Rory Stewart On Empire, Austerity & Why Corbyn Was Right About Iraq | Ash Sarkar meets Rory Stewart 

Or to quote Jeremy Hardy - Voting for the Labour Party is like wiping your bum, you don’t enjoy it but the consequences of not doing it will be worse.

😂😂😂

The absolute BOSS, Iain Banks.

Sweetcorn in a turd is a gem 💎 iv never herd before

Yep. The tories are uncaring and unfeeling. Iain Banks has it down to a 'T'.

Yup, exactly. It's incidental.

I dunno, they certainly don’t *not* set out to kill a lot of immigrants.

Well put. I’m sure the circumstances of the corporate law as well as state law will allow them to legally walk away from accountability altogether. Whoever they are. Perhaps this is the attraction that draws them in to bugger what little is left of democracy, and get minted in the process. RS maybe an apologist, but I don’t buy it. I do think he’s trying so hard to relate. There’s no moral compass. There never was one. Parties don’t have morals.

You must not have heard of Ian Duncan Smith

​@JT-si6bl whenever I hear talk about moral character, be it of an individual or a country - propaganda is going on, true or not.

Thank you. All the tribalism below the line are just shouting in an echo chamber. Makes then feel good but adds nothing to the public conversation that needs to happen.

I watched him on sam Harris podcast He really failed on many moral fronts with Sam when confronted with brutal realities in the Islamic world for oppression of apostates and critics of Islam

@@Gphilly819many people don’t understand the danger of Islam. Saying it’s a dangerous ideology doesn’t make me a racist

The common denominator in all comments that wish for more sensible debate and shared opinions like this, is Rory. He is a great politician and a loss to the any government or political party. A man with a sound moral, ethical and political compass that has no place in the current Tory party.

@@Ollierastall so the question then become how do we do that ... we know what isnt working so now its a matter of coming up with hypothetical new ways and then subjecting them to the scrutiny of many minds and discards the bad ones and the bad parts of good ones and then uh step 3 profit? idk we'll figure it out as we go .... i mean isnt that the story of humanity ... we'll figure it out as we go ....

Yes. Absolutely.

They just don't think about it much, because to them, it's just not that important

The tories of no idea of what it like for the majority of us. And they don't care as they fill their pockets with our money. The don't believe in sharing our wealth around, they just want to profit from it. The UN-elected PM just talks the talk.

Left / Liberal policies cause pain as well. There are all sorts of ways in which diversity causes various people to suffer.

I do think that many DO get personal pleasure from the pain they are causing. Just by having inhumane policies attracts a certain crop. Being a Tory politician is a serial killer’s dream job. Can you think of any other field of work in the UK where one could get away with murder at scale AND be celebrated for it by significant cohort of the population?

@@LS-xs7sgmuch like Roy Jenkins’ reforms {minus the decriminalisation of homosexuality} which I’m convinced have harmed our country immensely.

...and surprisingly I found, at least on his beliefs in the structure of governance, we have a lot in common. I also appreciate his position on the difficulty of foreign intervention and his nuanced understanding about the moral responsibility of intervention. Of course I'm not a small 'c' Conservative like him, but I feel like in a different parliamentary system, he would be a valuable member.

Just ask Disabled people that have to go through the system via the DWP and getting refused followed by living in poverty until tens of thousands of them killed themselves over just a few years, followed by the United Nations investigating in 2018 and condemning the United Kingdom's government as having deliberately destroyed the Human Rights and Lives of millions of Disabled.

@@queenvagabond8787he is weak and liberal and part of the problem why we are in the situation we are in .. we need actual conservatives in government

Troll.

@@queenvagabond8787don’t like Criticism of beloved ash communist hero

Just ask Disabled people that have to go through the system via the DWP and getting refused followed by living in poverty until tens of thousands of them killed themselves over just a few years, followed by the United Nations investigating in 2018 and condemning the United Kingdom's government as having deliberately destroyed the Human Rights and Lives of millions of Disabled.

