Purgatory is Worse than Trent Horn Realizes

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In this video, I respond to Trent Horn's defense of purgatory in his debate with James White. I argue that his view requires a commitment to a fully retributive vision of purgatory, unlike his defense of a medicinal view of purgatory. This poses deep tensions and incoherencies when we compare purgatory and penance to Baptism and the way the merit of Christ is distributed. I hope this video is helpful to your ongoing reflection on these issues!
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6 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 83

@matheusdabnei5540 5 месяцев назад

Best video of your channel. Absolutely amazing! Thank you!

@smccarthymi 6 месяцев назад

This was very helpful. RC apologists do need to be taken to task for what their own Magisterium teaches, because they often represent it in a way that Protestants actually haven’t rejected. Purgatory seems like a strong case in point. May God reunite his church with a clearer view of holiness and salvation.

@HarryNicNicholas 2 месяца назад

lol. i can;t get over how you sound like it's all real. what happened to limbo anyway, did they build a ballroom or a casino or something in it's place when they knocked it down?

@jaredanderson9842 6 месяцев назад

Great video. Thank you- this was very helpful as I just watched this debate today! I appreciated you touching on the Catechism of Trent, but it would have been also helpful if you interacted with the current CCC

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

Good thought! I'll do that in my review with The Other Paul and Redeemed Zoomer when we get around to that!

@coopermackay3948 6 месяцев назад

I believe there may have been confusion on what Trent Horn said when he was debating Jame White, as he was trying to convince him of any kind of purgatory, not just the Catholic view.

@SonOfTheLion 6 месяцев назад

This is because Roman Catholics never actually defend their positions. Rather, they obfuscate what they actually believe and try to sell that obfuscation to Protestants like Horn did in his debate.

@hughconway5318 6 месяцев назад

You need to debate or dialogue with Trent Horn.

@anglicanaesthetics 4 месяца назад

Hey! Sorry I'm just responding. We've tried to set up a few conversations but his schedule fills up quite quickly, as you can imagine

@HarryNicNicholas 2 месяца назад

@@anglicanaesthetics doesn't he do the usual narcissist phone ins? besides there are plenty of apologists who will talk to anyone. you could do worse than talk to an atheist once in a while.

@kyoto8911 6 месяцев назад

insane thumbnail 😭

@VickersJon 6 месяцев назад

Praise God for his kindness to me, a sinner. Great video brother!

@wesleybasener9705 Месяц назад

Yeah, I read that in Shaggy's voice

@justfromcatholic 6 месяцев назад

The reason why you and Protestants have problem with purgatory is Reformers' teaching of double imputation: through faith alone you get Christ' righteousness imputed on you and ALL your sins (past, present, and FUTURE ones) imputed on Christ who already paid (was punished) the punishment of those sins as if He were the one who commit ALL your sins. This teaching will make purgatory "add" what Christ already accomplished the cross, violating one of the five sola's, solus Christus.. Is double imputation scriptural? Ezek. 18:20 says "the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself". The verse flatly denies double imputation. Ezek. 33:14-16 says (ESV) "Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is just (מִשְׁפָּט, Strong H4941) and right (צְדָקָה, Strong H6666), if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, not doing injustice, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him. He has done what is just (מִשְׁפָּט, Strong H4941) and right (צְדָקָה, Strong H6666); he shall surely live. " A sinner must turn from sin (repent) AND do what is just and right in order to be back to life. Whether it is referred as "temporal punishment" or "satisfaction" or "compensation" or whatever way you refer it, the verses indicate that repentance only is not scriptural. It contradicts Reformers' solus Christus: Christ did all and there is nothing else we need to do other than repenting, if you follow the Gospel of Lordship Salvation. Those who follow Free Grace Gospel will say even repentance is not condition for salvation. In Catholic teaching Sacrament of Baptism erases Original Sin, all past sins (for adult) and their punishment (eternal and temporal) - you are entitled to disagree but you cannot claim it to be incoherent.

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

Bruh you believe that happens to in Baptism and whenever the merits of the saints are applied to relieve your temporal debt...

@justfromcatholic 6 месяцев назад

@@anglicanaesthetics Scripture does mention treasury of merits of the saints in heaven (Mat. 19:21, Mar. 10:21, Luk. 12:33, 18:22) that comes from doing good works. Scripture is silent on the purpose of those merits. You are entitled to disagree on Catholic teaching on the purpose of those merits, but you cannot deny the heavenly treasure of merits of saints. Unlike righteousness and wickedness, which are NOT imputable, merits (or demerits) are imputable, according to Scripture. For example, In Gen. 18:32 God told Abraham that He would not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if there were ten righteous persons living there. How many they had? According to 2 Pe. 2:7 Lot was righteous person - they had one, but one is less than ten. Suppose there were ten of them, then God would not destroy those cities. The righteousness of those ten will be neither imputed nor infused to the wicked inhabitants.

