I’m an almost 40 year old Marine Corps veteran myself. I will be getting baptized this Saturday. My wife and family are very supportive. It has helped me make numerous positive changes in my life. I’m SO close to 2 months sober and when we take sacrament this week it’ll be 3 weeks without cigarettes. I’ve gained so much knowledge from you brothers. Semper Fi
Here’s the thing though. The church is going to try to hide all these things or bury them in their record so they can say that they address them. But I’m sorry with the polygamy, the DNA, lack of biblical evidence for the book of Mormon. Absolutely nothing convinces me that that book is true.
This is real critical thinking. As a convert, I kinda have an advantage here...I've been exposed to most of those...they are not new...I worked through them and have faith I can work through the rest no matter how troubling it might become.
My faith was tested, big time, when my brother-in-law told me about the CEO Letter. He had just left the church after reading the letter and felt like he needed to share his newfound knowledge with his family and friends. I read it. And it basically killed me, spiritually. I felt like everything I had ever been taught about the church was a lie. It took me a while to get out of my spiritual hole. One thing that helped is realizing the intentions of the author. He wasn't trying to be altruisitc when he wrote it. His purpose was to shatter people's faith. The example you talk about at around 12:30 regarding city names is a perfect example. He just cherry-picked things that he thinks would be shocking. His intentions were insidious. At the end of the day, do I still have questions about the church? Of course. But I've had too many spiritual experiences in my life to deny the existence of God. And those experiences have happened when I exercise faith and participate in church callings/activities. At the core of our religion, and every Christian religion, is the teaching to love god and love your neighbors. If you start building your foundation there good things will happen.
@fuenti99 that is one of the stupidest, non informative and useless comments I've heard in a long time. Thats like saying "you don't need to believe in Issac Newton to believe in gravity."
If the lds church is true,shouldn't these questions have answers? The Bible has no contradictions or questions or holes in logic and no blind faith is required to dismiss any tough questions. Why does the LDS see this as an okay thing while Christians see this as unacceptable and academic study leads to more faith and less questions
@Bullybob77 if you believe the Bible has zero contradictions you obviously have never actually read your Bible with a critical mind. The Bible has hundreds of contradictions throughout its books. It contradicts itself multiple times within the first 5 books alone. Your ignorance is showing.
Wait a minute! I was told the The First Book of Napoleon, published in 1805 was the catalysts for Joseph when he wrote the Book of Mormon??? In the last two weeks I've read the Napoleon book no less than 6 times. Very interesting but to say that it has anything to do with the coming forth of The BOM is ridiculous. But, since the claim was made, I read The First Book of Napoleon, and now seeing for myself the truth, first hand, my testimony of the divinity of The Book of Mormon is more solid than ever... I have now read several pages of View of the Hebrews, and it looks like the same conclusion will be met. Thanks for the video! Keep up the good work guys!
Thank you gentlemen, I appreciated your humility. After seeing that video I think you have a ton to offer. Delving into you're own beliefs can be uncomfortable, and watching ya'll doing it is inspiring
You forgot to mention "the weird trick to building passive income AND lean muscle AT THE SAME TIME while reading the Book of Mormon!!" Your pre-intros are awesome 😂 I do love your metaphors about shooting with both eyes open. The anti-mormon rhetoric is part of that mist of darkness we have to overcome. Hold fast to the word of God!
I looked for solutions in strictly church approved sources for years and never felt an ounce of peace or happiness. Then one fateful day I considered the counter arguments and almost instantly everything finally started making more sense. I left the church and have never been happier. The church is great for some, but not for all. It’s clear that neither side can definitively prove their position. The best anybody can do is choose the path that feels right to them and support others for doing the same.
I've done the same thing it sounds like you did, and I felt an overwhelming sense of peace and happiness from inside the church and its sources and haven't found any peace outside the church. Strange how we can study the same info and have 2 different conclusions. 1 of us must be wrong...? After thorough study of the critical claims I've found the result to be pretty much spot on with what they've briefly mentioned here in this video post. It's philosophies of men mingled with scripture that ultimately lead a certain direction. After comparing the 2 claims for and against the Gospel of the Restoration I've found the path inside the church of Jesus Christ to seem almost infinite and amazing, while the other just lead me to dead ends and misery, even though it was fun at times. I hope and wish the best for you and everyone on this journey, but I know the path I will take, and recommend, and defend. The reward for sin is death, and righteousness is happiness and the infinite glory of God, and by their fruits ye shall know them. All these simple sayings I believe expose the truth.
"Church approved sources" is an ill-defined concept. D&C 88:118 gives a hint: "And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye *out of the best books* words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith." But "the best books" is not a list. Moroni emphasizes that "it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil;" (Moroni 7:15) We have to do the hard work of seeking the Spirit so we are not deceived. (see all of chapter 7). The "standard works" are given as a standard, as a starting point, which we would do well to heed. But /sola scriptura/ is not a doctrine taught by the Church.
Love the concept of keeping both eyes open. If we take the time to search, we'll find that every argument has an equally compelling counterargument (on both sides). So our beliefs ultimately come down to which voices we choose to listen to. When people leave the church, it's usually because they "close their spiritual eye" and stop searching for solutions to the problems they discover. If you ever consider stepping away from the church, commit to reading the Book of Mormon consistently every day for while, you'll probably end up staying.
When people leave the church, it is usually because they realize the Book of Abraham is a common Egyptian funeral document from 150 BCE, that the BoM has dozens of anachronisms, and that no Middle Eastern DNA has ever been found in any Native American populations ever, not because they, "closed spiritual eyes".
No Preston 🥱. Your absolutism bias, aka black and white thinking is why you think that every argument has an equally compelling counter argument. Preponderance of the evidence is how civil law handles it. You believing weak evidence instead of credible evidence is called being intellectually dishonest and suffering from cognitive dissonance.
So if I read the Book of Mormon and pray about it, and believe it is true, why would that automatically lead me to the lds church? Why not the Church of Jesus Christ?
After reading a lot of the anti stuff out there, I’ve realized it’s a ton of falsehoods and lies mixed in with a grain of truth or truth taken completely out of context. I no longer desire to waste my time on anything the anti’s have to say. I have found a channel “Comeback” where many have left the church, became strong anti’s for many years… and then have comeback to the church. Their stories are vastly different but very strengthening. I also love your channel… it’s fun to see what you are learning and your take on these different perspectives. I choose to “heed the accusers not” anymore, and use my time building my faith and reading the scriptures (Word of God), and His living prophets. ☀️❤️
Ah, my goodly sister in Christ, how uplifting it is to hear that thy faith hath been steadfast and unwavering amidst the tumults and the tempests of opposition. Indeed, it is as the prophet Alma spake in The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, "But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words" (Alma 32:27). Thou hast rightly discerned that many who cast aspersions upon the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints oft mix falsehoods and deceptions with but a grain of truth, or perchance, truth taken wholly out of its rightful context. It is a tactic as old as the serpent in the Garden of Eden, who beguiled Eve with a half-truth. As declared in the Holy Bible, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). Thy discovery of the channel "Comeback" is verily a testament to the resilience and restoration of faith. Yea, as the Lord did speak unto Joseph Smith in the Doctrine and Covenants, "Fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail" (Doctrine and Covenants 6:34). To choose to "heed the accusers not" is a most wise course of action, for it is written, "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock" (Matthew 7:24). Continue, therefore, in building up thy faith through the reading of the scriptures, and listening to His living prophets. For as declared in the Pearl of Great Price, "And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come" (Doctrine and Covenants 93:24). I bear solemn testimony that the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to be found only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. May thy faith be as a beacon unto others, and may the Lord bless thee abundantly in thy righteous endeavors. Amen.
0:49 would've been a perfect thumbnail for this video! Thanks for these kinds of convos. It has occurred to me, the older I've gotten, that the adversary will always appeal to the natural man - whatever it is, he'll appeal to the natural man in all his faults. 1. Reliance on natural senses 2. Reliance on the "wisdom of the world" 3. Introduction of doubt so as to cause one to question his or her paradigm (especially with faith) 4. Ultimately, prideful resolve to denounce the faith of others and mock those who believe.
@@3thingsfishing427 gasp! a family-promoting, faith building, community enhancing church that creates members that outsiders always describe as "happy" is our own adversary??? THANK YOU FOR OPENING MY EYES!!!! I AM FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@Ziplock95You’re free to do what?? Free from doing what we believe and do?? Like Loving our neighbors as ourselves; Loving one another as Jesus loved us; Keeping his commandments; Doers of the word and not hearers only; Being not weary in well doing; Making our light shine before men that they may see our good works, etc, etc, etc.? These things we do gladly because of our love and gratitude for Havenly Father and his son Jesus Christ for what they have done for us and for all mankind. How about you?
This is great stuff guys! I wholeheartedly agree. I recently started reading from the Book of Mormon recently and I've been suprised at just how different my day has been after reading even just a chapter or two. I look forward to seeing more of your content. Thanks!
I'm excited to hear your research. My husband is not a member of the church and it can be such a true challenge. He will try to throw things at me occasionally to shake my faith. I just came back to the church after about 30 years. I had such a powerful spiritual experience i tell him nothing he can tell me will shake my faith. I may not be able to give an answer that suffices him but my faith is so strong. A lot of our religion is faith!! if you are struggling with your faith you probably don't want to spend your time looking at anti mormon vlogs but if you do give at least that much time in prayer and words of our prophets and especially the Book of Mormon. Thanks for what your doing and I pray that it with strengthen peoples testimonies!!
