Problems With Lateral Flexion 

You're welcome Diane. Regards to everyone in Ontario.

I'm sure you'll get it sorted out now that you know what you are looking for. Good luck.

Thanks David.

Ross' incorrect method won't fix that either. Your horse will just swing its hind quarters away from the rein as an automatic response and you'll still hit the branch. And your horse will be at a disadvantage for learning every other maneuver that requires an inside rein cue. You will be better off using all of your proper aids for a turn, even a slight turn to avoid a branch, not just picking up the inside rein. The lateral flexion is a great and correct start, now take your horse to the next level.

Rancho Bravo Thanks for the input! I appreciate every morsel of knowledge I can get!

Thanks for your comment. With regard to turning the disengagement into an engagement, it first comes from a horse's mind being ready to respond. With that in mind you might think about asking for an engaged forward as your horse comes out of the hhq disengagement. As the inside hind reaches across and under the centre line, ask for forward or a rein back or a forehand yield - anything that says to your horse "be ready, we are about engage your motor." Don't make it predictable so that the horse anticipates your next request, but ask enough so that your horse mentally stays focused and prepared to use itself correctly. I hope that answers your question.

Thanks Ross. That's very helpful!! I appreciate your feedback---it follows right from what I was asking.

Except that he is completely wrong.

Hi Calvin. Thanks for your question. My problem with lateral flexion largely is due to the fact that it is taught to young horses BEFORE they have learned to follow the feel of the inside rein correctly with all 4 feet. This ultimately is the problem. So if your horse has learned to follow the feel of the inside rein correctly, then it is a small matter of adjustment to use the concept to lateral flexion, outside leg or whatever you want to use to direct the hindquarters in a way that helps you horse be a better cutting horse. This is because once the horse has learned to follow the feel of the inside rein to direct the hindquarters it can be applied as needed to ensure the horse maintains balance and straightness. The horse won't unlearn to follow the feel of the inside rein, he'll just other layers of understanding and complexity of aids on top. I hope I am being clear enough. Cheers Ross

Thanks Ross, that is crystal clear. You have explained what i was thinking but couldn't quite grasp the mechanics of. In terms of a cutting horse, I think I have been viewing the processes required as countering each other, whereas I can see now that they can be taught as two different processes. To start with, yielding to the feel of the rein and then later on follow the feel of the rein coupled with outside leg means flex to look at the cow but don't yield the hind quarters. This is by the by, but you worked my young horse QH, Rusty, at one of the Wyuna clinics and you took a bit of a shine to him. He's all grown up now starting out on his ridden life. PS i have also just watched your video on straightness the not overdoing the outside rein. It was very good thankyou. I would love to have the opportunity to work with you again one day on some ridden work. Cheers Calvin

What advantage does insisting on the feet not moving offer a young horse that is yet to understand how to follow the feel of the reins? That is the question that I can never get a clear answer on from advocates of LF. In what world does a person ever want to flex the neck and it not connect to the feet. Why is LF useful? A tool for what? What practical purpose does it serve?

