Player DISQUALIFIED Mid-Game for "Stalling"! 

11:08 Please let this go and don't do any research. Thanks.

This is a very polite, diplomatic and well reasoned way of saying it but, "this player is bitchmade, dq is valid" would've equally sufficed

If someone is camping while down just let them lose, thats exactly what the timer exists for

I will say there is a HUGE difference between DQed and game loss. The player was given a game loss which in turn meant they were out of the tournament because they lost the set. They were going to lose that game, they were down a full stock and doing literally nothing.

Hey dude, just wanna say the content has been fire lately. Keep up the grind

Literally zero competitors in this drone comment section lmao

Agreed with HugS on this one that the TO was within his rights to call a DQ for stalling. ICs were in the lead and it wasn’t on them to approach. A lot of ppl mistakenly think that stalling is only defined as some unbeatable or near-unbeatable strategy like wobbling to 999% or infinite Meta Knight dimensional cape. Things like that are banned specifically in addition to the general stalling rule. This TO was just one of the few to act on that rule, and he did so legitimately for sure.

i'm 100% in favor of the DQ. 1. TO enforced their own rules at their own tourney, big whoop. 2. discouraging unwatchable gameplay is a massive W. 3. hard stopping to 'gameplan' midgame is a garbage excuse for lack of preparation

This wouldn't ever fly in a MAJOR tournament! It's BS.

The LEAST that zelda could've done was side-b.

Definitely with the TO. He wasn't zoning; clearly stalling to test patience. It's a valid strat but anti-stalling rules exist for the viewer experience. He could have let it sit a bit longer, sure, but the TO made a valid choice.

I gotta say, I was so annoyed at the community for going after this TO. It's HIS TOURNAMENT and we're on wifi, why do y'all care so much? 😭 Seeing this vid pop up on my feed had my like "oh God what does my boy hugs gotta say now, I thought this shit was done" but you hit em with the best take of the year. Props to you

This is far from unwatchable. I think the frustration of the Zelda player is funny. This is analogous to holding the ball for 23 seconds before taking your shot in basketball when you’re down. It’s not good strategy, but it’s perfectly legal. The match results will tell that story.

Enforcing this rule also let’s the tournament continue and end at a reasonable time. People don’t wanna play that long nor watch that long. Stalling EZ (plus he started to run away and disengage while down. Just forfeit at that point, dude)

Man you know its bad when even the zoner main calls it stalling

the zelda was down a stock and down a game in losers they were already going to lose and had clearly given up cause they werent playing anymore at that point i feel like they were just wasting everyone's time for no reason, so the TO was right to DQ them and keep the tourney moving

60$ and joining a tournament to not interact? Hold that L. Good on you TO

I respect hugs opinion more because hes a smogon player that is also a community that is community built.

How is it stalling if the ice climbers isnt approaching either? You can't just force someone to approach, especially against ice climbers.

I still can't believe this player actually went on twitter constantly saying they were "coming up with a gameplan" then proceeds to push the B button a hundred times LOL like nah, we all know you had no plan

competitive matches are allowed to be boring. *but I respect the TO’s decision

As a longtime Melee TO I've thought about this a lot and I believe it should work similar to boxing rules where you need to show willingness to engage on the stage. There is a subjective element to this which may affect how a matchup is played so the decision should be made by a seasoned player as a referee overseeing the match. There should be a warning for a first infraction in the set and a DQ for the second infraction. Both players are responsible so if neither player chooses to engage both will be DQ'd (to cover the case similar to Michael vs Bananas). The difficulty with this method is that EVERY match would need a trusted and seasoned player as a referee which would be difficult for large tournaments. This video is a great example of a justifiable DQ.

There should be a rule against timidity. That should hopefully make the word stalling less ambiguous.

100% agree with the to. Even if the zelda would have lost anyways if they played it out, it’s just a huge waste of time and bad for viewership

It shouldn't matter if they stall or not, that's just how the game goes sometimes! People need to stop being babies!!