You are in a cult. Read the CES letter, and see the true church history. The BOA is a proven complete fraud. Then read the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John at face value. Turn to the true Jesus of the Bible, without any of the goofy moronic lies.
When you read or watch something, do you feel the spirit of the Lord or the spirit of contention? If you are ❤seeking truth, you will also seek material that invites the Lord's spirit which confirms truth to your heart and mind. Any material that invites the spirit of contention, it will drive the Spirit of the Lord away and you will not learn truth. Our Church Historian, Elder McKay, invited us to look for truth, not error.
The bom is not historically accurate. Those people didn’t exist on this continent especially with those sized civilizations. It didn’t happen and ignoring the problem doesn’t help you
@@shawnbradford2243actually yes they did. Now, I can't prove that, but you most certainly can't prove that they didn't. That is scientifically impossible to prove, so making that claim is actually kind of ludicrous.
I commend you guys for for going on this track and sharing it with others. Almost two decades ago I dove into critical claims of the church and the Book of Mormon and did exactly what you are advocating, which is to look at it openly from both/all views armed with critical thinking, and I walked away with a testimony in the Book of Mormon stronger than ever. I have friends who did not take the same analytical approach who have since left the Church. Thank you, and you're doing great!
I was lucky because by the time I read the CES Letter there were resources out there that pointed out how it didn't even have sources to back it up (I went back and checked and sure enough it didn't) and revealed how it either manipulates the truth or was simply not true which they showed by giving both legitimate sources of what was really true and detailed explainations with a "both eyes open" point of view as you guys have described and gave examples of. My faith was strengthened exponentially and it showed just how decieving and clever the adversary can easily be and will continue to be as we draw closer to the Lord's return. It also reconfirmed how much we can trust in what God has revealed to us through his Holy Spirit, that the wisdom of God is greater than man's, and that in the Lord's timing all questions can and will be answered. But until then or for any questions that aren't answered in this life, we have plenty to lean on that supports what we believe. And, for the rest, God hopes we'll trust him and walk by faith. That has always been a requirement of God from the moment Adam and Eve were driven from the garden of Eden until now and always will be.
The CES letter point about the View of the Hebrews was extremely compelling to me. So what did I do? I read the entire View of the Hebrews book. There are definite similar themes, but it is NOTHING like the Book of Mormon. And it's hilarious John Dehlin and Jeremy Runnels still hold to that despite they obviously haven't read it LOL
You are strawmanning the argument. No one is claiming JS copied VotH, they are saying he borrowed heavily from the mound builder myth that was common in his time and place.
That's definitely NOT what Dehlin says in the tik tok clip played in this episide, which falsely portrays detailed similarities that do not exist! And Dehlin is the exmo proohet so....
My goodness, I at one point in life was concerned about View of the Hebrews, so I read it too, and was struck by how utterly unconcerning it was and how little resemblance it bore to the Book of Mormon.
The strength of the argument for View of the Hebrews is not necessarily that Joseph Smith read it and plagiarized. We don’t have his library card to prove that he read it. That being said View of the Hebrews shows that the ideas of the Book of Mormon regarding native Americans being descendants of Hebrews , that there were two civilizations one that destroyed the other etc were part of the zeitgeist of New England at the time. So Joseph wasn’t drawing on ideas out of thin air .
The worst thing that happens when someone encounters criticisms is that they stop looking or assume they are true. There are answers to all of it. Many of those answers are shockingly simple, others take time to understand.
@@tkstats2245 I think many people are so blindsided by the accusation that they don't know how to respond and think there must be some truth to it because somebody said it, completely forgetting that some people are incompetent researchers and others are simple liars.
Your Jesus is not the Jesus of christianity and your God was once a Man and not Eternally God… Question who made the Laws and Ordinances for your God who once was a man and then was exalted to Godhood like you all claim to strive for? Who was his savior? Who made the Laws? Psalm 90:2 Isaiah 43:10-12, Isaiah 44:6-8 Isaiah 46:9 Isaiah 45:5-18 Proverbs 3:5 Proverbs 28:26 Jeremiah 17:9
@@chiefdigger5216 I'm happy to discuss with you but I don't see the point if your goal is to simply insult me or my faith in the Savior. That said, I assume you are familiar with the concept of eternity. We believe in eternal laws and the eternal existence of God and of all of us. While I don't have a perfect understanding of everything that has ever happened on every planet of the universe, I know that Jesus Christ is my Savior. I know that He suffered, was crucified, died, and was resurrected so that I could be forgiven and return to the presence of both God the Father and Jesus Christ. I take it you don't understand God the Father and Jesus Christ's separate nature the same way we do. I certainly understand that perspective. After all, that's really the root of our Christian differences. That goes back to a very long discussion of Christian theological history but I'd prefer to keep it simple by saying that I agree with you that we do not adhere to the core doctrines and creeds of most modern Christian churches. These differences mostly exist because we didn't go through the same theological evolution. What we follow is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. In other words, we follow the gospel as it was taught anciently.
I read a chunk of the CES letter, and I was not overwhelmed with the questions that it presented. None of it compared the significance of the chiastic and literary structure that I’ve read about. It would be awesome to see you guys present that on your channel.
the CES letter still doesn't present any argument that trumps the combination of these truths: 1) A very uneducated, poor young man either "wrote" (in their view) or translated this book in as little as 2 months and had to include all the complex literary findings present (characters, voice, chiasm, historical accuracy e.g Nahom etc). The thing that doesn't line up with the anti-mormon's claim that he had all of these books Joseph copied text from...HE WAS POOR! His family did not have the means to buy all the books they speculate he "copied" from. So he was either smart and rich, or a prophet. Which is it? They can never choose. 2) The actual accounts of the witnesses state they saw and handled the plates. No, not with "spiritual eyes" (only found in one tertiary source account like 30 years later) but witht heir physical eyes they beheld and felt the plates. 3) Multiple accounts say that Joseph was able to literally pick up from where he left off in the translation without and reference to what the content was the days before, and dictate for hours. Either he memorized his 500+ page book or he translated it by the gift and power of God. The anti's just don't have answers for these things -- they will claim they do, but it's just regurgitating old David Whitmer quotes that arent actually reliable/trustworthy or tertiary sources which aren't trusted in normal research. The church is not afraid to tell the world who Joseph was. They claim they want to hide the "true" Joseph Smith...welp, the church just completed the Joseph Smith project which lets you read for yourself all of the first hand journals, documents etc written by and about Joseph Smith. But we all know most are too lazy to actually read any of the actual research and volumes compiled.
@@GoofyGoober316 have you read the Book of Mormon and asked God if it's true? it changed my life. God confirmed it's truth to me in many instances of my life that are not coincidences and miracles from God. I pray you get to experience what I have.
I was literally just thinking that I haven't come across a comprehensive response to the CES letter. I look forward to going through this series with you guys!
The CES letter Reply by Jim Bennett is a comprehensive response. It addresses every single line of the CES letter, and as a result is significantly longer than the CES letter itself, but is an incredibly enjoyable read! In fact, my first "reading" of the CES letter was through reading the CES letter reply.
I read all the comments and there are definitely a number of people here who have left the church but can't leave the church alone. When I decided in my late teens that the gospel was total bs I didn't waste one second running around bashing those that believed. When I had my smack across the head wake up experience and came back knowing it was all true I now just feel sorry for all the screaming at the world exmos that I run across.
IMO ( will preface this), Faith is NOT about blindly hoping something is true because President Nelson said it was or the popular YT guy presented compelling evidence that it was true. Faith is the act of MOVING FORWARD along a path to gain knowledge. There is NO faith when there is no movement forward. So, why don't we give attention to things like Mormon Stories, that are, by their nature, designed to try to call into question our ideas? Because they WILL cause us to STOP the forward progression of faith. People who say they have gone from "Mormon to Jesus", as an example, have reached a place where forward progress is halted. The search for truth has concluded, because they believe they HAVE the truth and that there "can be no more truth" to the matter. The great thing about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that, as a religion, we are CONSTANTLY discovering new things. Blacks can hold the Priesthood. Prophets are fallible (and it's OK) etc... People who leave that culture start to fall into the thought that their new "prophet" (people like John Delin (sic) are infallible because they "exposed" a fallibility (real or imagined). And fallibilities in this church are in great abundance. but NONE OF THOSE FALIBILITIES MATTER! (cannot over emphasize that point). And why do they not matter? Because GOD runs this church and, if we are patiently waiting on the Lord, we will sort it all out. Faith wouldn't be faith if there weren't obstacles to it. And studying the negatives in life will never bless you with the positives. Christ isn't the Christ because he studied Satan.
The LDS Jesus is not the Jesus of christianity and their false God was once a Man and not Eternally God… Question who made the Laws and Ordinances for your God who once was a man and then was exalted to Godhood like you all claim to strive for? Who was his savior? Who made the Laws? Psalm 90:2 Isaiah 43:10-12, Isaiah 44:6-8 Isaiah 46:9 Isaiah 45:5-18 Proverbs 3:5 Proverbs 28:26 Jeremiah 17:9
@@chiefdigger5216 Good questions! However, only LDS are allowed to ask those kind of questions. But the problem you come across in regards to your suggestion that “God was always God”, is that, if that was true, there could be no Jesus. Pretending that Jesus didn’t have to become perfect, is to deny that e ever told his Disciples “there is none good but the father”. Or that he ever told them that “I do that which I have seen my Father do”. But you’re correct that we don’t believe in the same Jesus as others do… But in some regards it’s the exact same Jesus. Because we also tend to ignore those scriptures to paint the “God was always God” picture.