A genuinely embarrassing comment.

rory stewart is a red tory!! he has always been respectful of jeremy corbyn!!

i thought she did well! usually she is too racist with her views!!@@KlimtEastwood

Rory Stewart tried to say that Scottish independence is wrong because a Celtic tribe once straddled the borders of modern England and Scotland 😂😂 Forgetting that England destroyed the native British celtic peoples

He's an intelligence operative. Of course he can sound plausible.

Just ask Disabled people that have to go through the system via the DWP and getting refused followed by living in poverty until tens of thousands of them killed themselves over just a few years, followed by the United Nations investigating in 2018 and condemning the United Kingdom's government as having deliberately destroyed the Human Rights and Lives of millions of Disabled.

He paves the way for the opportunists and authoritarians.

@@EdwardLindon they’re not interested in him. There are more direct ways to power. Sometimes you just have to acknowledge a diamond in the rough.

Mi6 spy & the truth - not even funny

Agreed. Also important to commend Rory for for being respectful participant.

Best political interveiw I've seen in years.

I agree with you here, this was one of the most interesting downstreams I have watch. Left with a lot of food for thought.

Absolutely, nuance and sincere and honest exchange of views is almost entirely lacking from most areas of public life today and has been for the last twenty years or more (?)

Agreed, I normally can't stand this channel.

we learned about the peterloo massacre in school, but this is the first time i'm hearing about the cotton famine

I had heard of neither but thank you the interesting jaunt through Wikipedia.

The establishment is very much Labour.

@@jackdeniston59 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

@andreakinuthia4197 Nothing has been 'airbrushed out of the curriculum'. Read my longer comment. Educators, I believe, are generally a left leaning bunch. Your criticisms of them is unfounded and without factual merit.

We simply didn't bother to find out what possible downsides there was to what we were doing. Just as long as we can win the next election; that's all that matters.

one would say that not caring is integral to being a genocidal maniac

'We just think it's be financially beneficial to me and my friends if we let you die.'

@@ince55ant Exactly, lack of empathy is how these things start.

To be fair that was Johnsen and he left because of Johnson.

@@arjan2777 To be fair he was a bad apple... like Osbourne was... and Patel... and Frost... and Portillo... and Thatcher.... and Truss.... and Braverman... and and and and and..... at some point denying the communality seems pathological..

@@bodricpriest8816 Humans are herd animals. The nest odor is strong on him and that can be very difficult to escape. I smell some cognitive dissonance. They were all of them horribly wrong but some of them did think they were doing it for the good of the country and others were just in for the benefits. Others were plain mad. With Johnson the grifters and the mad took over so obviously that many had to leave. People can get quite far in defending business interests and still believe it is for the good of the country but brexit and how Johnson did it was not the old pro business party, that is the f*ck business party.

Even if you don't like Novara you might like Downstream because the guests they have on are very diverse and interesting! Politicians are only on sometimes but they're both left and right, they have journalists, historians, economists, musicians, artists, activists, scientists, influencers, and one time even a guy combining statistical analysis and history to predict the future! They're always given space to speak (which is not common in British journalism) and it tends to be pretty thought provoking.

@@TheAnthraxBiology after this video, I’ll be sure to check this out. To be honest, anything Ash is involved with I’ll be interested in after this video, in spite of our ideological differences.

Professionalism and competency extend past political colours and ideology.

Very true@@maggiepie8810

@@TheAnthraxBiologygenerally NOVARO guests are not diverse, they live in ECHO chamber.

Spot on!!

Those politicians and their 'difficult decisions'...

"They would have died anyway no matter what I did, so I just decided to dismiss it and get richer instead"

So what was he supposed to do? Rebel against the whip, be deselected and have no chance of influencing political decisions for the better?

