Responding to the Top Biblical Arguments for Same-Sex Marriage (ft. Preston Sprinkle) 

I owe Preston a sincere apology for a condemning comment I made in the pre-stream post before this discussion. I jumped to conclusions and I was being a pharisee. I am sorry.

This was a very valuable conversation, thank you for your humility and honesty as you sought to approach the scriptures fairly.

Appreciate Preston relooking at “one flesh” vs “flesh”. Word studies done poorly can lead people into looking at all the possibilities a greek or hebrew word can mean and grasp at something without letting the context of the passage determine it.

On the “one flesh” issue, an important point that I didn’t hear mentioned is that the capacity for reproduction resides only in heterosexual union. For this reason, some Catholic thinkers speak of “the human reproductive organism” as a composite being with a power/capacity that neither of its “constituents” have in themselves. To me, this idea of a new organic unity grounded in heterosexual union is the most compelling way of understanding “one flesh.”

We so appreciate the way you engage and have conversations. You embody grace and truth in the way you engage all of your guests.

Preston. From one Bible scholar named Sprinkle to another, greetings. Occasionally I've been asked if we are related. I suspect so since Sprinkle is such a rare last name, but the link must be a number of generations back. My area is OT. I have also written briefly on this topic of homosexuality and the Pentateuch for IVP's Dictionary of the Pentateuch s.v., "Sexuality, sexual ethics." Now I can put a face to the name I've run across over the years. Thanks for the interesting discussion. -- Joe Sprinkle

The problem is sin. What pleases our Creator is what is important

I'm trying to think of a sin that we tend to discuss so delicately, so gingerly. But God refers to it as an abomination. There's only one sin I know of

This was a fascinating conversation! I’ve done a little research on my own of this issue and kind of gave up because it seemed too complicated. This made it a lot more clear. Thank you for your kind and thoughtful insights on this.

Really, really helpful conversation, thank you 😊

This was really good. I think what is most important is that we need to change the conversation. While Biblically it is talking about an immoral action and passion, our current society is very much focused on identity. We need to discuss how important it is that our identity is tied to Christ and not to our sexual desires. It would be horrible to always be associated with just my sexual desires. I love my husband and our alone time but I can't imagine that being all that I am. Yet, our society has decided to break people into these categories in which that is the most important factor. It is so odd to me. The pride, the celebration, and the demands...I just can't get my mind around it, still. We need to remind people that our hope is in Christ, our identity becomes Christ, and that sex is only a small portion of our lives. I am not sure why it is so important to us, the way that it is. I guess it has to do with the spiritual bond that comes from the action and the passion. Which leads to even more reason to not let it be an identity.

One thing that bothers me- whenever they talk about SSA folks, they always make it sound sexual. As if all SSA folks wanna do is have sex with one another. SSA people are human. Most, and many, want the same thing straight people do. Commitment, companionship, someone to hold hands with after a dinner out: someone who loves you for rich or poor, sick or well, someone more than a friend, but not necessarily someone to simply have sex with. There is SOOO much more to loving someone than just wanting to sleep with them. When couples get to a certain age in life, sex can almost be impossible, but what’s left are all the beautiful things I listed above. It’s almost as if these guys are using this verbiage to persuade others of their point. Sure, you’re friends with Christopher yuan and others that may have a similar story. But there are SOOO many others who share a different story and experience to this topic. I respect both men immensely, but wish they wouldn’t try so hard to be salesman.

QUESTION: Why do we identify those that experience same sex attraction by their sin struggle? Aren’t we actually affirming them as that when we call them “gay.” We don’t do that with other sin struggles. For instance, I struggle with gluttony. You can take one look at me and know that is my (one of my) sin struggle. I have struggled my entire life but I can’t imagine anyone referring to me as a glutton.

I love Preston's podcast. I appreciate the time he takes to study God's word to find the truth and present it in a compassionate grace filled manner.

Very thought-provoking and helpful, thanks. As much thought and study into the Sabbath so frequently mentioned would be welcome too.

Spot on! Good definitions. You touched on the key issue of what is marriage.

Was hopeful for a more engaging talk., felt hard to follow and zoned out on such impactful topic . I’ll look out for Q&A 🎉

QUESTION: when talking about the Sabbath hermeneutic, my first thought was that Jesus wasn’t actually telling Jews they could break the Sabbath. My understanding is that he was correcting the misunderstanding and misuse of God’s Sabbath command and the intentions behind it. And I suppose one could say the same thing about the sexuality commands, but that just brings us back to the other affirming arguments What are your thoughts on this?