I was ecstatic when Jim Bennett took on the challenge with respect to the CES letter and his charity towards Runnel’s and other adversarial voices. Bennett’s current MO with respect to the defense of the church and his continuous trust that through his charity for these opposing folks that is a better way may not actually be a good tactic. Dehlin, Reels and the post Mormon groups have really sunk to the oddest and concerning ways that just don’t have the same charity and seem to have adopted the left leaning progressive ideology as their moral spot and have abandoned standard Christianity values and of the LDS perspective on family and temple. Therefore, glad you guys are going into this both eyes open and looking forward to the process and the fruit.
Hark, dear sojourner in the faith, thy thoughts on the noble endeavor of Brother Jim Bennett to engage with the CES letter and those of opposing views are most keenly observed. The scriptures do counsel us to engage in charitable discourse, even with those who dissent from the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Verily, as Paul hath exhorted in the Holy Bible, "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man" (Colossians 4:6). In accordance, Moroni in The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, instructs, "And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things" (Moroni 7:45). While Brother Bennett's charity is commendable, thy concern that such an approach might not be entirely effective is likewise valid. Indeed, the Doctrine and Covenants warns us, "But the Lord knoweth them who are his, and there shall be an eternal weight of glory upon every soul that forsaketh his sins, and glorifieth my name, and obtaineth a crown of righteousness" (Doctrine and Covenants 63:48). Hence, caution should be exercised, for not all who engage in dialogue may be guided by the same principles of charity and truth. Moreover, thy observations on the departure from standard Christian and Latter-Day Saint values by some who oppose the Church are both poignant and concerning. The Pearl of Great Price reminds us, "And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come" (Doctrine and Covenants 93:24). Thus, when any depart from the truth, they also depart from the sure foundation of eternal principles. I bear witness that the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to be found solely within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I rejoice that thou dost seek to engage with both eyes open, discerning the fruits of such efforts. May thy endeavors be blessed and may the Spirit of the Lord guide thee in all righteousness. Amen.
I think it helps to know what the opponent is up to, what they are saying, and thinking. Either that will dissuade you from believing, or it will reinforce what you already know. When I listen or read critical material about the church, the more grateful I am that the truth is in the gospel. It is the Lord’s church.
Thy perspective, @lauralayla3854, is indeed a wise and insightful one. Understanding the viewpoints and arguments of those who may criticize or question one's faith can be a valuable exercise. It allows individuals to engage in thoughtful reflection and strengthen their own convictions. As thou hast expressed, delving into critical material can either lead to a reaffirmation of one's faith or provide an opportunity for personal growth and understanding. It is a testament to the strength of one's beliefs when, upon examining opposing viewpoints, they find that their testimony is reinforced. The knowledge that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church, as well as the truth of the gospel, is a precious foundation upon which to build one's faith. May thy continued study and engagement with various perspectives enrich thy understanding and deepen thy commitment to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In the words of the Savior, as found in John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Continue to seek truth and understanding in all things.
What you’re going to do is heroic, if you can pull it off. The problem with trying to share your view with others (Anti’s or those in the LDS faith) is that once individuals buy into a certain dogma, they tend to focus on things that support that dogma and become blinded or reject anything that doesn’t support it. From my attempt to be more open to all sources, I believe that most people have a very limited and simplistic understanding of who God is, our true relationship with deity, and what His work and glory is for us in the eternal scheme of things. “I give unto you these sayings that you may UNDERSTAND and KNOW HOW TO WORSHIP, and KNOW WHAT YOU WORSHIP…” (D&C 93:19)
I always find it so interesting that many of our members have never tried actually studying the Book of Mormon for a year and praying sincerely and listening every day 2 times, and then immediately leave or get shaken up when reading anti material. If you have never bought fully into the Gospel and sincerely and consistently done the small and simple things then of course what you're reading is going to be a really big challenge. We all got to be better at doing the basics and keeping our relationship with the living God well, ALIVE!
I love how you guys try to be as honest and transparent in your rebuttal. Also, encouraging people read the CES letter and then conducting their own research, evaluating the evidence, and praying about it. In other words, do your own research and investigate it yourself. Don't take anyone's word for it. Then take what you have learned and talk about it with God in prayer and seek wisdom from Him.
Total respect for your transparency and deep thoughts. I just want to point out that there's more than two sides to all these issues. As a niche example, for those on the 'exmormon' side, it's not as if all critics believe BOM is a plagarism of ideas/text from View of the Hebrews. Many believe the book is just one of several examples of circulating ideas (such as the mound-builder myth), which have some similarities to BOM. You may find this suspicious, irrelevant, god preparing Joseph's environment, or have any other number of conclusions. For controversial topics, I tend to find that members error towards plausible deniability -- the idea that we don't know all the details and the data is muddy so you can't make logical assumptions and need to rely on faith and church rhetoric for best solutions. Meanwhile, 'exmember' critics tend to side on impulsively jumping to conclusions given the sparce historical data. I also find perhaps unintentional truth-bending even with the most confident of people on all sides. This being said, there's people of all different types all over. And just like anything, everybody views data with their own ideas and bias. Maybe I'm speaking to the wrong group here, but I'd posit that there's just as much room for spirituality and life satisfaction outside the lds church, as there is within. Maybe you see this as not having a need for church, maybe you see this as a gift of god/light of christ, or maybe you flat out disagree. Either way, I think there's always room for Pres. Russel M. Nielson's plea for peace and kindness towards all parties :).
My husband uses 1 eye closed. he fell away from the church. i 'have studied alot of what critics have said. read and read. I came to the conclusion that most is twisted to what they want to do is "see you should leave the church too." To me some of it the just lie. I had to learn the critics side so i could answer my ex latter day saint. Thanks for your example. I have loved all your shows. I also like the name Stick of Joseph
@Annroe1088, thy journey of studying and seeking understanding is a testament to thy sincere desire to find truth and maintain strong bonds with thy loved ones. It is indeed commendable that thou hast taken the time to explore both sides of the narrative, including the perspectives of critics. In the spirit of brotherly love, I must acknowledge that there are varying viewpoints on matters of faith and belief. It is not uncommon for critics to present arguments or interpretations that may differ from the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Each individual's spiritual journey is unique, and it is crucial to approach such discussions with kindness and understanding. Thy determination to learn and be prepared to answer questions from thy husband demonstrates a desire for open and respectful dialogue. It is through such dialogue and a foundation of love that bridges can be built and understanding can be fostered. May the Lord bless thee in thy efforts to seek truth and maintain meaningful connections with those around thee. As it is written in Proverbs 3:5-6, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Continue to seek His guidance and wisdom as thou navigatest these matters of faith and family.
@@gunnerlawts Verily, I say unto thee, @gunnerlawts, consider the counsel of James, who in his epistle didst exhort the faithful to seek wisdom from the Lord, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not (James 1:5). When one strays from the fold of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, it is a matter most sorrowful. Yet, in the midst of such tribulations, we are implored to hold fast to that which is good and true. For, as it is written in the Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, in the Book of Alma the Younger, "Now, as ye have begun to teach the word even so I would that ye should continue to teach the word. And I would that ye would be diligent and temperate in all things." (Alma 38:10). Seek therefore, to gently guide those who have wandered from the path, that they might, through patient ministration and loving instruction, come to see the light and truth that is found in the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The enticements of the world often whisper seductively to wander 'anywhere' away from the truth. Yet, I say unto thee, it is by the steady compass of the restored gospel that one can navigate through the mists of darkness. Let us cling to the iron rod, the word of God, which leadeth to the tree of life; yea, even let us cling to the rod of iron until we shall partake of the fruit, which is most precious and most desirable above all other fruits (1 Nephi 8:24). In thy discourse with those who have fallen away, remember that the Church doth contain the fullness of the everlasting gospel, as restored through the prophet Joseph Smith, who translated the Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ by the gift and power of God. It is also written in the Doctrine and Covenants, "Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me" (Doctrine and Covenants 21:4). Therefore, be thou an ensign of faith, and bear witness with brotherly love, correcting that which is amiss with kindness, that the truth may be manifest, and the light of the gospel may shine unto all.
@@gunnerlawts Verily, @gunnerlawts, it hath come to mine attention that thou art in discourse about the lyric that proclaims one must be cruel to be kind. Such sentiments do verily contradict the teachings of the scripture, for it is written in the Holy Bible, in the Epistle to the Ephesians, "Be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you" (Ephesians 4:32). Furthermore, in the Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, it is declared, “And above all things, clothe yourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace” (Moroni 7:45). Therefore, I say unto thee, in the spirit of brotherly love, that the doctrine of cruelty as a vehicle for kindness is not aligned with the teachings of the fullness of the everlasting gospel as restored through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The Doctrine and Covenants also teach us to reprove "betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy" (Doctrine and Covenants 121:43). Verily, this is to say that any reproof must be given with divine guidance and followed by an outpouring of love. In kindness, I testify that the path of true kindness is illuminated by the restored gospel within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and it is through this divine institution that the fullness of truth doth shine brightest. Let us then eschew the notion of cruelty as a requisite for kindness and embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, which leads us to love unfeigned.