In the UFC, if a fighter is laying back on the ground w the opp standing, despite being able to get up, for an extended period of time, the ref forces the laying fighter to get up and continue fighting. Same procedure if both fighters are standing but camping each other and not fighting at all, or clinching for an extended period of time. I look at this stalling call as the same as a UFC ref doing their job.

Great response.

this zelda just can't hold an L huh? 😂 This is not smash dude. Fight the opponent brother.

Goated thumbnail

I think this will be a spicy one. Please understand I am strongly opinionated and if you disagree with me it’s all love still LOL

The fact its on the "losing side" is pretty messed up tbh. If you are down already "stalling" is just letting yourself lose more.. Its as much on the winning side to push the adv they already have. ALSO she did get like 30% off letting icey approach.

Imo melee ledge grab limit isn’t all that effective, all we have are the consequences of players thinking you’re super lame

Melee had a game where two players literally did nothing for a whole game and were only given a warning. This seems a bit excessive, but I support it.

It seems wrong to say that tournament rules were created to reward specific things. Stuff like items not being allowed and certain stages not being allowed aren’t rules because the community doesn’t want to encourage the skills of item usage and stage camping; they’re rules to make the game more fair for everyone, to even the playing field and have the best player come out on top. Also, why is the timer even there if taking some time to compose yourself or run away to try and force an approach is “stalling” and a forfeitable offense? Let people play how they want within the rules, not everyone has to be slamming their faces into each other the whole time for games to be interesting and entertaining.

i saw this thumbnail in my notifications and thought it was a walt video for a tournament called like don't camp on the grass

I think the TO was in their rights to DQ, and I don't think this was an unreasonable abuse of power at that point. But I think it would have been better if they had waited maybe 30 or 40 more seconds. Often situations like that will resolve themselves. The odds the clock actually runs down with neither player doing anything is low. If it does happen though, just dq the person. Anyway good video, interesting to discuss.

Ok but 20 seconds? TO couldn't even wait a minute total? Lol

I think the dq is not just to punish the camper but also to reward (or at least prevent from enduring unfairly) the player in the lead. Yes, the camper would've lost anyway if they let the match continue like that, but why should the leader have to sit through 5 more minutes of that? Like Hugo said, rules serve to discourage certain behaviors and to encourage others, and by dqing the camper, both goals are achieved. Better player in this match is encouraged to keep playing well and camper is discouraged from staying still for 40 seconds.

It’s interesting that Puff’s b-air turns it around in Ultimate , to prevent stalling , while in Melee it’s exploited a lot for easy camping .

The way I see it, the DQ was unnecessary since the Zelda would just lose the game via timeout anyway. Yeah its boring, but their inaction isn't rewarding them, its hurting them. If they want to just stand there and lose, let them lose.

There is a big difference between not approaching and being unapproachable. The reason peach bomber stall, rising pound, and planking are considered stalling is because there is no way for the other player to even attempt to hit you. If the timer were to run the Zelda would lose or be forced to approach when the timer gets low, that’s why we have a timer. Calling a match mid game because a Zelda didn’t move for a minute is just petty and stupid.

the ic's had like 4-5 options there every time. I'm not sure how this is any more stalling than "Standing there menacingly" - every amateur online sonic player ever should be dq'd under this logic.

This guy should NOT be a TO if he can't stand someone else's play styles!

Funny how he and Hungrybox have perfectly opposite takes on this.

0:50 to 1:28 feels more like the ICs were trying to angle shoot to win here as they never even bothered to move and try and bait something and just went pivot dancing. 1:29 to 2:20 Seemed more an actual attempt to stall, then 2:26 was a potential IC angle shoot again.

