this is also why people who swear by vgc-only are idiots for screaming "but look!! pachirisu won once! so much more creative than stall-smogon!! >:(" they just dont understand tiering (or the game at all, really)
To me it's part of why Smogon > VGC. Like sure some things are banned, but it gives more options overall from both the balancing and the usage-based tiers
@selearth3123 tbf, vgc really does have more options than smogon. As a format it's more complex since you have way more options. That being said neither smogon or VGC really lack anything in the creativity aspect, so it's pretty pointless to compare them and say which one is "better"
@@hellothere2570 what do you mean with more options? Obviously in game there's more options, but Smogon makes up for it with much more options in the teambuilder (mostly due to some overcentralizers from VGC, say Flutter Mane, getting Smogon banned)
About tiering, before VGC there was Nintendo Cup. In Nintendo Cup 99 the Pokemon used by the top players in the previous tournaments were banned. This is quite similar to what Smogon does with UU, etc, and whilst I wasn't around at the time (I joined Smogon in Gen III), I highly suspect it was probably Nintendo Cup 99 that inspired the players at the time to make a UU tier. Back in those days most NetBattle players were Pokemon Stadium players, so I think it's highly probably they were aware of Nintendo Cup 99 and wanted to do something similar for 6v6. It would be fun if they did a VGC ruleset like that occasionally but maybe it wouldn't be very balanced.
They actually did that in SwSh as someone said. They banned the top 10 pokemon by usage for a month. Specifically: Venusaur, Gyarados, Porygon2, Tyranitar, Torkoal, Hippowdon, Magnezone, Togekiss, Excadrill, Whimsicott, Incineroar, Mimikyu, Rillaboom, Cinderace, Indeedee, Dragapult Spoilers: that was a disaster. They just got replaced by 10 different pokemon and the meta stayed exactly the same as far as what playstyles were good.
I used to play a lot of GO, and g-stunfisk was meta-defining for so long. Natural that things change but that feels crazy that it’s lost its place. I should check out updated GBL Pokémon rankings…
@@skeeeeeeter pretty sure it's still ranked rather highly , however current GBL and Competitive meta are very hostile for GFisk so it sees no play except for lower elo's
@@skeeeeeeter both Rock Slide and Earthquake were nerfed and water types have been continuously buffed, so Gfisk is at an all time low place in the meta. It's still very good on paper and it's very possible it makes a comeback eventually though.
Yeah, it was on top of the meta for a while, but they gave Gligar a ton of buffs, and Gligar both outcompetes Gfisk in its niche and destroys it if they match up directly, so there's little reason to run Gfisk anymore.
@@breakout8904 while i agree its also fun to call vgc a fake format in a similar manner as its fun for americans and british people to make fun of each other
singles and doubles are inherently different, but setting that aside, smogon and vgc have different balancing. GameFreak takes care of VGC balancing/regulations by handpicking rules, while smogon moves pokemon to different tiers
@@Will-zi6fnfair but generational gimmicks I’d say is the most major thing - megas were kinda too broken, mega kang was nerfed and eventually replaced with z moves, which players still don’t love due to unpredictability, then dynamax happened which was generally pretty popular and now terrastalisation, which is adored pretty much universally by vgc players as a fun and interesting mechanic that raises the skill cap. While singles players loved megas cuz “cool pokemon!!”, z-moves were a cool mechanic to help break stall, dynamax was despised as unbalanced and Tera still causes massive controversy about whether it is balanced or not and should be banned.
@@jamesfeng24 the reason tera isn’t seen as an issue in vgc is due to open teamsheets which display tera types reducing the unpredictability. That’s not something inherent to vgc, it’s only relevant to tournaments and serious competitive, which is why tera is just as much an issue on ladder in vgc as in smogon, but top players don’t complain about it because it’s irrelevant to them. Also people don’t complain about it as much in vgc because there’s no way for it to be beaned whereas in smogon it will actually be put to a vote so players actually get to choose.
@@jamesfeng24 also megas were a MASSIVE issue in vgc and the format could have benefited a lot from bans. That meta was extremely centralised and not healthy whatsoever.
