RMAF17: Affordability: How Low Can You Go? 

For a conference of audiophiles you'd think the audio quality in this video would be better.

I spent my working life troubleshooting and designing power supplies. Linear power supplies are a lot like power audio amps when it comes to design. So if I need a power amp I look for a broken power amp and figure I can fix it myself. Several years ago I picked up a Hafler DH120 amp with a bad channel for $50. I know the FET outputs on those amps are just about impossible to kill so I was pretty sure it was not a b;own output. I put it on the bench and found a shorted 2 cent signal diode, I replaced that and the amp worked fine. While I was in there I replaced a bunch of small electrolytics (the main filter caps were good) I put the cover back on and that was that. For a total of about $55 I ended up with a good 60w/ch power amp that will drive anything in it's power range.

First, this discussion needs to enter Facebook, Reddit and face to face support groups for people dealing with abuse, illness, and disabilities who need affordable music and equipment. These people are building musical first aid kits. Second, I like this point that the listening is the most important thing. I started out with jvc flats and sony buds in high school. I loved listening carefully. When I picked out my flats, I looked at the specs and tried to figure out what they meant. My dad had driven me to Walmart. I tried to find the best quality headphones in the store. Then I found meeelectronics m9p, the pearlescant white and grey ones. They were so pretty. I loved them for four years in college. Then, I started looking for a replacement and found headfi. I found out that I wasn't crazy for noticing sound differences between headphones.

there is one part of a persons hifi system that if you have one.. can change how you appreciate the best sound you can get in your room.. & that is a Wife.. when they are happy .. that is as far as you can go..

I'm all about movies. I have HRA capabilities but the difference is so slight that I don't even bother with it anymore.

How would that outlaw receiver and the Mangepan .7's compared to a Harmon Kardon HK PPM 665 VXI and a pair of Klipsch KG4?

12:30 is def true.

Scott Hull made multiple dumb comments. Making fun of audiophile forums as if everything on them us useless was dumb You could say the same thing about blogs like his. The LS50W is $2200 not $2500 and he doesn't get what it is or does.

Scott hull is irritating

These guys have listened to super expensive stuff. The best stuff. Now they talking about $1,000 - $2,000 systems. Down to earth people. Not snobs. 👍👍

I don't know who Scott Hull is, but I don't like how he talks. It's the uptalk. But it's a subtly pretentious uptalk. And monotonous as hell.

One of the greatest contributions that the audiophile community could make, in my view, is to focus on and showcase systems and components at real world prices - music for the everyday person, for the middle class, for those early in their careers, for those with young families, for those with student debt. Maybe these systems would be in the $1k to $5K range. Most of us drive Fords, GM, Toyotas and so on, not Porsche, Benz, or BMW. Also, as a statement of admittedly very individual perspective, my connection with the world beyond the USA, beyond my own comfortable lifestyle, with diverse economic communities would leave my conscience unsettled to spend $30K on speakers or $20K on a pair of mono blocks. If people wish to spend their disposable income on such items, such is certainly there prerogative, but I am not at a place where my world view would allow me to do so, even if my bank account would.

You can set up a pretty decent audio home theater for under $1000.

"There's more cooking to audio than engineering" -cHerb "Herbert" Reichert

*_What Cables? ...Trust me, if you go down the 'CABLE' rabbit hole, you'll emerge thousands of dollars poorer, and still not happy... Years ago, when I asked an audio technician friend: "Can you recommend some interconnects & speaker cables? - He simply replied. - "Dude, Save Your Friggin Money" - He then went on to demonstrate, that as long as you use OFC copper cables, you can change, or manipulate any sound I wanted from your sound system... We then spent the next 20 mins, with a bunch of high quality, resistors, tiny polystyrene capacitors, swapping values at input & output of all signal cables, until I said, "Stop, that's it, now I hear better sound staging and imaging" ... After my excitement settled down, I said; "This whole Cable & Speaker wire industry is a fraud then?" "EXACTLY" he replied, "it's all about resistance, and capacitance compatibility between the source, the preamp, the amplifier, and your speakers... And, by the way, the sound of any phono cartridge can be manipulated in the same way, to a certain degree._* 👀😎👍🎵

Astatic MF-200 Cartridge Dual 1229 York Phonostage Audio Space AS-3i , Casta B Horn Spearker. BlueSound Vault

Bluetooth (even ldac) is not fit for the purpose: it's a bodge that makes the best of a bad thing but chokes bandwidth. It wasn't designed for this so it's the weak link in the chain. When is a new generation of true broadband BT coming?

But bad dealers push a completely different product than the one your interested for their personal benefit. This just happened to me yesterday.

Sony STRDH550 and STDH130 receivers sound great Audtio technica Lp60 and Lp120 decent entry level TT's Dayton B652 AIR geat sounding little bookshelves Fiio D3 DAC 20.00 or so Sounds great. Portta Premium dac 20.00 sounds great Monoprice bookshelf speakers pretty good. Those chinese Hybrid tube integrateds sound quite good and look cool.

