"Religion Makes Society Better"...Until We Start Listing Facts | Forrest Valkai & Gordon Walker 

"Religion Makes Society Better" - except it's the number one thing that has held us back of all time

Rabbits have more offspring than humans, therefore god is a rabbit.

I went to school when we were forced to say the lords prayer. I watched some children allowed to leave and I asked to go with them. Immediately sent to the principals office. After some illegal talk with me I still said that I wanted to leave with the others. My Mom was called into the school and after the principal put on what he thought was a great speech about about how great religion is my Mom looked at him and said “if my son wants to leave he leaves.” The principal was floored and stuttered for several minutes before he relented. This all happened in a public school. I can’t thank my Mom enough for not being religious.

I went to a fairly progressive Catholic School for 12 years. To say that religion is not forced upon students is absurd and just one more example of the brazen dishonesty that marks the very essence of Christianity.

Why is it that the best countries to live in are those with the lowest religious influence?

More humans have been traumatized, tortured, trivialized, terrorized, terminated, brutalized, minimized, murdered, maimed, marginalized, & mistreated in the name of one deity or another than have been over land, political power, & wealth combined. Ain't that "righteous"? Z

Man, I went to Catholic school. The only reason we were “ahead” of public school was due to the fact that there were waaaaay less of us to teach, and we were better funded (due to being an “elite” academy, tuition was high, and lots of wealthy families sent their sons to the school I went to). It had nothing to do with religion. All to do with funding and student to teacher ratio.

Andrew responded to multiple questions with "wow." He clearly has never given any of this any serious thought or looked into any of the facts surrounding it. It's all about what FEELS true, not what IS true.

At my public high school, our bio teacher refused to teach the modules on evolution because she "didn't believe in it" So we didn't learn it!

Those native kids in Canada might not agree with that claim.

Zero chance Andrew integrates this conversation into his beliefs.

If this caller has reproduced, it would defeat his argument that reproduction is more advantageous to society

“Emotional health “ being taught on Catholic schools!? 😂😂😂

So the caller is basically implying this: “Hey guys! If we all have a bunch of kids and force them to become Catholics, then they in turn will do the same to the next generation, and then Catholicism will be true by means of popularity!” I nearly gave myself a concussion from that facepalm of an argument.

The most outspoken atheists I know came from religious families. Seems like the religious are the greatest breeders of atheist. good job 👏

In Sweden private religious schools are the ones that produce the absolute worst results, hands down. Second to last are other private schools and on the very top are the public schools. They all get the same funding but religious schools funnel it into the religious organisation and other private schools maximise profit by minimising resources.

The ONLY reason any religion becomes "progressive" is through secular reasoning

"Yo, my name's Andrew and I've never actually thought about anything before! WOO!" 24:29

The key issue with his argument is religion isn't passed down via genes

Andrew hears an argument and then does no further research before calling in and using it, always resulting in him being completely embarrassed.

One thing I will say that sent me into a tailspin for the rest of my life is in first fucking grade, 5, maybe 6 years old, I remember coming home crying my eyes out one day because my teacher had told me that I was not a good person if I didn't go to church. I did not know what to do with that information at that time, but I blame her for the theological roller coaster I went on, without even knowing it, and was the foundation of the atheist that I am today.

What does a religious component do for the child that a secular component does not? Should have been the question.

Andrew calls in a lot and every one of his arguments is just easily destroyed by every host. Forest literally proved every point Andrew made wrong with ease.

“Because it didn’t fit into the fuckin’ pan” made me laugh really loud 😂

I gotta say, these are the callers I like, he isn't getting angry, and seems receptive to rethinking ideas when presented evidence and logic, and even admitted when his logic was flawed.