Reminder that some users don't even play pokemon, but just browse for memes. This has lead to a lot of discussion posts getting turned into a game of "who can quote more memes?" As you can imagine, a lot of misinformation is spread constantly just because some meme that got 2k upvotes had it, so it must be true
Sometimes in Pokemon Go Competitive it's kinda good (in Galatian form), pokemon as a franchise it's too big and a lot of pokemon have very specific niches
@@Gold_Gamer_100 Indeed, but on the other hand...some of the Sunday memes are among the funniest things I've seen online, so I can't not frequent the sub
EV spreads are also more intricate in VGC due to turn order being a bigger factor. In singles you just need to outspeed one opponent, in VGC you may want to outspeed certain Pokémon but go slower than your partner. Trick Room is also a much more common strategy, which further lends to speed optimizations
So regarding stunfisk in pokemon go, it fell off recently but for a while Galarian Stunfisk was a top threat in great league and good in ultra league. Great League has a cap at pokemon with 1500cp and Ultra with a cap of 2500cp. G-fisk is pretty bulky in both formats, and it's moveset of Mud Shot+Rock Slide+Earthquake is really good. Mud shot generates energy quickly which allows it to get to it's charge moves quickly. It was a top 3 mon in Great League till Earthquake got nerfed somewhat recently. It's still good but it's generally outclassed by Gligar which is also a counter for it. Ultra is more of the same, though it's always been less common in that league.
To add on to this, in PoGo Pokemon can only have 3 moves (1 fast, 2 charged) so coverage is much more limited which makes ground/steel a good defensive typing and Gunfisk gets both ground and rock charged attacks which are very good for broad coverage. Add on it's a bulky mon in a system that inherently favors bulk and it was in a good spot. What put it over the top was getting a quick charging fast move with Earthquake and Rock Slide which were both good moves. It was incredibly poor foresight by Niantic to give it those and ultimately it necessitated both moves get nerfed, largely because of Gunfisk. IMO it was so unhealthy for the meta.
I liked this, I think you have a great way of explaining things in simple and straightforward terms that makes some things more accessible to people who may not be super familiar with certain things.
I really appreciate every new thing you’ve been doing. I know about maybe 5-6 months ago, I could just tell, that you were falling out of love with making vids for Pokémon. Just from the way you sounded to the words you used. That’s normal. Your response was incredible. You’re doubling down, and creating more refreshing content than ever before. We look at you as the know all end all Pokémon wizard. Of course you have incredible proven players but something about your videos just captivated us. I think if you could conglomerate everything into your FREEZAI brand, you’ll be a shoe in for biggest poke tuber.
I think the scattershot answering of misc questions is great! I don't play much comp Pokemon, but I enjoy hearing about it and learning about the meta.
About Stunfisk being good in Pokemon GO, here goes. In Pokemon GO, the battle system is about using Fast attacks that charge up energy to unleash Charged Attacks, which do from medium to a lot of damage when they connect. Each pokemon gets one Fast and up to two Charged Attacks. However, each player gets two shields to block any incoming Charged Attack - without knowing what it is. However, if the Pokemon has two charged attacks of different energy cost, this can possibly lead into baiting games. Specific quick attacks are instead balanced around doing a lot of damage and charging much less energy. The formats, outside limited metas, are Great League, Ultra League and Master League, and the entry into each format is decided by the game's CP system standing for Combat Power. The formats are at 1500, 2500 CP and no limit for Master. This value, in a vacuum, is generated by looking at the Pokemon's stats and a Gen 1 IV system. Attack is weighted very heavily, while Speed doesn't exist AT ALL and instead is used just as a slight CP modifier tied to attack. If two Pokemon select their Charge Attack on the same tick, the "speed" tie is actually determined by Attack stat. So why is Stunfisk good? First, the moves. It's moves are superb; it generates energy quickly and has two great charged attacks, allowing for both baiting potential and also hitting relatively hard with widely unresisted coverage. Second, the stats. Because its stats aren't really in attack or speed, the CP value it gets to allows it to get a lot more value out of its stats, because the bulk stats contribute to the number less. Bulky Pokemon tend to all be like this: their overall stat product is better than glass cannon types. Third is the typing; the typing is generally one of the better ones out there, albeit it's not the best at the moment due to Water and Fighting types dominating the metagames. Pokemon GO also has no recovery and no abilities, again lending itself to the relatively "boring" Stunfisk who doesn't have those tools in the main games.
