I think you're undervaluing cantrips by capping it at 9 from the get go, considering the blade ones and how impactful and important (and frankly overturned) they can be. (e: and a few others like thorn whip, its above a ribbon 9 at least)
Indeed, offering the right cantrips should probably be worth as much as the 'Pretty Good' ability score improvement at a minimum, and quite possibly even getting towards top of the line scores... It can end up being the core of the build you are going for.
I would guess that part of that limitation is due to their relative ease of access to most cantrips through other sources such as (sub)classes or species, compared to other benefits that might be harder or outright impossible to gain anywhere else. Not to mention, the exact numbers themselves are always going to be the most subjective part based on personal experience. Which is why I appreciate his breakdown on how he gets to any given scores making it easier to adjust to how valuable you think it'd be if you value cantrips more highly than he does.
I would argue that it’s based on build and then has a variable rate, versus some feats that are universal or game defining on the right build. BB or GFB can help make a build better but is rarely game defining and isn’t required on most builds.
@@predwin1998 Cantrips might be easy to access, but a feat is a much smaller investment than a level in a class you don't otherwise want (along with other weirdness like some feats let you use your preferred casting stat not the class one). And the value it sounds like he is placing on potentially only once per day casting of other low level spell options... Always a question of do you really want to delay getting your x level spells or other major feature from the primary class to pick up something no matter however great it is? Sometimes you might, as classes do come with other benefits beyond the cantrip, and spell unlock, sometimes you really won't. But that is true of both - and arguably a good cantrip selection for your build being unlimted in use is rather more valuable than a spell you won't get to use much.
I can’t wait to see how this all changes in September, and the giant flood of content from all my favorite dnd RU-vidrs, especially good ol Treantmonk 😊
@@quasarsword7479 it is! And apparently there’s like 30+ new feats in the book, although how many of those are just “fighting style feats” or reprintings/revisions of feats from Xanathar’s and Tasha’s, I can’t yet say
you should rank the base Ability Score Improvement alongside the feats, as a reference for generally how good a feat should be to be worth considering over an ASI (of course lower would still be fine but like, too much lower is bad)
@@heyimbilliejean Well...maybe? Might not be exactly 50 though right? +1 to an ability score of your choice can take you from an odd score to an even score, which is sometimes just as good as +2 to that ability score. In fact, usually you should only take a +1 half-feat if you do have an odd ability score. Also, I think the net value of +2 ASIs are very build-dependent. Like +2 DEX on a Monk is way more valuable than +2 WIS on, for example a Druid. On the Monk the ASI represents +1 AC, +1 to damage up to four times in a turn, +1 accuracy, and +1 to initiative. On a Druid, you might be just using Conjure Animals and not even meaningfully using your WIS on any given turn.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath Druids add their wis to their number of spells known. Conjure animals is notoriously busted and weird, the rest of the summoning spells do really benefit from wisdom.
Listening to these without having to rehear the ranking explanation with each video is going to make this much easier to consume on rewatch for reference purposes. Good call.
Good morning Chris! I just finished the Order of Scribes build video! Quest complete! It has been awesome watching your style evolve over the course of the play lists! You've just got better and better, and I appreciate all of the content you provide us! Can't wait for this new series! Until the next one, much love, hope your weekend is an awesome one! 💜
I totally understand splitting this up into segments, but please give a consolidated conclusion video integrating the whole shebang in a single visual representation for us. Thank you sir. 🙏🏼
This series is one of the best on RU-vid for people wanting to create solid, if not optimized, characters. All I ask is that there is a “final thoughts” video to wrap it up like was done with the species series. This is first class.
One feat that's really slept on is keen mind. One of my players took it and I was like 'okay, sure, why?' Then he proceeds to remind me that he gets to remember EVERY DETAIL OF ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING for the rest of the campaign
I’ve never understood this. Can you describe a situation where it’s come in handy? It seems to me like my character already remembers everything about the campaign, or at least remembers as much as I remember. At best, it’s a feat that’s only as good as the group’s best note taker. My character can theoretically remember less than I can remember, but it can never remember *more*…unless I’m missing something.