@@cheeseofultimatedoom Yes. the idea that one person can have a significant impact on political outcomes is stupid, it requires many people all acting morally and putting pressure on the system in order to create progress. The idea of a politician voting for bad policy in order to influence for good in the future is like becoming rich through exploitation of the working class in order to spend it on "good causes", it will still result in more bad than good, and is driven by an irrational saviour complex.

Yeah, those certainly aren't just words in his mouth, like some politicians.

@@queenvagabond8787 He explained his beliefs and views in good faith. This is something crucial for having these kind of interviews, discussions, and debates. It gives us a chance to learn from people with different beliefs instead of demonizing and 'othering' them.

There can be no traditional values without nationalism, AKA tribalism. No culture, no community, no future.

You took the words out of my mouth.

A thoughtful debate. Someone like Rory Stewart can make hardliners on the left rethink some of their fixed views. We need thoughtful debate. In depth enquiry. The sound bite culture at least in mainstream media should be forced to give airtime to proper debate.

Some definitely do

I think some of them actually believe that deregulation and free market economics can fix everything. A few days back I read that J.R Mogg wrote a long memo to Kwarteng arguing for a flat tax of 20% across the board for income, corporation and capital gains tax as a maximum while eliminating pension tax relief. Kwarteng rejected it and then proceeded to blow up the government anyway. These guys were ideologues that genuinely thought that was the best way forward.

Yeah a "survival of the fittest" that generates nothing but mediocrity and idiocy

​@@kobinho1917yeah some definitely do

Yes. The Tories sincerely believe in economic ideas proven wrong for decades that just coincidently are congruent with their personal profits. LoL

And one day Daily Mail and BBC news readers will die out. That just leaves Talk TV and GB News to destroy.

Can you imagine this level of calm, thoughtful and considered discussion on any main-stream news channel today?

Well, no, because he also talks about being grounded in Burkeian conservatism, but that potentially rich line of questioning wasn't followed.

Seconded - these two don't agree on everything, but they're smart enough to be simply opponents, not enemies, because of it.

Not just in the UK. She is a better interviewer than anyone on TV in the US as well.

It's Sarkar which means Highness 😂😂

Apart from the delicious irony of regularly calling herself a 'marxist and a communist' (whos regimes were respinsible for 94 million deaths and counting). Then waxing lyrical about it on youtube, the most capitalist video platform ever invented.

Isn' t she wonderful

@@cadenza3210mmm 😂

Right now obviously. Reps n Dems have been very similar in the past - even Obama with his Banker advisors.

@@joso7228 absolutely

rare in the UK too, this was a breath of fresh air. In the states it's more difficult I suppose, because you have the problem in that the visible part of your politics is in large part a dog and pony show. It's hard to find someone with genuine convictions in the whole of on whole side of your whole political spectrum for instance; the "thought leaders" of the republican party, whether politicians or talking heads are, generally speaking, playing to a crowd - it's not really about a genuinely held worldview and conviction but about putting on a show for their audience. How do you engage thoughtfully with that?

I see the second half to my comment where I criticise the dems has been shadow-deleted. RU-vid's censor-bot is crazy enthusiastic these days, I wonder if the right-wingers have a point there haha

@@Muzikman127 it's ridiculous

I feel like most people explode after being asked a question like that. Rory just buried his face for a bit and then formulated an incredible response. Well done to both of them.

Yes, the interaction between the personal and the societal is a major under current in the discussion. Refreshingly so. What he actually does without putting it into explanatory words is slip the noose of the either/or paradigm and answer from a position embracing /accepting paradox. And until politics and society in general does the same we will continue to be mired in oppositional/conflictual Empiricism, which is great for trashy reportage but not much else.

Good questions do tend to get better answers: I agree with you.

Except when it may be useful to change the voting demographic? Just a thought.

I thiink a lot of people believe the Tory party couldn't give a stuff about people's suffering, whether they caused it or not.

Agree👍

I think that's a very perceptive reading of his position. He's an intelligent, interesting and conscientious person who's achieved a lot, but he has a romantic drive that would baffle most people from a less privileged background.

