Billy the Kid was more sinned against than sinning. He had a steady job working for Henry Tunstall a man who billy had a lot of time for. It wasn't until his boss Henry Tunstall was murdered by those working for the cattle barons that things started to get out of hand. What a lot people are unaware of is that Billy and his friends became the unofficial law in the territory when they formed what came to be known as the regulators and they wanted revenge for the murder of their boss. They killed two of the men who murdered Tunstall but Dolan(one of the cattle barons) and his cohorts owned the law and it wasn't long before the hunters( Billy and his friends) became the hunted
I remember watching the ‘cross of iron’ as a kid with my Opi who was a Kriegsmarine veteran. His cousin was a sniper in the eastern front. Was an honor to have know them and to hear their stories, the last great generation.
@Nicholas Littlefield I met quite a few "ww2 veterans" when i worked in a German nursing home. One of those gentlemen told me: "Do you know how to recognize someone who really was directly involved in combat and saw the truth about war with his own eyes? He doesn´t want to talk about it!"
Billy: Ol' Pat... Sheriff Pat Garrett. Sold out to the Santa Fe ring. How does it feel? Garrett: It feels like... times have changed. Billy: Times, maybe. Not me
I feel sad for a generation raised on the vacuity of comic book movies. We won't see the like of Sam Peckinpah again. The Wild Bunch was his masterpiece, but both Pat Garrett and Bring Me The Head of Alfredo Garcia also resonate.
Insightful review of one of my all time favourites. Peckinpah's westerns were terrific and its hard not to include at least four of them in my all time top ten, including The Wild Bunch, Ride the High Country and Major Dundee. The shootout scene with Coburn, Slim Pickens, Katy Jurado and the legendary LQ Jones, to the sound of Dylan's Knockin' On Heaven's Door, is pure poetry. In a world seemingly dominated by self loathing corporatism, political correctness and feminism, this film howls like a majestic wounded lone wolf into the dark night of the soul.
One of my favorite films. In Peckinpah's films, men are men, and the realities of the struggle for existence are always present. Another superb review mate!
Bizzare tale,James Coburn used to come to Bury (Lancs) for treatment of his chronic arthritis,my mate was a taxi driver,and one of his colleagues picked Coburn up from Manc airport to take him to his appointment,the cabbie recognised him and said ‘ your a great actor but your singing of Wanderin’ Star was terrible’...yup,he got him mixed up with Lee Marvin...! That’s cabbies for ya...
Life has traditionally been existentially high stakes. Now we live in a sort of Kafkaesque alive but not living state. No one wants to see their family or selves destroyed, and hopefully not their people either, but how much fat can the fois gras ducks take? How much deplatforming, debanking, purging, unemploying, deracination and atomisation?
This movie and your analysis of it offer no good option, or even lesser-of-two-evils option, but two equally bad ones. On the one hand, I get the joy of being an honorless wage slave and consumer. On the other, I get the joy of being shot in the back by some other outlaw, my wife raped and my kids murdered. That's a shit choice. Going beyond the personal, a civilization cannot exist under either of these conditions. Every great nation in history, from the Sumerians to Great Britain, needed law, mutual trust, a code of behavior, binding traditions and peaceful times and places in which to grow. The Wild West prevents the peace, the trust and the law. Capitalist modernity forbids a code of behavior or binding traditions. Neither one allows for a great nation to exist. And yet, great civilizations have existed. Clearly there must be a third way. There must be a way to harness the good from both, as nations of the past did, and escape this trap. Step by step we'll rediscover it. Heaven knows I don't have it figured out.
@@The_Custos It can, but so can war. We wouldn't be in nearly so bad a position right now if WW 1 and 2 had not put 2 generations of Europe's best and manliest men in the ground.
I choose to be John Chisum. Not as many metaphorical cattle of course. But I own my own resources and set my own agenda. I had to be an "honorless wage slave" without even the benefit of getting to be a consumer for a few years to get that ball rolling but that's not so bad.