Religion makes a person so dishonest 😮

As someone concerned with human rights and ecological sustainability, the question is HOW does religiosity produce more children? Usually at the expense of the woman's health by not allowing her to recover her body and hormonal balance before breeding her again. It is all justified with misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate religious dogma about women. Usually by having her look after SEVERAL still dependent children without any birth spacing for proper early childhood development. Not even our PRIMATE COUSINS do this. All large-brained, intelligent, socially cooperative mammals space their births out at least 4 to 5 years and have one infant at a time. WHY? As MIT and Danish universities have revealed, birth spacing is key to giving each infant the exclusive maternal and physical contact they need for proper cognitive and emotional development. Poor birth spacing leads to more neglect of the critical emotional needs of children, babies cry longer and harder to get attention because a mother is distracted by having other dependents young to look after. It leads to more sibling rivalry. It leads to higher incidents of the dreaded "trouble second-born" child. It leads to more incidents of personality and behavioral disorders. You will see some WILD things in nature, but among mammals of the highest intelligence particularly our cousins, a mother scrambling to take care of several all-dependent young is the MOST UNNATURAL THING EVER. You will faster find two males or two females enjoying sexual interaction than that, in the wild. This is especially true among APEX predators who require BILLIONS of other lifeforms in the biosphere for their survival. They do not need to exist in numbers larger than their ecosystem can support while replenishing its own numbers. Our population growth has caused species to go extinct, which is a signal to any ecologist that we have long surpassed ecologically sustainable numbers. Let us not pretend the reproductive setting humanity was put on is ORGANIC to our species. It is an imperial and misogynistic construct to provide abundant cheap human labor and cannon fodder so that a few sociopaths, psychopaths, and narcissists at the TOP can satisfy their bottomless ego.

They forgot to ask him if he's ever heard of a president or politician ending a big speech without saying "God Bless America" or if he can picture a candidate winning an election while being an atheist and not ending their speeches like that.

I went to Catholic school for 15 years and will never fully recover.

The traditional Jewish practice of running water over your hands before a meal is basically pointless unless you actually wash your hands properly - you know, in the same way we learned how to wash our hands during COVID

Victory in Europe Day (V-E Day) was May 8, 1945. The vatican apologized "for failing to take more decisive action" during WWII on March 17, 1998. That's 52 years, 10 months, 9 days after V-E Day.

In the late 80's, Christianity Today published an article about Christian Reconstructionism, the "Christian Nationalism" of its day and the political mentors of Falwell's Religious Right (despite disagreeing on theology: premillennialism versus postmillennialism). Its title was something like "Democracy as Heresy." The article quoted one reconstructionist as denouncing democracy and the idea of human rights as having been invented by Satan. Another urged his followers to demand their own religious rights "so that we can then take their religious rights away from them." Clearly, we cannot expect activist Christians to even consider respecting human rights.

In Japan’s business environment handing a business card with one hand is considered rude (as opposed to handing it with both hands). That’s what Forrest is talking about, in case anyone was wondering which country he was referring to.

Tell me you have never been hit by a nun with a ruler without saying "I have never been hit by a nun with a ruler".

Andrew's arguments get shot down literally every time he calls in, but he persists in coming back to float another ridiculous idea again and again. I have a feeling he just likes to hear himself talk. I pity his wife and kids.

"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool." "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire

It almost funny listening to "Andrew" repeatedly change his story after Forrest stomps on every point he brings up and proves he's wrong. He's playing every christians favorite game...keep moving the goal posts.

Being able to respond to that without just telling them they're the dumbest piece of shit ever to walk the face of the earth totally left me in awe. I might be able to manage it in text but in person I'd have flipped out. You are awesome peeps.

While I disagree with him on just about everything, he said. Props to the caller for his honesty and openness. So much nicer when they don’t call in with a script.

Forest, you are so lucky not to have had religious ideas drilled into your mind when you were growing up. Coming out of that fully for me took 12 years. It was such an emotional roller-coaster. Psychologists talk about stages of grief. It felt like that. There was a lot of confusion, frustration, bargaining, anger, disillusionment, depression, more bargaining, anger again, depression, and then, gradually, mental and emotional freedom made their way into the game. But, wow, it was incredibly difficult. My brothers strongly disapprove of my atheism, and my dad, who is pastor, cut me out of his life completely- They see me as weirdo for not believing. But deconversion, albeit painful, was still worth it in the end. So religion for me has not been beneficial. It brought about a lot of pain and it separated me from my family. But it introduced me to reality. And I must say I was relieved as I kept thinking what the heck I'd be doing in heaven forever anyway. That sounded like too much work. I like my life, but I wanna be done with it at some point. 😂

I commend these two for the amount of patience they have when talking to someone like this... I've had to deal with people like Andrew my entire upbringing and it can get exhausting.