Q: Megan DeFranza has some theological push back in the book “Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church”. she brings up a good point in one of her debates, that maybe Genesis is just the beginning of the story, and we were never intended to go back to Eden on this side of Heaven. If Eden was the ideal, then everybody would get married. However, from reading Matthew 19, we know that’s not the case. Maybe Genesis is just the beginning, but doesn’t have to be the end of the story. Also, Jesus’s mention of Eunuchs in Matthew 19 also brings up some good debates. In addition, imagine if these two men never had their wives, never had their children, never had the idea of grand children, and had to live a life without a spouse or children… imagine the heartache that would bring? When men say, I couldn’t imagine my life without my spouse, this is what gay people have to do on a daily basis. I realize this isn’t a theological push back, but I do know that Jesus knows the pain of all gay and lesbian believers who want so badly to marry, but are trying to hold on to scripture. Lastly, In reading the texts, one could easily see that the kind of same sex sex that Paul was seeing was full of idolatry and power. As many books that make reference to Paul seeing same-sex mutual unions, there are many more to affirm that what Paul was seeing may have been mutual between two men of the same status and age, but they were doing it in the form of idolatry. Hence the bible reference “Penalty for their error”. Both men willingly engaged in same sex sex and it was very common for them to do this in the form of idol worship. One could debate this either way.

I think abstinence should also be included in the discussion, relating to not sinning. If people burn in desires outside God’s design, they don’t have to have sex. Feeding fleshy desire makes the flesh want more, kinda like simple carbs can make you crave and overeat.

My question would be: if you found out what you believe on this issue is not true, would you like to know? And once you find out that your view is wrong, how will you approach all the people who have sought you out to affirm/excuse their sin?

This was so helpful. I appreciate the careful and articulate Biblical responses. Planning to get the book…!

COMMENT/QUESTION: Since the Supreme Court decision in 2015 (Obergefell v. Hodges) has legalized gay marriage, how should Christians politically engage on this topic?

I took notes. Thank you, Sean

I didn’t read the guests last book but know that 3 well known Christian’s, who used to identify as homosexual, disagreed with many points in that book. Is he changing his position on all or any of these?

QUESTION: What would you say is the best book on the traditional/historically Christian view of marriage and the best book on the same-sex/affirming view of marriage? Scholarly or laymen level. Thanks!

I very much appreciate this research and discussion! Hard topic! God bless you both! I believe in man woman biblical marriage and see homosexuality as a result of living in a fallen world. Confident Gods grace and love heals ❤

Question: Do you have any family members that you are close to that are gay? If so, please describe that relationship.

Really interesting vid, but every time I glanced at Preston, I thought Sean had got John Cena with him 😬🤣

QUESTION: how confident are you both that you have this theologically correct on this topic?

1:34 - What do you hope to accomplish in this book/interview? 3:35 - What is the historic Christian view of marriage and why does scripture support that view? --- 6:30 - " 'One flesh' does not imply sex difference." 16:45 - "Paul was not talking about consensual same-sex relationships." 25:48 - "Romans 1 is condemning excessive lust, not same-sex relationships." 34:58 - "The biblical writers didn't know about sexual orientation." 43:49 - "The word 'homosexual' was added to the Bible in 1946." 50:41 - "Jesus's Sabbath hermeneutics informs how we should interpret same-sex prohibitions." 59:38 - "God's acceptance of Gentiles mirrors how we should accept LGB people today." 1:06:26 - "The trajectory of women and slavery justifies same-sex prohibitions." 1:12:02 - "The traditional view of marriage is harmful towards same-sex attracted people." 1:26:04 - "It's an 'agree-to-disagree' issue."

Wow! What a packed interview. Love you Sean and love you Preston. I'm very excited to receive my pre-ordered copy as well!

Just finished listening to his book Embodied on audiobook! Fabulous author and great at defending the faith in a way that's loving and dignifies LGBT+ people!

Hi, Why is it that when it comes to politics, many of our fellow Christians go out of their way to excuse, minimize & embrace sexual sins? 💔

Thank you for taking on this cultural issue.