Gone are the days where we can say stay away from anti-mormon material. I agree all will encounter at some point. I was set up to fail by having a very orthodox, fundamentalist view of scripture, priphets and church history many factual things in church history completely destroyed my faith. There needs to be answers and faithful reconciliations and responses to these criticisms in a thougtful and intellectually honest way. But these criticisms need to be dived deeply into and the counter evidence and arguments must be explored
I watch a ton of videos from ex Mormons and Mormons making arguments for the church and this video was very interesting to me. I appreciate their thoughtful approach for sure. My thought from listening though is the concept of challenging someone from keeping one eye closed while investigating information not from the church. I can apply the same analogy while being raised in the church and an active member for 40+ years. I keep one eye closed to anything but the church’s messages. I feel like that was a problem for me. I closed my one eye and focused only on what I was given from the pulpit. And once I opened two eyes I started to see things differently. Now my experience leaving has been very different…I have not delved into the CES letters or other doctrinal challenging documents. For me, I was pushed because of personal experiences within the church and information that the church decided to reveal after years of not sharing openly. All personal experiences for me nothing defined by others. I do agree that everything comes down to faith…but faith is a tricky thing. There are people that have much faith in crystals and their energy healing process as people that have faith in the priesthood. In the end more than faith is just a choice. You choose what fits best for you and you hope, or have faith in that choice
Mu faith actually increased with the reading of the ces letter. At first it broke my heart and made ke angry that i had been duped. So i got on my knees and asked the lird to show me the truth. And it hadnt been thirty minutes , i found answers to all of the questions. I prayed for more enlightenment, and more came immediately. I was so amazed, the flood of the information hitting me. And it all was mote than i could handle at first. But understanding of our fathers love for us was incredible. I thank the lord everyday for his love and his mercy for doing so , when he didnt have to. And i remember what is in the bible, if any have doubt or want answer ask and ye shall recieve , paraphrasing there. He will not hold us back from knowing our mission here.
So, I have asked about the anachronism of the swords in the Book of Mormon. The response has been that the ancient Aztecs or Mayans had a weapon that was much like a sword. It was a bat with obsidian teeth installed along the edges that was said to be able to remove heads. Would this be your answer to the question about the anachronism of swords in the BoM?
@@blusheep2 Swords have been found in Israel using Damascus Steel which were in use at the time Lehi and his family lived in Jerusalem. Steel is no longer an anachronism!
No, in 1880 it was proven in a U.S. federal court that the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was the legal successor of the church after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844.
I had a buddy send me a snapshot of something that contradicted the church. In fairness, I wanted him to send me examples to better understand his feelings. Right off the bat, I noticed a different font style used in place of a couple sentences which completely altered the truth of the text. Fortunately, typewriters back then weren’t like a word doc. I responded back to my friend calling it out. Ultimately, he wanted out and was only looking for justification to get out. His mind was already made up and was only focused on that. One eye was shut as you point out. The spirit helps to discern, and when we aren’t allowing ourselves to tap into the spirit of truth, we can be drawn into many of the deceptions and snares waiting for us.
Ah, venerable brother or sister, thou hast recounted a tale most instructive. Indeed, the Spirit doth illumine the hearts of those who are earnestly seeking for truth, even amidst the tempests of doubt and the slings and arrows of misinformation. As the Apostle Paul eloquently stated in the Holy Bible, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). This insight harmonizes well with Alma's exhortation in The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, where he says, "O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good" (Alma 32:35). Verily, when one allows preconceived notions to rule the mind, the Spirit of Truth finds scant room to dwell. The Doctrine and Covenants offer us a stern warning in such cases, stating, "And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness" (Doctrine and Covenants 50:23). Thy friend, it appears, was more invested in justifying his course of action than in seeking genuine understanding and truth. When the heart is thus hardened, even the most compelling evidences of the divine can be ignored or twisted into false narratives. Thou art most correct in noting the perils of deception that lie in wait for those who close their spiritual eyes. The Pearl of Great Price assures us that God is the author of truth and light, as revealed through the words of Moses: "And I, God, saw the light; and that light was good" (Moses 2:4). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a bastion against such deceptions, for it holds the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it provides the teachings, ordinances, and covenants that guide us safely back to our Heavenly Father. May thy friendship with this individual be an instrument in the hands of the Lord to sow seeds of faith, and may the Spirit continue to guide thee in discerning truth from error. Amen.
@@3thingsfishing427 Ah, esteemed seeker, thy query toucheth upon matters most weighty and oft-discussed, particularly concerning the divine origins of The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ. Indeed, thou hast alluded to the presence of certain phrases or passages from the 1769 King James Version of the Bible appearing within the Book of Mormon, some of which contain what are considered by some to be translational errors or archaisms. Verily, as with all sacred texts, it is paramount to approach them not merely as earthly artifacts but as spiritual instruments revealed through the agency of divine inspiration. As Paul attested in the Holy Bible, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16). Nephi likewise reminds us in The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, "For my soul delighteth in the scriptures, and my heart pondereth them, and writeth them for the learning and the profit of my children" (2 Nephi 4:15). It is noteworthy that the Doctrine and Covenants avers, "These words are not of men nor of man, but of me; wherefore, you shall testify they are of me and not of man" (Doctrine and Covenants 18:34). Hence, though the Book of Mormon was translated into the idiom familiar to Joseph Smith, including elements of the King James Bible that were pervasive in his cultural milieu, this does not detract from the divine message. Moreover, it is essential to comprehend that Joseph Smith's translation was not a mere linguistic endeavor but a revelatory process, guided by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, elements of the King James Version may have been employed to convey ancient truths in a language and form understandable to his contemporaries. Therefore, I bear solemn testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the sole repository of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the Earth. In its doctrines, we find the keys to eternal life and exaltation, bestowed through sacred covenants and ordinances. While questions about translation are worth pondering, they ought not overshadow the ineffable spiritual truths revealed in The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, whose purpose, as stated in its introduction, is "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations." May the Spirit of Truth enlighten thy understanding and guide thee in all thy endeavors to fathom these eternal verities. Amen.
Growing up in the church I was taught many things that have been walked back by the Church. For me my faith test was Not the CES letter (still have not read it), it was the Gosple topic essays issued by the church. They went against everything I was taught and started my journey to ask more questions. The straw that broke the camels back was when they changed the forward in the BOM. It may seam small but there is a lot of difference in primary and among when talking about the ancestry of the Native Americans. This was especially troublesome due to my Patriarchal Blessing stating that I have the blood of Manasseh running through my veins. There were many other things. I used the test of by their fruits ye shall know them, the Church failed. If anyone wants to discuss further I’m open to that.
One of the things I have learned in my life, is that sometimes I have assumed that personal beliefs of my teachers was the official policy of the LDS Church. I have found that many of those traditions were not found in the scriptures, Handbook of Instructions, or most of the official teachings guides or manuals. If a tradition is not taught in the authorized literature, why would my teachers believe it? Because sometimes the folk traditions/ oral culture is more interesting that the simple doctrines of salvation. Humans in general want things to be binary, we do not like nuance or ambiguity. So oral traditions move beyond what the printed canon doctrines teach. And often, those it is those popular traditions that the Church is walking back. Taught not from the official manuals, but by the personal opinions of the teachers.
I haven't read View of the Hebrews either, but it's on Audible and this is what the Publisher's Summary says: "This book presents a theory (widely held in the 1820s religious community) that Native Americans are descended from the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel and suggests that the similarities between Native American and Jewish customs, as well as archaeological evidence, support this theory."
I grew up in the church and graduated from seminary, institute and served a mission in the late 80’s. As a Black member I questioned a lot of things about the church that didn’t make sense. The things the apostles and prophets said about Black people are very offensive. Yet members of the church choose to ignore the blatant racism of these brethren. Then to find out the church tried to hide billions from the members is just wrong. Leaders of old said there would be a time tithing is no longer needed from the members. Well I think the time has come! You can try to explain away all this but the facts are too overwhelming for me to believe anymore. Imagine if you were a Black person. How would you feel? Food for thought.
Good stuff Dudes. I love your genuine way you speak with faith and testimony. It’s a great balance. Keep seeking in hope and humility. The BoM changed my life when I was 17, and I haven’t looked back since. The real problem with so many peeps out there is that they stop seeking and having personal experiences thru the Holy Ghost with the BoM. It really is that simple. Have me on your show!! I’m a Full time S&I instructor and I own a gym. I’m all about ownership in our journey with Christ and the restored gospel - heart, mind and body. Ha. Keep at it!
I love you, boys! I realize that you’re not really boys you are young men. Amazing young man! And I don’t want to puff your heads up or make you feel proud, I Just want to let you know that you’re doing a good work and I appreciate it. I am amazed at the amount of knowledge that you have and how open your hearts are and your love for truth. I’m just turning 60 years old. I have believed in the prophet, Joseph Smith, and the book of Mormon and the Bible, my entire life and I thought I was strong. And then I had one of my children get mixed up with some Christians and he brought home a whole bunch of stuff for me to read. I went into panic mode. I was like how on earth could I have been deceived? Like you have been saying, everything that was written was written as though it was fact and had been proven. When in reality, as I have studied for myself, and listen to other studied points of view, I have found so many more documents and other things to prove the opposite of that which they have been claiming. I am much more at peace than before this experience. I have had more of spirit of the Lord and a greater testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith, and the restoration of the gospel. I wish that I had known you guys and others before I got hit in the face with the contradictions. I had heard most of them before, but I’ve never heard or read them as being fact. Keep up the good work and God bless you!