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

@justfromcatholic What exactly do you think Protestants have always meant by "imputation"? Our argument is that the treasury of merits contain Christ's merits alone, and that Christ's merits alone suffice for our justification. WCF 11.1: "i.Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth: not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not or anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but *by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,* they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness, by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God."

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

@@justfromcatholic Article 11 of the Articles of Religion: We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is expressed in the Homily of Justification.

@justfromcatholic 6 месяцев назад

@@anglicanaesthetics You are entitled to follow what WCF says and NOT what Scripture says in Mat 19:21, Mar. 10:21, Luk. 12:33, 18:22. It is your decision.

@daughterofyeshuaa 6 месяцев назад

As a Catholic I appreciate this video. You explained things so well & were incredibly respectful. I’m a convert and I feel like sometimes Catholic theologians water down our theology to make it more palatable for Protestants in debates.

@iwansaputra1890 6 месяцев назад

sadly still many protestant didn't believe baptist and eucharist can regenerate and forgive our sin

@upstairscandy0764 6 месяцев назад

If your sins are forgiven is is all of them or some? Why do you need purgatory if you have the lords supper every week? Dosent that forgive your sins for that week? How dose partaking in baptism or the Lord's supper forgive sins? The wages of sin is death and those do not cause death. What is the actual saving power in it? Is it partaking in Jesus' sacrifice or is it in it of itself? Do you have to participate in God's gifts of baptism and the Lords supper to be forgiven? If so then why dise Jesus say to the man on the cross today I will see you in paradise? How dose suffering for our sins work? In purgatory we suffer and that makes us cleansed to see God. Then why dose hell last forever? Can't they be punished and cleansed? Also how dose prayer help this? You are punished for your sins what grace can help you? If grace can help you out of suffering then why is there suffering in the first place? Is God not powerful enough to have enough grace without your prayer? At least baptists are consistent. You are only saved by Jesus's blood amd nothing else. You cannot suffer to reform you into perfection because you are made perfect in christ (after death, in life on earth justification happens (you cannot be sinless in life on earth)). You cannot add more of God's Grace to yourself or anyone because He extended full grace through Jesus.

@kirbysmith4135 6 месяцев назад

They can't.

@markquioas6097 6 месяцев назад

I advice that you read the scriptures for yourself and no just listen to catholic defenders and catechisms.listen to what Jesus and the Apostles themselves and find out.

@iwansaputra1890 6 месяцев назад

@@markquioas6097 your argument just begging question? even gnostic and heretic claim they follow jesus"s teaching

@user-hh8hw2wj9b 6 месяцев назад

@@iwansaputra1890 Protestantism is not a single movement, it is an umbrella of different traditions, Lutherans believes in Baptismal Regeneration and the forgiveness of Sins in the Eucharist unlike other protestants, so generalization is unfair.

@FrDrew_FaithofOurFathers 6 месяцев назад

Excellent video, Sean. May God bless your teaching ministry.

@yohannesabel7681 6 месяцев назад

You are just the best at pointing out the technical issues that differentiates us so clearly and strongly.

@sahilthedisciple 6 месяцев назад

Will you be posting your videos on Spotify again?

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

Yes! Thanks for the reminder--I'd actually been meaning to update the podcast

@user-nh8ky3te3f 5 месяцев назад

“For our ‘God is a consuming fire’” (Hebrews 12:29).

@Christian-ut2sp 6 месяцев назад

I just felt it was disingenuous for Trent to try defend something he knows does not represent the full Roman Catholic view. This isn't slander, he knows at the very least that purgatory is much more than cleansing after death.

@theepitomeministry 6 месяцев назад

Excellent content as always 👏

@SuperSaiyanKrillin 5 месяцев назад

Ever heard of the 'Motte and Bailey' fallacy ? Even as a Catholic myself I can admit that our apologists are guilty of it all the time

@MetaphysicalArchive 5 месяцев назад

yes, I think it's on both sides. James White, for example, is a great guy, so his trent, but when James debates and Trent debates, it's a lot of persuasive rhetoric