@@parheliaa But give me a practical example of this in action. I understand what it does in lore terms, but I don't understand what it does in actual play. This isn't a video game where what "I remember" can be controlled. Feat or no feat, if I remember what I read on a scroll in session 1, then so does my character, and if I don't, neither does my character...unless my DM or another player reminds me, which, again, can happen regardless of whether I have the feat.
I'm looking forward to these. It will be interesting to see the breakdown of how current feats are built, and might provide guidelines for people who want to brew their own feats.
Setting +1 to any ability score as a 25 point feature is a nice touch. Having a nice round number like 50 as the dividing line between feats you consider better than and worse than a standard ASI should make it easier to interpret the scores
Savage Attacker and Dungeon Delver are generally not considered great feats, but they're used all the time to good effect in our campaigns. Curious how they'll rank. And sometimes you just can't spare that one-level dip but need the AC from a higher tier of armor or shields. I've generally found that ALWAYS a little useful can be much more effective than seldom EXTREMELY useful over the course of a campaign.
On the prerequisites: If a prereq forces you to build in a way that doesn't work with the feat, surely that should count against the feat. If sharpshooter had a 13 strength requirement, it would be a way worse feat.
Looking forwards to this series! I do hope it avoids my biggest issue with the races series, which is that it was "just" a power ranking. Though with feats, I guess it's a lot easier for everyone to figure out which build is a good fit for a particular feat.
It would be a lot of extra work, but when the new PHB comes out, I would love to see a first impression tier ranking of the feats. Then a year later an in depth tier ranking and see how they compare.
Lucky is by far the most powerful and versatile re-roll ability in the game. Reactionless, too; a wizard with Lucky can cast shield to skyrocket their AC as a reaction, then use the lucky feat if their opponent somehow crits on their multiattack. In fact, it doesn't even matter if the enemy crits THREE TIMES IN A ROW IN A SINGLE TURN - the lucky feat will be able to negate all of them. Even Portent - another reactionless ability, but one that's exclusive to divination - is limited by the random chance of getting rolls that aren't applicable to what you need in the moment, and even then, Portent has to be announced before the attack is rolled, so it doesn't really work as crit-protection. Chronurgy's second level feature uses a reaction also. In fact, even Silvery Barbs can only be used once per turn and also uses a spell slot - a resource that can and should be used for other important spells, including the incredibly useful Shield. Frick, Lucky also works IN CONJUNCTION with Silvery Barbs! If your opponent somehow rolls back-to-back crits even with the Silvery Barbs disadvantage, the lucky feat gives you another chance to save yourself. In other words: yes, Lucky is incredibly powerful. S tier, in fact. That it works with every build in the game is just another cherry on top that adds to it's rating. Just because it only has three charges doesn't mean it's not incredibly powerful in what it does.
@obviouslykaleb7998 in a vacuum. Sure, blow all your luck points in a single turn. Using Lucky in an actual game? You blow through those 3 points in a single encounter, and then you don't have a feat for the rest of your adventuring day. Yes, the potential of Lucky is good. In reality and in actual play? No, it's not even remotely close to broken. I've seen Lucky just as often have no impact on the roll just as often as it does change the outcome. Same as Silvery Barbs. In regards to other feats? GWM, Sharp Shooter, and Elven accuracy are significantly more powerful, and they have no limit or cap. They are always on. Lucky is good. But it's not even remotely close to broken.
@@chrisg8989 GWM, SS, and EE are each reliant on factors outside the feat to be useful. Namely: build and race, obviously. You slap GWM on the Wizard who only has a strength of 13 because of standard array and it's a wasted feat. You slap Sharp Shooter on the purely-melee fighter or, again, the wizard, and it's another wasted feat. You can't even use Elven Accuracy if you're not the right race. Furthermore, all of those feats are useless if you're not doing the very narrow list of things those feats are specifically designed to deal with. If your adventuring day doesn't have a hapless goblin to eviscerate with your +10 damage bonus, 'you don't have a feat for your adventuring day.' If you don't have advantage, 'you don't have a feat for the rest of your adventuring day.' Roleplay moments? You're featless. There is never ANY scenario where lucky might not help if used right. Gambling? Lucky feat. Combat? Lucky feat. Criminal trial? Lucky feat. Spike trap? Lucky feat. Trade deliberations? Lucky feat. Grappling? Lucky feat. Climbing? Lucky feat. Swimming? Lucky feat. Concentration? Lucky feat. Drinking? Lucky feat. Acrobatics? Lucky feat. It's quite ironic that you claim Lucky's only broken 'in a vacuum,' then go to list three things that only work in a very, VERY narrow section of the _table top role-playing game._
I know it's probably a bit too late in the lifecycle of 5e, but I really enjoyed your series rating the Druid spells. Seeing you compare and rate things is always great. Have you thought about doing a comparative rating of spell lists?