Hbox made a video on this where he thought the TO was in the wrong. Comments on that video mostly agree with him. I think y’all aren’t thinking about this yourselves and are letting emotions and influence dictate your opinions. Imo this was a bad move on the TO. You can see how his emotions drove his decision more than the rules. Dude has a problem within the first frame of zelda’s teeter animation. Both players were perfectly hitable. The zelda could do the exact same “stalling” next time, but stand a little closer and put more acting into it to hide his intentions. I mean are we just going to enact a “if your % is lower you must approach like a dumbass” rule? Why even have a timer at all if the tournament can’t run properly when matches actually go to time? Imo if this is an actually viable stalling tactic that must be banned, then ultimate truly is one lame as hell video game.

yeah once he started waiting the second time, it felt completely justified. The platform camping and down b's was annoying, but fine. If you refuse to approach all together when you're down a stock, that's another thing altogether

why have a clock if you're not going to let it run out hugs

TL;DR: Timer is way too big. The only reason y'all hate stalling is because your shitty ruleset dictates that the player is to keep-away for eight agonizing minutes to win. With the only deterrents (should any even be necessary) being: 1. Getting bored/impatient. 2. Getting banned by the totally level-headed TO. Look. The player should only care about one thing. Playing to win. The rules should not go against this, they should be minimal, only exist to make up for necessary in-built functionalities that are not already present, or act as an agreed-upon standard that outlines exactly what in-game features are/aren't authorized (which of course can always be gentlemanned). The game should be allowed to be what it is, and if people don't like it, they should play a different one. Instead of arbitrarily deciding someone is not playing entertainingly enough, how about we for once think about the fact that this is a competition? Assuming both players are playing to win, the current ruleset is in direct fucking conflict with what the TO wants, what the viewers want, what the competitors want, AND how the game was designed. By having dumbfuck rules like these, or banning shit, you admit that the game is not well-designed, and are assuming the position of the gamedev in an attempt to fix it. With that said, the timer you all choose to play with is way too big in smash games. I might go so far as to say that even six minutes is too long. Timeouts are hype, and every other fighting game under the sun allows the player to use the timer as a tool to win just like any other. Sadly smash players only play smash. I almost unironically want to say that y'all should just say screw using stocks, and do 4-minute time-battle. Coming from someone who has actually played more than just smash, I'll admit it might not be inherently better than stocks, but it sure as hell makes more sense than making these blurry-ass house rules where running away is the boogeyman, and stalling is a bannable offense. Running away can be a really viable strategy, if it wasn't supposed to be done sometimes, then the game wouldn't be designed the way it was. If you think the game is not well-designed, and does not provide an adequate competitive setting, why are you playing it? A logical mf wouldn't "try and make it work" with some bullshit imaginary restrictions. They would simply play something else. Running away in a traditional fighter with a 3-min timer was never a problem because it doesn't happen all the fuckin time, the round still has to be played at least for the first half to get any real lead, and only a minute max has to actually be spent running away to successfully time someone out. Mind you, those games don't typically have zoning tools as oppressive as melee fox lasers or Samus missiles forcing people to close the gap, or hyper-fast analogue movement that allows those in pursuit an infinite number of ways to coax the staller into throwing out a punishable panic button. We have fireballs that are negative on-hit at close-range, and do minuscule damage. Side note: Nobody seems to give a fuck about the integrity of a good-old competition anymore. I really don't think much legitimate thought is put into actually dissecting and understanding platforms for competitive practice. Situations like what is shown in the video above, instances where characters get banned, as well as situations where players themselves get banned all stack up to create an event that, at the end of the day, determines... Fucking nothing. 1. Half the good players are banned. 2. The best character got banned. 3. The players are puppeteered around in real-time mid-match to play in a certain way with no clear boundary-lines. In the world of competition, you are simply no longer playing Ultimate! Just play PM or some shit at that point! Stop beating around the bush lmao! All these companies, sponsors, and investors are starting to realize this after dumping millions of dollars into the incinerator that is most modern esports. They are all pulling out because you guys utterly failed to do the most basic shit: Just play the damn video game! If people simply played games they truly knew were great, this shit would not be an issue! Random fucking rules would not need to be thought up because people would rather just play a good game instead! Bad games would sell like shit and be cast aside, while good games would thrive! The world becomes a better place! Wow! Holy shit!

That Zelda player is a crybaby.

if it had only been either half of the stalling, this video wouldn't even exist, I think. The Zelda just straight up had a bitch fit and got shot for it, as it should have been.

