Reacting to PJiggles' Zelda Redesigns in Smash 

I have to say, from what I’ve seen I think it’s way too early to claim BOTW is influential as it’s only been 6 years. Games take a long time to make so we’ll honestly have to wait a bit longer to see if it’s truly influential to the gaming space. Keep in mind I love BOTW but to call it influential seems a bit hasty as the only games I have seen that adopted features that seem wholly unique to BOTW are Genshin Impact copying BOTW climbing system. And Ocean Horn 2 which shouldn’t even count as much like the first Ocean Horn the 2nd is just a poor man’s Zelda Game This is coming from the guy who 100% Ocean Horn 1 cause I hate myself

@@dinoshotgun The only real true influence BOTW can say to have is on Zelda devs. Aonuma said in an interview that he wants any Zelda game he works on in the future to draw from it. Obviously we'll see if he actually means it (or if he was even allowed to), but it at least feels like for Zelda itself BOTW made as big an impression that hasn't been seen on the since, like, OOT I guess.

@@ShyRanger that I fully agree with, it’s just when people say it’s influenced the entire game industry, that’s what I disagree with. It has more than likely influenced the entire Zelda series going forward. I just think people are jumping the gun when saying it has influenced the whole gaming landscape

@@dinoshotgun Just because the majority of the games that took influence from BotW were commercial and/or critical flops that didn't understand the mechanical things they were trying to imitate doesn't mean there's not a lot of examples. People were already trying to half-assedly copy TotK before it even came out. And that's still significant, even if such instances are comparatively a flash in the pan. Like, influence is a much broader thing than the criteria you set. In fact, only looking at the mechanically unique elements of BotW is actually a fairly shortsighted way to think about it. Far more influential were the more subtle aspects of world design and location flow, which is typically a far more pivotal part of open world game development. A lot of the BotW DNA in Elden Ring is what has made it more multi-replayable than the other SoulsBorne games. People love routing out paths through the game for picking up stuff for different build goals and such. Navigation is a key element of fun, instead of being the thing you do between the fun parts of the game. Though, I say all this not even being being all that much of a fan of open world games personally. And, obviously, other Zelda games have been even more influential so far in the past. OoT's Z-Targeting is still being used regularly throughout the industry and across many genres, for instance. But, the writing was also on the wall for how influential that was within only a couple years. By contrast, BotW is already a whole console generation old (even if Nintendo is milking every profitable year they can out of the Switch).

@@Shalakor except the thing about routing paths is not unique to BOTW, it didn’t invent that, if anything replayablility and routing paths originated from Rouge Lites and Rouge Likes, not BOTW. Again way to quick to jump the gun there in calling BOTW influential when the only real mechanics unique to BOTW are it’s climbing system (which a few games have replicated) and it’s physics based chemistry system, to say it influenced the way of routing out a path and replayability is just wrong. Heck while I said Rouge Lites invented it, it’s much more likely that the first Legend of Zelda invented it (and of course A Link to the Past refined it) this can be clearly seen as the BOTW devs said that the first Legend of Zelda was a major influence on the making of BOTW Again I love BOTW and I really hope more games are influenced by it, but as it stands now it’s far to early to say if it’s influenced the games industry as a whole

the the the the the the the

Yes dear...

You’re a Smash Bros. Fan, you don’t have a girlfriend.

Then we need mockeock to react to phiggsle reaction

@@ridgenyan-botxv367 We don't need another Alpharad/PokemonChallenges. I wouldn't necessarily complain, but...

@@GammaFn. rtgame and pchal did it first

and then they should collab on a much deserved zelda rework concept

Peak capitalism

100% agree about specials. Standard attacks are meant to be the normal punches, kicks, and slashes, while the whole reason the others are called “specials” is because the moves are both unique references to that character/series and they offer stronger utility than standard attacks.

That's totally fair, I agree that if you're gonna just nail representation anywhere, it definitely needs to be specials. Looking out for it!