Kudos to you for not following the mainstream, and for thinking outside the box. My journey has taken me in circles on the topic of LF. I’ll share a few of my beliefs. (I work with going horses, troubled horses, and unhandled horses.) You asked “In what world does a person want to flex the neck and not connect to the feet.” How about cow working?!? Pointing your horse’s nose at the cow carries a lot of meaning. Yes, I need to be able to point his nose (flex the neck) and NOT move the feet OFTEN. Just because you’re not asking the feet to move, doesn’t mean you’re not asking for the horse to adjust his entire posture-lift the base of the neck and shift his weight toward the hind. I start working toward that response 1 rein at a time (LF) and work toward using both reins (soft feel). A lot of folks don’t use a soft feel in a correct, productive way either but, that’s a whole other can of worms. I don’t want my horse to automatically “disengage” the hind every time I ask him to flex. I’m working on ENGAGEment, too! Other reasons LF is useful - to diagnose physical or mental blockages. With quality lateral flexion, you can determine which vertebrae in the neck is stuck, and get it freed up, thereby promoting correct movement. I’m sure you’ve visited with Harry about the importance of ‘head twirling’. In my book, that’s LF, you’re just not asking for the entire neck. Recently, a friend posted this on his FB page, “There are many pieces to quality in lateral flexion. It’s a lot more than just bending the neck around. For example, you don't want to disconnect your reins from the horse's feet (especially the hind feet) but, you also don't want a "conditioned response" where the horse anticipates moving his hind as soon as you pick up the rein. Instead, you want your horse hooked onto your thoughts enough to read your intent, "Does my person intend for me to stay still, or move my feet." Because many clinicians don't discuss the pieces of QUALITY lateral flexion, some other clinicians end up completely disregarding this movement! Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water:-)” I’ve seen this friend ask a horse for LF and, without changing his hand on the rope, he’ll change his intent “now move your feet”….. “stop your feet” ….. “move your feet”… “stop your feet”…. IMO, there’s a whole lot more to “feel” than just the feel on the rope. To him, LF is a great exercise to see how mentally ‘hooked on’ your horse is. Is he really listening THAT closely? I understand why you’re encouraging people to get the reins connected to the hind feet. Waaay too many people miss that piece. But, to me, it goes a lot deeper.

Ross Jacobs I've used it as a way to calm a horse down. doing LF along with DS and creating that association and it works really well. Also it is the beginer to the 1 reign stop. But still I see where you're coming from and maybe it's something I'll start being more mindful of.

Sinead, I didn't talk about it in the video but I urge you to be careful about using the 1 rein stop. Some horses need to move their feet when anxious and teaching them to or trying to get them to stop can turn a worry into a panic. A feel a better approach is to disengage the hq, but not insist on them stopping. Just allowing them to yield their hq over and over until the urgency subsides is enough to keep you safe. But if you try to get a horse to stop when it feels the need to move, there is a chance they will flip over or bolt in a sideways panic - I've seen it happen. Cheers

It is a tool for inexperienced riders to slow their horse down when they feel out of control. That is not a bad thing, if applied before a horse gets up to speed.

I was not picking on anyone in particular, it was just that I easily found a clip of Linda doing a LF and not one of Pat. The point I was trying to make was that the vast majority of trainers teach LF, including most of the big names with the biggest reputations. I just used clips of those in the video because they were the first ones I found that a lot of people would know their names.

He is not out to criticize anyone, just to give examples of the trainers who teach LF while standing still.

I think you miss the point that when you teach LF to a young horse and insist on the feet not moving, you kill the connection of the reins to the hq. Even if you then teach the hq to yield (usually this is done by apply inside leg) the reins still do not influence the horse any further than the wither. This causes the problems I highlighted in the video. It's almost an epidemic in the horse world. But in addition, there is no advantage gained by asking a horse to not move its feet - not one single thing. Whereas, by teaching the hq to yield in response to the inside rein some major problems are avoided. I'll be doing a video soon on outside rein through the turns and the reason people use the outside rein is in large part because of the LF they have taught the horse beforehand. As I said in the video, nothing is gained by insisting the feet are still and some problems can be instilled which later have to be addressed. It's best to avoid those potential problems from the start by not teaching LF, but teaching hq yield to the inside rein (without leg).

No, I still disagree. You don't kill any connection to the HQ, you teach 2 different things. One is flexing without moving the HQ and the other is flexing and yielding the HQ. 2 seperate lessons. For me, reins are for direction and guidance, our legs are for movement. I don't ever want to lift a rein and have my horse move off without asking him to with my leg. If every time you put pressure on just the rein and your horse yields, what happens if they somehow got he bridle come off an ear or something like that. To fix it, you would be going around and around in circles. I think flexing without moving is MOST important to get your horses focus on what you are doing and have their focus with you before asking them to move off. I'm sure your way can work too but I prefmine.

It's okay that I don't change your mind. But if we had a horse in front of us to demonstrate with, I know I could show you the problem and it would cause you to stop and think. But most of the training world agrees with you. I use to agree with you. But I have moved on for good reason. BTW, you still have not explained what is the advantage of insisting the horse's feet do not move while flexing the neck. What does a horse learn from it that provides a practical advantage or is of use in riding? When do you ever want a horse's neck bent and not move its feet?

