Post Office investigator challenged over failure to follow up on 'glitches' in Horizon IT system 

The goal was to shut down criticism of Horizon. The investigators only had one idea, prove people guilty & ignore or not look into any proof of innocence

"In the absence of any evidence to suggest that theft had actually occurred, did this cause you to consider the possibility that the discrepancy could have been caused by the Horizon system?" - "Errr, no, it didn't". First class investigation skills right there.

When questioned, it's obviously causing them considerable difficulty to answer without immediately incriminating themselves and the Post Office.

“Knowing what we know now “ is code for “now I’ve been caught out”

Every witness from the PO has been appalling. And I daresay the environment has not changed much to this day.

"investigators", who only "investigated" in one direction.

Thank God Alan Bates had the confidence to fight. So many SPMs didn't stand a chance with these bullies.

Why are those investigators not serving life sentences, with no chance of parole?

The senior management team knew. Paula Vennels lied to parliament. Somebody needs to pay for this

They are so arrogant it is no wonder that they got away with such a thing. Birds of a feather flock together.

"Knowing what we know now". Er, the point of this inquiry is what you knew then. These people need to be charged with perverting the course of justice. Only prison sentences/removal of pension rights will concentrate the minds of these people in comfortable offices ruining the lives of others.

Jason Beer KC is a class act.. Its his forensic approach that will unravel all this duplicity. Well done Jason

So, he does not remember typing up a document that could have sent another person to jail. What a contemptible poor excuse for a human being.

These PO 'investigators' are sharp. As sharp as a MARBLE!

This bloke is an out an out liar. Had to be dragged there under threat of arrest.

Thats why I hate work, you have to deal with arrogant thugs like this on a daily basis and still keep your sanity

Imagine this guy, 20 years younger, swaggering full of power, in his well paid and secure employment, barging into your life and ruining it with glee. The stuff of worst nightmares which had to be lived by many. William Quarm, died as a not-indirect result of Raymond Grant's actions.

People might not think the system wasn't faulty if we told them it was faulty?

I cannot believe how arrogant these so called inspectors are still to this day, I think they actually believe they were infallible

In the UK we have a principal investigatory authority which is the police. We have a prosecuting authority which is the CPS. How on earth were this totally untrained and incompetent post office investigators allowed to carry out an investigation of this magnitude?

Having worked for Post Office Counters Ltd, Brighton, throughout the 1980s, I can vouch for the fact that post office managers are incompetent loons. Career progression in the Post Office is based on seniority and length of service, not on ability, and that has disastrous consequences. My first manager would go to the pub at lunchtime and come back two hours later blind drunk; my second manager, in the payroll department, knew sod all about payroll. So it does not surprise me that the Post Office never carried out due diligence on the Horizon system. I remember how my payroll manager would sit all day long, with nothing to do, neurotically chain-smoking and I am reliably informed that after I left for pastures new in 1990, Post Office Counters Ltd, Brighton were fined 60000 pounds by the Inland Revenue for non-compliance with the end-of-year (P60) procedures (I was the only person there who knew how to complete them).

It with be the 'biggest miscarriage of British justice' if the architects of this are not banged up...which won't surprise any hard working brit.

Hand is over/by his mouth while he is speaking. A common sign that an individual is being less than truthful.

Good job you can't be sent to jail for utter incompetence. We'd need thousands of extra jails. What absolute cretins !

They may have to build a new prison for this lot, HMP Horizon

“I can’t recall typing this document but I must have done because it’s got my name on it …” Shows how little importance he placed on the matter at the time (never mind that a man’s life and career was about to be ruined) and oh dear, how inconvenient it’s just surfaced and he’s been called to account for it.

Help desk, no one else has this problem, that's helpful isn't it.

Well done mr bates for being a complete British pain in the proverbial.

By god its appalling. I want to see at least a dozen jail sentences at the end of all this. Mass cover up at the PO.

These worms NEED to go straight to jail. Unfortunately, a massive cover up like this means lots of people in high power...a group hell bent on wriggling out by any means...including those who ultimately passed sentence - the judiciary. The government will apply 'pressure' so that the 'right thing' is NOT carried out !!!

As soon as he said "A nod or a wink" he lost me!

The Postmasters were internally investigated and charged by the Post Office, who had massive self interest in the case. If the cases had gone to a 'proper court' the standard of evidence and proof should have been much, much higher... The shameful thing is that the Post Office was allowed to cover up obvious problems with the unproven Horizon system, and ruin the lives of so many honest and hardworking post office staff.