Agreed entirely, got that sense from him on The Rest is Politics too. His conservatism seems to be more of an identity and heritage to him, which is unfortunately why he is in no position to be claiming the Tory party isn't harmful etc. as he isn't necessarily emblematic of your average Tory MP (at the very least had enough morals to resign from the party after BoJo came to power)

I think this is why he was coy about defining what “love of country” means to him. Deep down he knows most things British nationalism celebrates are problematic but he’s not ready to let go of his attachment to those ideals. A Jacob Rees Mogg would have answered this question way more confidently because he wholeheartedly believes in those ideals

@@estheradegoke9060your confusing patriotism with nationalism. Most people are patriotic like Rory. Nationalism is something else, most racist nation isn’t parties in EU etc are left wing, look at polices they espouse.

Without queen especially a nation identity there will be chaos. All these migrants very keen to keep there national identity while uk on some kind of self destruction mode

Despite the privialge, he has made a good round of it! And has sought to improve society as a whole!

Tories really aren’t all despicable. Tory MPs are a very iffy lot, and some are really off the scale. Tory voters are another matter. Some are unpleasant, some are passable, some led astray by media etc and others very decent (but will not end up producing a good outcome, except in limited ways).

Labour too

@@jamesjohnson2394 Best. Rebuttal. Ever.

@@jamesjohnson2394current or old Labour? Because they haven’t been in power for 13 years. The tories have ransacked this country and inflicted poison on to the most disadvantaged in our society, the two aren’t comparable

That's what happens when government becomes too large, and helps itself to too much of our money.

He’s flogging a book

Exactly lol. He’s still a Tory

He's not interested in change. He said as much. Conserving what is, because that's so great! He's like a "Make UK Great Again" kind of a guy.

Well said

@@doctorfunkshock We should be careful to discern between conservatives and fascists. They're entirely different animals. While that statement taken at face value is something a conservative could say, it has a completely different meaning today because "Make America Great Again" was and is used by fascists. Not to say I agree with conservatives, but give me Rory Stewart over, say, Donald Trump any day of the week.

I don't think that is entirely correct. For example, his probation service reforms corrected a very serious previous conservative policy mistake (made by Chris Grayling, I think; Ian Dunt discusses the Grayling cock up in detail in his recent book), and that shows he is concerned with making real changes. But I think that his deep concern is that the corruption of political discourse means that making meaningful changes much more difficult (or even impossible).

@@bladdnun3016 Not the present incarnation of government - totally fascist in all elements - hocked to corporate interests, outlawing protest, voter manipulation, seven bins kind of lying deceitfulness. Rory is obviously an outlier in the present political complexion, but he is a Tory, in my humble opinion, less than vermin, as a very famous commentator said. Rats can't help being rats - he can. He has a podcast with Alistair Campbell for goodness sake - war criminal extraordinaire, assisting him to be rehabilitated. He actually said he wants to conserve what is - he's not a progressive. The fact that he's "throughtful and reflective" doesn't alter the fact that he's been part of the most destructive party of the last thirty years. At least with Trump you know what you're getting. To me a throughtful and respectful Tory is an oxymoron.

Completely agree

Unfortunately there are many absolutists in the comment section, spewing left wing cliches about the right wing. Do you think the interview went completely over their heads?

@@alst4817Tens of thousands of people dying as a direct result of political policy being enacted is fairly fucking absolute. It’s not a debating society, it’s life and death, literally.

@@alst4817 no I don’t think it went over anyone’s heads. I’m not using this moment to paint left Vs right. I’m appreciating a moment where two people with a range of views have an intricate discussion. Parts where they disagree and parts where there is unity of thought.

Very true, but it's also worth listening to his comments on how bullied MPs are in those votes. Not really a good excuse, but interesting to hear. At least he's unique - the only tory to acknowledge how repellent tories are!