Thank you Sean. This is one of my favorite videos of yours. I love Preston and the Center. I love the fair and well-thought out dialogue, such compassion and yet not deviating fromGod's plan for marriage. My son, as I'm coming to understand the term, is struggling with Gender Dysphoria. I am reading a book recommended to me entitled STILL TIME TO CARE. So informative. Breaks my heart what some believers have subjected their siblings to, in the name of Christianity. Jesus did not bully people. We have the Holy Spirit to guide us, to temper our speech with Grace. A big thank you to both of you Love to you and your families 💯📖❤️🎶

It feels risky being so detailed in small word shifts when we are reading a text that wasn’t written in our native tongue. Usually when we retell something it’s not exactly the same. Could this simply be the reason a verse is written differently? And are we over analysing?

Dr. Sprinkle, you mention shame negatively several times throughout this conversation and I'm wondering if shame avoidance is more of a secular expectation in life. I think it plays a large part of the "harm" aspect of culture you discussed. Can't we expect most unbelievers, when faced with the truth and as they are being drawn to Jesus, to feel shame at the God-given realization of their own sinfulness, no matter how it "presents?" But I know that believers should never "heap shame" on others, as we ourselves have been forgiven much! Just wondering how to navigate that line in an ultra-sensitive culture!

Very illuminating and clarifying discussion thanks guys, I can attest to your arguments , my testimony is a bit extreme, i came to into Christ after getting married to a dude, Paul is completely correct in Corinthians 13 “love is patient, love is kind” Christ didn’t give up on us. Though my husband and I needed to go through this process to understand the Truth is True Love . Jesus has gone to hell for us! And everyone who supported our marriage . The power and love for Jesus is found in a new generation of compassionate believers that didn’t once condemn while we were slowly waking up!!

I can still find it as just “homosexual” on google but maybe I used different search words. Anyways, thank you for handling your arguments with openness, Grace, and no hint of disgust or hatred. Sharing your journey on how open minded and willing you were to change your mind but still finding that the arguments didn’t hold up to scrutiny was a really great way to present the information and I wish more popes could be like the both of you. So many people give up Christianity when they find out they’re lgbtq and a lot of the reason is the Christians, but only because not all Christians are like the two of you. Ofc, plenty are,too-and a lack of understanding that has lead to Christianphobia as a counter to homophobia. I know I did for a long time before coming back, except I didn’t go as far as having this full blown Christianphobia myself, although I was still uneasy around Christians for fear of how they would react to our differences. So thank you so much! 💜

Thank you so much!

QUESTION: how would you respond to this? Sex and romantic relationships are like electricity and running water. They may not be necessary for individual human flourishing, but they undeniably benefit us and forcing certain groups of people to not have it would be equivalent to saying to villagers in africa " hey we all lived without these things for thousands of years so you don't need them and we are going to keep it for ourselves"?

Thank you guys for doing this discussion. My daughter has a Methodist friend that goes to an affirming church and was interested in these arguments. Really, the best argument I've seen is that no where in the Bible is same sex relationships/ marriage is it spoken about in a positive affirming manner. Therefore don't believe it be God's design. I however, at the same time don't believe we should ever treat friends or family that practice same sex badly. I also grieve the stories I hear of them being treated badly- bullying, harassment, kicking them out etc. However, how do you think the church should respond when gay/lesbians want to be in leadership and feel rejected and spiritual abuse when the church doesn't.

QUESTION: is it harmful to mention predisposition to alcohol abuse as an example to illustrate how innate desires don't necessarily lead to human flourishing?

I appreciate Preston’s ministry and I’m also confused that some very well known ministers have called him out because of his “exiles in Babylon” book/curriculum. I haven’t looked into this book to form my own opinion, but I wish that there can be a conversation between Preston and Christopher Yuan, Beckett Cook, Rosaria Butterfield and Alisa Childers to clear up everyone’s position/theology on this.

QUESTION: Should the church focus less on whether gay people should get married or not and start focusing more on the importance and beauty of celibacy and singleness (Jesus and Paul as examples). To instead of focusing and spending time on the problem, to actually focus a lot more on the solution.

