Religion and War in Ancient Greece and Rome 

What amazes me - As far as I can tell, he does the whole thing in one take. I don’t see the scene cut or the camera shift or anything.

"Food that walks itself" Gold

One needs sleep. But one also needs to see Lloyd wrestling imaginary goats to death and impersonating unimpressed Chicken.

We need a supercut of all the lindybeige miming scenes.

8:06 In case anyone missed this GENIUS bit of mime- the Sphagia claps his hands and the blood from them splashes over him. Amazing commitment in Lloyd's acting.

If the sacrifice is asking "is now a good time to fight" rather than "will I win", it makes sense. The gods can say "Honestly their army is just better than yours, you're pretty much sure to lose, but if you *were* going to attack, now would give you the best chance".

My oracle, Jotuba Notificata, told me that Lindybeige uploaded.

"And yet, when the lesbians... Don't! You know exactly what I meant." LOL This is why I love your channel, very informative with just the right amount of humor.

Leader 1: *Makes a sacrifice* God 1: "Don't worry, I got your back!" Leader 1: *Sends troops into battle* Leader 2: *Makes a sacrifice* God 2: "No problem, I'll take care of that!" Leader 2: *Sends troops into battle* God 1: "What did you just say!?" God 2: "Oh, you heard me!" God 1: "Wanna go!?" God 2: "Come at me!" Bystander god: "Bitch fight!" And that's where thunder comes from.

You have to admit a polytheist never says "how can the same God who does x also does y?"

Beautifully Monty Python-ed!!! "...But the fourth one stayed up!"

according to the goat I just slaughtered, this is the first of a long, long unbroken chain of weekly Lindybeige uploads!

Lloyd is the uncle I've always wanted.

Ah, the lack of a spear. The eternal problem of the Lesbian.

Ten minutes later and I'm still smiling at the Lindybeige demonstration of the sound oracles make.

It's only natural that some oracles made good predictions... Delphi must've been like a big intelligence agency. Lots of people from the known world traveled there, and the local priests probably asked them about some news of their part of the world, maybe through subterfuge. The result is a heterogeneous load of information, unavailable to most poleis or kings.

Beware the reductionist fallacy. Just because people may have multiple, even contradictory motivations, does not necessarily mean that "this" is the "real" motivation. Doing so may say more about your motivations, than the people you are studying. In the same way, just because some eras are less religious than other eras, does not necessarily mean that all eras are irreligious.

“You can’t cancel Easter!”- Ha 2020 proves another point wrong

It's perhaps a side point, but I wonder if 'religion' even meant the same thing then as it does now. The word derives, I think, from a Latin word meaning 'binding', referring to the practice of binding oneself to a particular deity. This works very well in a monotheistic world where different faiths compete for 'being the right one', but was perhaps less convenient in a polytheistic world where people would pray to different gods for different things (if you were travelling to Athens by boat, you might ask Zeus to give you good weather on the way to the harbour, then to Poseidon to make the sea relatively calm, and then finally to Athena to make sure you didn't get in trouble in her city), so I wonder if, actually, relatively few people (at least compared to today) were 'religious' in the sense of selecting a particular god over other particular gods (I suppose there were cults who prioritised one deity over all others, but their beliefs and practices probably didn't reflect those of 'ordinary' people). Devotees of Zeus could meet with devotees of Dionysus and they wouldn't have to disagree on points of theology (because both their gods existed), whereas a Christian and a Muslim today can't both be right. If you've made it this far, dear reader, then thank you for excusing my textwall as well as my copious use of brackets.

13:26 I still cant stop laughing... "EEK THE SPARTANS!" Easily best thing in a long time Lloyd!

I dont know, but watching him murder the imaginary goat made feel rather unconfortable, like it was actually alive. You sir are a great actor!

Lindybeige, I really enjoy your videos. They are both informative and entertaining.They are rather like Monty Python doing a actual historical report . Do keep up the good work.