Pathetic wee man way out of his depth now and unfortunately when he was “investigating”. You’ve got to wonder about the integrity and ability of his managers - well maybe no surprises…

Like Lord Arbuthnot said don't wait for the enquiry to finish police should start investigating now!! Don't waste any more time. The post office bosses are clearly out of touch not one of them have just said enoughs enough we've messed up. Good luck to all the postmasters and hope you get justice very soon those PO Bosses must be having sleepless nights now.

The help desk telling the truth was a problem 😡 what a scumbag

Just watched the TV series, unbelievable what these poor people went through, freaking disgusting and I hope everyone involved gets their karma. Lives were ruined and nobody in charge cared one bit, absolutely appalling!

Why would he jeopardise his BONUS?

Another not my fault scenario.

Jason Beer KC…..What a brilliant mind…o on the ball. These people don’t stand a chance if they’re lying.

Are we to believe that in all of those years, the help desk staff did NOT alert their management to the glitches? This fellow is just so full of it.

Corruption needs to be stamped out in any business full stop!

Where did the Post Office get these people from?

Jason Beer KC is deadly!

Come on cps. Time to bring charges against all of them; investigators, managers, CEO... This is most definitely in the PI to do

It would not surprise me at all if there are people who are, or were in the P.O. or Fujitsu, who are now considering their position in relation to this scandal, and who are now considering turning Kings evidence in order to obtain immunity from prosecution, or mitigate against a prison sentence.

Raymond has attempted to silence questioning of Horizon at the expense of peoples personal liberty! His priorities are clear to see...the corporate schill...protect my job at any cost! I wonder if the corporate cover up umbrella will cover them all? The questioning is pretty benign allowing them 'wriggle room'.

"Knowing what we know now". Call me cynical, but: Interrogator: "Herr Himmler, do you accept any responsibilty for the atrocities committed in your camps?" Himmler: "Well, knowing what we know now, I accept that some errors may have crept into the system"

INTEGRITY? Dont use big words that you do not understand. Abdsolutely appalling and they should all be in prison with no pensions

Telling people there are glitches is not an 'opinion' it was fact. And yet another one who needs referring to the local Memory Clinic.

Unbelievable that so many of these investigators & managers at the post office can't remember anything that might implicate themselves in fraud or wrongdoing but can remember other issues from the same time frame very clearly.

One issue has apparently been overlooked. The Post Office Investigator under questioning stated that not all reconciliation discrepancies showed a loss of money - sometimes there were surpluses! Whereas the automatic assumption was made that loses were down to postmaster theft what action was taken in respect of the supposed surpluses? Am I correct in thinking that the Post Office put down surpluses to a glitch in the Horizon system or maybe, unlikely perhaps, the postmasters awarded the unexplained surpluses? The rule appears to be within the Post Office that a reconciliation surplus should be regarded as a system glitch and could be ignored, whilst losses were postmaster theft. Surprised the Inquiry legal team haven't followed up on this point.

Thick as planks.

Every PO witness swore an oath to tell the truth. Pure contempt and lies.

"I don't know" , "I can't recall", "I was only following orders/doing my job"............anyone smell a rat??

Another waste of space. Couldn’t be bothered to carry out full & thorough investigations into missing monies and system glitches, and couldn’t be bothered to read the investigation papers & witness statements he was sent for this inquiry. But was happy to pursue individuals in order to feather his own bed. I can’t believe every single investigator was that dumb that they didn’t know what was going on and that they were playing their part in the cover up. Hence he was more concerned by help desk staff telling sub postmasters there was glitches with the system.

As it would appear the bonus scheme was recovery money driven there was an incentive to ignore evidence that would preclude the SPM having to pay back money that was not due. It would be interesting to see ab analysis pre & post Horizon bonus awards to these investigators (thugs).

Shouldn't this lying bully be in court for false allegations/perjury, he comes across as someone who is pissed on power.

KC Beer is a formidable questioner !!

They are guilty of perverting the course of justice,perjury, and fraud these corrupt evil people need to be behind bars for YEARS, the carried on with the vicious prosecutions long after they were aware of problems with the software .

Perverting the course of justice still carries a life sentence. Can Corporations receive punishment?

