Post Office Scandal - Lawyer SAVAGES Prosecutors | Sky News 

They should be in jail on saltead water and mould bread..for 20 years.

@@anibalfernando3027Anything else equally valuable to add to the debate? 🙄

A lawyers job is to represent their clients, they don't prosecute they are the middle men. You clearly don't understand the legal system.

Michael Keegan, whose wife Gillian is the Education Secretary, was formerly the UK chief executive and chairman of Fujitsu, whose Horizon IT system was at the heart of the baseless prosecutions of sub-postmasters over two decades. as per daily mail. Michelle Moany woman PPE scandal.

@@pial3270 collusion and conflict of interests....

The NHS regularly has massive IT systems ordered and then scrapped. No-one in the NHS can tell the designers how the system works. It keeps changing (faster than you can write code) and has multiple failure points. They are still using pagers and FAX. They pay millions to Microsoft to support their creaking XP operating systems. It is a largely insoluble problem. Better to go modular (small working solutions that have a common data structure). They decided a few years ago to only have open source software. The current project is proprietary...

Follow the money.

I think democracy is wonderful.....😂

Yes sentenced probably and then have any postmasters jail sentence added to it as a deteret to any other scumbag that does this sort of corrupt and disgusting behaviour.

Good idea, it's a start. 💯

No they won't. I don't know why you expect decency or honour from them either.

@@kirkhunter146 Mmmm, you may be right. So ,where can we expect decency and honesty these days ?

And EVERY manager, investigator and solicitor who wrongly prosecuted these people!!!

If the newspapers won't do that then there should be a more local solution. Local papers and indeed the post office branch, if there is still one, should be forced to admit that a sub postmaster was illegally convicted. Communities should be made to face the fact that they are also responsible for hounding and persecuting innocent people on the say so of the PO and local media.

Thanks for this comment. The reports of bonuses are something we find particularly sinister about the whole thing.

Morning Joy …I a following this closely but I can’t find the information about bonus’s for the investigators my self. Can you point me in the right direction. Because if true, this would explain a lot. This would be the most despicable thing that I have heard. And we should be screaming from the rooftops to have the investigators pay this back in the way any sub postmasters had to do for money that they didn’t even take. It would explain a lot about the demeanour of that abhorrent investigator Bradshaw who still works for the post office.

@@johnycat7373it was revealed in the inquiry by Guy Thomas

I bet you if the Police where incentivised by cash bonuses for every arrest they made leading to a prosecution you would more of them on the streets working overtime for free and also arresting and prosecuting innocent people.

Cash bonuses to convict the innocent makes a mockery of justice and is not merely immoral but reprehensible. The law must be changed to restrict the right to prosecute the public to the CPS.

Very hard to argue with that.

We will be sure to send Joseph the message! 🙏

good question they where swift enough to lock up the little people. As the lawyer said the same standards should be applied to those responsible.

I am willing to bet that not one person does a single day in jail in this scandal. Look at the precedents....Hillsborough, Grenfell, the banking collapse of 2008 and many more going back decades! There IS no accountability in the UK for the rich and powerful.

Yes and rather sad that it took a TV drama for the government to act. It’s great that finally the public is angry about this story.

I signed a petition, years ago.

Correction: "little skint people".

Quick backtrack from Joseph on that one, but probably not inappropriate in the context!

Oops.....nevertheless apt..

That's what surprised me because the language was not professional

The interviews/interrogations were not recorded either and were conducted by a person whose use of the language was inadequate at best

It is good that you have re-iterated this. Indeed I recall some Appeal Court judgements have included the fact that the sub-postmasters were denied a solicitor in their so called PACE type interviews, conducted by the PO. Not only did the PO get the Horizon generated loss credited to a suspension account, that purportedly found its way to the PO profits, but the PO also got this shortfall credited to the account from the sub-postmasters own funds; but when these losses continued, and the sub-postmasters funds ran out; with the losses continuing and they could not pay any more, and after the court cases and their conviction(s), the PO went after them under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 - Civil Recovery Proceedings. It enabled the PO to recover sums due to it. What is also surprising is that in Northern Island (NI) where the law is different, IIRC that the NI Police service requested data and statements from Fujitsu; which were not forthcoming and the NI Police service would not progress the case to prosecute. However, according to the above Act, Proceedings can now be undertaken even if an individual has been found not guilty of an offence(s) during criminal proceedings. IIRC Module 4 interviews done recently did cover the NI cases and are online.