@Venneroth Mainly because this led to the domination of liberalism, mind you The Great War led to the decadence of the 20s, but the decadent 20s led to the tougher 30s, and in turn to the great generation of the 40s The World Wars were part of Europe's generational cycle, and might well have produced a more vigorous civilisation than anything that had come before The issue is mainly with how it all panned out (I'm not saying "the good guys lost" either, just that the side that did win, the liberal side, is what is to blame for our present condition, not the actual wars themselves)
Also a side note to Cimino's western , Heavens Gate . 1979 The American dream stripped bare as corruption no critic of the time in the 70s supported it . Hailed as a masterpiece now but not then .
You are quite correct when you state that the Western as a genre is a repository of unreconstructed masculinity, and alternative masculinities, queer and trans men, are woefully unrepresented in the canon. Brokeback Mountain did something to redress this balance, but it is very much of its time, falling back into straight-acting tropes of the gay cowboy, with the sex scenes coyly veiled for a heteronormative and heterocentric audience, and no trans representation. Given this situation, it would be instructive for Hollywood to re-make Pat Garratt and Billy the Kid for a new woke generation of filmgoers. Perhaps Pat Garratt could be a trans individual, struggling with xir non-binary identity and painful bottom surgery as xe hunts down a Billy the Kid wanted by the state for transphobic and homophobic hate speech. This is the kind of re-make to the obsolete stale male and pale canon that Hollywood needs to be thinking about.
Which carcass you been feasting on lately ya little shithawk. We know dont we. Another brownie point for your sand buddies if newcastle do that deal. Minaret soon after - own goal then....
@vermilion J OK then - I did find this out of character post by Nick. The thread was a standoff between MW and the fake scot Usman Akhtar. Raw & unedited > " Hi, Usman, just to let you know that I'm one of those so-called fellow Scots you refer to, and me and other Scots who think like me will be helping you to go back. You have a choice - go back or go under. Don't mistake the commie stronghold of Glasgow as being representative of Scotland as a whole, it isn't, and trust me, all ethnic groups have their breaking point. We the Scots (that's not an inclusive 'we'), are just about at that point now. It's about time " Here > ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-QS_eYk3N5Po.html So he's really a rabid scottish Nazi ? LOL LETS SEE IF HE DELETES THESE COMMENTS
Would I rather have: A. Comfortable house, cell phone, Nordstrom. B. Guys shooting my family and stealing my stuff. Tough call, but I'm going with A. Willing to consider a C, if a plausible one is on offer. (Confession: I'm from Canada, where the Mounties moved in with the settlers and the delights of a lawless frontier never materialized. Guess we don't know what we missed.)
That's an interesting point Kirk, about the Mounties being the pioneers. Was there that much difference between the American and the Canadian frontier? I must look into it
The best western movie ever made is a matter of personal opinion, but Pat Garret and billy the Kid is up there with the best of them , also The Wild Bunch which is my personal favourite. Sam Peckinpah also made one of the best war films ever with Cross of Iron. These movies are very male orientated and that is why the feminazi's hate them. So if you are a young male, check out these old films from the sixties and seventies because you will never see their like again. The modern male has been well and truly neutered and we just let it happen.
The West was also a "low density population" space where the "individual" thrived. It was like Sargon's libertarian paradise of semi-psychopaths seeking their own individual gain only that with guns instead of entrepreneurs....We need stories about masculinity and heroes but not with lonely-isolated heroes but with communities and with men getting together to defend them, or with men being recognized and valued by their communities&families for their heroic contributions. The Lone-Ranger is a dead end, it did not end well for the West either. Rome and its civic spirit -virtu- lasted longer.
@@The_Custos Yes, that is a good one...or even one with the Western expansion if you like the theme but one with circling the wagons and defending against the Indian attacks. One with men, women and children sticking together and helping each other to thrive. We need solidarity, family and community and a meaningful vision where each man's work, struggle and sacrifice are important, valuable, essential, in the scheme leading to the common welfare. The American myth of lonely heroic individualism is a self-defeating one in the long run, it is an object without a background to grant the object's existence.