I feel so bad for all the post masters how they and their families have suffered for years . I saw an unterview with a current post master who said the errors are still hapoening today

Shocking every person interviewed so far in the post office should be considered for prosecution, absolutely no remorse and everyone of them, same story ……sorry not my job I did was I was told

Maybe if the Postoffice had been better prepared, then they would not have embarrassed themselves so easily

Partly through the full version of this. The background to why he only did a 2.5 page witness statement was amazing and pretty much summed up if he just said “Why are wasting my time, the guy was guilty”.

Why is he not in prison ???

He said "knowing what we know now". What does he know now that he didn't know before the TV drama? He doesn't mind putting an innocent man in jail, but when public opinion changes - he's all - I didn't know, I had to move house and I was sick.

Shocking, excuse after excuse. Perfect memory recall apart from anything that would incriminate himself.

This guy said he felt postmaster was guilty despite him being not giulty by trial. Should be locked up.

Cheers Mr Beer....🍻

Raymond Grant made a couple of interesting statements in his evidence. First someone on the Horizon Helpdesk confirmed system glitches in 2001. This caused Grant to express concern, this is ambiguous probably deliberately so. Second that PO legal training did not cover Scots Law and they, Scots investigators, were left to work it out for themselves. Must have affected quality of their evidence in meeting obligations Neither reflect well on the PO.

His and the rest of the rest of his colleagues' bank accounts and assets must be investigated. Having seen the other people summoned in this inquiry, there is a suspicion that the PO had a bonus scheme funded by the £££££ paid by the sub-postmasters. If this were the courts, one would urge the lawyer to ask, "Did your salary include a bonus scheme attached to this specific investigation?"

These people need to go to prison

It's the forgetfulness of all the investigators that throws me out. I hope some are banned from driving, as if they can't remember writing a witness statement 10 years ago, how can they remember the highway code eh ?! Elaine Cottam had a shockingly bad memory ... Are they coached to say that do ya reckon?

These Investigators did not do what they were supposed to - they just listened to other people’s opinions and then took it upon themselves to make sure SPM’s were charged by hear say. When you view this inquiry these witnesses do not seem to comprehend or listen to the questions asked by the lead counsel that are very clear and straightforward.

Send him straight to jail. He is lying and was only interested in protecting the Post Office.

Incompetent and complacent managers are the whole reason why British manufacturing industry collapsed as Japan and Germany re-industrialised in the 60s and beyond. And more recently, why did BT completely fail to control the exploding market for mobile phones? They were worrying about growth in landline business so they added the 1 to everybody's landline numbers. Now we see formerly great British institutions like the RIBA, The Ramblers and the BBC employing people for their skin colour and bringing a whole new level of incompetence.

Jail.

I can’t recall … help desk is not helpful… I can see where you’re coming from … bland statements indeed eh!

Please please please put these people in prison !!!!!!!!!!

I have watched a few of these interviews. Some of these people need to be doing some prison time and loosing there pensions. Those poor Postmasters that have lost everything and the effect on their families. I’m sick of hearing I can’t remember! Or I don’t remember writing that. It’s not good enough.

Oh yeah I can now see where you’re coming from….even though I was already aware of everything at the time. Slap on the cuffs now!

Glitches! Substantially more significant than that.

Well done Mr Beer. He wasn't so smug and self-righteous at the end of the last session and the beginning of this one.

He's sitting there hoping when his mooth opens he says the right thing. I think that the investigator needs investigated to find out if he knows what he's talking about because he looks clueless to me.

I have struggled to find any redeeming qualities in these Post Office Managers, Investigators and Lawyers. How such a morally deficit group of people were ever brought together under the same roof needs to be examined. 🤬

I think Mr Beer is brilliant

OMG!!!

I think he'd still like to see them prosecuted - arrogant and deluded!

My goodness, he is like a startled rabbit in a cars headlights. Squirming under questioning and so he should be.

The saga shows the very worst of the public sector and the very worst of the private sector. A nasty cocktail!

I'm an American watching this I've never seen so many people Gravel and squirm to Justify their lies

Wouldn't it be a real shame if failings in Grant's personal life were to come to light

The help desk telling the truth and he has a problem with that. What a chancer.

They are not going to sentence to prison all the implicated simply because there are too many, and because that would bring a too big political backlash to the select comitee members

These people are disgusting… stop their fat pension any bonus must be repaid… and a spell at his majesty pleasure. But as usual they will get away with it … the police have done FA as usual…

The investigators didn't want to know about glitches, they were getting their jollies taking people down.

The Truth is always a concern

The banality of evil …

SACK HIM NO GOLD PLATED PENSION EITHER

They didn't want their fancy new system to be criticized. They were protecting their image.