Well, there's the fact that ancient Greek states spent significant amounts of economical resources on religion. Temples and sacrifices and clergies aren't cheap. Something that would have been considered a total waste of resources if the great majority of people didn't really believe, or were generally "meh" about it. That, in democracies where the government wasting those resources would have been accountable to a citizenry whose taxes pay for it all. A few atheist politicians may have supported religion simply because of its usefulness for maintaining social order, but for that to work would anyway require a critical mass of actual true believers. So yeah, while textual primary sources make it clear that the idea of atheism was known and had significant adherence among the intellectual classes, that doesn't exclude the (imo, likely) possibility that true belief was the norm among the wider populace. That anecdote about the general who re-did the augurs five times to get the result he wanted suggests that the general may have been an atheist, but that his troops might not have been so, since he had to play along and get the result he wanted. It also suggests the augurs were true believers, otherwise they would have just conspired with the general to produce the result he wanted to begin with.

i love how well lloyd edited in the special effects :0 you could see the blood spraying EVERYWHERE

I'm maori, love your channel could you maybe make a video about the maori, our war tactics were pretty cool

I am Greek, and yes, i died a little bit inside when i heard you say those words :)

I know it’s been years since you’ve posted this video. You’re creating quality history on the internet and your brain is amazing! You’re the most interesting/entertaining person I’ve watched lately. Thank you for your integrity and longing for purity in history and humanity.

"Panic, Darkness, and Cliffs" is the name of my Amon Amarth cover band.

You're the reason I study history, thank you. You're a true inspiration

"...the gods favored *swirl* ME."

Sounds like the Spartans were the equivalent of the lawyers who only take certain cases to keep up their prosecution percentage.

Its 1 am,the hell are you thinking Lindybeige?

Thumbs up because you kept the mid-video sponsor spiel far more concise than the usual third of the video it normally eats up.

34:37 "Oh! That's a good sacrifice!" Lmao sometimes the way he expresses the speculated thoughts of ancient people is just delightfully hilarious.

"All this will be yours!" "What, the Carthaginians?"

I think you are confusing following the religious practises with actually believing in religion. I believe that eating right and exercise will make me feel good and live longer. I still eat pizza and take the elevator every chance I get.

Yes, grow that Zeus/Jupiter beard.

Your delivery of the Monty Python was lovely and welcome!

You look like Graham Chapman come back to us, and your commentary is very amusing to me. Good stuff.

*Souvlaki* _VS_ *Spaghetti*

whenever i watch any youtube videos over 30 minutes i always get bored but this channel is the only one that doesn't bore me. love the videos here

Really loved the wonderful rendition of the sacrifices. The pathos, the details... i almost cried.

9:40 needs to be a gif.

Lindy, the original Brexiter. Seriously though, props my man; props.

I didn't need audible until now but when I did I used your free trial because you're awesome. Generally too skint to give anything back but now I had the chance.. enjoy!

But the fourth one stayed up 👌🏻

Hey Lloyd, always enjoy your stuff. I wanted to make a general comment about piety in my experience. I am from the southern United States I was raised in family of Southern Baptists and went to church at least twice a week until I got out of school. I used to have pretty strong feelings about faith, most of that wore off during a deployment to Iraq, but I do have many family members and friends who are very religious. I only mean to say that in my opinion genuine belief exists and by extension did exist in history. Does everyone in a religious society believe equally, if at all? Likely no. Do leaders exploit the beliefs of the people? Obviously yes. I just don't think it's fair to paint all people of today or yesterday in your own biased pallette that's all.

People are very good at rationalizing, often by shifting the importance of our supposed principles in service of how we're feeling at the moment. So while it may be correct to say that the ancient Greeks weren't super pious, I don't think it's right to say that someone is "not religious" for occasionally ignoring the omens any more than it's right to say that someone "doesn't work out" because they occasionally skip leg day.

I have watched the entire video, trust me.

Love that Swamp Castle reference. :D

Mr. Beige, this Greek pantheon is a syncretistic creation of the early classical period. Different cities had different cults, for the most part. It's helpful to keep that in mind.

As 20th century British historian Alan John Percival Taylor said; All war is economic, regardless of the reason(s) stated for a way, the underlying reason(s) is always economic (No quotes because those aren't the exact words, but they're close enough to give you the idea).

Your videos are incredible and quite brilliant. Thanks for imparting such knowledge and opening up wonderful discussions with us. Cheers mate! :)

Thanks Lindy, I appreciate a good Monty Python reference.

A Classic paean (greek παιανας) is a repeating L. the first syllabe of the word ελευμαι meaning "I am coming". Chanting it progressively faster as the phalanx moved faster towards the enemy.