Love seeing vgc get a shout-out from someone deep in the smogon meta! (Yes im aware freezai has done vgc tournaments but hes known for smogon more). I love good neutral takes that understand the vast differences between the 2 instead of writing one format off as boring because its not the one you play!🎉
Great vid! Which it was twice as long, though you might run out of questions as good as these pretty fast. One submission: how would you change Megas for the new game next year to make them less broken than gens 6 and 7
Another thing to consider on the EV spread topic is how having 2 opponents changes what hinds of roles are pokemon can have. For example, a special wall like Blissey would benefit from the most HP and SpDef possible to better deal with opposing special sweepers. In a 1v1 scenario this works because you can guarantee through your good play that the Blissey never has to deal with a physical attacker. In VGC there’s no reason why your opponent couldn’t just bring in a physical attacker next to their special attacker and knock out Blissey while still threatening the other members of your team with the special attacker Blissey was supposed to handle. VGC being 2v2 commonly necessitates running a spread that misses out on some of the potential potential strengths of a mon in favor of making it less exploitable in the places it struggles, and it’s the balancing act of maintaining as much strength as possible while not immediately folding to unexpected matchups that creates these more complex spreads.
As a matter of fact, Blissey's almost always runs physical investment on singles too, since their defense is so low to begin with. For instance, a Bold Blissey with 252 EVs on Def more than doubles its defense (61 to 130), whereas a Calm Blissey with 252 EVs on Sp Def only gives it a 20% increase to that stat (336 to 405). Not to mention how it's generally not a good idea to run 252 HP on the account that the difference it makes is like, less than a 10% increase to it's overall bulk.
If looking up a stat of some pokemon was considered cheating that would be wild, Can't expect a casual player to know every stat and move of every pokemon.
"A broken Pokemon only occupies 1/4 of the game state instead of half" is a really good way to put doubles into perspective. Big reason why so many "banned to Ubers" Pokemon aren't even considered worth using in VGC. I do like the question + answer type videos, you have good insight into these things.
Stunfisk went crazy in go! Bulky which is inherently advantageous because of the level system, good typing, and a great move pool that allows it to fire off charge attacks with good coverage like muddy water and rockslide
5:23 the only time I’ve ever done a variation of this, was a Scarf Lando-T I made it just able to outspeed, the fastest none scarfed mons in the tier, and added some physival bulk to it.
The fact that the debate is "VGC vs. Smogon" makes me realize that few people care about the in-game 3v3 single battles format, which is kinda sad because that format has some fun nunaces that you don't get in Smogon
The way you describe Smogon vs VGC is like Yugioh vs other card games. One bans things if it gets too powerful. While the others have a rotating format (though other card games do have a banlist it's not as big as Yugioh's banlist). And i guess you can say VGC does ban Pokemon which are the mythical pokemon since they are event locked and would give people an advantage if they were allowed. Great video btw
Another thing on the VGC EV spreads is the fact that these people are playing for money and fame. VGC is more popular than singles- it’s what’s live streamed on the Pokémon channels and it’s the event thousands of people pay to attend. And for that, people will spend hours crafting the perfect EV spread to take full advantage of their Pokémon’s usefulness. Flutter Mane doesn’t NEED max special attack on its specs set to pickup the knockouts it needs; Incineroar doesn’t need max Sp.Def or Defense to take the hits you need it too; Urshifu doesn’t need max attack. While it’s easier to just slap a 252/252 spread onto a mon, groups of 5-6 people all playing for a cash prize will hop on the damage calculator to craft a spread that doesn’t waste a single stat point. Smogon tournaments, on the other hand, doesn’t have this level of fame and the cash prizes aren’t consistently high. So, spending hours in the builder to craft the perfect spread isn’t justifiable and so the most common spreads are 252/252, or a spread that reaches a specific speed tier before dumping the rest of your stats. Not saying that SPL players are lazy, bad, or unskilled- simply saying that it’s less justifiable to craft the perfect EV spread especially taking into account the points freezai brought up.
personally i like VGC's double battles a lot more than singles. It opens up far more interesting strategies that are simply not possible in a single battle format, and it gives a home to a lot of supportive and defensive pokemon that simply cannot function 1v1. Also, I would add that not only are there fewer broken pokemon, but there are simultaneously fewer truly "bad" pokemon as well, since you have the advantage of always having a teammate covering for them. This is a format where both Clefairy AND Landorus-T are both viable. But man. They REALLY need some kind of official battle simulator or something like Showdown.
the one thing that i like about smogon is that almost every pokemon has a place to shine for example no one will use a Mismagius or Gengar over Flutter mane but in smogon you can use Gengar in RU Where it can shine
Can confirm stunfisk and even more so galarian stunfisk are excellent in pokemon go. Without going into too much detail, pokemon that have a proportionally large amount of their base stats put into bulk tend to be good in go (i.e. bastiodon, registeel, cresselia)
I used darkrai in a gen 7 ubers draft league and i loved it. Pretty sure i never used dark void though and i think i had a few opponents try to bring sleep talk vs me. My favorite set i ran was sd sucker drain punch vs a blissey team
I'd love to hear a video about "What if VGC had a UU Tier?", if you thought that would be interesting to make. I actually think these sorts of lower-tier battles would be really popular on-cartridge amongst groups of friends, as long as you could find some way to explain it to a 9-yr-old.