Going back to the Roman example, I believe there was an Italian film based on the Romulus and Remus myth that used proto-Latin as the primary language spoken. I haven't seen it, but such a setting is an excellent opportunity to show the benefits of working together to build a community through the harnessing of individual talents, but also the pitfalls of individual egos.
I get your point and I think I film on Julius Ceasar would be great but you can’t beat some westerns. Their is something inherently masculine about them that’s completely devoid in film now. Once upon time in the west is another great example of a western masculine epic. I remember watching westerns with my dad and Rambo and they are prober mans man films.
Remember taping this , ooo almost 30 years ago , on bbc . Used to be a movie night thing with a prelude 10 15 mins with some dude introducing it , canni remember the name of the show 😉. Anyway, loved it . Watched it over m over . Much better than young guns 2 which was a remake of this ! Great vid dude!
The Western is really about order v. chaos I think. Peckinpah sympathises with the chaos/black hat guys in his movies, especially the far superior The Wild Bunch. Billy is a psycho and Pat is tempted back to the gangster life, he becomes an egotist again during the hunt, and the end for me is really a let-down with no great shoot-out or confrontation.
That's why I love the story of Jesse James mate. That guy did not care for the changing world around him or the outcome of the american civil war. He just went on doing what he did best and did not gave a shit. Mr Howard😂😂👍👍
Peckinpah's early film-Ride the High Country plants a similar theme. Men who are out of place being subsumed by an industrialised world. In the opening scene Joel McCrea riding a horse is crossing paths with the new fangled automobile "Get out of the way old man". The scene is set. It corresponds to how we all feel; slightly behind the currents of modernity, never quite in unison with the world.
I know this is a little late, but that was one of the most interesting westerns made. Peckinpah always had a fascination with the transition of the wild west and early twentieth century America. The scene where a semi-auto rifle was used seems so out of place, but the pace of modern technology at the turn of the twentieth century was amazingly rapid.
Thanks as always to your insight into something I have only viewed superficially. I always thought casting Kristofferson as Billy was odd - a strapping hunk to play a character who is legendarily small and weasily, and a kid. Also not a fan of James Coburn, but this is his best and least wooden performance. It is decades since I saw this film, and I must watch it again ... after I have watched Cross of Iron again, and maybe The Wild Bunch.
Really interesting bonny lad. I haven't seen this since I was a kid, I'll check it out now, thanks. I've just rediscovered Shane after hearing the audio book. The film is excellent but the book is much deeper. Particularly the attraction with Shane and the wife and the attendant discipline they both show. In that story too, there's a man who lives with men's rules but doesn't fit in to the new world so he walks away. All these wonderful westerns I watched as a boy are all taking on a whole new meaning, it's fabulous.
We all know that Tarantino has made some ultra-woke crap, but you should check out Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. It reminded me of some of these classic Westerns. There's also a lot of unrepentant, unreconstructed masculinity in it. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it.
Wonderful film and like all Peckinpah films its about things lost, people, times, honour. Only thing wrong with it is everone in it is fucking years and years too old for the roles they play. Billy was 22 when Pat Garret killed him. Pat was 31. But for all that its a bloody good film
I've never seen it but will be finding a copy based on your review. When I was growing up my Dad would watch endless cowboy films and I never really understood it until I became a man. Now, I romanticize that wild, pioneer spirit, and in many ways long for it. Vast expanses of unspoilt nature in which Europeans could exercise their morality and innovation, and put god-given skills to the test.
Looks really good; will give this a watch. I know listicles are generally pretty forgettable but have you thought about making a list of recommended films at all? Westerns are one genre I've never really been into but am going to give them a try..
Awesome stuff! great to hear your take on a brilliant movie like this. Glad to hear something else than straight up political talk. Thanks, mate. Cheers! p.s. - do you like the 1993's Tombstone, btw? Personally I think it's an absolute (masculine) masterpiece, too.
Once upon time in the West is another classic western epic that’s very masculine. Definitely give it a watch Morgoth, music is stunning as well. Ennio Morricone the Italian maestro.