Based on the schedule you mentioned, it sounds like Resilient is being scored as a single feat, though I could see an argument that it might be more informative to score it as 6 separate feats. With something like Fey Touched or Shadow Touched, you get a choice of ASI, but the second effect is functionally the same regardless of which attribute you increase. But with Resilient, the ability you increase changes the saving throw you gain proficiency for, and not all saving throws are created equal. Resilient (Con) and Resilient (Wis), for example, are going to be a lot more relevant to more characters than something like Resilient (Int) or Resilient (Cha).
For any feat with multiple options, Chris ranks it based on the option that would be rated the highest based on the metrics, plus extra points for versatility. It is consistent and less cumbersome. That said, Chris ranking Magic Initiate for every Class-cantrip combination might be a great series to fall to sleep to.
Looking forward to seeing your rankings, but I think segmenting your tiers into equal sized bins is obscuring information about the distribution of scores, particularly at the extremes. This irked me a bit with the race tierlist as there was a lot of variation within the highest and lowest tiers. Maybe I'll mock up a plot to show the distribution and drop it in the discord or something. Anyway, love the videos and I look forward to seeing how you rank the feats :) Edit: I'm not actually on the discord and I can't seem to find a working link to it. If anyone knows how to find it please let me know
You need to become a Patreon to get access (link in video description). It's great value for money, since we get early access to videos (I've binged this entire series already) and the Discord server is a very active community.
The Species Ranking videos have been extremely helpful, so I'm looking forward to the Feat Rankings! Thanks in advance! Will you be making any consideration or comment on feats that can be obtained through background features? Options from Strixhaven and The Book of Many Things have really surprised me, but I feel like many people willfully ignore these, or assume they'll be banned. Will ASI be on the list? :P Obviously, the value changes depending on the build, but it would be interesting to see it there as a general baseline.
I understand why the Cartomancer feat would be difficult to rank because the question is whether or not it also acts like an extra xlvl spell slot or if it is just a free Subtle + Quickened spell. If it works as a free spell slot having the feat and then making a simulacrum would allow the simulacrum to cast a free spell every long rest.
Cartomancer is not subtle. It even adds a somatic component to spells cast with it. Having it consume a spell slot is probably a good way to balance it, extra level 9 slots used to be the domain of epic boons.
Hello Chris, I hope your day is treating you well. I truly love this. I am curious to see where Mage Slayer is gonna fall on this list. It is my favorite to use on any of my Marshal class builds.
I can see Aberrant Dragonmark being a hassle to tier with its optional feature being optional and not at every table. Also it’s also in the Rising from the last war book like Revenant Blade feat, I think the one you are thinking of from wayfinders might be the UA version.
So, instead of converting to a letter system, you can do what Asian servers do for games where you do a Tier 0 (meta, most powerful) to like a Tier 5. This allows for half scores if you desire to show nuances between the different tiers. Just an option!
I think that feels pointless with this style of tier list. Given that the location on the tier list is going to be based on point scores assigned to the strength of various features, there is an in-built precision. Knowing that a feat in B-tier scored 57 points versus 72 points is fine, and reclassifying one as tier 2.1 instead of 2.7 doesn’t really add anything.
I like how Patreon (and Nebula for those creators) has evolved into the free2play/play2win games model. You can wait to unlock these great things or pay and get them super early! No judgment, TM gotta get paid, I just think it's funny
I understand it get's difficult with the pre requisites but the first example you gave, ritual caster, is one that might make it necessary. As it is mainly the Charisma based casters that can't do rituals. So they would be most impacted positively from having it. However to get it they then also have to sacrifice ASI. Thus lowering the score/quality of the feat. So maybe just a flat minus something for if it get's in the way, nothing if does not. Loved your work on racial scoring so looking forward to it.