He was still one of them, knowing what they are and what type of policies they implement.

the interview brought out the best in both of them! they were both respectful of each other & there was no shouting or abuse from either of them, despite them being on the opposite sides of politics! one person they both agreed on as being someone they admired was jeremy cvorbyn!!

Generally Tories are business focused which is fair enough. Its just that Business influence (merger) in Government has gone way too far.

@@joso7228 it is the literal meaning of fascism

Let us remember that Rory openly lied on a Channel 4 News interview by claiming “80%” agreed with him but that lie was quickly revealed by the interviewer.

Catscan you mean thé tories run things into the ground

@@stevenredpath9332 literally everyone lies

Spot on

Fascist? I wish!

Sunaks torys are really very right wing, also Sunak is not as intelligent as Starmer. Let's get rid of the fans of fascism & have a compassionate, caring Labour PM

Not really fascists. More like ruthless Corporate Executives.

​@@pollytickle8346at this part I'm convinced Starmerites are Russian bots

It's true. But then the brand of Toryism that Stewart represents is not the Thatcherite / Neoliberal brand that has dominated the party for both of it's last 2 periods in power, any more than Corbyn is a Blairite. One of the many problems with our ridiculous and arcane electoral system. Rory Stewart has no business rammed together in a party with Rishi Sunak any more than Wes Streeting does with Dennis Skinner lol. As you pointed out, Thatcherite neoliberalism is a revolutionary ideology, not really a conservative one. Without our arcane and anachronistic duopoly, these people simply wouldn't wouldn't be in the same party.

(and, actually, Streeting and Sunak in a rational world probably belong in the same party as each other. Blairite/Cameronite/Osbournite/Thatcherite, whatever you want to call it, it's much of a muchness).

I see my original reply has already been deleted by the youtube censor-bot. This is really getting ridiculous these days... It's so common...

@@Muzikman127 Don't forget Starmer and Reeves. Rayner is probably the only Labour front bencher right now that is not supportive of Tory policies and she'll probably be sidelined fast if Labour do win the next election.

💯

campbell hates jeremy corbyn while rory stewart respects him!!!

For me, Alastair Campbell enjoys virtue by association…..as Rory presumably knows him well and seems to like him, then he can’t be that bad. 🤷‍♂️

alastair campbell will never be forgiven for the uk government's decision to invade iraq!!!@@hisdadjames4876

​@normankennith7919 Campbell hates corbyn because he wants Labour in government, not some left wing never gonna make any changes or run the country

Can I ask to expand on that a little? Thanks.

@@staninjapan07how many disabled people died due to how this man voted? When you can answer that question, the original poster’s point will be made clear

@@crayontom9687 I wonder whether you could have typed that number in less time than it took to ask me the question.

@@crayontom9687presumabky he would justify it as being required because austerity was required as a result of the public debt position after 2008 ? I suspect he’s wrong on that but that is a debatable economic question on which there is not necessarily a clear answer

This is a perfect example of the issue with today's politics and something Novara is trying to push against with these long 1 on 1 discussions; the constant need of people to sum up someone's entire argument into 16 words. Fast food discourse for the inane.

Alistair is a good bloke imho but I can understand he makes people angry. I disliked Corbyn because I felt he had sympathy for Brexit even though his lacklustre Remain campaign was his baby for the left. If we had Blair and Alistair they'd have eviscerated the Brexiteers.. Unlike Corbyn Alistair is still loudly criticising Brexit. If only Iraq never happened. We might still be in the EU with decent infrastructure and less inequality. A very very long spell under the Tories.

@@oceanscene22 exactly this. I really like listening to Alistair with Rory, they're just sensible and compassionate also.

The Tory party is, or should be, a broad church. Rory is to the left of the Tory party as Starmer is to the right of the Labour Party. A pretty thin difference.

@@oceanscene22 lmao deluded

Leave Campbell alone are you a tory?

Interesting! What do you think stops Tories realising this?

Exactly. No forgiveness for Rory. He’s just deluded and doesn’t realise it

Would you argue that Mao and Stalin set out with the intent to kill millions of people through their policies?

