This is also a great trick if you find yourself playing magic in the mid 90s and have only this creature out with 4 red mana about to empty from your pool and want to avoid mana burn
Every time answering questions like this I remember Fireball. When you cast it, you cannot determine the cost you have to pay before you choose all the targets. So choosing targets happens before determining and paying cost (which, in case of Sarpadian Simulacrum, includes its sacrificing)
Basically the same interaction also works with bloodtithe harvester. This has been useful when playing claim the firstborn and other act of treason like effects so I can gain control of the bloodtithe harvester and use it to remove itself.
Technically the answer to your question as posed is "yes but no": you can activate the ability targeting itself, but it won't deal the 4 damage because the target is illegal on resolution :)
@@brofst If Dave had actually said what you’re quoting him as saying (“can it target itself and deal 4 damage?”), I would agree with you, since that explicitly mentions both targeting (which does happen) and dealing 4 damage (which doesn’t happen). However, what he actually said is “would it be possible to activate this ability and deal 4 damage to itself?” Since he doesn’t explicitly mention targeting, I would argue that the most reasonable interpretation of “deal 4 damage to itself” would be “target itself [with the ability that deals 4 damage].”
Another real use for this is with the card Shambling Shell. It has an ability that sacrifices itself to target a creature, and it also has Dredge. For the longest time I wasn't sure if you could do such a play, but now I am confirmed in my suspicion that you can!
The order of steps for casting spells has choosing targets (601.2c) be before paying costs (601.2h). While this is an activated ability, most of the process for activating an activated ability uses the rules for casting spells (602.2b). I assume the first reply is using an outdated version of the CR as the 400s are about the different zones and 409 doesn't exist. Rules referenced: 601.2c: The player announces their choice of an appropriate object or player for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a kicker cost) or a particular mode was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. Similarly, a spell may require alternative targets only if an alternative or additional cost was chosen for it. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets they will choose before they announce those targets. In some cases, the number of targets will be defined by the spell's text. Once the number of targets the spell has is determined, that number doesn't change, even if the information used to determine the number of targets does. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that they obey the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen objects and/or players each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those objects and/or players become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.) 601.2h: The player pays the total cost. First, they pay all costs that don't involve random elements or moving objects from the library to a public zone, in any order. Then they pay all remaining costs in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can't be paid. 602.2b: The remainder of the process for activating an ability is identical to the process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2b-i. Those rules apply to activating an ability just as they apply to casting a spell. An activated ability's analog to a spell's mana cost (as referenced in rule 601.2f) is its activation cost.