5:45 Lloyd wrestling with his demons.

The goat sacrifice part was awesome hahahahahahaha Great video, Lindy =]

Your impression of the Oracle of Delphi is hilarious.

This man makes history lessons great.

Lindy always looks like he just got done sacrificing a goat and got cleaned up, but forgot to brush is hair.

the Romans were renowned for their piety. They believed strongly in their gods and their rites

I can only speak on a personal level, but for a long time I was definitely one of those rituals only Christians that didn't believe. I just didn't want to say that I was an atheist because I felt my family and my society expected me to be a Christian, and saying that I didn't believe openly would be frowned upon. So I definitely felt that way.

Listening to you is like reading a good book , and there aren't many good books

This was fascinating. Thank you.

"Panic, darkness, and cliffs are a _rrreally_ bad combination."

"Its a bit like one of those EU referendums" You never were so right. I chuckled.

You should do a video on how Norse ideological beliefs affected the Vikings in Battle

Honestly, the best of your videos I've seen. And, deffinetly my favorite. I was one of those non subscribers, just happy to watch your vids whenever thy showed up in my feed. But, this video is the reason im subscribing to you. I hope you see this comment. Thanks for the great content.

You have a secular bias, typical for an educated Westerner. People really do believe and act upon their faith.

Oh my goodness, this was AMAZING! Watching Lloyd act out slaughtering a goat, multiple times! Right down to the blood everywhere... And then the hen impression!! If this video consisted of noting but those few impressions, it would still have been worth watching. Needless to say, the ACTUAL video (complete with the informative bits) is EXTREMELY GOOD. Watch it.

I wish that the school lectures was this great!

It's always enjoyable to watch your videos!Keep it up!

I feel like you’re being somewhat overly cynical. There’s certainly “cultural Christians”, but there’s also true faith. I do think it’s less common, though.

going into my 3rd month off work due to the virus and re watching all lindys longer videos . make a freeking podcast man !!!!

People say that delphi was located under a natural gas saurce and people there were high all the time and gave crazy answers

I did indeed die a little bit inside.

I'm glad to see Lindy channel finally grow in numbers :)

28:15 That's me each time I try to explain to my friends the battle of Thermophylae

21:34 You'll thank me later :)

What lindybeige was getting at for those who don't know about the battle of Marathon: the next battle was Thermopylae, and the "renegotiation" angered the gods.

I have seen this video 3 or 5 times but Lloyds miming sacrifice gets me every time :D

Nobody's gonna mention the amazing Monty Python reference at 23:35?

26:17 Theodoret wrote it down: "When news came of his [Julian the Apostate's] death, and the reign of iniquity was succeeded by one of piety, the shrine was opened, and within was found a proof of the late emperor’s manliness, wisdom, and piety. For there was seen a woman hung up on high by the hairs of her head, and with her hands outstretched. The villain had cut open her belly, and so I suppose learnt from her liver his victory over the Persians."

As far as both armies getting favorable oracles and one of them invariably loosing, one must remember that divination was a techne, an art, and was subject to misinterpretation. It was not assumed that the manteis were always right and there are instances of generals making the sacrifices and giving their own interpretations. This goes for sanctuaries too. As for Leonidas, he did go to Thermopylae, but he did so after consulting the oracle and being told that a spartan king had to die for Sparta to survive. Whether this was added after the battle is anyone's guess, but we must be careful not to bring our own 21st century way of thinking into theirs. The 7000 other troops at the battle were not Spartans. Also, whereas there are undoubtedly many instances that could make a modern man smirk at what he might think was hypocrisy (many of which were in this video) there are even more instances of piety that cannot be so easily explained (arginusae was one of them). The actions of Agisfor example (he turned back numerous times instead of helping his allies), during the Peloponnesian War almost brought the whole of Sparta's allies to rebel against her because they though them inactive. This was a series of decisions that brought nothing but trouble to Sparta, and almost lost her the war, and yet she persisted. Another instance was at Platea, where Pausanias refused to order an attack even as his men were massacred by arrows because he was waiting to get positive sacrifices (this incident too has been interpreted by some as a tactical choice rather than a religious one, but again this could just be us wishing to see ourselves in the ancients) Finally we must remember that the Greeks thought of the gods as little more than immortal supermen, in the sense that you can indeed talk to them and bargain, and perhaps even trick them. Being inconstant in a sacrifice, or having loads at the same time, may seem strange to us who are used to monotheistic religions where the Word is the truth and nothing must/can deviate from it (whether we are atheists or not we come from the same background of experience in that regard). From a 21st century point of view this religion does seem hypocritical, but our point of view really doesn't matter.