Overall I am more than agree with the approach of changing moveset in smash bros between games isn't like they are from FG most of them like with all honesty just I change ganondorf to dirty tactian in a heart beat

@@MockRockTalk The reason Why Sakurai doesn't does't change characters has nothing to do with alienating players, no the real reason is balance. If a character canonically has too much potential Sakurai will simplify the character if it's the easy answer. If a character has no potential then the character must be stronger than their game, Jiggly Puff, Ice Climbers, Caption Falcon, Game and Watch. For example everyone was asking for Sora in Smash, and when we got him competitive fans had a hard time playing him. This is because Sora is reduced to having only KH 1 moves, one move from Dream Drop Distance and thats it. Why, because if Sora had too many moves from his later games he would be (broken) in Smash. Moral of the story have low expectations for really powerful characters.

@@theenderkirby939 Ganon being a Falcon clone would be disappointing if Falcon as a one to one translation of F-zero, Caption Falcon in Smash is fast, strong and that's it. So Ganon in Smash is like Falcon in that he reflects the Zelda series from a (symbolic stand point) rather than literal representation. Ganon has the Triforce of Power, so for Smash he has a powerful moveset. However it comes at the cost of everything else!!!!!!! This means that Ganon can't afford to make a mistake, because every attack will leave him vulnerable. He feels less like a character and more like a playable boss to the absolute extreme.

Sure...and it still sucks lol

Just because it's a reference doesn't mean it's good

@@RedBoi1337 Except isn't like this whole video complaining about Zelda characters not having stuff from their own games. And yet that's from his own game so there you go. Oh you want something from his game AND it's good. Okay that's fine, just don't act like you only care about the canon of past stuff.

If that's from wind waker then they picked the single worst thing to reference with his moveset.

Considering Wind Waker has easily my favorite sword attack animations in the Zelda franchise and I _still_ didn't realize his forward smash was a reference to them until now... yeah, they probably could've done better.

Wizard's Dropkick is a fabulous name though.

In an alternative universe we’re gonna have falcon foot and wizard kick

i always thought the same thing it sounds so dumb and unintimidating imagine a wizard trying to kick you and how goofy it'd look

Hey that extra item pull's gonna be real useful when Villager and Isabelle pocket your bomb!

b shadow's actual top speed is higher though

@@ScatLuigi You might be right about that, actually. Still, I don't think it takes away from the idea of making B. Shadow an echo fighter that much. Falcon's always been portrayed as a better racer anyway. Plus, Boost could just mean Dash speed in this context and the Body stat point still stands.

Yeah I didn't really get the "it's just another Link" argument. If I hadn't already played Twilight Princess I would have zero reason to expect that they're the same, or even slightly related characters.

the main problem is that having *4* of what is effectively one character is utterly ridiculous, especially considering the fact that they could be adding a bunch of other characters.

It'd be like complaining that Sheik is "another Zelda" despite having entirely separate movesets.

@@G0blinM0deI mean Four Swords exists. I think it’d be a cute half reference to that.

Honestly, that seems like more of a fail on the Zelda series. He wields the Triforce of Power, let him be powerful.

Someone hasn’t beaten totk /lh

@@alviabtahi5440 That's fair, but in Zelda games he also tends to fly around and move relatively quickly. His slow, heavy demeanor in Smash is a direct result of the devs trying to differentiate him from Captain Falcon.

I honestly can't tell if this comment is a joke or not, and if it is k you can ignore me. But if you're serious with that then your argument is kinda moot. The reason Ganondorf is "weak" in Zelda games is because they are made by a family company, who wants any 8-year-old to play OoT and have a good chance at winning. By your logic, King Dedede should also do barely any damage, Bowser should be super telegraphed, and Pikachu should kill Charizard instantly with one or two attacks.