If you watch the opponents counter go down, they’re probably unsure of what move to make. But if it doesn’t, they’ve already chosen a move and using this information, you can predict what the opponent will do. Logical moves are made quicker and strategic moves are made with more time spent.
In ADV, without special physical split, a lot of mons decide to take the mix approach like Mence or even Gengar with Explosion. That’s why you see more carefully crafted EVs in gen 3, while gen 4 onward is usually just 252/252/4 spreads most of the time.
Me personally with VGC I feel like it could do with some mons entering the restricted list *cough* *cough* urshifu but overall it's a pretty good official format
*Specific scenarios* is why I fully appreciated SubDance Gyarados and the otherwise bizarre EV spread it used once upon a time. That thing had carried me many generations of Singles.
Tbh Ubers or gen3 also has the same thing with ev spreads often being really complex. It's also a sign of more limited metagames, where you can reasonably expect to fight a certain threat almost every battle so it's much more useful to prepare for that specific encounter rather than going for generalist approaches.
6:30 ill also add that at lv 50 cus of how natures round you can find stat “bumps” where the next 8 EVs give 2 stats instead of one for the stat with the nature buff. This doesn’t happen at lv 100, so in VGC people will often EV exactly to get to these “bonus” stats
There's another reason for the more simplified EV spreads in smogon. In the current gen 9 OU metagame, there are 42 OU ranked mons with more than 5% usage that you can expect to run into frequently. Most teams also include 1 or more mons from lower tiers. This means that complex spreads to gain an edge in specific scenarios is a lot of work for very little reward, and it may even be a detriment in one of the many scenarios you didn't account for, particularly when combined with the reason freezai gave. Compare that to gen 3 OU, which only has 27 OU ranked mons and is mostly dominated by 5. In that metagame, somewhat complicated EV spreads are that gain an advantage against them (or them against mons likely to switch into them) as that is far more reliable for the work put in. There are still a few cases where complex EV spreads are useful in gen 9. Booster energy boosts the highest stat of a paradox mon, which are everywhere in the metagame, and you sometimes need to fiddle with it a bit to get the boost you want. The other reason to tweak EVs is speed since you chip damage doesn't affect it (shocker), and if you beat certain speed benchmarks, additional EVs in it are wasted until you break the next one. It's particularly useful if you're using UU or lower ranked mons in OU as you don't have to worry about mirror matchups. I personally enjoyed using leafeon in sun teams with chlorophyll which is EV'd to just barely speed booster energy Iron valiant which is the fastest unboosted mon in the tier. Has that ~10 hp addtional HP I got by spending my EVs there instead of speed ever mattered? Honestly, I don't know if it has, probably not, but little optimizations like that are a large part of the fun in my opinion.
to elaborate a bit on the point about simpler EV spreads in singles-that’s not necessarily always the case, especially in older gens. the gen 3 metagame in particular has enough depth and specific interactions that have been established throughout the years to where lots of complex EV spreads are used and viable on pokemon like tyranitar, swampert, and gengar. in newer gens, power creep and not having years for the metagame to stabilize make that less common
So in pokemon go bulk is what and moves is what makes a pokemon good. It's not turn based so you constantly deal chip damage to your opponent via "fast moves" they also simultaneously help charge your "charge moves". In that meta surviving one extra hit allows you to throw out an extra move and deal more damage overall. That's why bulky pokemon, Creselia, Registeel, Annahilape, Lickitung and Stunfisk are good.
Galarian Stunfisk is Pokémon you see a lot in Pokémon Go. If you’re winning a lot of games with a fairy type Pokémon you’ll eventually run into a team that uses either Galarain Stunfisk or Steelix. Stunfisk seems to be more common to me
I prefer VGC because it allows for some rare instances where bad Pokemon can contribute and become champions. Hell, look at Pachirisu, that thing won't EVER actually win any singles battles unless something carries it, but in VGC it's won a World Championship and was meaningfully helping in almost every match.
Both Stunfisk in Pokémon go is S tier is great league (1500 cp and less) and ultra league (2500 cp and less) for there amazing typing, move pool, and better then average starts. Bring good in both gl and ul is borderline never heard of, it’s basically just Fisk and swampert