Hi guys, always interesting but an off-topic question. Does the Corps teach you to keep both eyes open when shooting. Wouldn't a flash of light disrupt your night vision by shutting down your visual purple?
“I have a hard time with historians because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys...Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting.” - Boyd K. Packer
I haven't always agreed with you guys… However, you taking upon yourself to dissect the CES letter… All I can say is hallelujah… Finally, somebody's willing to do this… Props
I actually think the CES letter should be required reading for every person preparing for a mission. Through the deep studying of it, my testimony has actually been strengthened.
@@melissasuzuki9528 There are many non-Christian archaeologists that testify that ancient artifacts validate at least some of the Biblical history, but why is it that not one single archaeologist has found anything that validates even a small portion of the BOM american history?
Yeah of course, a couple months ago I was looking into the LDS faith because I was in a faith crisis. I was sure it was true until I heard of some doctrine that sounded crazy to me (like how we can become a god one day in Doctrine and Covenants 132) as well as this letter kind of stumped me, especially with the names being similar to the towns. But ultimately I'm interested to see where this will lead @@thestickofjoseph
I hope you stick around! I’ve been in similar shoes and eventually came to see that the rest of the Christian world provided me with more serious questions that fulfilling answers.
@@nataliej783 All children are children of adults, and every child that lives long enough become adults; none can stop that from happening. Does God say we are his offspring? Does he say he wants us to be like him? Does he offer all he has? Then why not a title? He isn't saying we replace him or usurp his status. It's nothing to get hung up on.
@nataliej783 - take a look at John 10:33-34. Notice how in verse 33 God is capitalized inferring that Christ was stating He was God (capital G), but in verse 34 Christ says “ye are gods” lower case “g” implying that we have the potential to become gods (as a title, not as one being worshipped) one day but that is not to be confused with THE. God. We only have one God who we worship, that is all. Hope this helps
All those who criticize The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints won't like this series. Expect them to attack you for each thing you prove wrong, and say "See we told you!", for everything you don't prove wrong, even though it still isn't proved right. Now here is something I have yet to see anyone cover. Are you familiar at all with the story of Hiawatha? Hiawatha, along with a character whose name Dekanawidah was given to him by Hiawatha or others, translates as The Great Peacemaker, convinced five tribes to unite under a peace treaty. These five tribes live in the area around the Great Lakes, including Upstate New York. Part of the treaty included not digging up objects, that would include the hill where Joseph Smith Jr. Found the Plates. This treaty was also a major inspiration for The Constitution Of The United States Of America. Whether this Dekanawidah was Moroni, John The Beloved or someone else is impossible to know unless God reveals it. But those are some remarkable happenstances.
I certainly appreciate the effort to rebut anti-Christ literature, however I don't think every point needs to be conclusively rebutted. Once we see a pattern of behaviour we know the nature of the beast. Getting one thing wrong is forgivable, getting a few complex things wrong could be considered clumsy; but when easily verifiable points are proved false repeatedly you know that truth is not a core value of the author. At some point you must come to the conclusion that the desire to discredit Christ's church has overcome all other intentions, morals, and desire for credibility. At that point it is no longer necessary to continue refuting - if there was something genuinely unassailable he would have discarded the falsehoods, and lead with the show-stoppers.
I wish you the best in reading View of the Hebrews. I read it and it is the most repetitive, boring book I have read in a long time. It was really tough to get through and I bears little to no resemblance to the Book of Mormon. The comparisons made in the CES Letter and by John Dehlin are not accurate and purposely deceiving. I have listened to an exmo podcast where John Dehiln admits he has not even read the View of the Hebrews. He is intentionally trying to destroy faith and lead people astray. He was doing the same thing even before he left the church back in 2008. I listened to a podcast of his back then when he spoke of the View of the Hebrews as if he was an expert on its contents when he had never even read the book. I look forward to hearing your review the CES letter. I have done a similar thing and have found most of the points made in the letter have little to no foundation in truth.
I have also read VotH front-to-back. It had a few letters of praise from prominent Ministers in the pages before the book started. This was about seven years prior to the BoM being first published. The Christian movement soon took a completely different tack shortly after, saying Ethan Smith was a crazy deceiver. They threw him under the bus because all of a sudden they didn't want people to believe there was any connection with the Holy Land in the Americas.
The LDS church historian B.H. Roberts submitted the following report on comparing "View of Hebrews" to the Book of Mormon. He found these similarities: The destruction of Jerusalem The scattering of Israel The restoration of the Ten Tribes Hebrews leave the Old World for the New World Religion a motivating factor Migrations a long journey Encounter “seas” of “many waters” The Americas an uninhabited land Settlers journey northward Encounter a valley of a great river A unity of race (Hebrew) settle the land and are the ancestral origin of American Indians Hebrew the origin of Indian language Egyptian hieroglyphics Breastplate, Urim & Thummim Prophets, spiritually gifted men transmit generational records The Gospel preached in the Americas Quotes whole chapters of Isaiah Good and bad are a necessary opposition Pride denounced Sacred towers and high places Messiah visits the Americas Idolatry and human sacrifice Hebrews divide into two classes, civilized and barbarous Civilized thrive in art, written language, metallurgy, navigation Government changes from monarchy to republic Civil and ecclesiastical power is united in the same person Long wars break out between the civilized and barbarous Extensive military fortifications, observations, “watch towers” Barbarous exterminate the civilized Discusses the United States
As someone not of your faith but as a Follower of Christ. One of the biggest things I struggle with is if God was of flesh and bone like us who made him? Another interesting I have been reading the book JS mother wrote and she talks about this dream JS fahter had when JS was only 6. Its the story about the tree of life. I find it interesting that same story or dream ended up in the book of Mormon. I like watching your videos though but I still struggle with your faith.
I read through the CES letter and it didn’t faze me at all. I didn’t even finish it because it didn’t ring true to me. But like you said, it helped me know how solid I am in the gospel. I have been in and out of the church…it’s all true! Most anti Mormon stuff gives a couple truths and a bunch of lies. You are so right…this stuff presents partial truths in a twisted way.
We are to pray before we read anything that could effect your relationship with Christ. I just know Christ says hold on to the iron rod. These are the days of great deceit and you know who is very sly and angry. he knows he is losing. The CES letter is another negative satan has thrown.
About this line of thinking. First, forever my respect! I'm not a Marine, but I am a retired LEO. Also for a few years, a LEO Firearms Instructor for the Department. Totally understand the concept of "both eyes open" for keeping a combat ready "off eye" and field of vision. And I agree to using that principle in examining the evidence. I'm 72. In short, being confronted with the fact that there are at least 2 versions of every cherished story about the Restoration I grew up with, started for me at age 69. The 3rd week in July of 2020. Here are some of the things I can't climb over. 1) The 3 versions of the First Vision. Nobody who saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, and had a conversation with Them, would have 3 not only different, but very different versions of how that happened. 2) The BOM story. I personally love the BOM. Always will. But the dozen major problems with its history, keeps it from being more than a very-very inspirational book, filled with reasons to love and have faith in Christ. Which is okay with me. 3) The Priesthood Restoration story, which has at least 2 very contradictory versions, with the ugly version predating the one we were told, is a huge problem. How did the ugly story predate the beautiful story? In fact, how does every beautiful story we were told, have an ugly story that predates the beautiful story? Since when do the lies come out before the truth ever comes out? 4) Polygamy. I took an oath of honor and that oath still means a lot to me. What man of honor, would ever privately marry child brides? Other men's wives? Or would every get involved in another man marriage at all? Correct if I'm wrong, but if not currently, in the past, going after another soldiers wife while he was deployed, was worthy of a Dishonorable Discharge. So Joseph goes after Henry Jacob's and Orson Hyde's and other men's wives?? Or the 20 or so other women? And don't you dare blame this on Jesus, saying we're not sure why Jesus had Joseph do that!! That isn't Jesus, that isn't Jesus' ways. If Joseph saw an angel with a flaming sword, it wasn't Jesus who sent him. That's not Jesus either. Emma was his 22nd wife he had sealed to him. Joseph never sealed himself to his parents or his children. It was Wilford Woodruff, our 4th Prophet, that stopped being able to seal yourself to orher mens wives and to other men. Cresting Celestial Dynasties. The first 7 Prophets had maybe as many as 250 wives, all 7 marrying 15 year old girls while in their 40s and 50s. Where is the honor here? Where is the sanctity of marriage? And don't blame that on Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, Solomon and David. NONE of them were commanded to go into Polygamy. 5) The Temple ceremony? 22 matches to the Masonic ceremony? 7 weeks after Joseph became a Grand Mason? And don't tell me the Temple ceremony hasn't changed and changed. What? Did Jesus get it wrong when He gave it to Joseph? Or is Jesus yielding to political correctness now? 6) Over 100 billion in cash in the stock market? No little hospitals, little schools, thousands of water wells all around the world? Because Jesus needs the money when He returns? Are you serious? He knows where every piece of gold, every diamond, every gem in the would is! He needs 100 billion dollars in the stock market that will be totally worthless when He comes? 7) Oaks when asked if he'd ever seen Jesus, answered, "No, and I don't know anyone who has." What??? Who is ordaining these guys??? Each other??? I could go on. But I too see the value of the Church. It teaches sooo many great principles. But so does every other church. That doesn't make them true. Jesus either started this Church or He didn't. If He did, then Jesus ordered the dishonerable corruption OR He was complicit with it OR He couldn't stop or control the boys. So, was He in on it? Complicit with it? Or couldn't control the boys? You can't save Joseph without incriminating and crucifying Jesus. This is a great Church. No doubt. But it's just another church. The facts, not the "scope eye" proves that.