​@@ShyRanger to be fair, Bowser is one of the most telegraphed characters in the game and Pikachu with his combos does kill Charizard in a couple interactions. I agree with your point, I just think you picked odd examples

Nah bro just have him punch like ganondorfs smash attacks would be funnier

I mean yeah, no shit lol

I honestly think that by next game we'll be back to the old formula of the main Triforce trio taking their designs from the latest game rather than each representing a different Zelda title. BOTW and TOTK were unprecedented successes for the series, and Nintendo I'd going to want to push that version of the series as heavily as possible, especially considering that I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to do 60 fps upscaled rereleases of both games on their next console, which will keep their designs relevant even as the next game in the series approaches.

TotK based Ganon would end up being Bylethdorf most likely

I feel it is not nearly as similar tho. It's only one form and they are mostly the same physically, for corrin it's specific limbs and stuff. IDK if the size and proportion changes are nearly as cohesive or simple. Secondly the throws are static, you can't escape or get hit in a 1 on 1 during them, and the dragon isn't too bad/ YLink should follow the lead of similar setup but different execution to tie them together

I feel like they could have Young Link permanently turn into the other forms after using the specials, and getting a small stat change for each form. Although, that would make up special a bit weird, but that could easily be fixed by removing the special fall on up special or making it a cancellable charge move.

The only full transformations into a totally different body shape are Corrin's throws, wich are uninterruptible due to invincibility and can take their time. Transforming YLink into Deku, Zora or Goron would have to be really fast and, probably, janky. Also, the barrels have the problem of being to big to work as a normal item pull, they would have to behave more like Snake's grenades or Inkling's splatbomb, fundamentally changing a relevant aspect of his gameplay.

maybe just his arms transform?

@@ScatLuigi Oh, god. That sounds like nightmare fluel.

Tbf for Impa it lowkey would make sense

I think it would be Impa and Hilda who would be the new additions with the same moveset but slightly different properties

Finally, the Melee 2.0 we've been waiting for.

@@julienherard414 Zelda not having a Hilda costume still really bugs me. When I first got Smash 4 and didn't see it, I thought "Well that sucks, but maybe LBW came out too late?" Then I got all the music with Yuga's theme and got annoyed again. And yes it's possible they still didn't have tie for an alt, but that's like the easiest one ever.

@ShyRanger It would have been interesting if they made Hilda like a reverse Zelda in terms of her moveset. I don't know what that would look like, though.

So does pokemon trainer, i don't see the issue

I mean, it's not a big problem for characters like Corrin, Wario, Inkling, or Samus

​@@LARAUJO_0A "big" problem you say?

@@creature6715 Unlike Pokemon Trainer, Link with masks would be four characters. Thats a bit harder to pull off.

​@@orangeslash1667it's not like you're coming up with new movesets for each of them. I think it's fine

Honestly I don't get the Triforce Slash hate that much. I feel like if these characters were done better with everything else EXCEPT Slash, PJiggles wouldn't damn it to hell like he does now. Feels ore like the last straw.

I honestly despise that pjiggles' reasoning for hating triforce slash so much is that it isn't a reference...when not only is ancient arrow (something he praises to high heaven for being a reference) is an infinitely lamer and less cool final smash; but also if they just changed TFS to be fierce deity doing the exact same move, he'd be cheering and saying it's the best thing ever. not everything needs to be a reference; bc thinking like that is how we had the sonic two flickies meme happen in the first place. (also; for me at least, triforce slash gets by purely bc of how cool it is)

@@Adambomb2002 I mean, the fact that fierce deity would be the exact same idea yet they still have young link triforce slash is what makes it frustrating. It’s like the single most obvious final smash for any character and they didn’t do it

@@Adambomb2002 I have found Triforce Slash significantly less cool since Brawl, personally. The sword slashing just sounds like splashing water or something now lol. I do agree that BOTW Link's new FS is lame though despite the reference. I don't see why we can't have it be a reference and look cool at the same time.

