Random Orbit Versus Finish or "Sheet" Sanders 

+w0mbles how much is a pad where you live? Here (Moldova) I can get them in a store for about 15 cents a piece, it's not that expensive imo. In the local hardware store it's twice the price though.

gives up the ghost? you must be dutch

Agreed--heavy pressure is not required. The quality of the sandpaper itself can also contribute to success or failure. Some brands don't have consistent abrasive sizing across the sheet, which tends to leave swirl marks from the larger or taller abrasive on the sheet, and the backing of some sheets is thin or poorly machine stamped, leaving dimples around the cut outs.

Applying more pressure to a sander only slows it down and burns out the motor. 100 grit sandpaper will never cut deeper than 1/100 of an inch no matter how hard you bear down.

I think you would have had a much easier time with a random orbit sander. I really only use sheet sanders now for unusual situations in which a random orbit is too aggressive or offers too little control.

I'm surprised to hear that--I've had nothing but good luck with Bosch tools.

Is your new Bosch sander made in China and your old Makita made in Japan?

I've never looked, but it could be part of the problem, because big corporation usually specify with exact details the materials and quality, my feeling is that Bosch now sticks now with the Wall Street Corporate notion that they will maybe lose some clients and gain others by the numbers and just by putting good ads and hope for the customers stupidity (in the corporate views). In my view, we all must remember that just because a company used to make good tools in the past it doesn't necessarily mean they are still good today when stockholders are calling the shots. If you will ask old timers you rightfully so, will get a great recommendation, but we must look at the newly manufactured equipment and ask people who are buying them today and actually using them, and not people who make a video about Unboxing without actually a month or longer of using the tool.

Quite true--past quality doesn't predict future quality. I'd say in general all manufacturers of tools are making lesser quality now than they did 5-10 years ago or more. It's all about colorful plastic and doo-dad features, but the internal gearing, bearings, motors and triggers are all of the absolute minimum quality they can get away with. Unfortunately you can't spend a little more and get better, either-- the consumerizing of pro level tools has already happened and that's all we can get now.

A.G. M. That's hysterical--it reminds me of all the incorrect song lyrics people sing out loud! I suppose there must be a Finnish finish sander?

A.G. M. Also, it's important to note that Random Orbital Sanders are manufactured on planets which orbit the sun in a random manner.

Hm. My guess would be that the quality of orbital sandpaper you've used in the past may not be so good. Now, if I'm after a perfect-as-glass clear finish on fine furniture, say a table-top, then I''ll often turn to hand scrapers rather than power sanders anyway. Hand scrapers can leave a nearly perfect finish or sometimes I'll do some light hand sanding afterwards with a fine grit just to make the surface uniform. If I'm using a random orbit sander on fine furniture the most aggressive grit I'll start with is 150, and more often it is 220. It depends on the wood species too. Finally, the quality of the sander can make a difference. I have a Porter-Cable random orbit sander that's so bad I only use it for rough sanding of paint-grade work!

@@enduringcharm I concur with your thoughts, and processes, 100%. I have a Dewalt orbital that I've used for some 10 years or more. OTHER than the swirl marking, it still does a decent "pre-finish" sanding job. Thank you for your comments re: scrapers! I have only just in the last two days obtained a pair of them and am anxious to try that. I generally tend to literal piano top final finishes, very polished. Based on your comments, the scrapers should finally make it easier to get those fine polished surfaces. Am finishing up a coffee table at present. It was horribly damaged by my attempts to do final sanding with an orbital. Most of the swirls I believe came in the 220/400 stages. When I went to 1,2, and even 3-thousand grit, the swirls remained. So disappointed. But, as you noted, I do think the scrapers, if I can condition/shape them properly, will give me the finishes I'm looking for. BTW, the sandpaper disks are from Craftsman, and 3M, Lowe's and Home Depot. And do seem to shed grit badly.

I have some thoughts for you. First, I have noticed that some orbital sandpaper has an issue where the air holes are punched by the manufacturer. The edges of the holes tend to be raised up, and this is compounded when high humidity is present. It may be that your swirls have been from these raised edges. I've only noticed this problem in the last 5-10 years so maybe manufacturers have changed their processes. Also, it's common for the sander velcro pad to get worn or damaged, so take a look at that. I keep one good orbital sander for fine work, and the others are for rough construction and paint grade work. For fine work I'll hook up a vacuum or dust collector to the sander, which can also help remove loose grit. As for the "card" or cabinet scrapers, I don't yet have a video on the subject but it's one I should get to. There is a learning curve. Just like hand turning on a lathe, it's critically important to sharpen the tools for each use. The scrapers are held in a vice and carefully filed by hand, then you need to "turn over" that filed edge into a hook using a burnisher. It takes practice and not every iteration works. Then, in use, you need to learn the right movement and pressure to get good shavings. Wear gloves, because the scraper can get hot! After scraping it may be good to go, or you may need to hand sand with fine grit to remove transition marks.