That's the "key indeed! When I bought my used x300a kef speakers and dm602 b&w, I thought to myself, how would the "flagship" sound like. Now, I'm refraining myself to buying anything else since I got a lot of hobbies and the human life span doesn't let me learn and experience so many things so I am predisposed to make this as a type of diminishing return. Buy something now that I'm content with, keep the things you want to watch i.e movies, anime for me and save it for those moments when I can a blissfully system equipment in the future, and just sit the weekend on the couch all day if possible to indulge in them, also re-watching what I had seen previously. I made up my mind to also try and build myself a concept speaker, but I cannot afford it right now since it involves multiple array drivers, and its a lot for me atm.

I have helped many people over the past 40 years get a good sounding system at a price they could afford. The best acquisition I made was a pioneer 80 watt per channel vintage receiver at a flea market and a perfect found in the garbage pair of sansui loudspeakers from the 70's which we rebuilt with new drivers and crossovers. The entire system was $275. he still has it and with the jazz he plays its killer!

If you think stereo equipment is high price... don’t even get into luxury watches.

Very few people know about Tidal, I ditched Tidal for Amazon HD music. I still buy used CDs for cheap as my main source for audio. Some day when CD makes a comback I'll be ahead of the game.

enjoy your life, have nice vacations, do NOT let yourself scammed. ears will adjust. i can tell you about money. everything you spend above you can afford, it's stupid. when i did not had money i had a $100 CA DAC and a $50 SH Sennheiser headphones and it was perfect. When i had a little more money, i have started flipping Yamaha vintage Natural Sound line gear till i got a decent under $1000 setup which includes a cassette player, a cd player, a turntable and an amp. all these i put em in a rack and bought a pair of floor speakers and that's it. i can go digital or analog, i have decent power for a small room and i don't give a shit about all the audiophiles farts out there. i still enjoy my dac and headphones. ears will adjust anyway. go live your life, spend your money on a good vacation damit, not multi x1000 idiotic setups. this is a waste of time and money. help a human in need instead of pumping money in shit.

My so sorry but you guys are talking about sound quality an the how much it cost but to my ears you guys sound muffled can we start there first ...

This Discussion is interesting to (poor) me.......BUT......with all these audio boffins in the building....WHY. CAN'T. THEY. MIKE. AND. MIX. THESE. PANEL. DISCUSSIONS. CORRECTLY. !!!

Just buy headphones. Done.

I used to have very good set up but I seem to spend more time tweeking My Linn Sondek turntable Because I was not happy with the sound. Records over time wore out the sound became less than my Hi Fi expectation vinyl has made a come back because it is supposed to be better than CD and the cost is prohibitive Tried different cables and so on You can spend a fortune on Hi fi trying to improve the sound and manufactures bring out new products but is it any better than what you have all ready? There is no such thing as the perfect sound how it sounds in the studio can not be replicated at home all you can do is make it sound a pleasing according to your taste.

these guys say it takes experience to put together a decent system and with care you can do it for 2k, but thats ridiculous. it takes neither experience nor money and decent gear to have fun with audio gear or enjoy music. the best time i ever had with gear was my pocket 9 volt transistor radio--- I recall when I was in 4th grade, listening to a broadcast of the Beatles in the playground, and listening to records on my cheap portable record player on a rainy day. I got more out of that cheap stuff than out of kilo buck gear later in life. for me the gear+money+sound quality has been misleading people and leading them to spend absurd sums. the key question for me is how much fun am I having?

Under $1,500.00CAN is affordable. Between $1,500.00 and $2,000.00 is stretching things but if I really feel the extra money is going to get me something special, OK. Above $2,000.00CAN for a single component I'm just dreaming. Those components that are $10,000.00 and above, that's just Audio Porn.

The grey/yellow plastic open back Sennheiser was a revelation. I used it for a couple of decades. Bought it in Germany when it was practically unknown in North America . Wish I'd kept it !!!!!!

The prices these guys are speaking of are ridiculous. If they fear that fewer folks are getting into the audio market, they should concentrate in getting folks interested at a lower point of entry of good quality. Many manufacturers are doing it, Schiit Audio comes to mind, as does SVS, Klipsch, Outlaw, Emotiva, etc. One thing the AVR manufacturers need to consider is installing pre-outs on the backs of their lesser expensive units. That right there would be a step in the right direction. These guys need to get them young, as it is a very fun hobby, a hobby that does not have to break the bank.

I would like to know the model Warfdale speakers Herb said he liked over the KEF LS 50 , because Crutchfield has the Diamond 225 on sale for $ 299.00 this Christmas ?

Steve, you mentioned Dayton audio from parts Express. When they have sales you can put together a 5.1 system for about $600. The 652 air on sale is $50, the 652 is $36, the center with the air motion tweeter $37, 10" sub 100 watt amp $119, yamaha receiver $250. $495 + shipping and you would get a system that would be enjoyable

These always go way South. One word of truth is said before the whole room gets fucked about how much they have spent in the last year.