I explained a couple of practical uses in my previous comment. Perhaps you didn't read it all. One practical use is having your horses mind connected with you, focussed on you and not snatching his head away to focus on something else, another could be adjusting the bridle while on board without going round and round in circles, or rubbing on his face, but mainly for having his attention on what I am doing, before I decide we move off.

And, it's not so much, I insist he doesn't move his feet.... I teach him when to and when not to move his feet

Firstly, when disengaging the hindquarters using the right rein the hindquarters should move left a step or two. In order to do this correctly the weight MUST and SHOULD shift to the shoulders (specifically the left shoulder). This is the correct way of performing the move. To not shift the weight to the front end would place undue strain on the hindquarters and make it harder to disengage the HQ. Disengagement requires lightening of the hindquarters. Secondly, a horse should be able to load the forehand or hind end at the request of the rider. There are many movements where shifting weight to the front end is required (eg, turn on the forehand). Not all movements require the horse to shift weight to the hindquarters in order to be correct. Loading the forehand or the hind end should both be available. Without that availability you doom your performance to mediocrity.

@@RossJacobs There are several goals in lateral flexation. 1) to promote no resistance to pressure. 2) Lateral Flexation is asking the horse to stay loose on the top end..but has to do a (side contraction of its side neck and body muscles to get the release. This involves 2 neural signals from the brain. The first is for the opposite muscles to relax prior to engaging the flexed side muscles. If they do not....that is what is causing the stiffness. The later flexation builds muscle strength in the neck, top line and sides. This aids balance in motion.

@@philvinet4145 there is not a single benefit gained by lateral flexion that requires the hindquarters to be still. Not one! But by requiring the feet to be stationary creates a disconnect between the inside rein and the hindquarters which then causes crookedness in the turns and circles. It also means that to direct the hindquarters using the riders inside leg requires a driving pressure and not a directing pressure. You claim that lateral flexion aids balance in motion is wrong. The opposite is true. Balance and straightness in a turn is achieved when the inside hind foot is connected to the inside rein. When you don't do this you create crookedness that then must be corrected by using additional aids.

Rancho Bravo, if you understood the concept that the inside rein is about directing a horse's thought and the thought directs its feet, then you'd see the logic of the hq yield to the inside rein without the rider's inside leg being applied. And you'd understand why the lack of yield of the hq causes horses to be crooked in their turns and circles. Those things you mention (eg one rein stop, standing still at mounting, half pass, etc) have nothing to do with teaching lateral flexion without the hq yielding. I have just spent the last 2 weeks teaching people who were taught lateral flexion and separating the rein aid from the inside leg aid and every single one of them came away convinced how irrational and unnecessary lateral flexions are and the importance of the hq yielding to the inside rein. If you came to a clinic one day I am sure I can convince you too with a little demonstration. I have never failed to help people see the problems lateral flexion causes.

I think I understand your logic that you direct the horse's feet (actions) by influencing his mind. I disagree that the inside rein should direct the horse (or influence his thoughts) to move his hind quarters and I contend that the opposite is true. The inside rein should NOT move the hindquarters, in all of the examples I listed above, and I can't think of a single instance in which I would want to direct the thoughts of the horse to move his hind feet over when I pick up an inside rein. Furthermore, since I do not want the horse to move his hind as a response to the inside rein, I specifically teach him NOT to do so, and it begins with lateral flexion without moving the hind end. The things I listed have everything to do with teaching lateral flexion without moving the hind. They are all built upon those first lessons with lateral flexion and they are all times that I want the horse to flex or bend to some degree laterally and NOT move his hind the other way. To elaborate further on my examples, when I do a 1-rein stop, I want the horse to STOP; cease moving his feet. I do NOT want the horse to turn circles on his forehand (yield his hind around due to the lateral flexion). When I flex a horse to mount, I want him to keep his feet still, not move his hind end around (this is particularly useful for young and inexperienced horses and horses that have bad habits while mounting). When I do a halfpass, I want the horse to move forward and sideways and I want him bent in the direction of travel. I do NOT want his hind end to kick out the opposite direction or trail too far behind. When I ask for a rollback, I specifically do NOT want the horse to swing his hind end around. When I ask for a lead departure, I specifically want the hind end to move IN THE DIRECTION OF THE BEND, not the other way around! The inside rein should not move the hind end. Everything that I mentioned are maneuvers that require the horse to bend laterally and NOT move his hind end away the opposite direction, especially as an automatic response. I can't think of any times that I would actually want that response (moving the hind away) to an inside rein. Can you give me examples of the maneuvers your horses perform in which you pick up an inside rein and expect the horse to move his hind end out the other direction?