Also, the fact that humans in the past had multiple children was for a survival rate. We don’t really have to go back that far either, my grandmother was pregnant 11 times and bore 8 children which only 6 survived past infancy. If you go back a few generations before that, there was a very high probability that only 3-4 children would have survived. This was mostly due to the complications of pregnancy, the child bearing process and disease. Most species do not have multiple offspring due to repopulation or advancing evolution, but a simple survival mechanism.

I love listening to intelligent and logical people discuss real issues. I'm glad I found this channel.

(The world is currently engaged in multiple confrontations with one actually having to do with religion) Theists: religion makes our society better!

I believe in a secular society is best, for sure. 👍

Having a lot of babies is not an advantageous evolutionary trait. Overproduction of offspring has ended soooooo many species.

Andrew doesn't want to use the word force but what else do you want to call hell?

There’s also a correlation between higher iq and having fewer children.

I went to a private Catholic School from Kindergarten to 10th grade and a public school to finish High School. I definitely felt the impact of larger class sizes in the public school environment as I didn’t receive the same level of support from the teachers because there were just too many students to provide higher levels of assistance to all of us. The quality of the educational materials was also better in private school. I will say the Catholic School I went to was also fairly “progressive” in that they taught us evolution starting in middle school and even the Nuns that were teaching, communicated Genesis as being a story, not science. Though the priests still couldn’t help answer the foundational questions I had on the problem of evil, the issue of Catholicism being spread through violence, as well as biblical contradictions. Usually they would just say “God works in mysterious ways, my son”. I now affirm that Catholic School is the reason I am an atheist. 😂

A common thread I've seen in religion is that it makes it much easier to do bad things to a selected group of people. You can point to a demographic, claim that your deity says they're wrong and therefore it's ok to treat them like crap. Or it's ok to not help them in times of need. Or it's ok for them to die because they upset your god. This can and has happened in secular cases, but the people in charge have much more convincing to do. They can't hand wave and say their actions are a punishment from a god. And they'll have to deal with a pushback from those who disagree. I can't recall a time when a religion called its god out on something they disagreed with.

I actually appreciate that Andrew was answering almost all of the questions honestly instead of just ducking and dodging, you don't see that often from theists.

In 1992 the Catholic church apologized for putting Galileo under house arrest for his scientific claims. That was over 350 years!!! How much did that hold us back as a society!? And this is just the tip of the iceburg. But I do have hope for this caller.

Well, that’s pretty amazing. Usually when call-in people run up against evidence that might shake up their religious beliefs, they double down and start making shit up. Andrew for the most part, did not do that. Hearing his views reflected back with a critical take got him thinking. So, if he goes back to the drawing board now, he will do it knowing some of the holes in his premises. Very productive talk.

Fact 1. In the 1930s Spain's education system was run entirely by the Catholic church. Fact 2. The country with the lowest educational standard in all of Europe in the 1930's was Spain.

I think it's great that Andrew was able to think about it and actually have a discussion.

At my grandson's public school, there's a sign right outside the office door stating, "God is good!" There's also a prayer tent at the entrance to the county (actually parish,) court. I've reported them both to the FFRF. (Welcome to America's deep south.)

It’s like he’s never had his beliefs challenged before. He keeps pausing for a long time and repeats the questions to himself.

ForrestFire❤

I really like this call. Andrew was very respectful, and listened to both hosts. I honestly hope he went back through this call and critically thought through it all, because Andrew seems like the kind of Chad person who would. You rock Andrew.

I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition

_"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false & by the rulers as useful."_ [Seneca]

So if Hindu students are further ahead in school than Catholic students, Hinduism must be true.

I do appreciate that there were moments where Andrew actually seemed to consider the arguments.

This guy is A1 yapper. Fluent in yappenese

Worth watching, for the ham story alone.

Gads, I love how well Forrest expresses himself, with just the right vocabulary and grammar. For me it's like listening to music. Everything is comes out just right. So satisfying. I can only wish I could do that.

Well put... Thank you

Andrew is the new Amanuel😵‍💫

Catholic schools can choose their students and public schools have to teach all students within their district.