If Eric loves Fred (ie an example of two random men) Best scenario : "Dear God, unless you, (God only could do this if he so wished!) turn one of us into an actual woman, (with God all things are possible, but not necessarily his will!) We will content ourselves to be affectionate but platonic friends. Your will be done, (not always easy, but best because you love us! )

Good discussion. One of the things I'll say is that we can't allow "emotional guilt trip ploys" to deter us from the truth! What do I mean? Saying things like: "Your theology is "harmful" to gay people", or, I'm going to commit suicide if I can't do this, or have this relationship" is a way to "guilt" people into affirming their lifestyle/sin. Am I denying that some gay people have attempted, actually committed, or thought about suicide because of the struggle? Absolutely not! Those stories are sad and hurt my heart. But that can't be what determines truth! I think the gay community uses that to their advantage if you will, to make people affirm their sin. I struggle with SSA myself, and have most of my life. Although I've never thought about suicide or harming myself {by the Grace of GOD!} I don't deny the truth of that reality. But again, that's not how we determine if something is true or not. Scripture is the final authority on the issue. Anyway, just my thoughts. Again, good interview. And glad they affirm the truth of scripture. GOD bless.

Real sins are behaviours that harm people. An adulterer (someone who cheats on their partner) hurts their partner. Robbery, rape, sexual abuse, murder aren't just sins but are recognised as crimes and involve a perpetrator and a victim(s). But homosexuality has no perpetrator or victim. In fact its just people living no differently to the way heterosexuals live. Falling in love, having sex, working, building lives together. What's shocking is its not just child or serial killers, in fact even mass murderers can enter the Christian heaven after repenting, whilst innocent homosexuals who've never killed anyone or committed any crime are kept out. This is some twisted and perverted rule made by this Christian God. I observed in the conversation Sean McDowell used 'consensual incest' as a reason for dismissing homosexual marriage as acceptable just because its also consensual. So I refer him to Genesis 26: Then God said, "Let us make a man - someone like ourselves to be master of all life upon Earth and in the skies and in the seas". 27. So God made man like his maker. Like God did God make man. Man and woman did he make them. 28. And God blessed them and told them "Multiply and fill the Earth and subdue it; you are masters of the fish and birds and all the animals." So God makes two people a man and a woman (Adam & Eve) and tells them to multiply (have intercourse and give birth to children). Notice the problem here. Who when the children are older are they going to have intercourse with to continue this multiplication of the Earth? Are we to assume each other incestuously? It has to be that if the Bible is to be taken literally. But that then implies God approves of incest. So what's it to be? Genesis is the word of God? So God does approve of incest or Genesis is just an allegorical story? In which case don't take the Bible seriously; or perhaps Genesis and the Bible are a load of made up nonsense? In which case you'd be better advised to avoid.

QUESTION about Sexual orientation and gender identity… Would an affirmation of everyone being born in sin (Psalms 51:5, Romans 5:12-14) help to dispel the notion that sexual orientation being “natural” meaning it is somehow therefore not sin?

Concerning the definition of marriage, lately I've been pondering the concepts of legal marriage verses biblical marriage. I've wondered, when did marriage become the purview of the state? It's obviously possible to have a legal marriage that is not biblical. But is it possible to have a Biblical marriage that is not legal? My initial thought, is that in today's society we tend to conflate the two...but is that correct?

Could you please clarify “harm” more. Some LGB friends view any kind of orthodox stature regarding LGB relations and/or view that as being “harmful” and threatening in modern Western secular cultures.

Do you have a suggestion on how to introduce this topic to children. how to prove it to them at their level of understanding. Thanks

Sex outiside of the context of marriage between a man and a woman is sin. But that said, everyone is fallen, and need grace. We should love everyone, regardless of their flaws, without saying that the flaws are a good thing.

QUESTION: Where/when does church discipline play a role, with eventual excommunication from a church if one does not repent? I can't make someone not sin, that's between the Holy Spirit and the individual. if we shouldn't excommunicate a same-sex couple from a church then why not er on the side of grace?

Thank God for the Corinthians! I grew up in the Silicone Valley near San Francisco. And now live in Santa Cruz. A lot of people compare the Corinthians to San Francisco. What an excellent timely thoughtful show. Brilliant men giving their knowledge and insights away! True big brother vibe coming through. Thank you so much guys, very helpful. I agree about Bible authority. I feel having the common ground as Bible authority is the challenge of our century. I'm going to watch this again. So much great stuff here, heavy. McDowell is a national treasure at this point. He brings class with the fire and is afraid of no topic.