I think from my experience, it took seeing the events through a different lens than my own thinking. For example, you mention the polygamy, which was something that bothered me for some time. I believed the church so much that I tried to figure out why it was ok. That, for me, was the wrong approach and about broke me. I ultimately got comfortable that they could have botched it and at least some of them did. And maybe Joseph even came to regret it. The angel “account” came up years after the prophet’s death, if I’m not mistaken. The three versions of the first vision haven’t bothered me enough to dive in but it does seem that different audiences may have been a factor. The $100 billion is odd in isolation but imagine the tragedy it would have been had they given it away when it was $30 billion. Because they prudently invested in what I believe is the greatest run up in stock market history, there are likely billions and billions more available to help. And such a high amount is a fairly recent event. Rolling out programs like water wells, hospitals, food pantries, etc. is not an easy endeavor when the church is primarily run by lay members. And what do you spend it on? Feeding the poor? Refugees? Rainy day fund? Hospitals? Cleaning up the oceans? Water for the Salt Lake? Meetinghouses? Technology? Education? The next recession? There’s so many things that they have to weigh. As for the temple ceremony, Don Bradley shares some interesting insight as to why it was around before Joseph’s involvement with masonry. I’d look it up - very fascinating. I guess I’m saying that for those who see the world with black and white precision like I do and like you appear to (forgive me if I’m wrong, I’m just seeing you’re careful to capitalize perfectly the names and pronouns of God, you have bullet points of issues, your grammar and spelling is meticulous, etc), I would just be open to an array of possibilities (as you likely have been). After a long time of being bothered and losing faith, the spiritual experiences that I’ve had confirms to me that God is in this work and I think we’d all be wise to be ok with the frailties of men. I look at my own life and as much as I try, I botch things daily, but I don’t think it means I’m not being led overall. Anyway, your answer seemed very sincere and I felt I could share my thoughts without getting beat up afterwards. I hope I haven’t offended as I did.
@@jared2734 Jared, thank you very much for your reply. I read it twice and enjoyed every bit of it. You pegged me well, I am indeed a sincere man and seeker of truth and I can see that in you as well. As a retired LEO (law enforcement officer) of 25 years, I have lived my career by walking into every crime scene and checking my biases at the door. In other words, if the suspect is my friend, I view and collect the evidence as the evidence is, regardless of my feelings for my friend. I've lived my career that way because it absolutely has to be that way. As an investigator, if you're not willing to hang your own friend, you are doing a disservice to your fellow man and you disgrace your oath and badge. So as I sort through everything, I wrestle with my training. But I too have had numerous spiritual experiences during involvement in our Church which I do not or cannot dismiss or explain away. They were real and I know they were real. So now I struggle with, were my experiences real because the Church is true? Or because Jesus lives and is in all our lives? As a law enforcement chaplain for 10 years, specifically representing our Church and trained by our Church to be ecumenical in my service, I witnessed many such spiritual experiences in the lives of members of all faiths. That we LDS members didn't have the market on that. It was at first very puzzling to me to realize Jesus is in their lives, just as He is in mine. So the Spiritual experiences couldn't mean the Church was true, they had to mean Jesus was true and He lived and was in all our lives. I have tried very hard to be truthful to others and to myself. I am very spiritually driven, but also very factually driven. I've prayed several times for a witness the Church is true and the Book of Mormon is true, and have never received that confirmation. I've even twice ridden my motorcycle from here in Phoenix, to the Sacred Grove, just to pray and get my promised confirmation, spending most of the day there, doing it. But even so, never received it. I've always felt Jesus must feel I already knew and I didn't need my own confirmation. I've served on 2 high councils, served in 2 bishoprics, twice served as ward mission leader, as an LDS prison minister, and as an LDS law enforcement chaplain. But never got that confirmation and I'm not willing to put my finger on the scale to get it. I stay totally open and totally in the middle of the road and wait. Any investigator can put his finger on the scale and say, "look at it this way" which always requires a distorting of the facts. Anyway Jared, thank you very-very much. Dios sea contigo. (God be with you.)
Maybe this all comes down to faith. I was a Lutheran girl and as a little girl already had faith- promoting dreams. Yet, as an Evangelical Lutheran my church did not feed my desire to grow. Thre was no answers. Somehow the LDS missionaries found me at my late teens, early twenties and those boys brought the spirit I was missing. I got on this vehicle. Thre was a time the tires were blown on this vehicle, but the good Lord pumped them back up and I have stronger faith in Jesus and the Plan of savation than ever before. I have been a member now over 50 years. I have had 4 children and often the church is referred to like a woman. Church had labor pains, mishaps etc and I believe when we did, we were rebuked. How does one run a perfect organization with infallible men and women? Thank goodness, that the Catholic church brought through and preserved the Bible. How would we do today, if we were asked to restore the Church. How perfect would we be? When the Holy Spirit pierces that testimony of Jesus and this work, it goes through the heart. Daily repentance is a must. Daily studying and praying will keep us loving and knowing Jesus and that is what it is all about. I am riding in my vehicle all the way. I wish it was made of gold, but it's just a wagon, but it's mine. Jesus brought me to this church and to thus country. That's what matters to me. My testimony is simple, but sufficient to Jesus. I love the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
@@lafrancehannele6884 Not a bad way to look at it. Not a car made of gold, just an old car. And I agree. I'm very quick to talk about all the good this Church does in the lives of the members. And I'm very aware Jesus has to work with imperfect people. But I don't believe He works with corrupt people at all. Loves them, but doesn't partner with them. There is only one thing that is really wrong with this Church and it is what keeps it under attack. It is that we claim to be the one and only true Church on the face of the earth. Anyone, anyone at all who makes that claim, deserves to be throughly investigated and proven. "No one gets to the Celestial Kingdom unless they come through us?" I'm totally fine with that concept and belief. But you dont get to make stories up or change the facts of the stories so you can prove this Church true by the facts you've changed. If the facts can't stand on their own, it isn't the facts that are wrong. It's the conclusion. Why should it not be that way? When a tree sprouts forth from the ground and later becomes a giant forest king, the period where it was coming forth from the ground, it where it was the most pure and perfect. Why do we not have that here? If Jesus started this Church Himself, why was it not it's most pure then, when He started it? I have erased a lot of what I first said, and will say this again, this Church teaches a lot of wonderful things and raises up some incredible people. But every Church does that. And if it works for you, perfect. But you don't get to say everything we've taught is true and essential for your salvation, you must follow and believe it, unless you can pass the litmus test. And we can't. Why is that important? Because lives are being unfairly manipulated. the members. And I'm very aware Jesus has to work with imperfect people. But I don't believe He works with corrupt people at all. Loves them, but doesn't partner with them. There is only one thing that is really wrong with this Church and it is what keeps it under attack. It is that we claim to be the one and only true Church on the face of the earth. Anyone, anyone at all who makes that claim, deserves to be throughly investigated and proven. "No one gets to the Celestial Kingdom unless they come through us?" I'm totally fine with that concept and belief. But you dont get to make stories up or change the facts of the stories so you can prove this Church true by the facts you've changed. If the facts can't stand on their own, it isn't the facts that are wrong. It's the conclusion. Why should it not be that way? When a tree sprouts forth from the ground and later becomes a giant forest king, the period where it was coming forth from the ground, it where it was the most pure and perfect. Why do we not have that here? If Jesus started this Church Himself, why was it not it's most pure then, when He started it? I have erased a lot of whats I first said, and will say this again, this Church teaches a lot of wonderful things and raises up some incredible people. But every Church does that. And if it works for you, perfect. But you don't get to say everything we've taught IA true and you must follow and believe it, unless you can pass the litmus test. And we can't. Why is that important? Because lives are being unfairly manipulated.
@@lafrancehannele6884 My reply is on the main feed, which wasn't my intent, but okay. I'm totally okay with just being faithful, but when you ask that I overlook the facts and altered stories, I'm not okay with it and I don't think Jesus is either.
I know the gospel is true and therefore so is the Book of Mormon. The validity of the book will not come from intellectual means but by the spirit of the Holy Ghost testifying as of the truthfulness of it and any other question you have so build your spiritual muscles. Immerse yourself in the church and your callings. NO need to listen to those Gadiantons who only want to destory Christ's children.
As for the CES letter, it was not written by a professor. It was written by a return missionary who had simple questions as to why what we were told, is now changing?? Why things we used to get excommunicated for, are now admitted to on Gospel Topics Essays. So dont over rate the CES letter. Those are factually based questions worthy of an answer. We're betting everything we told is necessary for our salvation and exaltation is here. Why should we be expected to not look at the facts surrounding the Churches claims?
@@gunnerlawts name literally just one topic in the CES letter that isnt true. Ask me about any topic, and i can give you LDS approved literature to back it up
@@mikkifrompreston4396 @gunnerlawts Did you have our last two comments removed? I'm sure the conditions have changed. It's a good thing these guys are going to canvass every topic, and you can give those references in the comments every time. If you have manipulated the comments, then you are lower than a gutter snake. I have had a lot of Christians do similar over eleven years of discussions on RU-vid, so I wouldn't be surprised. You don't have much in the way of comprehension skills, because I have said that I haven't read the CES letter, so how would I know what topics weren't true? I only commented from what I had reliably heard, and that's why I arranged for you to pick the topics. No matter, these guys are going through the lot - I'll watch for your references.