@@enduringcharm Thanks so much for your generous time here! I'm retired "cropduster" aviator, 80, only turning to woodworking in recent years. Only 'formal' training was in "Manual Arts" classes in Junior High. But, very much enjoying the work. Will check immediately about the vent holes in the disks for the curled edges you mention. I discovered the loose grit almost by accident. Thought I had finished, ran my fingers over the surface, couldn't believe the 'grainy' residue, then looking very closely, discovered the horrendous scraches. I just figured it had detached from the sanding disks, due to poor glue, or insufficient base materials. Took about two seconds to realize what had happened. Was timid about commenting here since I definitely am not a pro. But am trying and learning. Have prided myself on natural wood 'glossed', with rubbed Watco Teak Oil and wax finishes. Usually, until very recently, only 12x10x9-ish (+/-) boxes, but now moving, due to 'requests', involuntarily into larger work. For some reason, the swirl problem only recently showed its ugly face. And has proven a very, very difficult problem to resolve for me. Really want almost 'piano top' finish. But, natural, not painted. Currently hanging hopes on the scraper thing .... though sounds as though it is not an easy solution. (Have watched, studied dozens of videos about it here.) The current subject is a coffee table of Black Cherrry. Potentially, could be a nice piece. But not unless I can get rid of the mess I made of the top ... and the swirl thing. Again, thank your for your time and experience here.

I'm happy to share--good craftsmen are always students of the craft as well. I'll mention one more thing. You noted that you are using Watco oil and wax, which is fine, but that type of technique does not easily translate to mirror finish. If you want a perfect, reflective, mirror type finish you'll need to explore lacquers, polyurethanes, and shellacs which "build" as each successive layer is applied. You'll find that sanding marks will be less of a concern because the successive layers will fill-in minor swirls and you can sand and polish the finish itself. I have some videos on finishing, including one on using water based polyurethane by a company called Emtech: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-g4RHnzcx8gI.html . But, before you do anything else on that black cherry table I want you to buy and read this book: amzn.to/2G1gyD9 I guarantee this book will change your life and you will thank me! Finishing doesn't need to be dark magic that nobody can follow. This author shows you the science behind the finishes and how to easily achieve the effect you want.

You'll want a random orbit sander starting with a 120 or 150 grit sandpaper and moving to a 200 grit. However, I must warn you that most modern doors are constructed with a wood veneer. You may find that the door is already a lost cause. Once the finish is worn off by weather or sun, the veneer tends to degrade quickly and even if you can successfully remove the rest of the finish, the exposed area of door will likely be bleached from the sun and will not take stain or other finish very well. However, if the door is otherwise in good shape you can sometimes buy some more life by using filler on the rough areas and then priming and painting.

Thanks for detailed reply....MY door is made with pure wood...so i think your suggestions will work for it.

Well, that depends on what kind of work you want to do. If you are just going to do general purpose around-the-house kind of sanding then the kit offers better value because it gives you a greater diversity of sanding techniques to use. If you are planning on developing a woodworking home shop or plan on doing mostly furniture and/or finish work then the the variable speed random orbit might be a better bet because it will give you greater control over most of your sanding needs and you can always add a cheap palm sander later if you really need it.

A random orbit sander would be the more versatile choice. It can handle almost anything and does a lot of things better than a sheet sander. I only reach for my sheet sander on rare occasions when I need less aggressive sanding, more control or some oddball circumstance.

enduringcharm sorry for digging old topic, despite this video is about 5 years ago, it still compete in information by now. thank you very much for the answer, and i guess in next 5 year, you'll get 5M subs. :) keep the good job. Regards From Indonesia.

catseatcheese It is possible, but you need to pay attention to some details. If you have a hardwood like oak or maple it will be a long slog. Softer woods like pine or fir will be easier. You need to be very careful to use the same motion and pressure for the whole floor or else you'll have an uneven finish. You'll want a rougher grit than you probably think, likely an 80 or 100. Let the tool do the work and don't spend too much time in one spot. Attach a vacuum if you can. Be careful moving between wood strips so you don't catch an edge. Continue to look back to make sure you are being consistent. You may not need to take all of the finish off if it is in relatively good shape and you are not staining. Change pads often so that the cut of the grit stays consistent. I'd recommend a water based satin or matte poly when you are all cleaned up. A glossier finish shows problems more than a flatter finish.