[Question] I have a somewhat unrelated question to the same sex topic, but I do think it relates. The question is (and you guys mentioned this quite a bit in the video), how do I go about my research (in this topic as well as others) without being biased? In other words, how do I approach a topic without "wanting" one side to win out (which would probably affect how I do my research if I wanted one view to be correct). Also, and this is also tangential, but every time you mentioned this it was about same sex "relationships." What about masterbation? The only text I think the Bible covers on this (and I could be wrong) is the implications of Genesis 38:9 (Don't read this verse on your video because it is graphic).

How bout the fact that there is “nothing new under the sun”? That right there shows Paul was at least in a culture (because it’s not new) where consensual same sex relationships existed and was at least aware of the possibility of them if not them in actuality.

Sean you should create a Spotify you upload your content to. You have a lot of good stuff I would like to listen to but not exactly able to on here all the time

Good talk.

Is it just me or does Preston Sprinkle seem like a very appropriate name for someone addressing this topic?

QUESTION In argument number 10 you discussed the idea that homosexual relationships at least put your soul in jeopardy. How do we as Christians balance that view with the idea that we are saved through grace alone and not by the things we do and don’t do?

COMMENT/QUESTION: Clarification is needed regarding "sex and marriage is [or isn't] necessary for human flourishing." I think you're equating "flourishing" with fulfillment, meaning, and purpose in life on an individual level. On a broad level of mankind, I would argue sex and marriage is necessary for human flourishing. We're commanded to be fruitful and multiply. This is another reason why same-sex relationships are not good for society. However, though singles may not contribute to human flourishing and perpetuating the next generation, that doesn't mean their life can't be fulfilling, and like Paul, be focused on ministry without the distraction and responsibility of a family. That's really your point, I think, but I wouldn't call it human flourishing.

Sean, do you still endorse Preston’s book “Embodied” which endorsed the use of gender pronouns for “hospitality” purposes?

Question: My daughter who came out as gay a couple years ago and has since “married” her partner. We don’t allow them to sleep together in our home either before or since their union. That makes them upset with us because, “we don’t accept them the way God made them to be.” We want to stay true to God’s word over all, and we would like to keep some semblance of a relationship with them if possible. Is there a way to not compromise the Word but still keep a relationship with our daughter?

Great conversation. The Bible is so obvious on this subject, yet our culture just wants to go by what "feels" right. Thank you both for always speaking with kindness in a non judgmental manner. You both speak truth without being mean.

Thank you both for taking the time to delve into this. I appreciate both of your work. Preston, I love to listen to Theology in the Raw. QUESTION - One thing that I've heard, but I haven't heard a thoughtful Christian response on is this: that the recent rise in homosexuality and in God honoring people who affirm same sex marriage is that we've entered a new dispensation where God is changing the focus of marriage. It's kinda a mixture of the "movement of history" argument and the "Paul didn't know about consensual partnerships" mixed with high-sounding theology. The argument goes that Israel had strict purity laws for food and clothing, but that all changed in the book of Acts so that gentiles would be welcomed. That change wasn't restoring anything Eden-ic, and was a huge stumbling point for Peter. Same sex marriage wasn't a thing in the ancient world, and the earth still needing to be replenished, so God reaffirmed the mosaic law and Genesis. We've reached a point in history where the earth has been replenished, so I've heard the argument that God's new dispensation towards marriage focuses some people and therefore marriages just on the aspects of love and also of orphan care. How would you respond to that?

If someone feels they were “born this way”, of course we have compassion but we can cast those demons out..

QUESTION based on Acts 15 should Christians abstain from eating strangled animals or blood?

1:19:30 it also says something about the view of people who are celibate regardless of their orientation 😢