​@@ShyRangerYeah but its kinda more salt in the wound, like Ganon's smash attacks in Ult being ripped from other characters and using a sword from a tech demo, which I personally would love so much more if it wasn't the ONLY thing they did. The fact it isn't from any games and its the only real thing they added is kinda rubbing it in. Same goes for Triforce Slash though I don't mind it myself, I just think its a bit boring

True but that means making an extra 10 characters in a game with 70 characters in it. That would mean something else in Ultimate would have to suffer.

Awesome idea

I agree. It turns into a reskin of peach’s, an up special I already find references boring.

I have the same issue--I actually think, contrary to the general pattern of moveset designs throughout Smash, the Up-B designs have gotten less creative over time. The N64 idea of turning Spin Attack into a helicopter aerial makes a lot of sense. Though I'd agree that if there are 3 Links in a game, they don't all need that as their recovery.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there more Up Bs that consist of “spinning your weapon/arms to get back to the stage” than those that are “glide yourself back to the stage”?

@@christiancinnabars1402 What are you thinking of besides DK? There's probably a few more, not many.

⁠​⁠@@jonathanlgillBoth samuses, Wario, Sora, mii sword fighter, and Charizard

Only confusion I'd see with that is, since Spin Attack would still be an AOE of sorts, giving someone an AOE Jab.... like, is that a thing? Also technically not every Zelda can you move and spin attack, only the 3D Zeldas, but in the 2D ones where the move started you can only do it by charging. Also don't know if you can ove to do it in BOTW.

@@ShyRanger I'd say the "AOE aspect" just makes it a bit more unique. And especially now in ultimate most jabs are just kind of... the "same". obviously not 100% true but I think its clear what I mean. And yes in the 2D games you have to charge it but at least I wouldn't let the 2D game inspire much of the sword moves honestly. It just feels more natural to look at the 3D games in for sword moves. Up air and down air based on Zelda II moves work but that's just because of the different perspective the game is played in.

​@@ShyRanger No, an AOE jab is not a thing in smash yet. However in the early days of SSF2, one of the cut characters, Blue the hedgehog, might have had part of his jab spin in a circle with his sword and hit both sides. I'm an SSF2 historian hehe

@@phazerxp339 the only AOE jab I think technically exists is metaknight. since his slices can hit behind him.

@@MrMariosonicman I remember that from my Brawl days but I think that's not really a thing anymore right? Also that jab was hilariously awful. Funny cause it's on brawl MK

I don't think making it a grab would do the ability justice, and it wouldn't be easy to properly showcase the grab range if it just happens like *snap

@@gormottigrebel9978nah I think it can work if you just make a yellow effect showing the grab range when it whiffs

Honestly, stasis could work as a weird long-range command grab but at the cost of it being very committal and like a ray emitting from somewhere.

And also the moveset doesn’t have to be thought out. You already know how the specials work together so you wouldn’t have to theory craft new ones.

@@Magic_Ice What does that have to do with what I said?

@@TheRealBatabii it has to do with why having a similar moveset means that development time will be faster even if the animations are different

@@Magic_Ice again that's irrelevant to my comment.

@@TheRealBatabii sorry I re read your comment (I was very tired when I wrote my original) and I understand you mean that just because it’s slightly different doesn’t mean he isn’t a clone and I said that he was a clone because not theory crafting a new moveset would be easier.

It could be like Ike’s final smash or just have it be a transformation final smash where all his sword attacks give you sword beams and do insane damage about 2x as powerful as max aura lucario

I’m pretty sure impa is the most appropriate for smash, she appeared in a lot of games both a fighter and just a guide in the games

I think that's too many links, it's better to just change with the main game imo

​@@illford6921 Nah, 4 links are fine.

@@waffleman8053 idk man people already complain with 3. Along with how much stuff is in ultimate they would have to lower the quality of something else to add in another character, even if that character is mostly a clone.