Re-commenting because I believe it is a valid point. Personally, I believe stalling rules should be enforced to both the winning and losing players because it would stay true to ensuring viewing entertainment. Rewarding one side and punishing the other is a little biased. You may argue that it is an effective strategy and I would agree, but refusal to play is still refusal to play. It is exploiting a rule or lack thereof to force your opponent to become impatient or increasing your lead by running down the clock. If you are playing online or as part of a ladder with no viewership. Use whatever tools are at you disposal. But at the end of the day, this is an esports tournament. It is a sport. The term sport is defined by an activity where an individual or team competes against another FOR ENTERTAINMENT. Across all sports, not just esports, there are rules that stop players and teams from stalling and ensuring entertainment to the audience. Examples being but not limited to: shot clocks in basketball, icing in hockey, play clocks in football, serving time limits in tennis. The difference there is that it applies to BOTH sides. In this case, I believe the DQ was a correct decision. However, if the ICs player had also continued to not engage, they should have been penalized as well or the penalties should have been offset. Clearly as the match went on, the ICs player had engaged while the Zelda player continued to run (refusal to play) and was then promptly DQ'd which was a correct decision in my opinion.

Streamer's tournament and I'm sure there was no entry fee so he can run it however he likes, also a valid decision imo

Rules are rules. There is a shot clock in the NBA for a reason.

Have you seen Tero vs Pepito at Berlin Calling in 2010? I think just standing there, being cornered, not engaging with your opponent AT A DISADVANTAGE, I think that's not stalling. They're just losing the game, when time runs out. This shit is just playing a stock disadvantage really bad. Just wait them out and be ready for whenever they approach. Bad call by the TO.

sped through it but idk if you mentioned that the TO and the icies were, at the time of the clip, on the SAME TEAM and likely were/are friends, so there is another side to the story. Ultimately I think this TO should never TO again, there's TO discretion and then there's abusing power because you didn't like what you saw for like a combined 40s or something, would love to see how he handles a sonic match. This wasn't a dq it was a forced game loss that ended the set MID GAME, I repeat, MID GAME IT IS STILL GOING, the TO ended the game early with reasoning akin to, "we know how it's going to end" which he says something like that(maybe it was on twitter), as if there has never been a comeback in a set ever

I dont get it. WHy is the Zelda not bothering to approach considered "stalling" but Icies not approaching isn't? That doesn't make any sense

classic online player

Feel like the entire controversy just boils down to some people objecting to the term "stalling" being used to refer to both blatantly egregious acts (eg Puff Pound stalling underneath the stage) and also refusing the engage for some period of time. Everyone should be able to admit that the latter CAN be a legitimate strategy, and they should also be able to admit that it CAN be bad for the game. To some people, labeling that strategy as stalling is implicitly saying that it's completely disallowed, which I don't think anyone seriously believes (there's a distinction between stalling and "excessive" stalling).

I dont know if this is stalling, all I know is that all Zelda mains are grime lords.

Hugs made this point already, but there is a clear distinction between stalling and camping. The Zelda player in the clip stalled, then "engaged" by camping (mostly by using phantom), then went back to stalling. The TO was well within his right to DQ. I myself have come up with stupid rebuttals to fair rules, so I can say from experience that the Zelda player's rebuttal of "I was planning" was stupid.

I just don’t see what he was gaining as an advantage when he’s down a stock. It’s just a weird scenario to begin with. Idk though I’m just not a fan of a few instances of stalling or campy gameplay getting blown up and then the reaction is banning said strategies. I know that’s not popular but what’s the point of having a game that there are options that aren’t glitches or items or anything like that and u can’t use it? If u wanna say to end the tournament at a decent time then okay but say that.

Music choice are fire

There's a timer for a reason. If matches aren't decided by Knockout then it will be decided on Time. If you don't like how long playing for time takes, just lower the timer.