16:26 "Double digit churches within walking distance" -- In my Canadian home town there were three churches and one school, and now the school has been taken over by a church. I can only imagine how ridiculously religious American towns and cities are.

In the 1800s, we went from horses & farms to electricity & engines. It was exponential technological progress because we started to embrace science

I fail to see how religion is in any way important to social and emotional learning. If anything it holds them back by shackling their thinking and teaching them to other those not in their religion.

I grew up Catholic and realized it was BS early on. I’ve experienced conversations like this and it was extremely painful. Good job guys on trying to get this guy to think logically. I think the caller will eventually figure it out.

He says “I understand” but I’m not entirely sure that he does understand he just says that so the conversation can keep going.

Hey its the Fungi guy! Nice to see you here man!

I can say that Gordon is a very well-educated and quite intelligent person. I would like to see Gorgon more. Someone with new ideas and life view.

I feel bad for Americans.

Brilliantly discussed and courteously argued, well done, much respect.

Aye shout out to the caller for listening to the hosts.

Ándrew: "We have inherent Rights,.. God has given us those Rights and they cant be taken away!" And.. what exactly does this supposed God-Thingy do when someone violates those supposed "..Rights.."? Nothing! Looks like in Fact, they do can be taken away when no one is protecting them. Actual Rights only work when 1) someone is granting them.... AND... 2) someone is protecting those Rights .. so they dont get violated and when they do get violated that there will be punishment for those who did (in the hope it will make People not want to violate them again).

Tiger in the Savannah? Come on, Forrest!! Okay, that's my only complaint.

Very good reaction by Forrest!!

From Sweden here. Love how you guys argument. You guys are most welcome here if you want.

How many idiots does it take to get to the moon? Quality over quantity

The Nordic countries have far better metrics in happiness, education, health, etc. it’s a very long list and they are extremely secular. So, I’m ready for Andrew to be an Atheist now.

This one is definitely going in my favorites folder! So many points in the first half I have somehow yet to hear in other videos and I shared it with others - my younger sister and I both struggle with our upbringing which had an emphasis on religion (Catholicism).

Andrew should take a walk round a European 17th century graveyard. People had many children but child mortality was considerably higher then. Modern medicine and public health initiatives (science) have reduced child mortality drastically.

If you beleive hell is real, then it’s incredibly immoral to have kids in the first place. For god to tell people to have lots of kids even though he knows he’s throwing most of them into hell means he’s a monster

I believe 50%+ of all the worlds problems can be traced back to religion

Thanks!

I was forcibly steeped in christian fundamentalism for 10+ years in school and church nearly 7 days a week then more of it at home. How could I escape even if I had wanted to at age 6-16?

Andrew is devolving into a sad troll. Throws something new at the wall each week, hoping somewhere something might stick and make his life make sense.

Andrew has called the line time and time and time again just to get his ass handed to him every single time. He is not a critical thinker. He is ridiculous beyond words. He is an example of what's wrong with religion and indoctrination.

I went to catholic school through the 3rd grade. The only significant thing I remember is being told to not ask so many questions. !!! SAY WHAT ???

I love the moments of crickets in between trying to answer these beautiful questions that this panel is asking

At 22:11) - this is where the guy’s brain shortcircuits 🤣🤣🤣 B-d-zzzzzzz-tt-zzzt

Andrew is just braindead sad to say. It’s like no matter how many arguments of his you demolish he will refuse to concede he’s wrong. Its crazy.

The problem with these conversations is that "religion" is often restricted to Abrahamic religions. But, I don't hold to this line of thinking. When we are talking about religion, we are essentially talking about people with social power influencing how other people believe and how other people behave. This definition of religion is ESSENTIAL to human society. Human populations would be dysfunctional without paradigms that informed their beliefs and behaviors in a manner that promotes group cohesion.

This was a really good, honest discussion! I'm impressed. I'm an athiest myself, but that caller was willing to sit quietly and listen. He came out with some counterpoints, and even if we think they were ridiculous, he did so in a respectful and honest way, and he also asked questions which many religious people aren't willing to do (mostly because they know they won't like the answers. Lol). Religion will always be a thing, but if we can all learn to have discussions honestly and respectfully this world would be a much better place.

A tiger on the savannah ...