You cannot pardon Someone who has done no wrong!

Thank you for your comment. We hope that if there is adequate evidence against individuals and it amounts to a criminal offence or offences, then charges, trial and punishment follow, for the victims, not least to discourage institutions with the means to prosecute individuals from exercising that power irresponsibly in future.

Haha thank you for these kind comments! We will pass this onto Joseph, and hopefully it won’t go to his head. 😄

Thanks for this comment. We strongly agree with you.

@@MaryMonson You are most welcome. The TV Drama, actually made me cry, as a man I am not ashamed to admit that. It is just awful. Why, unless I have missed something has 'recompense' not been mentioned? We also live in the US, it would a huge payout if this happened there. Good Luck to you all and virtual hugs to everyone.

The suicides of these innocent people is a stain which court proceedings and successful appeals will tragically not wash away.

@@MaryMonson yes...people are now going to have to work extremely diligently to ensure that the words 'whitewash' and 'post office' are never now uttered in the same sentence. The consequences otherwise just don't bear thinking about.

Thanks for this comment. We agree that it's very depressing that it took a TV drama for government to finally try to show some semblance of action.

We hope there will be a ‘robust’ investigation and, where appropriate, prosecutions.

Thank you for this. Joseph will also be covering the whole mess on his TalkTV slot on Sunday at 5.

Thanks Michael. We'll pass your kind comment onto Joseph.

H9nestly think Fujitsu has more to blame the some lib dem mp. What about David Cameron who handed the cbe? Interesting how people in actual government aren't being targeted.

UK law always has been a joke. People talk about how the Magna Carta 1215 is the foundation the law is based on, but they choose to ignore the fact it was written in defense of the already wealthy and powerful and did nothing for the working class people. 800 years later we still experience the same 2 tier justice system because its the sons and daughters of the wealthy and powerful who oversee it. Its literally designed to protect them from us

The CPS said on Wednesday night that it prosecuted 11 cases that “involved evidence connected to Horizon” - three resulted in convictions while Sir Keir was in charge.

Evidence please, I’d like to see a credible source.

@@shazoids I do hope you are not going to try to defend the undefendable. 10 cases taken by the cps resulted in convictions 3 occurred while starmer was DPP How ever horizon said starmer is lying there was nearer a 100. People put in prison and suicides lives ruined what was starmer doing seriously he was head of the cps and did not prosecute anyone during the post office scandal he should resign ASAP in my opinion. Looks like starmer doesn't stand up for the victims.

Gary was a SPM from 2000-2014 - PO and RM split in 2012, but yes, you're still correct.

Thanks both for this. It’s better to remove it so there’s no confusion.

Actually I hate to say this it initially distracted me too. It is a kind of 80’s retro look which conjures up a a kind of "shark/Spiv image. But, let’s be fare. The moment he started speaking, I thought, I don’t care about what he is wearing. If I need a lawyer I want one like him who actually cares and is passionate about what he is doing.

Govs do this all the time.

Exactly. We elected a prime minister who openly lied, yet many thought that was somehow OK. The US look likely to re-elect one of the most dishonest unlikeable humans ever to disgrace this planet. Therein lies the issue, the majority of people in multiple countries simply don't bother to check, are not interested in investigating the truth unless it's presented child like in a conveniently packaged story. The media has a big role to play here too, unless you watched panorama in 2015 and a handful of tubers you'd not know this was happening at such a large and shocking scale. Of course it's clear that one of the reasons for this collective behaviour of both the PO and Fujitsu is that they were under pressure to increase the market value of the organisation in readiness for privatisation, and the horizon system clearly didn't fit that narrative. This goes beyond morally corrupt and lazy middle managers on those two corporations.