I can already see a lot of trends with this system and honestly I get the feeling combat and half feats are going to run rampant on the upper tiers. I can’t wait to see it - even though chances all none of us is going to agree on a lot of this - excepting the 6 or 7 feats that we all can predict are failed to F tier.
OOOH Fun! :D I know that we will be getting A LOT of new feats in the next edition, but do we know if we are losing any of the ones we are used to from 5e?
I think I would absolutely penalize any feat with a racial prerequisite! I mean that seriously limits powerful options including the total number of feats … or say you want elven accuracy? well you can’t be a wi ged tiefling…
Especially after the TCE Errata added the sentence: "Your race is considered to be a Custom Lineage for any game feature that requires a certain race, such as elf"
I can see an argument for both sides. One is how you'd value these feats for builds planned beforehand in which case you can include how a feat like Elven Accuracy might rank when factoring in the fact that they limit your choice of species. On the other hand you could say that ranking Elven Accuracy lower because you have to be an Elf would mean that it's final ranking would no longer be accurate for someone who is actually playing an Elf anyway and looking at potential feat choices since that penalty would be irrelevant.
@predwin1998 great counter point. Since Chris had a hard time coming up with a consistent way to correct for prerequisites, I like this approach of completely ignoring them. Since Chris rated the races using the same metrics, it's possible to go back and consider elf options against Custom Lineage or other races.
So a plus one ASI is worth 20 points and you get two extra points for each additional stat option. A +1 ASI that can go anywhere would be 30 points. The ASI 'feat' lets you do that twice, so 60 points. Then it lets you choose to put plus two into any single score, it's got to be worth at least 10 points more. So ASI would be worth 70 points and we should only take a feat if it scores more than that. 🧑🏫
A bit of an ask, but perhaps for completeness' sake you could adjust the score given to the races that give access to racial feats, by determining how to convert the feat's score to a bonus to the race's score? I only ask because I get a kick out of you quantifying these things.
what is the drive behind even numbers in each ranking as opposed to having consistent score ranges between each tier? I remember being confused behind this initiative with the racial rankings too. I feel like it looks prettier on a page, but doesnt do nearly enough to show the difference between point disparities. Keep up the videos!
I feel like some feats have next to 0 downside for not letting you improve any of the 6 ability scores. Is it really "worse" that Telekinetic doesn't let me pick STR? Sure I won't be picking it on a melee martial now, but those are usually pretty bonus action loaded anyway
Assigning a positive score to giving you true strike is a mistake, giving you that spell should deduct points because you now may cast the spell by accident or waste brain power going 'wait, it's can't be *that* bad'. Also your friend may see your spell list see you have true strike and not realize its from a feat and you had now choice and now they think you're an idiot, friendships and over less.
How many traits Spirit guardians has? A PC did the other day, around 300 dmg with one SG. 5e is stupid. Day one reaction: this is pretty good, simple and logical, Day 2+: wait a minute WTF IS THIS?????????????
I'm sure this will be a great series, but I feel like not dinging feats with a racial prerequisite is a mistake. If you are the kind of player who likes to plan your character in advance, it's important to know that if you want Eleven Accuracy, you are giving up a Halfling's Lucky feature.
Yeah with first level feats for everyone in 5.5 it’ll be a lot more fair going forward. It’ll come down to whether being human and getting a second first level feat is worth skipping out on the abilities you’d get from another species.
idk man, you line out a system that is neccessarily objective, and then say "it's subjective" I think it's just because of a common misunderstanding that people on the internet think "objective" means "correct" or "unassailable", when in fact, something needs to be objective first, before it can be wrong.
As always, making an even spread of ranks is embarrassingly awful. F tier should only EVER be specifically and exclusively feats that give no benefit, for example. S should only be clearly overpowered options. That is what the letters mean.
I think that’s actually wrong. Picking arbitrary cut off values in a points-totaling system to force specific meanings onto S and F is making unhelpful presumptions about the distribution of power levels. The consistency and transparency of the racial tier list (the same feature on multiple races is worth the same) was its greatest strength, and I feel that we had more insight into what actually made races powerful, and the distribution of power levels between them.
I like this approach; releasing a setup video for the series. Yes, granted I'm more interested in the meat of the analysis, but I much more prefer a setup video once, rather than repeating the same content at the start of every video within the series.