I understand that you want your horse to be able to bend without moving his hq and that the inside rein should not move his hq BUT what you want is incorrect. For all the reasons stated in the video, you should not be teaching what you are teaching because it leads to incorrectness (as the least of the problems) and possibly dangerous behaviour (in the worse case of the 1 rein stop). I teach halfpass in the same way most people teach halfpass. But it begins with teaching a horse to respond to the inside rein and disengaging it's hq. When that is consolidated in a horse, then I separately teach it to yield the hq to my legs. Once this is established halfpass is simple for the horse and a non-event. You have to remember that a rider's leg is an incredibly crude form of communication and does not allow the subtleties that the reins do. So by teaching the reins to connect to the mind first separately and then the legs later I can make minute adjustments to the hq to establish correctness and straightness. It's possble to teach a horse halfpass your way (and most people do) but it makes many degrees more difficult for the horse to connect his thought and therefore his feet to the movement.

Well, first of all, what I want is not incorrect at all. It is correct because that is what is required of the horse in order for it to perform each of the maneuvers I listed. What you are proposing is incorrect in all of the maneuvers and I can't think of a single time when it would be correct. I'll ask you again if you can point out a maneuver a horse would perform in which you pick up an inside rein and expect the horse to move his hind end out the other direction, as you propose in your video. Secondly, let's address the problems you mention that you believe are caused by teaching lateral flexion that is not connected to moving the hind end. I mentioned this in my original comment, but I'll go ahead and go into more depth here since you brought it up again. 1. Dangerous behavior. You contend that teaching a horse to flex laterally without moving its feet leads to a horse that will bolt with its head and neck bent. I will argue that any horse can do this any time, regardless of what method you've used to teach it to flex, and that flexion is NOT the cause of the bahavior, but rather fear and reactiveness (and maybe some lack of respect for the rider) is the cause. This is a bolting problem caused by fear, not a flexing problem caused by training. I'll go even futher to state that teaching the 1-rein stop to a horse that bolts is an effective (if not THE MOST effective) way to stay safe and get the horse stopped should that horse bolt. To be fair, your method would likely be effective as well in getting the horse stopped or slowed down in the event of a bolt, but would still be incorrect for any maneuvers you would want a horse to perform during normal riding. To fix this problem, one must go to the root of the problem - fear, and address that. The 1-rein stop or lateral flexion does not cause bolting and is, in fact, an effective & safe way to deal with a bolt that does occur. 2. Falling in or out on a circle. There are two main reasons a horse would do this, neither of which are caused by flexion. He either, one, has some place that he wants to be and is gravitating toward that spot, or, two, he is a horse, naturally and for millions of years evolved to be "crooked." Starting with the former, the cause is not flexion. The cause is the horse's desire to be in a particular place (e.g. the barn, his stall, other horses). So when he's on the side of the circle near his desire, he'll drift out of the circle toward his desire, and when he's on the side of the circle further from his desire, he'll drift inside the circle toward his desire. The cause is his desire to be "over there" and the cure is to convince him that "over there" is not better. Nothing to do with flexion. The latter is the natural way of every horse and not caused by flexion, training, or anything to do with the human at all. The cause is that, since he is a horse, he is naturally stronger on one side and weaker on the other, allowing him to move more easily in one direction than the other, and causing his shoulder to either bulge out of the circle or fall in on the circle (this is crookedness). The cure, which some would argue is never complete, is to help the horse to develop his muscles evenly on both sides so that he travels "straight" going both directions. It goes against his nature, like a right handed person suddenly learning to write with their left hand. Ironically, just like with the bolting, flexion is an important part of improving a crookedness problem, but does not cause crookedness. This subject of crookedness can get pretty complex and is beyond the scope of this youtube comment, but I'll leave you with three quick articles that go into a little more depth on the cause and correction for crookedness. I hope you'll give them a read. equinefreelance.com/free-articles/turning/ www.meredithmanor.edu/features/articles/faith/bulging_out_falling_in.asp www.walterzettl.net/falloutshoulder.html Lastly, you mention teaching the halfpass (in which it would be incorrect for the horse to move its hind quarters away from the bend), and therein, give support to my very point. You teach the horse to flex laterally (in your incorrect fashion), BUT then you teach him to yield independently off of your legs (presumably toward the bend), so that he can perform the maneuver correctly. He can't possibly do a halfpass correctly if he's disengaging his hind quarters away from the inside rein. The way I (and most people) teach the horse is to teach it to flex & yield independently from the very start and to NOT move the hind quarters away from the inside rein (which is the horse's natural tendency), because we never actually want him to do that. Teaching the halfpass (and other maneuvers) is not difficult if you've laid down the proper foundation leading up to it. All you've done with your method is teach the horse an extra, unnecessary, and incorrect step, for the wrong reasons, that he will never use in any application and which he has to later unlearn.