Thanks guys. Split was in the later stages of the relevant events but we’ve corrected it to avoid confusion between the two agencies.

Not true. Post Office Ltd was part of the Royal Mail Group until 2012.

@@auntiegc7880 But they ran as two separate companies, with their own management. Admin staff had had to choose whether they stayed with PO (which is where everyone started up to then, on the counters), or went with RM. The split stopped the automatic transfers and movement of staff between the two. From the off, they had different contracts, with different pay, and T&Cs, and career paths that were completely separate. Jobs stopped being internally advertised via one HR Dept. across the group, but were henceforth individually internally advertised by each company’s HR entirely separated from each other. As I mentioned, they were both still state owned, from that 80s/90s split until RM’s sale. The new arrangements stopped the standard, integrated operational role of the PO in the sale of postage and acting as mail collection points - overnight, that activity became contractual, with RM paying PO as an ‘external’ service provider. That contract was mutually exclusive, but is no longer. PO is now actively seeking contracts with other delivery companies to provide a similar range of services to those it provides to RM. It has recently signed such a contract with EVRI. The managements of each were entirely separated. Each had its own CEO, Board, and systems and tiers of management. And the split operated at a strategic level. The long term aims of each were entirely different, with no crossover at any level. It was intended by government that each would be privatised, but in the event, only RM was. PO is still state owned, and Royal Mail Group ceased to exist. As far as RM Group is concerned, this only ‘existed’ as a legal fiction, enabling RM to be registered as a plc, with PO ltd as a wholly owned subsidiary. It operated at a ministerial level, with a Board made up of the CEOs and a few senior managers of each, a few external non-executive directors, and the appropriate minister acting for the relevant secretary of state. It was essentially an oversight committee at a very high strategic level. From the time of the, if you prefer, internal split, PO and RM developed and commissioned their own operational systems. Of relevance here is Horizon, the cause of all the PO’s current legal difficulties. This was PO’s own baby. RM weren’t involved in it in any way, from beginning to now. It wasn’t something they needed, completely irrelevant in fact, just as RM’s mail collection, processing, and distribution systems are irrelevant to anything PO does. That is all.

Thank you for your comment. You’re of course correct. The reality is that even if they knew or asked for this information, it looks like they were at best apathetic, and at worst became enthusiastic for convictions beyond reason.

Thanks for this. We hope that the public keeps this horrible injustice and its innocent victims in their minds.

I agree. So important to not give up and assume things will never change. Maybe this is the time they will!

If you sanction The Post Office, think about the subpostmaster who, already having suffered intolerably, will suffer further. It is not The Post Office but its board of directors that should be punished and punished specifically.

No not just the directors. The whole corrupt business needs to be reworked.@@soutteruk1

Hello Neil. Thank you for your comment. You’re completely right of course. There’s a point at some point in those media events at which the sense of denial/obstinacy/arrogance becomes surreal and even seems to increase. We don’t want to prejudice proceedings against individuals, but we hope that where laws have been broken, and there is evidence, that results in criminal sanctions.

@@MaryMonson As Mr Justice Fraser said. "It amounts to the 21st century equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat" They certainly aren't thick enough not to have at least acknowledged, let alone be suspicious of the fact all of a sudden so many Sub-PMs accounts weren't balancing. Most with many years service, who had raised no suspension before, and up until Horizon, their books and accounts must have balanced. To me it just screams that something beyond the Sub-PMs was wrong. It must have done with at least some of those at Post Office HQ, but they chose to ignore it. Good luck. I hope justice is finally done not just for the Sub-PMs, but also for those who perpetuated these convictions.

Thanks for this Charles. We sincerely hope that justice eventually prevails in full.

Thank you for your question. According to evidence supplied to the inquiry, some used credit cards and others loans from family and friends once their own savings were exhausted. It was over a considerable period in some cases and so many slowly fell into debt.