So I’ve got a question for which I have not been able to get a solid answer. How do you square the religious implications of gay marriage vs the civil rights implications of gay marriage? Let me try to unpack this. There are a lot of civil rights that are afforded to married couples that are not afforded to unmarried couples, regardless of gender in the marriage. In the US, probate, adoption, and filing jointly on taxes come to mind. As it stands, if you happen to be a gay couple that is unmarried and one of you happens to die, probate dictates that your belongings go to the nearest living relative. So if you’ve been in the same homosexual marriage for 20 years, your belongings would go to….your mother (??), not your partner of 20 years, sans marriage. If you’re utilizing a government entity to adopt a child, one of the metrics they look at for the stability of the household is longevity of marriage. Let’s say that marriage is a religious institution, and the religious ought calls to the legal is, doesn’t this make a giant call to separation of church and state. To use redutio ad absurdum, if I were not allowed to attend public university because I haven’t celebrated a bar mitzvah, how would you look at that scenario? So, to counter my own is-ought fallacy…let’s say marriage shouldn’t be legal only to justify the civil rights ramifications that would come along with it destroying the Christian worldview of the sanctity of marriage (though it could be argued that the sanctity of marriage went the way of the dodo when they had drive through marriages officiated by Elvis). What would you replace marriage with? Objectively, length of marriage is a decent indicator on the stability of the household prior to an adoption…with adoption needing a stable household. What would you replace marriage with to indicate that stability? What system would you put in place to file taxes jointly, and not constantly be gaming the government? What system would you put in place to have assurances that in the probate system, a conniving mother isn’t paid in lieu of a long term homosexual partner? And, keep in mind, in order to make sense, the system that is replacing marriage would have to be as easy as the umbrella that marriage affords homosexuals on a civil rights basis. I’m halfway through the video and loving it so far. As an atheist, it helps me understand my parents’ worldview just a bit more. And I know the premise of the video is a biblical based argument. But, how can you convince a large swath of people that see referring to the Bible in a *legal* context (and if you’re being intellectually and logically honest, this will apply to you as well) as anything but a call to authority?

*QUESTION* Why do Christians _never_ address the physical damage of sodomy? Or the severe reduction in lifespan for homosexuals? I once heard a doctor say that he warned his patients about the harm and listed very gruesome things. He said his oath to "do not harm" would not allow him to lie. But Christians ignore this very critical part of the conversation time and again in the name of being cordial or perhaps not being crude. So there's only partial truth. And a big part of the issue is left out. Going on a special diet so that you can participate in atrocious, abominable, destructive acts is very serious in my opinion. I watched my cousin die in his 20s participating in this lifestyle. And I wish Christians would stop sugar coating truth.

***Question*** Do you believe homosexual thoughts and desires are a sin or do you think that, as long as you don't commit the act, you don't have anything to repent of?

QUESTION: My question is about the idea of homosexual 'orientation' vs. homosexual action. Obviously, being tempted toward sin is not itself a sin, but Jesus seems to indicate that dwelling or ruminating on temptation (in your mind) is a sin - see the sermon on the Mount. The message here seems to be that it is not simply about 'outward' behavior, but the condition or 'orientation' of the heart toward sin. Jesus equates lusting after a woman with the sin of adultery so there is some sort of nuance and demarcation here. How does your assertion that people can 'be homosexual' and not act on it align with this distinction? Also, it seems Church movements (like ReVoice, etc.) that are asserting one can be a Christian and live in 'celibate homosexual relationships' stretch this idea of temptation not being a sin. These assume the reality of 'homosexual identity,' which seems to cede the fundamental principle. How is this different than the old distinction between 'doing everything but intercourse' as heterosexual teens (so-called 'heavy petting') being somehow ok. This celibate homosexuality seems to make the same theological/biblical error as the EBI perspective. Finally, the idea of orientation seems to miss the point that we are 'fallen' and indeed all 'oriented' toward sin of one kind or another. There is a distinction between being tempted to sin and affirming a sinful 'identity' - it that makes sense. Thanks for any insights or thoughts on these ideas.

Read Kathy Faust: Them before us, also listen to Sean's interview with her!

No discrimination in my country. Both couples, same or opposite, are treated equally with marriage available for both.

Important book to read Sean is "The Gods Have Returned" which gives amazing insight into how America has arrived to where its at.

Question: Preston mentioned he has spent much time investigating this issue with a possibility to become affirming if he felt that scripture taught it. That’s a stunning presupposition for a Christian. My question is, why is that really necessary when we know from the whole of the Bible that the perfect order that God created is male and female together, not any alternatives, and that changing that order results in devastating moral and civilizational consequences, even in the extinction of humanity, as the alternatives cannot produce life? Why spend so much time seeking an alternative answer when it is obvious to even the uneducated that this is true?