Rancho Bravo, thank you for your long response. I appreciate the time you must have put into it. However, I will try to be much briefer in addressing your points one at a time. 1." I'll ask you again if you can point out a maneuver a horse would perform in which you pick up an inside rein and expect the horse to move his hind end out the other direction," Simple, a balanced circle or any turn requires the hq to yield in the opposite direction to the inside rein, ie the inside hind steps forward and slightly to the outside for the horse to remain balanced on a circle or turn. 2. The 1-Rein Stop. The 1-rein stop is potentially very dangerous because it attempts to shut down the hq. There are some horses that are desperate to move when worried and by try to use the 1-rein stop to prevent that movement can cause panic or near panic leading to horses rearing, falling over etc. I know this because I seen it several times. Instead, flex the horse and allow the hq to yield will minimise the risk of panic and at the same time inhibit the horse's ability to buck, bolt or rear. It is not possible to ensure a horse won't have a freak-out at something terrifying. So it is impractical to talk about taking care of the fear as a "fix-all" solution. If you have horse incapable of extreme behaviour then you have done something horrible to it no longer a horse. It's in their DNA. 3. Crookedness in the Circle. I think this is the basis of the disagreement we are having. You appear to believe that the rider with use of the reins, seat and legs control the balance, movement of the feet and posture of the horse. None of that is true. The brain of the horse controls these things and all we do as riders is transmit our intent to the horse's mind. When the inside rein tells the horse to look, think and focus to the inside then it will be balanced. The horse's thought controls the movement and you are missing this point. It is the job of the inside rein to influence and direct the horse's thought. When that happens things like inside leg and outside rein are redundant. But until you understand and accept that you and I will never be in agreement. I recently has a woman come to a clinic who had the same belief as you and was incredibly skeptical. But I rode her horse and she had a major epiphany about the importance of the inside rein connecting to the hq and that change her view put there by 30 years of instruction. 80% or more of crookedness is caused by resistance due to an inability of the rider to direct a horse's thought. 4. Half-pass. You are confused about my views regarding teaching half-pass. I don't think it adds anything to the discussion other than to say that a horse is capable of moving the hq both away and in the same direction as the flexion, depending on how it is presented. You seem to feel that if you teach one thing, a horse is incapable of also giving a rider the other. This is not correct. It's like saying if you teach a horse to disengage the hq you damage their ability to engage the hq. It's just not true. Thanks for you input.

I'd be very interested in hearing what you know about the benefits of lateral flexions that I don't. Even though none of the couple of dozen professional trainers I have asked (including many of the biggest names) have not been able to provide a good explanation, I assume you have rationale explanations of why bending the neck laterally, while keeping the feet stationary, is a good idea. Please explain.