@religiousystuff 6 месяцев назад

1) At 8:33 you say if you smashed someone's car in you may not only get them a new car you may also give additional money to them, as this isn't just a restorative thing but recompense for the action. The added money going above & beyond the cost of replacing the car makes compensation for the wrong itself done. And that this is the idea of satisfaction in Catholicism. But is that actually true? Because from the quotes you used it seems that all that's necessary for satisfaction is restoring the order of justice by paying to repair the injury. That doesn't require doing additional good works or making added payments over and beyond merely repairing the damage done. 2) You stated in some of your comments here that there may be discomfort or even pain in the afterlife, even for those in Heaven. And likely even at the Final Judgment where believers will have to repent of sins again & likely experience discomfort as they have to give an account. But is that really necessary? Isaiah 43 comes to mind where God tells Israel to forget the sinful past just as He Himself chooses to forget Israel's unrighteousness, for He is making a new thing. Now I guess you COULD say that this refers to the New Creation itself, but I can see a probable defense that this also applies to becoming a new creation in Christ, so that at the very least after baptism one needn't feel sorrow or regret for one's sins since one has been renewed. 3) On a related topic, some people can still feel guilty for their sins even after baptism; even if they were made aware that all debt of sin in relaton to God had been removed (say via plenary indulgence or other method), they may still feel bad about themselves. The reason for this is that they feel that their past sinful deeds make them bad persons intrinsicaly. Now a potential common sense solution to this would be to go more good works than bad ones such that the good outweighs the bad, so they'll become at least an okay person again, if not an outright good one. But with sin in relation to God....that's an infinite weight that no amount of good works could equal or outweigh, so that solution is out. So...what other way is there to resolve THAT dilemma? One way is that maybe God Himself in His omnipotence could actualise the potential of them no longer being a bad person again, basically God doing for them what they can't do for themselves thru good works. Another solution coming to mind is related to our sharing in Christ's merits - some hold that Christ's suffering & death was overabundant to the point it goes beyond what's strictly needed to satisfy all the debt for sin in relation to God. If so, this may mean that Christ's merits COULD be weighty enough to include the moral weight of doing more good works than bad to become an okay person again. And if we can share in Christ's merits otherwise, it's possible we could be made to share in those merits as well. Thereby truly being objectively made no longer a terrible person again in this way, by God making us objectively no longer bad people. What do you think of this?

@internautaoriginal9951 6 месяцев назад

Trent argues for a Watered down Purgatory, and thinks every purification system is purgatory

@everettpeabody8024 6 месяцев назад

Another banger!

@EricAlHarb 6 месяцев назад

Im Orthodox and not committed to purgatory as a doctrine. Just to be clear I am Orthodox, St Ephraim the Syrian of blessed memory speaks of our journey in the after life as one where the soul recognizing in the face of the Glory of God its own failing, collapses and flings itself in despair into hades, where were it not for the love of Christ we would remain, but it is Christ who ministers to us and heals us. I've always understood this to be the doctrine of purgatory that the Latins have. Is it not?

@esoterico7750 6 месяцев назад

No everyone who dies in a state of grace merits heaven but they are still guilty for there sins

@ravissary79 6 месяцев назад

Why would they be guilty if they are justified? @@esoterico7750

@upstairscandy0764 6 месяцев назад

There is one unforgivable sin and it is the blasphemy of the holy spirit.

@clivejames5058 5 месяцев назад

Yes, but there are also sins which are forgivable. 1 John 5:16-18 for instance, talks about 'deadly sins' and sins which are 'not deadly'. Based on this passage of Scripture, the former are known as mortal sins in the Catholic world and will separate you from God, unless you confess to a priest - who in the name of Christ can absolve you and guide you (murder, adultery, homosexuality etc). The latter are known as venial sins (gluttony, little white lies etc) which don't seperate you from God (ie: if you die, you can still attain heaven) but you should, nevertheless, still self-reflect on your actions.

@thelonelysponge5029 6 месяцев назад

1:53 Did you just affirmed purgatory?

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

No, I affirmed post mortem cleansing. My point in this video is that this isn't sufficient for a Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. An argument for the former isn't by itself an argument for the latter

@thelonelysponge5029 6 месяцев назад

@@anglicanaesthetics I just watched most of it. So you do believe in purgatory, but deny the temporal punishment aspect of it? Do Anglicans pray for the dead and hold mass for them? It’s kinda annoying when Catholic apologetics try to minimize some aspects of the faith, it seems like they’re ashamed of it.

@thelonelysponge5029 6 месяцев назад

@@anglicanaesthetics Also, do you believe in temporal punishment too? But that Christ simply removes it every time you repent?

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

@thelonelysponge5029 You could say that--I don't call it purgatory though because what became purgatory was distinctively defined by retribution. I do believe in post mortem cleansing that happens in the presence of Christ and at the final judgment. But that's a fairly standard Protestant belief. As a matter of fact, yes! The BCP has us pray for the repose of the departed. Thus: "O God, who by the glorious resurrection of your Son Jesus Christ destroyed death, and brought life and immortality to light: Grant that your servant N., being raised with him, may know the strength of his presence, and rejoice in his eternal glory; who with you and the Holy Spirit lives and reigns, one God, for ever and ever. Amen."