@@gunnerlawtsWhat is your view on the Book of Abraham facsimiles translations, and how Josephs dont match up with correct translations? Or the DNA evidence of native Americans originating from Asia, instead of Middle eastern lineage like the Book of Mormon claims?
Be curious, be hungry and search after answers to questions. Thats exactly what ex mormons did. Thats also the reason why Jeremy ended up writing his CES letter.
That's a false statement. Jeremy wanted to leave the church while pretending to have a modicum of dignity, like all who use anti material to cover their true reasons. He just went all-in and collected all the gossip and lies and presented it to the Church Education System as questions - note; questions don't have answers, and all the CES did was not answer, either. It doesn't mean his material was true. It was not the role of the CES to address anti material in the first place, so they were right in not doing so. Jeremy resigned right before a church court was about to determine if he had breached LDS standards by going public with the gossip and lies, now saying they were true. He saved them from even making a determination. Sometimes even idiots do the right thing. Happy to teach you why ex-LDS are only hungry for scapegoats and are prepared to lie to even themselves to use their favourite ones.
@@gunnerlawtsinternet exposed the lds doctrines. Internet forced lds church to produce the Gospel topic essays. Church leaders need apologists to answer tough questions.
@@bagnasbayabas "internet exposed the lds doctrines." That's nonsense. Since shortly after 1830 there have been bible study classes in many sects that have focused on LDS doctrines. Then there are the books and pamplets they have produced. Also, they haven't limited their guff to doctrine - lots of policies and history thrown in. The internet is just an additional way. "Internet forced lds church to produce the Gospel topic essays." Once again - nonsense. The internet began in 1982, and GTE began in 2013, so there are 30 years of the church not doing anything about it, after 180 years of ignoring garbage and attempted pressures from weak cults. The church has not said the internet was the reason. In fact, this is their reason: "Recognizing that today so much information about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can be obtained from questionable and often inaccurate sources, officials of the Church began in 2013 to publish straightforward, in-depth essays on a number of topics." This means it's every questionable and inacurate source, and that the internet is not excused, but no admission the net forced them to do it. It also means they decided providing one source that can't be questioned and is accurate was good for the public. This is a decision of men high in the organisation, and is neither here nor there whether it is done or not. "Church leaders need apologists to answer tough questions." Well, anti's need devils to pose tough questions. I don't know that you are any more right with your statement than mine. Have you ever walked up to a leader and put a tough question to them? They have been answering them since 1830, and I believe few will pull out an Essay to answer you today. We LDS get our toughest questions answered by the Holy Ghost, and GTE are just of minor interest. Runnells was peeved when CES wouldn't answer questions, and is probably even more peeved now that he has GTE. You clowns are never satisfied.
Cult is a term, in most contexts pejorative, for a relatively small group which is typically led by a charismatic and self-appointed leader, who excessively controls its members, requiring unwavering devotion to a set of beliefs and practices which are considered deviant (outside the norms of society). AS IN polygamy, polyandry, ignoring historical evidence....
Your post with the definition of a Cult (which is from Wikipedia and a very good definition) PROVES that the LDS Church is not a cult. 1. The Church has 17,000,000 members, 10 members of Congress are Mormon, the former Senate President was Mormon, That is not a "relatively small group". There are more Mormons than Jews in the world ,check it. Leaders of large companies are Mormon, A Mormon ran for President. Where is this "relatively small group"? 2. Who is the charismatic self appointed leader? Is it Joseph Smith, I hate to make you aware but he is dead, the Church has had 17 Presidents or Prophets and they are not self appointed. The real leader of the Church is Jesus Christ. Any member would tell you that. 3. What on Earth are the "deviant practices" There are none! You are just making that one up. That we don't drink alcohol or coffee, teach about sex out of marriage, a lot of people and Churches do that. Ignoring historical evidence like what? What is the historical evidence that a man built a huge ship and put 2 of every species on earth in it, and the earth was flooded? Prove it now! Do you believe in the Bible? At least 30 men in the Bible were polygamists including Moses, Abraham and David. Were they all in a Cult? Muslims have polygamy today, In 1/3 of the countries in the World polygamy is legal today. I don't want polygamy, but you would have to disqualify the Bible if you stand by that.
@@davidbuxton3114 aaah, have you read your "prophets" hand written letters to young teenagers trying to convince them that their celestial eternity depended on having sex with him?
@RespekfulFungus let’s review: [relatively small group] millions of members spanning the entire globe in every nation Christianity is allowed. [charismatic and self appointed leader] which of the 17 leaders were charismatic and self appointed? How many cults remain when a charismatic leader dies? [controls its members] members choose their behavior, but there are consequences, nobody is forced or coerced to do anything. [deviant practices from past "norms"] none are practiced in the modern church, and haven’t been for a very long time. This is all an interpretation heavily influenced by *personal* interpretation and bias.
A LONG AGO,, I ACTED, AND TOOK AWAY FROM MY VOCABULARY, I DON,T CARE. THREE WORST CONBINATION OF WORDS, IN THE WORLD. THOSE THREE WORDS ARE ACTUALLY, A TRUTH DISCLOSE STATEMENT.
The dumb argument about not trusting our hearts is taken out of context (the verse says the heart that departs from the lord is not to be trusted... IE the heart that chases after anti would be the heart not to trust.) When in Romans 10:9-10 9 says "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." THIS IS SAYING BELEIVING IN YOUR HEART IS ACTUALLY HOW WE ARE SAVED... so that argument damns anyone that believes God does not CONVICT us in our hearts.
The verse is in Jeremiah 17. Reading it, I don't see that context. Certainly after the verse it doesn't say that. Prior to the verse it speaks of those who don't trust in the Lord and those that do, but verse 9 doesn't link directly to either one of those verses. If anything it seems to be saying don't follow your heart but rather put your trust in God. The other verses are good verses to consider and any Christian would be in error if they were to say that we are supposed to suppress our emotions. That being said, I think the verses are an equivocation of what is being referenced in Jeremiah which seems to be a more general rebuke. Its no secret that our hearts can lead us astray. For instance, it has been said that most people don't hold to their beliefs because of evidence but because of desire. That is all about the heart. When someone prays and asks God for wisdom about the truth of a thing, are they really asking God or have they already decided what they want to hear and so hear it? That is all the deception of the heart and its so subtle that most won't even notice it. When the Bible warns us off of bad actors, it doesn't say, "your heart will know." It gives us more objective standards. It tells us to look at the fruit they produce. It tells us to question if the new teaching conforms with the old. These are objective standards. In fact, Jesus never said, "just believe." He appealed to scripture. He appealed to the miracles. There is nothing wrong with feeling at peace with your beliefs. I would expect anyone who truly holds to a belief will feel at peace with them. Whats wrong is when that is the only standard and we are asked to ignore the objective tests of scripture in favor of a deceitful heart.
“Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the Lord.... he then explains the opposite which would be "TRUSTING in the Lord with all our heart." as it also explains in Ephesians, one of the most quoted scriptures of all Christianity (but when it comes to arguing with Mormons, forget that verse we love and lets decide NOT to use our hearts to worship God because they are just dark worthless pits of deciet) @@blusheep2
This is the problem with all of Christianity, we can all use the same verses to argue COMPLETELY different doctrine. Every church has verses they think prove themselves right and that prove everyone else wrong... check out "The Blueprint Of Christs Church" The Church Of Jesus Christ believes we are FOLLOWING Christs biblical order more exactly than any other church. (the problem is so does every other denomination and even non-denomination).
This is why we believe modern day revelation is so crucial. If the apostles weren't in town for a couple months the church started doing all kinds of crazy stuff so they had to write them letters of correction... IMAGINE what the church has done with thousands of years not having apostles. Why would God set up structure to keep the church inline and then abandon that structure he put in place?
@@bravengrant26 That isn't a problem with Christianity. It is a problem with human nature. People don't usually form their beliefs around evidence but around desire and when desire rules then human nature takes over and disconfirming evidence is first denied and then forgotten about. The only way around this is to truly desire truth before your God, your religion, you doctrine, knowing that if these things are indeed true then your desire for truth will be your desire for these things. Jesus didn't build a structure. He chose 12 for theological messaging and gave them a purpose. Those 12 set up a structure in the early church.
The CES Letter is an overwhelming shotgun blast of like 200 items. The large majority of items can be explained. But the purpose is to show that in even ONE of those has to be right! So the Church must not be true.
@@thestickofjoseph 🤣🤣🤣(in my high maintenance entitled voice) embarrassing (while flicking my hair to the back with my well manicured nails)🤦🏾...Thanks for your great content guys...this episode was💯👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Verily, dear interlocutor, it is evident that the matter of faith doth pose unto thee a stumbling block, and yet I beseech thee to consider it in another light. Indeed, faith is not a blinder that keepeth both eyes shut, but rather a lens that permits us to perceive things otherwise invisible. It is as the Apostle Paul declared in the Holy Bible, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Furthermore, as Alma the prophet expounded in The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, "And now as I said concerning faith-faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true" (Alma 32:21). Herein lies the profound wisdom of the Gospel: that faith is not a denial of reality but an embrace of a greater reality yet unseen. Indeed, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches that faith and reason are not adversaries, but companions in the search for truth. In the Doctrine and Covenants, we are counselled, "Seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith" (Doctrine and Covenants 88:118). Thy skepticism doth remind me of the wisdom found in the Pearl of Great Price, wherein the Lord saith unto Moses, "And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me" (Moses 6:63). Therefore, even the things of the earth can attest to the greater spiritual truths, if we but have the eyes to see. I bear solemn witness that the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to be found only in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. May thy journey, whether it be one of faith, skepticism, or inquiry, lead thee to the everlasting truths that can provide peace in this life and eternal joy in the life to come. Amen.