The argument that "No one thought there was an inborn orientation in the ancient world", in addition to being provably false, also outsmarts itself. Were people with those desires THEMSELVES unaware of this? If the answer is No, then yes, there were those who believed it. If the answer is yes, then the desire itself isn't that compelling if it goes unrecognized until very recent times.

I'm not hearing any commentaries on how this is our view as the church of God, but can't impose our view on the world at large, and how we will respect the laws of the country. How are we going to treat them if they wanted to become members of our church, etc.

The "mother and father" the man leaves are of the same flesh as the man. He becomes "one flesh" with a woman who was not of that same flesh. A husband and wife form something unique, a new kinship.

As a non-Christian, I find this conversation interesting. It seems like culturally same sex unions are becoming more acceptable. Making theology based objections to it both unconvincing and, for many, distasteful. This pushes younger generationsaway from traditional Christianity. It seems like this creates pressure for Christians to shift (and to reinterpret their texts). These shifts help them stay culturally relevant, but absolutely abandon some of the clear teaching of their scriptures. Not sure what I'm trying to say, I guess it just strikes me as a focal point for an interesting tension between being faithful to the writer's intent in the scriptures and being culturally relevant.

QUESTION: Jesus is returning for his Bride, which consists of both men and women. Is Jesus breaking the created order by being wedded to men? ARGUMENT: I'm not suggesting that Jesus is going to have sexual relations with his Bride. I'm only demonstrating that marriage in its truest sense is about intimacy and relationship, and biological compatibility for sex may not be God's priority. Although God may have originally created marriage for man and woman, he might be more flexible than you are giving him credit for.

Should someone leave a church that no longer adheres to the Biblical orthodox belief in marriage being the union between a man and a woman?

Two thoughts about #9 Many or most Christians have had gut wrenching regret at how the “talk” went once it finally happened. As a sibling of a gay brother, I know first hand. Perhaps there was suspicions, hints, or full knowledge of the other person’s journey. Parents for example, know far more than they let be known, for a number of reasons. Siblings, also can figure things out. I put 2 and 2 together quickly many years ago about my sibling. While the premise that our theology itself causes harm is serious, and sad acknowledgment that harm has indeed come to a dear loved one, here are a few thoughts for those so accused. We don’t know how to respond, so our words are not rehearsed or planned. This is usually the mother, father, brother or sister, and friend. We stumble, and crudely blurt out what pops into our heads first. Unfortunately that is likely the wrong thing to say. While the person advancing a proposition, usually has a better handle on the issues, the person responding doesn’t. They have likely, and understandably, done a lot of research, talked to a lot of people, over a long period of time. Second, the biblical admonition to Christians in these situations is really and truly one of the hardest things of our faith. We are to love the “sinner”, but hate the sin. Not intending to be trite here, and brevity of the forum makes this a little harsh, but it is the truth. Most, if not all truly love the person in question--deeply. They long for a reconciling conversation, but how to be faithful to God and HIs Word on the one hand, and simultaneously communicate love, is difficult, requiring true Spirit guidance. Contrast this with what the world has to do, with no authoritative moorings, Love the sinner, and accept, and love, and proclaim the sin. Oh and also stop calling it sin. Okay that’s easy.

56:19 Hey Sean, I just wanted to push back on the idea that Jesus didn’t imply that we could make this same type of jump. He specifically uses an example of this when he says, “who of you, when your son or your ox falls into a pit, even on the sabbath wouldn’t save them?” Luke 14:5 And then in mark says, “the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.” Mark 2. It seems that while Jesus does not negate the law, in fact in many places he seems to intensify it, he does expect that this line on the sabbath would have already been taking place and points towards it happening more often. He points to past precedent in a sense, rather than an in breaking of his coming be the central reason for the sabbath leniency.

QUESTION: Whats a biblical response when someone asks what a same-sex married couple (especially w/kids) should do, & how it’s any different than a 2nd marriage if the 1st divorce was unbiblical. They claim both are living in continual sin if you believe the Bible.

Should be a short video

Consent is not a pillar of biblical sexual morality, as to allow an opening for gay relationships. If consent determined moral value, it would allow adultery free and clear.