About your lasers point, it made me think about Ultimate Fox running away and shooting lasers for a percent lead, when I think you mean in Melee where that strategy is actually good

Not stalling, "you must approach" is not a rule. Also very few tournament matches are streamed and spectated. Make your tournament longer.

commenting for the alg

When it comes to Zelda mains losing!🎉 I like this video!! As a Kirby and Steve main, I like the Video. Always.🎉🎉🎉

I think if ICs wasnt also standing stil then it was stalling

Man should've j jumped off and start on a better counter pick or sum; tragic

call it stalling or don't, this Zelda clearly didn't want to play the game with his opponent anymore so the TO solidified his decision by DQing him and moving on lol pretty cut and dry, if you ask me

Shorten the timer or explicitly state “no longer than x seconds of continuous inactivity, or a combined inactivity exceeding y seconds in a match”. Agree with the TO decision but it will prevent the issue from occurring again because what happens when a TO just allows it to go on, it’s their discretion so it’s cool per the rules.

Nahhh not stalling. There's a timer for a reason, and they aren't making their opponent face some insane risk/reward. Like all the ICs had to do was pressure slightly left of center stage and the Zelda would have to play the game. This isn't some Melee Peach on Kongo Jungle 64 type shit. Zelda doing that is basically taunting. If the ICs was a little rager maybe he gets mad at the teeter animation and does some dumb shit. It's all part of the game.

I agree it was pretty lame and may have been stalling. But the to went above and beyond on this one. He should have let them game play out then make a decision.

Bro this to was having none of that, bro just wanted people to run at each other

Change clock time

gonna suggest the heresy that is just lowering the Games timer. I also feel like it is a valid strat, but only in the sense that it cools people down so to speak because momentum is a very real thing. but i feel like it can get degenerate, at the ledge especially

at 7:00 I would argue there is a limit, and that is the timer. If the zelda player waited for 5 minutes they would lose the game. That's the clearest line that can be drawn, and both players would have full knowledge of this when waiting.

I don't think it was stalling, probably wanted to sd at first then took some time to avoid him and figure out a strategy, dont say 40 seconds is to long when you include his giving up time. It definitely takes me like 1 min or so. Plus they were using knight when they had the chance. It wasn't that unwatchable. Ive seen steve mine then minecart to the other side for 7 minutes on repeat.

Preach papa Hugs!

100% stalling. If you are behind, you gotta be the agressor, even if you don't want to.

Stopped watching when he said his opinion.

Based TO

Also, the Ice Climbers were ALSO stalling! It's BS how biased this TO is.

You can't say the strategy wasn't working when after a minute and a half the ic approached like a dumbass and almost got gimped to me if you're standing on the stage in neutral it's fair game stuff like pound stalling off /under stage, peach bomber under stage and flying under the stage as mk in brawl is stalling where characters can't hit you without sd or significant risk of sd. Not excusing the Zelda player for clearly being childish but to me that's still a free win and I'm down to wait the full 8 minutes to advance in bracket and when you really think about it all they're doing is wasting the precious time they have on this earth just to lose anyway and something about that makes these kinds of wins extra satisfying I don't want the t.o to take that away from me.

Hugs86

At this point either remove the timer or remove the stalling rule, otherwise it's illogical to have both. Edit: You claim there was no intention to engage but that is also true from the Ice Climbers' side, it takes 2 people to stall. This is only rewarding the person already winning so all you're doing is reducing the loser's options, people should learn to adapt to the gameplay not do it backwards 🤦‍♂

Absolutely right. That was blatant stalling, and tournaments can’t allow this, because tournaments can take a looooong time and won’t be fun to watch.

W

I dont see a player that is refusing to engage at ALL here . There NEVER was even 30 seconds where the zelda didnt hit the Ice climbers. he was just baiting him to approach and he hit him every time he did approach. and it was working , he was gaining % by doing this so I dont see any stalling here

Not saying the TO was right or wrong, I do not play Smash, however, why is there such hate against stalling timeout gameplay in Smash, while in the FGC similar attitudes exist, I cannot think of an instance of someone getting DQed for zoning?