Have you looked at belt sanders?

Do you have little short arms and a large toothy grin? That would be another sign. I find that all three sanders have their place. Of the three random orbit sanders I own, each is a little better at certain sanding scenarios, which shows that there are design differences too. Possibly the random orbit sanders you tried were not well matched for the task at hand. Sandpaper certainly makes a difference too.

There's actually several tools made specifically for this task, including one by Porter Cable which I own. They call them power paint sanders or siding sanders and they use a carbide sanding disc. You can likely rent one. However, I must stress one thing first. If your house was built before 1978, you really need to check for lead paint first. Go to your box store and pick up one of the inexpensive test kits. You make a nick in the paint and swab it with a chemical. If it turns red you have lead present. It's nothing to fool around with, and if you are sanding lead paint you are creating a lasting problem for you and for others. If the swab test is clear, then you'll just want a mask for yourself.

Have you tried a gel paint stripper? That is what I would use for a large surface.

Most of my sanding is done in a shop environment, so I stick with corded.

+lou garcia Neither of these sanders is ideal for sheet metal, aluminum or otherwise. Metal dust is clingy and sparks are a potential fire hazard when sucked up through a random orbit sander. A finish sander would be ponderously slow on metal if you need to remove thickness. If the sheet metal flexes, that complicates sanding smoothly. A better choice would be a four or seven inch grinder with an appropriate grit grinding wheel. That will remove thickness much faster and sparks are not a problem. Once you get to the right thickness, you may wish to create a finer or smoother finish on the surface. At that point you could hand sand with a block, or perhaps use a finish sander with a finer grit just to get the right texture or remove swirl marks from the grinder. A random orbit sander could still be used, I suppose, but you might orient the sanding discs so that the holes are covered. That will prevent metal from getting into the sander and clogging it up. I'm assuming you are talking about a fairly large surface area, and you could take some pointers from automotive body work. If you are talking about small pieces of metal that you can hold in your hand, you might have better luck using a stationary belt sander or even a handheld belt sander turned upside down and clamped in place. Wear gloves and apply the small pieces to the sanding belt so that the workpiece will be pulled away from you if you lose your grip.

thanks for the tips, I think its the finish sander that I need to invest in. it is only the edges that we are working on. art is being applied to one side of the aluminum panel. I just need make the panel safe to hold. kinda like rounding out the edge. I guess just a faster way than using 400 grit sand paper. sometimes the edge of the panel has a ding on it. so I have to grind it down a bit more.

+lou garcia Oh, I see, so the sheets are picture frame size? I'm not so sure the finish sander will work very well on the edges. You'll be likely to tear the sandpaper. For your application a smaller grinding wheel mounted on a Dremel tool or drill might work, or you could consider a bench grinder with a very fine wheel. The bench grinder is mounted on a flat surface and you hold the workpiece against the wheel as you move it along. Another possibility is a sharpening stone rubbed by hand on the edges. They are made in lots of different sizes and are intended for sharping chisels or planes, or some are made to clean up grinding wheels with a fresh surface. You could just rub the stones along the edges to dull the aluminum. The price is certainly right: www.amazon.com/Bora-501057-Combination-Sharpening-Aluminum/dp/B003Y3BMAW/ref=zg_bs_553346_5

with the sharpening stone, do you think I could get a 45 deree angle with it, uniformly on all four sides of the aluminum panel? I wonder if they make a sharpening stone that sharpens at 45 degrees

+lou garcia I routinely cut 45 degree bevels in wood and sometimes on metal. Once you get a little practice in it should be easy. For the price of a stone I think it's worth a shot, anyway.

Yes, generally. Sometimes these terms get used loosely, so beware when making a purchase.

Well, Rockwell is not a high-end brand and you may be experiencing either what a cheap tool feels like or perhaps what a cheap tool gone bad feels like! A decent quality, properly functioning palm sander is not difficult to hold or use.

Jerry Thompson If you are talking about self-stick sandpaper on a finish sander, you may just have better luck with mechanically fastened paper instead. If you are talking about velcro (hook and loop) sandpaper on a random orbit sander, make sure that the velcro surface is free of sawdust. These pads do wear out, though, so you may need to order a new one from the manufacturer. Some brands of the sandpaper also seem to stick better than others, so don't skimp.

I've never had an issue with mine. Were you using an unusual style of sandpaper?