Honestly, a solution I could see is that BOTW Link and Wind Waker Link will stay, as they feel the most unique in playing. Young Link and Twilight Princess Link will not return.

​@@iantaakalla8180is ultimate so no cuts

Noted, I added it to a card, thanks!

Flame Choke was introduced in Brawl. Melee Ganon's sideB (Gerudo Dragon) was a more direct copy of Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost. Brawl went out of its way to de-clone a lot of moves and animations.

@@Evello37 I'm noticing a pattern of if a character has too much potential Sakurai will reduce the character for balance. Now Ganondorf using physical attacks is not out of character, in OOT he punched the ground so that floor tiles would fall of. It's like Sakurai said, (ok I'm going use that big punch moment and reduce him to just that, because a one to one translation would be too hard to balance).

Also, Ascend would be a broken move because if it is faithful, you would get to recover for free when underneath the main platform. It would be a move that would be either that good or next to useless, and there would be no in-between. Revali’s Gale, in terms of balancing, is similar enough to Minecraft’s Steve’s jet pack or gliding

I like how you say no to Ascend because it comes from one game, but everyone wanted Revali's Gale in Sash Ultimate, even though in 2018 it also was fro one gae.

@@ShyRanger I think it works because it incorporates the gliding ability link has had for a while now. The ability itself is from one, but the mechanic is fairly well trodden at this point

He probably didn't put THAT much thought into it since it's 80+ characters to go over. G&W, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Wii Fit, Inkling, Pacman, etc. Those characters aren't in high demand to be notably changed outside of numbers. Point is, many of which are open to a notable rework in his mind.

Bro, we don’t need anymore triforce wielders, that’s like if the mario series only had variations of Mario peach and bowser, it doesn’t represent mario well

Tbh the only ones I would say need a total overhaul is Samus and Luigi. The others need some stuff but they are mostly good.

Eh.... I get what you mean but I disagree. In terms of "Game representation" well, if you want cool ninja Impa I'm assuming they'd have to use her OoT version cause it's one most people know and in basically all her other forms she's old. Yes there's Age of Calamity, but asking Smash to make a full model of a character based on one spin-off sees REALLY weird. So yeah OOT Impa would be picked... and Sheik is mainly from OOT, so that's the same game, no change there. As for character variety, I mean I guess but I doubt anyone would really care. I mean, look at this video. Never do MockRock or Pjiggles hate that there's 3 Links, they hate HOW the three Links are done. I feel like they did the right thing with Sheik (or rather Zelda) and just make them represent different games since they don't need to transform.

@@ShyRanger Age of calamity is a prequel to BOTW not a spinoff game exactly so its not weird to want AOC impa in the game. Also loads of people played Hyrule warriors as well. No matter how you look at it its not weird thinking they could or should add aoc or warriors impa since both are better known from these games than the others for the most part aside from i guess BOTW impa but AOC is impa in her prime before BOTW so yeah not weird at all

@@dave9515 I hate to be that guy, but AOC is actually not a prequel, it follows a different story to the one that was depicted in breath of the wild by adding a time travel premise.

They could just use her hyrule warriors definitive edition appearance it has the most moveset potential

But here’s the problem ganon is too big to make it happen

@@NormalGuy985 the Legend of zelda 1987 version could work , but you raise a good point

@@gastrodonenjoyer999 Ganon being a Falcon clone would be disappointing if Falcon as a one to one translation of F-zero, Caption Falcon in Smash is fast, strong and that's it. So Ganon in Smash is like Falcon in that he reflects the Zelda series from a (symbolic stand point) rather than literal representation. Ganon has the Triforce of Power, so for Smash he has a powerful moveset. However it comes at the cost of everything else!!!!!!! This means that Ganon can't afford to make a mistake, because every attack will leave him vulnerable. He feels less like a character and more like a playable boss to the absolute extreme.