Nah, look at all the faith necessary for belief in the big bang or dark matter despite all the "unexpected" evidences over the past 40 years that have led to a crisis in cosmology and faithful hanging on to a model that doesn't fit the evidence or the billions spent on the search for dark matter that has come up empty no matter what the permutations postulated. An enormous amount of faith there.
Tithing funds millions of dollars in salaries and programs for the CES and Church Correlation. It’s a bummer that members have to step up and compensate for the lack of doctrinal exposition. LDS Apologists and scholars really need to step up. Aloha
@@gunnerlawts , ironically, the so-called “anti-material” members were excommunicated for during the 1990s, was used by the Church as data and reference for the Gospel Topics Essays in the 2010s. The CES has no accountability for poor performance, and resembles a paid clergy of Pharisees. We can do better.
@StickOfJospeh You keep refusing to have a discussion with a non-LDS historian like Dan Vogel, or many others. Yet, you want us to trust you that you will be fair? But yet you acknowledge that you have been brainwashed since birth into LDS?
YOU ARE GOING TO BE CHALLENGED IN LIFE. THE DUMPING OF THE CES LETTER ON SOME PEOPLE WILL DEMOLISH THEM. AS A REFORMED, ONCE FORMED, THEM CAME BACK REFORMED, A PERSON NOT WITH ONE OPEN, BIT TWO EYES OPEN. ALAS, WELL IT CAME TO PASS, I CONDSIDERED HOW THE. LORD CAME TO MOSES AND SAID MY SON. THEN HE MORE FULLY OPENED UP TO MOSES. HEAVENLY . NOT MUCH LATER, SATAN CAME AND SAID TO MOSES AND SAID, WORSHIP ME. MOSES SAID, YOUR JUST ABOUT LIKE ME, WHERE IS YOUR GLORY, FOR I CAN LOOK UPON ME, AS A NATURAL MAN. SATAN HAS, HAD, WILL ALWAYS HAVE BAD TIMING. YEP, THAT,S WORSE THAN BAD BREATH, HONEY. . THAN BAD BREATH
What you suggest is a waste of time. We already know the Church is true, the gospel has been restored and Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. Both eyes open? We have an eye single to the gory of God. The Church is the Biblical church of Jesus Christ which he built through his Apostles whom he ordained and guided by revelations. There is no church like it in the world today. The war that began in heaven when Lucifer and his angels rebelled against God rages on the earth to this very day. It has always been the war between good and evil. Satan and his minions are using every trick in their book to shun people away from the truth, because they know the second coming of Jesus is nearing. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is seriously engaged in preparing its members and the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ, who is the central figure of our faith. We Latter-day Saints know where we stand and whose side we are really on. How about you?
@@thestickofjoseph The best answer is to point them to LDS material, however, your work has a benefit to those delving into wrong sources - it can save them from a huge mistake. Either that, or it will condemn the truly wicked when they meet God.
You are in a cult. Read the CES letter, and see the true church history. The BOA is a proven complete fraud. Then read the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John at face value. Turn to the true Jesus of the Bible, without any of the goofy moronic lies.
I have read the CES letter. 70% of it is obvious BS. The other 30% means nothing to me because the other 70% is such a glaring admission of what the letter is.
You all need the find the book VIEW OF THE HEBREWS. Read it, find out why it was written, where it was written. The Smith family had close access to it as did Oliver Cowdery. Thomas Ferguson started the department of Archeology at BYU. He after 17 years of research and finding no evidence of the people or places in the BOM but did discover the VIEW OF THE HEBREWS, left BYU and the church.
You guys will both be out of the church within 5 years. You’re starting to look at the issues more honestly, which I commend you for. Once you break the hypnotic trance of Mormon thinking, you will start to see that much of the church’s motivations are to perpetuate the church and not to care about individual members. Why do you think that ensign peak has grown to over $175 billion. The biggest thing you need to look at is that the church is not doing anything with that money to find out b o m archeological sites. NOT A RED CENT
WOW! Did they compare reading historical evidence in the CES Letter to Pornography?!?!? THAT is mind manipulation. YOU ARE IN A CULT! Reading historical evidence is not porn.
This is very misleading of the views of people who have left the church. To say that the content in the ces letter is designed to, as you said in your words, “information has been presented in a twisted way to promote a false narrative” is utterly wrong AND hypocritical. Most people when they leave the church want nothing more than for the church to be true. Jeremy wrote the ces letter to the ces director as genuine questions he had. He never got a response. The letter simply explains Jeremy’s questions. To claim that as “promoting a false narrative” shows your bias. Yes, there are holes in some aspects of peoples arguments who are critical of the church. But there are arguably so many more holes in the church’s narrative. To act like the church doesn’t twist presenting church history too is just wrong. To write off the ces letter or any other argument critical to the church as “twisting the information” you still have one eye closed.
Brother, was the example that I gave not an instance in which false information was presented to try and discredit the BOM? I followed it up by literally saying that not all the things brought up in the CES are invalid!
@@thestickofjosephI don’t think it’s necessity false because if you are correct, 8 names still remain that would’ve existed in his time. Which yes is different than 17 and if that’s the case then 17 is misleading, but the argument still stands and shouldn’t be dismissed. I haven’t done that research so I have no idea. Tbh i think it’s a dumb argument to make on both sides. I just think that promoting the idea that critics are twisting the information isn’t healthy. I’m sure it happens but the church also does the same thing.
Any discussion about things where neither current party was present is so easly drawn into twisting facts to align with preconceived notions. Faith is required on both sides. Where does that leave us in our pursuit of truth? To question boldly what is before us, to be honest with ourselves and others, and to never take anything at face value
Most of the stuff in that letter are things I read in the anti-Mormon books I found in Christian book stores over 40 years ago when I was first trying to learn about the Church! This was before the Internet and I didn't know where to turn for answers, so I went to Christian book stores, because after seeing the Osmonds on TV, I knew that Mormons believe in Jesus Christ. But there was nothing but anti-Mormon stuff in these Christian book stores. I sent away for The Book of Mormon through the Osmond fan club, and finally found a copy of A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, by LeGrand Richards, in our local public library.
Presenting questions or doubts, without presenting “exculpatory” evidences that do answer the questions and doubts being presented IS misleading. JR and his followers don’t like the answers, but it doesn’t mean they the questions weren’t or aren’t being answered. Can I ask you, did JR write the document of doubts himself, or did he also compile a list of doubts from others? I’m asking sincerely. Faith requires not seeing it all or knowing it all and believing it is true. One who leaves the LDS church without having faith, is not being sincere. Mocking those of us who see things faithfully is also one of the biggest gripes I have with exmos who present the CES document of doubts as honest questions. I’ve been on the doubting end, I’ve commingled with many in the exmo community, and let me tell you they aren’t the most honest bunch. Lastly, leaving the exmo community is harder than leaving the actual LDS church. The ridicule one gets when going back to belief in the restored Gospel is INSANE. Don Bradley had hinted at this, if you’re looking for examples. Anyway, just responding to what you wrote, I’m not trying to be malicious in my manners toward you. I hope it doesn’t sound like I am.
Though it’s clear they are still believers and are in, they definitely are headed in the right direction. It doesn’t matter if it takes 5 or 10 more years to make those final transitions out of the cult mentality. (ie book of Abraham is completely false no matter how you approach it but…. Elder Holland says neither he or the other leaders can explain it away but to believe that you’ll know in the after life so I guess I’ll still believe) it takes time brothers. For me it took 12 years to leave Mormonism behind. Lots of family still in and that’s ok but 1 by 1 I’ve seen some miracles happen. Testimonies are only as strong as the emotions tied to them. Once you accept fact after fact given about the church and it’s leaders, it kind of goes away lol. No idol or lazy learners here. Worked on a stake level and served many years. Don’t regret it but am far happier not living a lie now.
Do not let moronism poison you to God. The wonders of intelligent creation around you speak of His heart. Don't let the depravity of man keep you from God. Read the Gospel of John with fresh eyes, and just take Jesus's words at face value.
@thestickofjoseph let's start with polygamy. Jacob 1-3 is completely anti-polygamy. I would argue that King Noah (polygamist) is a comparable character to Brigham Young in many ways.
@@ejs7721 what is your understanding of, "30 For if I will (command more than one wife), saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." Jacob 2:30
@thestickofjoseph for starters, I would take out your additional wording. It never implies "command more than one wife" The easiest answer is to read the whole chapters in context. The misconception is that we have conflated "raising up a righteous seed" with polygamy, but that is a false premise. Look up raising up a righteous seed or branch. Vs 25, right before this, gives us an explanation and it's saying that the Lord will take the righteous out from among the wicked. Like he did with Lehi to "raise up a righteous seed/branch". "Otherwise" (if He doesn't do that) then hearken unto these things, which is "one wife and no concubines"