​@@GG-xd9vcdirect comparison there

Well said. There’s nothing conservative about economic neoliberalism/social and cultural Blairism.

@@dandonovan11 Thatcher was the first Blairite

Did you miss the entire interview lol

​@@TheSurrealWolfI don't think they missed it, I think that they, quite understandably, don't care what the REASONING is, because the EFFECTS were so terrible. As a result of austerity, over 150,000 people died unnecessary and avoidable, and often harrowing, painful, drawn out deaths, from starvation, neglect and others. If we add the suicides/murder suicides caused directly by the deliberate cutting of critical services, the number only grows. It doesn't matter WHY Rory and other, allegedly progressive conservatives went along to get along. The effects make the reasoning behind every vote in parliament MEANINGLESS. Do no harm. That should be the MINIMUM we expect from MPs, Ministers and leaders, and we should expect that MPs, Ministers and leaders should be more willing to leave their positions, than to agree to any policy which causes significant harm to anyone.

@@peteredwards2318 jesus christ, give it a rest

@@TheSurrealWolf give what a rest? You made a comment that implied you were missing some context, so I provided it.

@@peteredwards2318 no my comment was suggesting the OP didn't watch the interview. I didnt need a history lesson

perhaps, but I don't think learning and improving one's politics/worldview is necessarily something to be scoffed at. Perhaps he genuinely saw why he was wrong. (And, after all, when asked about both Iraq and Aghanistan, he actually gives a better account for why and how it was wrong than 90% of the uk liberal left and centre. I think that probably counts for something.)

By which I mean, I _wish_ Rory Stewarts appraisal of the western intervention of Iraq and Afghanistan was a bandwagon. But reality is that even the centre and left of the UK mainstream, the BBC journous and blairites of this world, still basically hem and haw about it. Even recently there was this BBC radio 4 series on billed as a hard-hitting retrospective of Iraq war mistakes, that was disgustingly whitewashing. For better or for worse (and it's for worse) the account that Stewart gives of Iraq and Afghanistan here is genuinely radical, and _way_ past the mainstream of British politics. To our great shame. That, then, doesn't strike me as opportunist, because his position is not the popular or expedient one to adopt. But perhaps I'm being naïve there

Absolutely. Was a really interesting interview, especially the part you mention. It really struck me that to him politics is a game and what matters is being a good chap and following the rules. This seemed apparent again when he spoke of the 19th century oratory as a golden era - it's the aesthetics rather than the substance that he admires - compared to, for example the postwar rebuilding of the country, which may not have had much Latin in its press releases, but make real progress in improving people's lives and picking up the pieces of a shattered nation. This approach of his really contrasts with Ash's politics as a struggle where policies have a real impact on people's lives (her evocation of the impact of Windrush in specific people was very powerful - something that he really seemed unable to engage with). That said. It would have been interesting to know what he would have done had he 'stuck it out and become PM by now'...

I started writing a comment like this, but you said it better. He cannot escape the priorities gifted to him by his own privilege - seems more shocked that Johnson didn't play by the Good Chap principle than the societal consequences of his own govt. Good interview tho'

A military man trained to kill, why would lives be more important than loyalty to the officer class

@@kevinwells768 That's it. Rory finds it hard to escape his privileed background in spite of extensive world travel. He is a good analyst of foreign affairs but he is still not a humanist at heart.

Going to have to disagree here. It's not about a game, it's about the fact that people behaving that way have undermined public institutions to the point that they can enact all these dreadful policies without any checks or balances. Right to protest? Functioning justice system (legal aid and the courts have been run down financially and in the Tory press)? Rights against the government (judicial review has been weakened and the Tories are always attacking human rights law)? All going down the shitter and enabling an uncaring government to have absolute power. If there isn't respect for the rules or honesty (including from the media) then things get worse. It's not protocol or people, it's the people getting shafted even more severely if there are no protocols.