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

@thelonelysponge5029 So I'd argue the case a bit differently--that every sin merits in itself a finite punishment, but the disorder of our hearts leads to unending sin. So the eternity of hell corresponds to the eternity of the will's orientation away from God, and in that sense "hell is locked from the inside". Those in hell don't cease sinning, their rebellion is just constrained.

@joelreinhardt2084 6 месяцев назад

Fantastic. The operation of the principle of retributive justice seems to play a big role in this aspect of the Romanist system. Others want to extend this magisterial protestant critique of the system to merit to expunge any notion of retributive justice from the doctrine of atonement as well. It would be interesting to hear your take on that issue at some point.

@Qwerty-jy9mj 6 месяцев назад

what's this romanist system?

@reznet2 6 месяцев назад

Nah dude temporal punishment due to sin is not remitted in either baptism or in confession. Idk where you are getting that from but that's not Catholic teaching. Baptism/confession is simply reunification with the church -- "sorry I broke your window with my baseball ⚾" means you are forgiven but the window is still broken which is why temporal punishment remains.

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

"The effect of this sacrament is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God." -Council of Florence "For by baptism [14] and are made in Him an entirely new creature, receiving a full and complete remission of all sins; to which newness and integrity, however, we are by no means able to arrive by the sacrament of penance without many tears and labors on our part, divine justice demanding this, so that penance has rightly been called by the holy Fathers a laborious kind of baptism. This sacrament of penance is for those who have fallen after baptism necessary for salvation, as baptism is for those who have not yet been regenerated." -Session XIV.8 Council of Trent "I answer that, As stated above (III:49:3 ad 2; 68, 1,4,5) by Baptism a man is incorporated in the Passion and death of Christ, according to Romans 6:8: "If we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ." Hence it is clear that the Passion of Christ is communicated to every baptized person, so that he is healed just as if he himself had suffered and died. Now Christ's Passion, as stated above (III:68:5), is a sufficient satisfaction for all the sins of all men. Consequently he who is baptized, is freed from the debt of all punishment due to him for his sins, just as if he himself had offered sufficient satisfaction for all his sins." Aquinas also points out that temporal debt and the debt we owe to men are different: In punishments inflicted by a human tribunal, we have to consider not only what punishment a man deserves in respect of God, but also to what extent he is indebted to men who are hurt and scandalized by another's sin. Consequently, although a murderer is freed by Baptism from his debt of punishment in respect of God, he remains, nevertheless, in debt to men; and it is right that they should be edified at his punishment, since they were scandalized at his sin. But the sovereign may remit the penalty to such like out of kindness." ST III.q69.a2

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

Also, the Catechism of the Catholoc Church in section 1236 teaches that all punishments due to sin are remitted in Baptism and there is nothing in the newly Baptized to impede their entry into heaven. Further, the Catechism of the Council of Trent: "In Baptism not only is sin forgiven, but with it all the punishment due to sin is mercifully remitted by God. To communicate the efficacy of the Passion of Christ our Lord is an effect common to all the Sacraments; but of Baptism alone does the Apostle say, that by it we die and are buried together with Christ. Hence holy Church has always understood that to impose those works of piety, usually called by the holy Fathers works of satisfaction, on one who is to be cleansed in Baptism, would be injurious to this Sacrament in the highest degree."

@Qwerty-jy9mj 6 месяцев назад

@@anglicanaesthetics Granted on baptism, this is why people in the first few centuries of the Church waited until their deathbed to be baptized, but it doesn't really address the issue for adults and confession

@AReformedBeliever 6 месяцев назад

nonsense. Repentance is suffering which is not possible in heaven.

@anglicanaesthetics 6 месяцев назад

Scripture doesn't teach there will be no more suffering in the intermediate state, and certainly and final judgment even believers will suffer in repenting for sin (because even we will have to give an account). Scripture teaches there won't be anymore suffering *in the new creation*--when the renewal of all things and the final resurrection is complete.

@ravissary79 6 месяцев назад

@@anglicanaestheticsinteresting distinction. Im a pentacostal and really enjoy the ancient perspective on the intermediate state... when eschatology was recebtered around the personal apprehension of eternity i think we lost this "evolution of the afterlife" historical perspective, but the trouble is the older view seems to downplay our being present with the Lord when absent from the body, but those who lean on being present immediately downplay the description of the atterlfe going theough its own kind of divine revolution, eventually ending with death and hell itself being destroyed in the lake of fire forever. The intermediate state is indeed intermediate. And while we have some revelation on what goes on there, and many ecclesiastical bodies have different doctrine on this, there's a LOT we don't know. Ultimately thats the true nature of faith in God... trusting Him to do what's right, even at our oen expense, because the ultimate end may confort me, but my comfort isnt the point... its the ultimate consummation and reconciliation of all things.