24:35 Vietnam flashback? XD

With a monotheist god, if something goes wrong it's the devil's work, or god's Mysterious Ways™. Never underestimate delusional people's capability to find ways to justify bullshit.

Regarding his point at the end, one could just as easily say that they're not convinced that any areligious person they've ever met really believes what they say. It's a two-way street

It reminds me of a movie quote. In the middle of a large argument a wizard hold a bag above his head and says “ I will consult the bones!” Everyone say awhhhh. He spills the bones from the bag on to cloth on the floor and he and the guy who cares bend over and look at the bones. The wizard calmly says “ the bones tell me nothing” He just asks some simple questions. The bones buys him time and back up his decision when it’s really his wisdom that he leads with. Sounds like the Movie Willow came close to the truth.

EU referendums part with Brexit context xd

Lloyd, I liked your analysis of the texts, and particularly Herodotus' story of Croesus' experiment, which I hadn't heard before. My criticism is that you don't address the evolution of belief over the course of time. The Greco-Roman period was about 1000 years long after all, and Socrates was separated from Augustus by 400 years. Like us, their traditional beliefs were grounded in a long dark ages that their society grew out of. Quite possibly in the early days, say First Persian War era, the Greeks were quite religious and both aristocrat and commoner believed in the auguries, etc, like our culture believed in Christ in the time of Charles V. As society evolved, wealth advanced, and literacy spread, so too did skepticism, to the point where Plato was able to argue that the old stories should have no place at all in his revolutionary, rationalistic new society. Also, what of the cult of the Emperor? Hundreds of years after Plato, the Roman leadership saw use in manipulating traditional religion for political purposes. This speaks to two things: first that the Roman leadership seemed to disbelieve in the immutability or fundamental significance of their traditional religion. But second, is speaks of the lingering power of the traditional religion, or otherwise it wouldn't have been a tool of any significant use. So perhaps skepticism (or rationalism) was widespread within the literate upper classes---at least to the point where they could crassly manipulate the religion---but maybe the religion had deep purchase on a great deal of the populace. Finally, what about different groups in the ancient world? The Jews saw a fantastic insult in Caligula walking into the Holy of Holies. Also, by the Pyrrhic wars, the Roman and Greek mentalities seemed very different: the rationalistic Greeks seemed a lot different from the Romans, who were extremely practical but also (perhaps paradoxically) very superstitious.

anyone else notice he was doing a Monty Python bit around 23 minutes in? love it.

8:11 - Lindy predicts Brexit

Bravo Mr. Lindybeige. Great performance. You make the ancient world come alive in a most interesting and entertaining fashion. A question though. On the wall behind you, two items seem to be out of place among the artistic collection on the wall. The pencil and the spectacles. Considering your great attention to detail I must assume the are not haphazardly placed there. What is the significance of these two seemingly unrelated things?

Like the stealth Monty Python reference! But that begs the question, how many have I missed in your other videos?

i dont think that is an accurate interpretation of ancient greek mysticism

The ancients didn't necessarily make the religious/secular distinction that is common in the modern world. They also didn't make the gods a source or morality until late antiquity.

From what I heard, this one guy had a dream and was told to paint a shield a certain way. But he ended up winning this really important battle, so he changed religions. Then he told everyone to change as well. Points if you know who I am talking about.

You know, I think you would find a good amount of interest in the work of Dr Jordan B Peterson regarding mythology from a psychoanalytic perspective. Perhaps I could recommend his Maps of Meaning lectures as posted here on RU-vid, under his channel (Jordan B Peterson), though he has a vast amount of work available all around RU-vid, just search his name and start digging!

I think it's possible that the process of interpreting sufficiently vague predictions actually meant you thought through whatever situation you were trying to find the outcome to and thus, by getting you to use your own knowledge, the oracle was actually decently accurate.

Going by the facial expressions and body language, I'd say Lindybeige would make a wonderful seer. "Yes Legatus, that's what I think we should do"