Talking about diversity. The audiophile world needs to change.

Who in the audience isn't loaded?

07:33 I got a £100 Wharfdale Dimond’s 9.1’s over the LS50s, what a great sounding speaker.

These are mature men. Do they have real jobs like the rest of us or is playing with toys their real jobs?

Year after year shocking audio quality on these fabulous seminars. Unbelievable considering the industry being represented here. Please try harder this October and thanks for these wonderful videos. I just wish they were easier to listen to.

Good talk. Not sure why the sound is so terrible on these videos. When some of the audience members were asking questions they should have passed a mic around.

outlaw audio ftw! Love their monoblocks and preamp with the 1.7 maggies..

they had this same argument last year

never in human history has an industry conned so many, so often and so blatantly. 40 year duration hifi enthusiast-music lover. just tube-rolling my Wavac MD-311, prior to my cry-treated cables being delivered. :P

I'll buy a great cartridge for $3😎😃

Good discussion but you would expect some better sound recording for an "audiophile" video.

I followed this advice and now I have a nice system... a combination of NAD and ELAC. Thanks to Steve and Herbert for some great advice.

Look for used. All this stuff craters in value after the first sucker buys in.

I think what needs to be discussed by this panel is whether hifi audio will exist in 30 years. If good quality, entry level gear is not continuously made available, there will be no new customers and the market will dwindle down to just the uber high-end... then eventually to nothing. That said, Herb Reichert is quickly becoming one of my favorite contributors. Once again he is spot on here with his comments. The first key to building a hifi system is simply listening: with your own ears determine what you like best and what suites your needs best. Do you want to rock out or play Mozart late night with a glass of wine in your hands? Understand that at the entry level, gear can't do everything well. Then, as far as acquiring gear goes, be open to purchasing used and understand that system matching and proper system setup are key. Lastly, if you are just a bit handy, DIY is an excellent way to save money. Even if you don't build anything of consequence, you will gain a lot of knowledge and be better able to discern quality gear from rubbish. Guttenberg has useful info, but sometimes is as kooky as that shirt he's wearing. If his articles are simply, as he says, written to be interesting and not to be critical, then I would say that he is wasting our time. I'm pretty sure J. Gordon Holt did not share this view when he founded Stereophile.

this apparently is a girl-free zone

I would love to go to a brick and mortar store but the two I used to deal with, Stereo exchange and Harvey electronics are rude and won't give me a break on anything. I always go into the shop knowing what I want and I am always treated worse than poorly. Add the NYC 10% tax and I am buying direct.

Cheapest way. Steal someone else’s

Herbert is the only one who isn’t trying to sell you anything.

Yes, you can now have a whole system at $2000, the Elac Argo, and it will sound excellent. Better than some floorstanders actually, and they are bookshelf speakers.

speaker cables and interconnects don't matter, DAC doesn't matter, amp doesn't matter (within reason). What matter's is the speakers and so does the room, room, room! Far too many 20k+ systems out there in awful sounding rooms, and the poor audiophiles trying to figure it all out by swapping out 2 thousand dollar interconnects, simply because they have bought into the "hobby" of acquiring what amounts to jewelry for their systems, instead of widening their understanding of acoustics and music reproduction.

I think this conversation gets particularly interesting around 29:46 and I really like what the panel says about file formats at that point in the discussion. "There's no magic bullet . ." in media formats. It has much more to do with the care and art of creating those tracks, regardless of the format.

I recently bought a Marantz 240 power amp made in 1972. I took it to a tech who builds valve amps worth many thousands, to get it converted to 240v. He was so impressed with the build quality. He said it sounds like a valve amp. It didn’t need a new cap. Not one and only ran warm after two hrs on, I can’t imagine what a similar quality amp would cost now. $5k -$10k? $700 plus shipping!

I suggest that people buy used. You can get a great sounding system started for around $1,000. Hmm. Try this on for size. A British made Myryad MI 120 integrated amp, along with a set of made in Denmark System Audio SA 205 compact speakers. Throw in Acoustic Zen WOW interconnecting cables, AudioQuest NRG Power Cords, and add in some used Transparent MusicWave plus speaker cables, Sanus speaker stands, and a source of your choice. You can do it...

Did they say "Shit Audio"?

Great advice. I would add one thing buy everything used! Except the cartridge!!

One audiodealer is better Than all internet threads!!

Philosophy -- Love it

MQA is garbage

Blue Tooth amp seems like a good buy! I knew it finally they are starting to sound better this is exciting.

What is affordable best audio that's an easy one its called REAL LIFE! All talk no actual practical loudspeaker eq amps and all that jazz just a load of yap, yap that I skipped though in less than 1 min.

Herbert is Right. The Magnepan .7s or 1.7s are incredible speakers , REAL 3D imaging if setup correctly . on a $200 receiver with regular cables ull get the full potential . Interconnects just get 10 dollar ones. Wire DOESNT Matter unless its to small. Also amplifiers don't matter , Just get Emotivas or A Crown or QsC