzle with heater and thermistor you gan get for 25usd, that mean radiator with m4 hole cost so much? I just order from PCBway rest of part, total savings 2/3 of price or instruction how to stole from China
there is nop reason to pay 130 Eur for this... if i am not getting that much different flow, and as you claim everything above 40 it don't matter. so why should someone buy this ? for fast changing the nozzle!? nah thanks in 15 mins its done on stock.
I just did a few changes from .4 to .2 and back and it really only takes like 2 min max to get the nozzle out and back in. Most of my time was spent waiting for the machine to heat up, move and for the hot end to cool enough to handle it. I also bought this hot end and oh boy, the quality of the splices on the wires is so bad. One of the connections just wasn't there under the heat shrink, the other was weak too. They were also spliced right where I needed to make the bend for that bundle to fit in the printer. Took them forever to offer to send replacement wires and thermo, like 2 months and they want me to just resolder them. I told them to keep it, I'm not using their cheap shit. Unless you are in the revo ecosystem already, I can't see this being a win for anyone.
I'm seriously considering this hotend as an upgrade but i need specific info i've yet to find a single video on. I regurarly do multicolor. E3D can't give me an answer if it's cable to do this without clogging, and BTT email support said it can't yet (for the X1C). Can you make a video on this? My latest print is dragon by Albaro_3D from printables that did 1874 color swaps in 4 days. The high flow of this hot end would really push that down but i need a video about multicolor swaps in action and print results
The only thing I could see potentially being impacted is transition length. You might need more purge more to fully clean out the nozzle. Otherwise, it will work the same as the stock hotend for multi-colour printing.
@@ygk3d good to know, but I kind of want to see it in action. Reading it can successfully swap colors is one thing. Seeing it do them and completing a print is an entirely different thing. I just can't bite the bullet unless I see it in action doing multiple color swaps and finishing a print. Especially with the cost of the hotend (and your comment just now directly contradicting my emails from BTT). I'm happy to fw you the email chain to your contact email listed on linktree if it's ok?
in that case I'll fw the email chain either tomorrow or during the weekend. I'll see a response then when you have the time, no rush. Ain't available for release anyway until April. @@ygk3d
Bullshit that you can get it done in 2 minutes. And they're annoying as hell plus if you replace multiple times because of clogs or anything like that then you are getting warped metal and bends or dings or dents or something else. So what this allows you to do is not have to worry about buying extra thermal paste. Not having to buy extra nozzle heads, the fans, rubber heat and covers the metal clamps for the thermistor. I have six or seven.4 mm hot ends all because multiples of them have gotten clogged to the point where the heat break bent and I could not get it back where it was supposed to go so it's literally unusable. And then I've had multiple fans go out because when you take it off something is bound to go wrong after you've had to remove it multiple times. And then on top of it I bought a third party thermal paste because you have to keep replacing it when you switch from a 2.4.6.8 nozzle so this makes it so much easier ... If it works.
I have done so many nozzle changes that yes I can do it in my sleep at this point with my eyes closed absolutely and even I can't do it in 2 minutes and I've got third-party long Allen screwdrivers that help significantly without having to use an actual allen wrench. I don't care who you are You're not doing it in 2 minutes unless you are screwing it up.