They paid the money in, as there contract of employment said they had to make up any shortfall/deficits, most started with small losses that just continued to escalate

The remortgaged their properties, received funding from parents, cashed in pensions and took out loans.

Has he been confronted about this by any good journalist?

The best pin striped suit ever. I want one.

We will pass on both bits of feedback sir!

@@patchpeek Thank you! :)

Thank you. We’ll pass it on. The legal teams for these poor people who has suffered deserve the credit. ❤

We agree about that Michelle. Thank you for your comment. Britain isn’t perfect but it has a reputation for its tradition of fair play. Not in evidence in this sad and shameful story sadly.

@@MaryMonson I think the sad part is most of the people in the uk 🇬🇧 have only found out about this terrible situation through a TV drama .

Yes. A debt of gratitude to the people who saw that this was a story that they knew how to tell.

Probably just an AI construct.

Not strictly true. The 555 SPM had their High Court case financed by a litigation fund, Therium. The SPM were also told, from the outset, that once an award was made the backers would need to be paid back in full. It is because of the high costs of High Court cases that means that some cases may not make it to court without this type of financial backing. The PO agreed to pay costs of £58 million, without admitting liability, and compensation was therefore not awarded, interestingly the case was ended by consent. Of that payment, £46 million went to the financial backers, as was agreed at the beginning before the start of the group litigation. This meant that after legal costs the 555 SPM or claimants, were left with £12 million to share out, meaning some £21k to each litigant. An incommensurate amount IMHO to what they need to be recompensed with and compensated.

@@michaelhearn3052 so it cost £46 million in solicitors fee and that’s not a crime.

@@RJAH355 To reiterate, they, the 555 SPM were told that right from the start, and that was all the legal fees. Whilst I sympathize with your concerns at the legal costs levied, I am afraid that is is my understanding that because they bought the case to court they were responsible for the court costs and their own legal fees, barrister, solicitor etc. The PO costs were some £100 million IIRC. Your complaint about these costs should be directed towards Therium and you could ask for a breakdown of their fees, and why they are so high.

This is a good analysis Ian. This was about a system that allowed investigators and prosecutors to harass their victims and destroy their lives without supervision of their conduct. There is no culture in the UK of corrupt police or prosecutors being investigated or tried in court for withholding evidence or misleading parties in proceedings. Until that becomes part of the narrative, cases such as this will continue. Joseph

Nice try. Read the timeline.

@@TesterAnimal1 what timeline?

Ianbuchanan8359 You are quite right , there has been little or no blame attached to the Labour party for its roll in this affair, in truth not one of the political parties emerge from this with clean hands . The one telling thing to come from this is the fact that we , the public have a more accurate sense of government corruption , not one of the big three parties were willing to act on information they had concerning the Horizon system , their attitude was , let sleeping dogs sleep, the public and the media will move on to other concerns and forget about this scandal but it took a TV program to bring it back to the publics attention, even now if they could the government ,PO and the civil service would like to bury the whole thing , hopefully the media and public will keep pressure on untill those responsible for this disgraceful state of affairs are rightly brought to proper justice.

Thanks Gregor! We’ll pass it on to Joseph.

We’re not sure how to take that, so we’ll take it as a compliment. 😃

Not strictly true. The 555 SPM had their High Court case financed by a litigation fund, Therium. The SPM were also told, from the outset, that once an award was made the backers would need to be paid back in full. It is because of the high costs of High Court cases that means that some cases may not make it to court without this type of financial backing. The PO agreed to pay costs of £58 million, without admitting liability, and compensation was therefore not awarded, interestingly the case was ended by consent. Of that payment, £46 million went to the financial backers, as was agreed at the beginning before the start of the group litigation. This meant that after legal costs the 555 SPM or claimants, were left with £12 million to share out, meaning some £21k to each litigant. An incommensurate amount IMHO to what they need to be recompensed with and compensated.

Sad but apparently true. Thank you for your comment.

We will pass on the compliment, and assume it was meant in this way. 😅

Joseph says: Best comment of the day-day-d-d-d-d-d-d-d!