Question: My ex wife and I held to traditional Christian values when married. She asked for a divorce to pursue a same sex relationship and eventually married her. I now share 50% custody of our 5 boys with her. How do I best teach my kids the traditional values without coming in direct opposition with their mother? Her progressive Christian worldview and lifestyle presents as happy, fulfilling, and successful. My desire is for the spiritual well being and building a relationship with Christ for her and my boys. The threat is how the LGBTQ is presenting as successful and the Christian world-view is presenting as rules and exclusion.

You say you affirm the historic Christian view, but you should scope that to this topic. There's loads of traditions you teach that contrast historical Christianity, unless you limit historical Christianity to the protestant reformation, and even then.

I appreciate your scholarship and the willingness of both of you to examine the issues in a humble way. However, it does worry me if we think such basic issues require a PhD to be reasonably sure of our ground. This matter seems to me to be a Jude (in the New Testament) issue. Those who are deceived by clever arguments are "devoid of the Spirit". (Jude 18,19) By contrast the Holy Spirit makes such things clear if and when we need to know and if we ask Him. (James 1:5)

I have always suspected the thorn in Paul's side might've been same-sex desire. It might help explain his call to celibacy & his begging to have the thorn removed.

What about Matthew 19:12. Like for any sexual sin.

Inerrant Old Testament definition of marriage, as decreed by God: One man, one woman, and maybe two women, or three or four if the man can support them and if the first few wives aren’t giving the man enough sons, then the man can become one flesh with as many wives as he can tolerate. Cool.

40:09 Or the apostle Paul, writing under the influence of divine inspiration, did a have better grasp on human sexuality and sexual orientation than we do today. And his pronouncements of them as being “given up” is his judgement on a creation that has not graduated in its understanding of sexuality-but rather degenerated in it.

about 46 minutes in it depends what we actually mean by "homosexual" whether we are talking about an attraction, orientation or identity, whether we are talking about a transvestite male acting out a caricature of a woman or whether we are talking about someone actually having relations with another person of the same sex. A passage that I haven't heard brought up yet (maybe it was and I missed it) is in 1 Thessalonians 1 from verse 9 where Paul talks about the law not being made for the righteous but the unrighteous, wherein he speaks about homosexuals and sodomites as two categories rather than one. Now we know from the story of the angels visiting Lot in Sodom what a Sodomite is. Some interlinear bibles might even translate it literally as "male bedder" and so we know that this is the actual sex act. What I interpret "homosexual" as in this context, would be like a cross-dressing male acting out his mental projection of what it is to be a woman, and his interpretation of what it means to have a female personality (which is usually a caricature in my observation, similar to Dylan Bud-light...I know his real last name but forgot how to spell it 😝Deuteronomy 22 has a verse that says that a man should not dress like a woman and a woman must not dress like a man...and I've heard some toasty arguments about that like "women shouldn't wear pants" and I knew someone who went to a church who had that as one of their CORE DOCTRINES, yikes!!! But what I think it really means is that the differentiation between a man and a woman should be clear and distinct, so that we shouldn't have to wonder whether someone is male or female or ask "what is a woman". Genesis 1 says that in the image of God made He him, male and female made He them. I don't believe that this excludes women from the image of God, but rather than men and women reflect their gendered part in the image of God, and the one flesh union of marriage completes His image reflected in us

Jesus also maps the Sabbath typology into his fulfillment of the law and prophets and Paul later affirms that Sabbath rest was a shadow of Christ. Since Christ uses Biblical marriage typology to speak of the church's relation to himself. Old testament as well between God and Israel. Wouldnt you have to break form with how writers refers this relationship between us and God or break form with what the Sabbath is in its essence for this objection about Sabbath practice to be be true of same sex?

Adultery is tagged alongside same-sex behaviors in all of the vice lists of early Christianity. These days, we have made accommodations for people to remarry, and this sin is at least as serious, or to my mind, much more serious for the health of families. However, there are no Side A (allowed to remarry), Side B (remain celibate) or Side X (need to go back to first spouse) debates for heterosexuals on this issue. What we do should be as grace- based for everyone. As celibacy is not biblically mandated and if we expect all gay people to be celibate, what grace is there for them if they don't have this capacity/gift? We have heard many stories of our gay siblings experiencing how deeply this aloneness affects their mental health. Shouldn't there be grace for them as there is for those who are divorced and remarrying?

The only reason we have to confirm is due to the fact that there are and always will be who will deny to accommodate their own powerful desires. There is absolutely nothing that could be said or quoted that will change Satan' Mind and actions.