@@MorgothsReview1 Will take a gander pal. It's a great western in that it's another depiction of the end of the west. The train tracks being built throughout the film kind of depicts the new industrial world the west would enter into. If you have the chance you should check ''There will be Blood''. Its a more modern film as such but it also depicts mans greed and reminds me of the Leone westerns. Deadwood is great as well as a series.
How about Dead Man 1995 by Canadian Jim Jarmusch.. Brilliant piece of work..fine cast too....and a really complementary soundtrack by the masterful Neil Young...unless you've reviewed it already
To the other Morgoth film critics would recommend my all time Favourite . Melville's Un Flic 1973 ( A Cop ) it distilled the formula of crime and punishment / heist movie in to a stunning dissection of Misogyny Betrayal Suicide more as a statement of mini skirt 70 s hell by institution capitalism the characters are all cyphers in an apparatus .. The critics hated it . Including of course the greatest actor ever Alain Delon it completed Melville's trilogy with him. But I quess capitalism is the same hex formula and we're still in it . So although I've seen many since Un Flic still stands . Stands like a prison . Melville never recovered from his experiences fighting the Gestapo and he displaces that bleak experience in to the soft 70s a truly unnerving meta nihilism under the plastic kitsch . Less than nothing .
It's a great companion piece to the wild bunch. The anachronism of the characters. Billy the kid it seems in this movie wants to die along with the old west and its pat Garrett that wants to live and is willing to sell out to the modern corporate world. Whereas in the wild bunch all the main characters want to die as they know their time has passed. A tragic and groundbreaking classic
Red dead 2 is brilliant not much of a gamer nowadays but that feeling of the west slowly dying and being replaced with mass government and corporations is thread throughout the whole game and the fact you are apart of a group makes it all the more poignant. Especially if you take the more honourable side of Arthur and decide to sacrifice yourself for a bigger cause in Marston and his family. I was quite taken back by the level of writing and story beats in the game.
Feminists informed us Sam Peckinpah suffered from a bad case of MENSTRUAL ENVY. All men envy the woman's womb and the power to create life, and Sam Peckinpah was more envious than most. The slow motion gunshots with exaggerated gloops of blood erupting from men's bodies is clear evidence of Menstrual Envy. Poor old Sam 😆
I have to disagree on the dichotomy you draw between Reactionnary primitivism and capitalist liberalism Western civilization can thrive with modernity, rule of law, and yes, even taxes. After all is it not thr essence of ou civilization ? Peace, harmony, ingenuity and a striving for embetterment for our community ?
I just watched this film for the first time last night. The narrative structure and editing are a total mess. Unless one knows these historical characters, many viewers would be completely lost. The plot is difficult to follow and characters come and go in the movie that seem to have importance to Pat and Billy, but we're often not told why or how. Scrawny little Bob Dylan as an outlaw gun-man was a bit of a stretch. This is really Pat Garrett's story, but the movie spends too much time on Billy, in my opinion. We get that Pat Garrett sold out, but the movie doesn't show us why he sold out. The Chisum character barely is shown and is often mentioned. Comparing this film to other Peckinpah films like Wild Bunch or Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia, this film is sloppy and feels unfinished, like we're watching a rough cut of a film that was abandoned midway through. The repetitive overuse of Dylan's "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" gets annoying and sometimes doesn't fit some scenes. You can tell the music was not directly scored for the film.
Great review Morgoth, should definitely do more. I am not sure I have seen this, but having watched so many westerns when i was young, i probably have. Is there anything better than watching a western with your father in the living room, no women around, drinking your cans, and total silence. Seen his Cross of Iron, I think a masterpiece, one of the top war movies of all time no doubt about it. Yesteryear we had Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, Lee Van Cleef, Charles Bronson, Paul Newman, Lee Marvin, Jack Palance, Charlton Heston, Robert Duvall, Henry Fonda, James Coburn, Yul Brynner, et al. Todays "hard men" of hollywood.....G Clooney, Marky Mark, Matt Damon, L Di caprio, and Brad Pitt. No fucking comparison. No wonder the young uns are all on the soy.
